Golden Sun CRT: Taking what you can dish out (Resistances and other minor additions)

[Kalaam]

Indeed this is my headcanon, but without that it doesn't make sense. You are using your headcanon too that what we see is canon and not videogame logic because it goes you way. Plus while the existence of those deities do appear in game, that's true, summoning itself isn't addressed. And I aggree that my way of doing things would downgrade a lot of characters there and my methods probably aren't the favored ones here. It just looks or feels too...fanfictionny for me I guess. I know we're writing debates about who would win out of 2 fictionnal characters, obviously. But that method seems so overblown I can't help but roll my eyes because it seems so inconsistent with was we actually see during 90% of the game. Why would characters be impressed by a statue shoved in a wall when they send ennemies into planets ? "VG logic" ah ok... I mean it's fun and all, but I just find that a bit ...bland ? I guess? It's just so easy to justify everything like that and overblow all abilities. Sorry if I upset you.

 

[Loneliness_Gundam]

Indeed this is my headcanon, but without that it doesn't make sense. You are using your headcanon too that what we see is canon and not videogame logic because it goes you way. Plus while the existence of those deities do appear in game, that's true, summoning itself isn't addressed. And I aggree that my way of doing things would downgrade a lot of characters there and my methods probably aren't the favored ones here. It just looks or feels too...fanfictionny for me I guess. I know we're writing debates about who would win out of 2 fictionnal characters, obviously. But that method seems so overblown I can't help but roll my eyes because it seems so inconsistent with was we actually see during 90% of the game. Why would characters be impressed by a statue shoved in a wall when they send ennemies into planets ? "VG logic" ah ok... I mean it's fun and all, but I just find that a bit ...bland ? I guess? It's just so easy to justify everything like that and overblow all abilities. Sorry if I upset you.

None of the "logic" you have applied here makes any sense. Using other COMPLETELY UNRELATED verses WHICH HAVE ZERO APPLICATION HERE, claiming the attacks aren't as strong as they look with zero evidence to support your claim, accusing every single person who has powerscaled this verse of using headcanons when you openly admit to using your own...

Newsflash: that's not how powerscaling works. Unless you can provide PROOF (which the scalers for Golden Sun on this site actually HAVE done), CONCRETE PROOF OR MATH, how you feel about a verse's power does not matter. The point is to be as objective as possible and the previous scalers have provided the proof and the math. You have done neither.

 

[Kalaam]

No need to be aggressive. First, I have seen no math. I did math, I even suggested a link to it and was told it wasn't necessary. Second, as I said we have two visions of how to interpret things. You take it at face value. I try to keep it consistent with the rest of the game. None of those is inherently better than the other. We just disaggree on that, that's all.

 

[Loneliness_Gundam]

"Keeping it consistent with the rest of the game" tends to not work. As XitSign said earlier, this is a common problem for video games. Also, the sections where the protags are powered up by the Golden Sun itself are cutscenes, and not in-game battles.

 

[XitSign]

I'm not upset, but I can't disagree with you more, and this really isn't how the website works at all.

You're pulling logic from concepts and ideas from other universe and writers to justify why what you like and don't like should and shouldn't be used. Concepts and ideas from writers who had nothing to do with this universe, to say what the writers and creators of this universe did isn't real, or isn't as powerful, or is just an 'avatar'. You have very little to back yourself up here.

Meanwhile...we're just using what we can see. Iris clearly explodes in a cinamatic similar to a Supernova, eclipsing several planets and possibly a whole Solar System. And we're supposed to ignore this just because game logic eventually rules the day. That we need to solve puzzles or else the game isn't fun. That the planet can't explode or the countries be destroyed because then there's no game. That the writers just didn't realize, or didn't want, to write consiquences for the power being thrown around.

Being forced to still solve puzzles can be as simple as a character choice, Isaac not wanting to destroy things, or it being unreasonable, or possible dangerous to just go blowing everything up.

