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Goku vs. Broly
- Thread starter SuperKamiNappa
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Here's the thing: Broly's power is still new. He's strong, but he hasn't adapted to is yet, nor has he managed to utilize it in full capacity. Meaning, he's not controlled, nor skilled in his SSJ form (Let alone FP).
U.I Goku's basically both amazing Power, Speed, Dodge, Intellect, Stamina, Agility, and Skill combined into 1 single genius Martial Artist, who's also reached the realm of the Gods.
Broly can't beat that. I'm sorry, but it's true. Goku and Jiren also have FAR more feats than Broly. Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus, while Goku and Jiren ARE stronger than Beerus.
If Broly trains with Goku a little more, and if he can control his power, then yeah, he could be able to defeat U.I Goku. Hell, SSJ2 Broly (Not even FP) might even 1 shot U.I Goku to near death, and that's not even CONTROLLED SSJ2 Broly.
But, as it stands rn, nah b. U.I Goku claps until Broly either controls/masters both his power, as well as his martial prowess (Which will give him a even greater boost in literally all his stats), or turns into an SSJ2.
U.I Goku's basically both amazing Power, Speed, Dodge, Intellect, Stamina, Agility, and Skill combined into 1 single genius Martial Artist, who's also reached the realm of the Gods.
Broly can't beat that. I'm sorry, but it's true. Goku and Jiren also have FAR more feats than Broly. Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus, while Goku and Jiren ARE stronger than Beerus.
If Broly trains with Goku a little more, and if he can control his power, then yeah, he could be able to defeat U.I Goku. Hell, SSJ2 Broly (Not even FP) might even 1 shot U.I Goku to near death, and that's not even CONTROLLED SSJ2 Broly.
But, as it stands rn, nah b. U.I Goku claps until Broly either controls/masters both his power, as well as his martial prowess (Which will give him a even greater boost in literally all his stats), or turns into an SSJ2.
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My take on Goku saying he would teach Broly some things was more along the lines of techniques. Stuff like Kaioken or Instant Transmission. Since Broly was skilled enough to copy Paralysis from Goku after a few seconds.
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That's silly because not even Gogeta SSJB was able to put down Broly until his Kamehameha, so MUI Goku doing better is just a reach. And being a better fighter or having better control of your power isn't an argument at all, cause in the end, power triumphs over all of that. Jiren LB and MUI are above Beerus, but by how much is unknown, if FP Jiren was still going toe to toe with Omen Goku who is said to be int he state of the destroyers then FP Jiren is destroyer level, if not higher. Broly is alredy => Beerus. Jiren FP still held his own against MUI at the start of episode 130.AntorusTheBurningThrone said:
How many times has someone been stronger then Broly in this movie but he caught up, MUI and Jiren aren't any different at all
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Dude, do you not know the pure difference between Blue and U.I? Also, it's U.I, not MUI.
It was purely stated in many scans that U.I Omen 3 Goku was possibly above Beerus' level. Something that can be PROVEN since he was handling an Episode 129 Jiren, who was stronger than his Episodes 122-127 self, who was stronger than his Episode 110 self, who was stated to be stronger than his own GoD (Something FP Broly was stated to be, lul).
You can't really say that about Broly. Sure, Broly in SSJ demolished 2 SSB's, as well as Golden Freeza without care, but Jiren could do that as well without much care.
Even when they fused into Gogeta, there aren't many feats to suggest that they're above U.I Goku. Oh wow, they made a dimensional feat. Okay? Goku and Jiren produced out of this dimension speeds (And this was before Goku completed U.I, btw), and Buuhan was about to collapse the Universe by using towering different dimensions over it.
It's not really that big a feat.
I can't really see Broly tangling U.I Goku, at least not just yet. I could see SSJ2 Broly handling him, or maybe a skilled SSJ Broly (Regular SSJ), but that's just it. Broly's still a new guy. He needs time to grow. Jiren was just on another league. I don't doubt that Broly can still be stronger than Jiren, in fact Broly could just no-diff Jiren (As well as U.I Goku) if he actually learned how to fight skillfully, but that's just it. He doesn't. Not yet.
"How many times has someone been stronger then Broly in this movie but he caught up, MUI and Jiren aren't any different at all"
He never really caught up, though? Broly only had 2 forms in the beginning. Base and Ikari (Which is basically Oozaru in his regular saiyan form).
Now, let's talk about this rq. Broly's only ever fought in battle simulations, right? He's never actually had a real fight before. Jiren, however, has. Same with both Goku and Vegeta. U.I maximizes ones traits to the brink, while also giving Goku a HUGE boost in both Power, Speed, and shit as well. It's basically another form that gives the person U.I in the process.
But i'm rambling there. Now, let's assume that Broly's Base equates to about SSJ3 in terms of power, since it's stronger than SSJ, and made Vegeta say **** it, and go God mode on his ass. However, that's where it peaks. Broly couldn't touch Vegeta, and Vegeta just no diff'd his ass, right?
Then, Broly went Ikari. And that basically caps out to below Blue level. It's stronger than God, yeah. But that's it. Even Freeza was worried that Broly might lose. He didn't have SSJ or anything. So, it's not like he would just adapt or anything like that.
