Golden Age Superman Revision

[Firestorm808]

Currently, the profile has the following:

Low Multiverse level (Repeatedly stalemated Pre-Crisis Superma)

Their first fight happens in Justice League of America Vol 1 #74 September 1969. In this issue, Silver Age Superman fights a mind-controlled Golden Age Superma . The narration and dialogue describe them as on par with eachother and fighting to a stand-still. This issue takes place before many of Silver Age Superman's Universal feats.

The profile says that these stalemates happened repeatedly after their initial encounter, but others are telling me that Golden Age Superman is shown to be much weaker than the Silver Age Superman in later confrontations. This would explain how Golden Age Superman is still comparable to Post-Crisis later on. I would appreciate help in determining which is true.

 

[SuperAPM]

The only thing I can recollect was in Crisis on Infinite Earths #7 https://***************.to/Comic/Crisis-on-Infinite-Earths-1985/Issue-7?id=39381#1 when all the heroes went into the Anti Matter Universe, Golden Age Supe's seems to be more affected by the environment than his Silver Age counterpart https://2.bp.blogspot.com/7btVnINjx...ks_ygrHYYEzgDo6KQ5JnpU4przBNoRec-9LBcA4=s1600 At least that's what the scene seems to suggest.

 

[Firestorm808]

Made a correction of who was mind-controlled.

 

[Firestorm808]

DC Comics Presents Annual Vol 1 #3 1984

Silver Age Superman traded blows with Dr. Sivana who had had the power of SHAZAM.

Sivana had stomped Golden Age Superman beforehand. Golden Age Superman is described as old with waning power compared to Silver Age Superman.

 

[SuperAPM]

Yeah, it does seem that age is a good explanation for GA's waning power. Weird considering that a lot of versions of Supe's seem to get stronger with age (likeKingdom Come Superman for instance)

 

[Jared1111]

My explanation is, like Super said, that GA just got weaker over time, and by the time Infinite Crisis happened he was near Post-Crisis levels. So in his earlier stories he was at least on par with PC Supes but as time went on his powers waned (that fight with Sivana happened 15 years later) and he grew weaker.

That being said, I still think that Golden Age would still be at least comparable to PC Supes as he did sucker punch him out in COIE 12

 

[NinganO4]

Alright, so we are clearly looking for consistency in terms of how the two are portrayed relative to each other. Thankfully this shouldn't be too hard given the few amount of appearances Kal-L has during the silver and Bronze Age.

First of all there's the Stalemate, which has already been referenced above.

JLA vol 1 issue 91, we see them being portrayed as around each other. Both get hit by Teppy, and are knocked out for about as long. Meaning the attack damaged both about as much.

Then in superman family issue 186-187 Both are outright stated as equal. There's as well the fact that when they merged together they would have double strength of Earth one superman.

Now onto when Kal-L had aged into an old man. There are several statements saying he's weaker than his younger counterpart, like this one from Kal-L himself. However they seem to still be comparable in terms of power. With Kal-L taking beams from luthor that have stalemated Earth one superman in the past during DC Comics Presents Vol 1 Annual 1, and the above mentioned Knock out punch in COIE 12.

Even in the case of Captain Sivana, it wasn't like Kal-L just got one shot. He held his own temporarily before getting overpowered and Sivana even states he's incapable of Killing him.

So overall I would say he's consistently depicted as equal to superman in his younger years, and in the near COIE age he was weaker but comparable. Hope this helps.

 

[Firestorm808]

Thanks for your input. I'll start documenting them.

 

[SuperAPM]

Along with his 2-C key, which basically covers his appearance in the Silver Age when he was comparable to his SA counterpart, there's also his other two keys, High 8-C and 4-C, which covers his Golden Age appearances from his early career to later on when he started to become more powerful repsectively. Everything seems in order, but I have reason to believe that he was much more powerful than High 8-C during his earlier career. Feats include:

Breaking a building over a plane: https://i.imgur.com/unTpPlK.jpg

Throwing one boulder into another hard enough to shatter both: https://i.imgur.com/tVeYCEK.jpg

Throwing a baseball around the world: https://i.imgur.com/bKnur5h.jpg

Throwing a skyscraper around the world: https://imgur.com/a/b8HSg

Chucking a UFO outta the Solar System: https://imgur.com/a/z7dBE

Casually lifting 3000 Tons: https://i.imgur.com/P0ProKo.jpg

Squishing metal hard enough to start Fusion: https://i.imgur.com/Y8BAWck.jpg

Destroying a Meteor that would have destroyed half of Metropolis: https://imgur.com/a/hqA1U There's also mention of the blast rocking the Earth and Sky