It feels like you have a predetermined idea of how power dynamics should work in a universe, that 'normal' characters can only get so far, 'gods' are automatically so powerful...I feel like you have a lot of assumptions and personal headcanons, and that just isn't how we do scaling here. Your counter offer for them to be County to Continent didn't seem to be based on anything, just what you 'feel', and completely ignores the attack that's for example clearly a supernova.

The way you choose to debate just doesn't hold a lot of water here...You rely on game mechanics, stats, numbers that mean nothing in another universe, and personal feelings about everything.

 

[Kalaam]

I'm trying to make sense of the game logic. How could Garet be able to take Iris attack, but break his arm from falling a few meters? The way summons works are not explained in game, so I try to make sense of them based on other examples. Because if they work exactly as shown it does not make sense. It creates too many inconsistencies.

Indeed that's not how it works here. It's a shame, but it's just a question of point of view. I respect that. What I don't like though is being just shout at by someone who doesn't have any idea of the amount of research I did myself on that months ago, and just assumes I know nothing because I disaggree with their version of it. As I said, both versions are equal since it's all interpretation anyway. The other guy was talking about headcanon, so then his headcanon is that Isaac is dbz character level of strong, but never uses that strength to solve problem because he doesn't want to damage a few wall. Ok. That all our own headcanons. No need to get aggressive to others. I'll let you do you thing, I'm happy I could help a bit at least.

 

[Loneliness_Gundam]

Look, Kallam, I'm sorry I yelled at you. The research you did wasn't provided so I assumed you hadn't done any. And yes, video games often fail to use logic properly, and it does create a ton of inconsistencies and confusion. XitSign even told me over another connection we have not to step in and I didn't listen.

 

[XitSign]

The flipside is also a great arguement. If a character is so weak they can break their arm from falling a few meters, how did they tank a dragon body slamming them from orbit, or an energy blast over several countries, or a flurry of energy attacks greater than that of a supernova? How did they even survive one semi-big rock being thrown at them?

The differance between our lines or logic is...you're pulling a lot of excuses from logic and material that has nothing to do with what we're working on, and making up a lot of theories about how this can all be explained away. And we just accept that writers sometimes don't account for how powerful the things they write are.

Not wanting to blow things up willy nilly when the only thing stoping you is a puzzle but being more willing to bust out the power when under attack seems like the more reasonable way to take this situation.

Otherwise, we'll be playhing the 'why didn't this character do this?' game all day. And we can do it for nearly each and every universe out there.

 

[Kalaam]

It's just a matter of point of view. I mainly theorize outside of the svbattles stuff, to make the world as consistent as possible. That's my way of doing it. Here you're supposed to take what the game/media gives you and take it as much as possible a it is handed over. I was not aware of that and I apologize. If you are curious, here are part of the calculations I had done: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z_bxVExO9BHKhzKUNIOrR9S12_IsJBdMkVIPGUbFKZU/edit?usp=sharing

 

[XitSign]

From my point of view, then, I think your attempts to be 'consistent' are really...inconsistent. But we've done this dance, it's clogging up this CRT, and it's not even what this CRT is for.

I do appricate that you tried doing the math, but stats are really impractical, next to useless, for any sort of debate. Every universe uses differant stats and number rules, so Isaac's numbers in Golden Sun mean almost nothing to compare it to anything other than what's in Golden Sun. A lot of this doesn't seem to mean much without refrences for what the numbers REALLY mean.

The marble statue actually is interesting, I don't think anyone on the site has ever actually used that before, and the GS crew could use lifting feat stats to compare to.

 

[Kalaam]

I'm glad that example will be of use.

 

[XitSign]

It'll be something I'd like to attempt to get approved here.

Clearly, and with all honestly no disrespect, I don't agree with a lot of the ways you attempt to scale. BUT for what it's worth, that marble pillar calculation actually seems really interesting, something we've never throught of before, and can fill out something we've been missing.