Carrying a Mountain: https://imgur.com/a/2mjOnIs

Spliting Mountains apart: https://imgur.com/a/YimCH https://imgur.com/a/GSzeZ

Pulling Islands together: https://i.imgur.com/Xl6P8fX.jpg

Shaking an Island: https://i.imgur.com/iwsCSSi.jpg


Supporting feats for his 4-C key include:

Using a Rocketship runway to slingshot a Moon at high velocity: https://imgur.com/a/HIEmC3h

Destroying Earth's replica with an Asteroid: https://imgur.com/a/5bKWF

And slamming two moons together with enough force to turn them into a Star, then moving a planet into said Stars orbit: https://i.imgur.com/UoRDvgM.jpg


Let me know what you think Firestorm808

 

[Firestorm808]

@NinganO4

Some of your image links are broken.

@SuperAPM

I'll take a look.

 

[Firestorm808]

Are there any significant feats for Kal-L in the Post-Crisis era to support his Solar System level rating other than fighting Post-Crisis Superman?

 

[NinganO4]

@Firestorm808

Which ones? They all work fine for me.

 

[Firestorm808]

@NinganO4

Huh... Maybe the site was on the fritz. It's working now.

Anyway, they've been documented. Thank you.

 

[SuperAPM]

Afraid I can't find any feats for Kal-L Post Crisis other than "Our clash has shattered the boundries of space and time" or whatever, which is supposed to be an outlier anyway.

 

[Firestorm808]

Reading the entire storyline, their space time manipulation allowed tham to experience the other's life.

 

[SuperAPM]

Regardless of the feats validity I am still unable to find any feats within the Tier 4 range for Kal-L Post-COIE. Do you know which comics he appeared in during the time period other than Infinite Crisis or Blackest Night?

 

[NinganO4]

Well there's him taking on Doomsday along with post crisis superma in infinite crisis issue 7

And also during Convergence Action comics issue 2, he is hits Communist Wonder Woman so hard she starts to bleed who took blows from Powergirl.

Also here's some Golden age feats for Kal-L.

Caught up with light that reflected off earth a thousand years ago. Superman Vol 1 #57

Travels to light that reflected off earth thousands of years ago and back Superman Vol 1 #53

Flies to the edge of the solar system from earth, then to the sun and back in five seconds without going at top speed. Superman vol 1 #65

Calculated a math problem with a mere glance that a super computer takes ten minutes to calculate and is harder than diamonds. Superman vol 1 #65

No sells millions of volts and Produces over a million decibels with his voice. Superman vol 1 #65

Goes back in time by speeding up Superman Vol 1 #92

Superman flies all across time And gets autographs from Famous people. Superman Vol 1 #48

Superman runs though time and back Action comics Vol 1 #148

Superman whirls himself back in time, and is referenced as "Faster than time itself". Superman Vol 1 #89

 

[SuperAPM]

Fighting Doomsday and Soviet Wondie are pretty good, but I think Firestorm wants more concrete feats rather than simple scaling. Which obviously in an ideal world would be easier to come by but I think scaling's the best we're gonna get.

 

[NinganO4]

I can try to find Concrete feats, but I'm doubtful he has any 4-B ones.

 

[SuperAPM]

Thay's my thoughts as well tbh

 

[Firestorm808]

Any notable scaling or feats is fine with me.

 

[SuperAPM]

Ok, then I guess I could try finding some fight scenes of his during Post Crisis if I can.

So far we have him fighting Post Crisis Superman, Red Son Wonder Woman, and Doomsday, and in each he seemed to hold up to all combatants pretty well.

 

[SuperAPM]

There's something about Power Girl that's given me an idea. I'm probably misremembering this, but didn't Infinite Crisis establish that she was a direct survivor of CoIE and therefore the exact same person rather than just a Post Crisis recreation like everyone else? At least that's what her regaining all her Pre Crisis memories from GA Supe's seemed to suggest.

Is this correct Firestorm808?

 

[Firestorm808]

Yes. She is one of the people who were carried over.

 

[SuperAPM]

In that case it might explain why GA Supe's power level dropped when transistioning from Pre to Post Crisis. Power Girl is still a Pre-Crisis character but after CoIE she only became comparable to Post Crisis Kryptonians. So, it stands to reason that characters who transistioned from CoIE into Post Crisis experience a reduction in PL for unknown reasons. At least that's the case for Kryptonians. Although wasn't Harbinger another CoIE's survivor?

The only anomaly in this regard is Superboy Prime, although perhaps he actually was 2-C during Pre-Crisis and simply had a less drastic reduction of power to Low 2-C when transistioning (pure speculation of course)

 

[Jared1111]

Maybe all the wankers were right and Post-Crisis really is Universe+ level.

... naaaaah