 

[Kalaam]

I do hope it will help your work.

 

[XitSign]

I do genuinely hope so as well.

I apologize to the thread for this getting into a huge tangent. Back on topic however, we do have a todo list:

-Tabber for Gear, possibly also Djinn exclusive abilities

-Update Djinn lists

-Update descriptions for Psynergy, Djinn, and touch up things like Range

-Look into Kalaam's pillar calculation, possibly put it into a blog

-General cleanup. Some minor abilities were copy and pasted because it was easy, but some Adepts actually don't have one or two abilities available and they should be removed

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure what went on here, and I know there appears to be some derailment but I'm in agreement with Xit Sign here.

 

[Theglassman12]

while this is up, what justifies the bosses resisting virtually anything besides game mechanics?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Saturos and the others don't really resist anything besides Fire based attacks; which it's canon in lore to resist your own element. But bosses resisting statuses is game mechanics yes.

 

[XitSign]

The debate shifted mainly to whether or not larger feats should be used or if they should even be taken seriously, a lot of conflict about what you should and should not assume.

As Medeus said, at least the lore that you resist your own natural element best. Even without training, our bad guys should resist everything Mars related.

 

[Theglassman12]

Honestly we should give a lot more of an explanation for each power and resistances as opposed to listing it there.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I honestly think the complaints about the stats were way off, no offence to him however. But it seemed to be the typical naive debater arguments such as unawareness to the whole Destructive capacity Vs Attack Potency, or status as a God = God Tier fallacy, as well as using PIS to argue against all of these blatant feats that are literally everywhere. And the scaling chain was already mentioned above.

So we should go back to the main topic at hand based on Xit's interpretation.

 

[XitSign]

A LOT of the original power lists were apparently copy and pasted a long time ago. So they definitely have needed updates on explanations.

However, at least in the Powers and Abilities section, we might want to limit trying to explain a lot of them. Golden Sun characters have so many abilities, it's going to become a disorganized wall of text really quickly. I think a majority of it should be updates to the Notable Attacks section, with better descriptions down there.

This was a while ago, but I remember a thread complaining about Powers and Ability sections becoming walls of unnecessary fluff due to too many descriptions in the list, I'd rather avoid the GS pages going that route if possible.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I was trying to explain the notable techniques without using game mechanics such as mentioning stats or by specific percentages and number of points. Since we don't do that here, I definitely agree that tabbers to separate base abilities and with Djinns is a start.

 

[XitSign]

Having the tabbers will also make adding descriptions a bit more manageable and clean too. I understand Mind Control is probably as simple as (Via Mold), but we start doing that for every ability in the list and it quickly gets out of hand, becomes hard to read.

But breaking up the power list will make it look so much cleaner, I'll be a lot more happy personally doing it that way. That is just me, and I understand foregoing what looks 'neat' in favor of being more thorough if what we do doesn't cut it.

 

[TartaChocholate]

So, how about this order of tabs?

| Innate | Djinn Set | Djinn Abilities | Summons | Equipment |

-Innate: The abilities the character naturally has in his regular class and displayed in the story direcly.

-Djinn Set: Abilities obtained by changing classes via Djinn.

-Djinn Set: Abilities you can use by unleashing Djinn

-Summons: Self-explanatory

-Equipment: Self-explanatory

Just to give an idea, perhaps Djinn set could be sub-divided into 2 element classes, 3 element classes (Samurai, Ninja, etc) and special ones (item ones). Djinn Abilities could be sub-divided by element and Summons in regular summons and tablet summons? Dunno, if it's necessary to avoid too much text at once.

 

[Theglassman12]

I'll separate the techniques into different tabs for the time being to make it more organized.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good

 

[XitSign]

I like the idea too, it'll take some work breaking it up and cleaning it up, we should probably make an example blog

 

[Kalaam]

About additions, I think Isaac's intelligence should be raised to gifted (or at least adding a note). Isaac does solves complex puzzles and enigma, some of them being way more complex that the ones Link (other character classified as "gifted") solves. He also seem to be doing well in academics, since Psynergy and Alchemy is taugth to him and he went from no powers to capable adept in 3 years, learning even more as he travelled.

I think a note about his coordination/dexterity could be interresting too. He does run at fullspeed without any issue on floating logs, almost no speedloss on tight ropes and manages effortlessly to cross a lake using a wood plank by making it spin under his feet, without prior training. He also jumps on narrow and slippery platforms without issues. (Elemental Star section)

About his Strength, it's probably comparable to OoT or Twilight Princess' Link (without taking djinns into account) seeing how he pushes stone statues, blocks, logs etc without much effort.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree that plenty of characters should have intelligence upgrades; Above average was simply a place holder. But Isaac and Ivan for example are both clearly more intelligent than simply above Average. Same with characters like Felix, Sheba, and Matthew.

 

[TartaChocholate]

One thing I've been thinking... Puzzles and such in adventure games are simplified for the sake of gameplay and fun for the player themselves. In-universe, the riddles and traps guarding the ancient and dangerous secrets are described or at least implied to be incredibly complex and obtuse.

 

[XitSign]

Honestly, the whole original gang probably deserves it.

Garet gets teased about being a fool, but he, Jenna, and Isaac were all students under Kraden. Add the real world experience of these adventures with the book smarts they got in Vale to learn about Psynergy, history, and their other academics and I think they're just as deserving.

Mia is one of the only characters with confirmed formal training being raised by the Mercury clan, and she held down the healer AND guardian duties for her home and the lighthouse, especially after Alex ducked out on her to go be a bad guy. Mia even has two apprentices of her own.

And Pier's is over a 100 years old, handled his sailor job during that time, and is just as combat ready when he joins up with the gang, he's got a wealth of experience.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I might as well at Gifted to all their intelligence's. Plus, Karst and Agaito were also excellent strategists as they figured out the root of Saturos and Menardi's downfalls (It's combination of 4 on 2 and that whole 4 elements balancing each other out Vs two fire adepts. Strategy involved Garet taking the hits while Mia struck from the back row) And after separating the two main threats, they managed to defeat Isaac and Ivan with some difficulty.

 

[XitSign]

If I'm remembering the situation, the trap was only aiming for Mia, getting Garet too was a lucky break.

And they also commented that beating Isaac and Ivan on their own was also somewhat a stroke of luck on their part, and they were surprised it actually went in their favor.

None of that a knock against Karst and Agaito's intelligence, they clearly had a plan for an ambush, just makes me realize they were on a REALLY fine line of getting taken out right then and there had luck gone even slightly the other way. Wonder how much the plot changes with them missing their chance at the Jupiter Lighthouse. (With Alex around...probably not much. It's Alex.)

 

[TartaChocholate]

IIRC Agatio also figured out Alex was using him and Karst, but simply went along with because it aligned with his own goals as well. If I am not mistaken he wasn't even surprised when it was brought up, his reaction was along the lines of "Oh, I knew it, I just didn't care"

Garet isn't dumb to be fair, that's mostly a fandom take on him (like Felix being your standoffish cool guy or Jenna being an Asuka Soryu like Tsundere), he can be a tad impulsive at moments and that's it, but he isn't really dense or ignorant, and can follow Kraden's explanations without issue. And due to Isaac's silent protagonist role, he actually is the one explaining things to the player in his dialogue in Sol Sanctum.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alex is clearly the smartest of the bunch, that's why I have him rated as Genius and with plenty of justifications.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Yeah, the only thing that stopped Alex's plans was literal divine intervention. Given the Wise One stayed off the game for the most part, suddenly him pulling some strings behind the scenes is something Alex understandably had no way of countering. And that's not getting into the heavy implications of his machinations in Tuaparang.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Updated the intelligence's.