Then, Freeza killed Paragus, which made Broly go SSJ. Sure, Broly got a boost, but he was also basically insane. He was low-key not skilled in any of this, and you can see it because of how much he flails around and shit. This is something i'm sure Jiren and U.I Goku could handle. Similar thing with his FP Form, but with a little more difficulty.
If Broly can find a way to learn more about his power, and maybe even expand beyond it without going insane, while also having techniques in terms of prowess, then he can scale to Jiren and U.I Goku, since Broly was also giving Gogeta a rough time, even when he wasn't skilled/controlled.
It was purely stated in many scans that U.I Omen 3 Goku was possibly above Beerus' level. Something that can be PROVEN since he was handling an Episode 129 Jiren, who was stronger than his Episodes 122-127 self, who was stronger than his Episode 110 self, who was stated to be stronger than his own GoD (Something FP Broly was stated to be, lul).
You can't really say that about Broly. Sure, Broly in SSJ demolished 2 SSB's, as well as Golden Freeza without care, but Jiren could do that as well without much care.
Even when they fused into Gogeta, there aren't many feats to suggest that they're above U.I Goku. Oh wow, they made a dimensional feat. Okay? Goku and Jiren produced out of this dimension speeds (And this was before Goku completed U.I, btw), and Buuhan was about to collapse the Universe by using towering different dimensions over it.
It's not really that big a feat.
I can't really see Broly tangling U.I Goku, at least not just yet. I could see SSJ2 Broly handling him, or maybe a skilled SSJ Broly (Regular SSJ), but that's just it. Broly's still a new guy. He needs time to grow. Jiren was just on another league. I don't doubt that Broly can still be stronger than Jiren, in fact Broly could just no-diff Jiren (As well as U.I Goku) if he actually learned how to fight skillfully, but that's just it. He doesn't. Not yet.
"How many times has someone been stronger then Broly in this movie but he caught up, MUI and Jiren aren't any different at all"
He never really caught up, though? Broly only had 2 forms in the beginning. Base and Ikari (Which is basically Oozaru in his regular saiyan form).
Now, let's talk about this rq. Broly's only ever fought in battle simulations, right? He's never actually had a real fight before. Jiren, however, has. Same with both Goku and Vegeta. U.I maximizes ones traits to the brink, while also giving Goku a HUGE boost in both Power, Speed, and shit as well. It's basically another form that gives the person U.I in the process.
But i'm rambling there. Now, let's assume that Broly's Base equates to about SSJ3 in terms of power, since it's stronger than SSJ, and made Vegeta say **** it, and go God mode on his ass. However, that's where it peaks. Broly couldn't touch Vegeta, and Vegeta just no diff'd his ass, right?
Then, Broly went Ikari. And that basically caps out to below Blue level. It's stronger than God, yeah. But that's it. Even Freeza was worried that Broly might lose. He didn't have SSJ or anything. So, it's not like he would just adapt or anything like that.
Then, Freeza killed Paragus, which made Broly go SSJ. Sure, Broly got a boost, but he was also basically insane. He was low-key not skilled in any of this, and you can see it because of how much he flails around and shit. This is something i'm sure Jiren and U.I Goku could handle. Similar thing with his FP Form, but with a little more difficulty.
If Broly can find a way to learn more about his power, and maybe even expand beyond it without going insane, while also having techniques in terms of prowess, then he can scale to Jiren and U.I Goku, since Broly was also giving Gogeta a rough time, even when he wasn't skilled/controlled.
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You can invert them since UI is not as strong as people believe it is, Gogeta Blue should be way more powerful due to the fusion formula and them being post TOP, i.e Broly has the feats and statements and UI has mostly headcanon that its more powerful than Gogeta and BrolyJackJoyce said:
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Well, I'm gonna say that gogeta really didn't have a problem at all vs broly. But, one thing to take into account is how massive fusion boost is. Gogeta in his base being stronger than ssb is already outstanding. And the gap between base and ssgss is just ridiculous. If broly did indeed force gogeta into blue than that is an impressive feat. Although, i see no reason why MUI goku from the ToP would have an AP advantage over broly. At most you can argue that UI Omen is dozens of times stronger than SSBKKx20, and UI is not overwhelmingly more powerful than UI omen, but it is significant. Heck, if you lowball and downplay every single variable and multiplier fro gogeta it still is a ridiculous amount.
Downplay gogeta to just ssb in base. Then give him the official ssj multipliers from the daizenshuu. Ssj3 gogeta is already 400x a ssb goku. Give ssg the lowest multiplier possible, 2x and its already 800x ssb. And lowball ssgss to 10x instead of the 50x that is likely. And you got an insanely lowballed gogeta being 8,000x stronger than ssb goku, 40,000x if we go by the 50x ssg multiplier, and thats a current ssb goku, not ToP goku who is weaker than this one. Broly does indeed scale to gogeta blue from not being able to get one shotted. So broly is definitely thousands of times stronger than a current SSB goku im his Lssj form.
What confuses me is the amount of overrating UI gets. Did i miss something? Was UI already stated to be tens of thousands of times stronger than blue? UI omen only allows goku to not get one shotted and fight on par with jiren, and UI is enough to overpower his non LB self. Lets not forget that by the time of his power up in 127, goku and vegeta were in a level where they can resist not getting one shotted by jiren.
Downplay gogeta to just ssb in base. Then give him the official ssj multipliers from the daizenshuu. Ssj3 gogeta is already 400x a ssb goku. Give ssg the lowest multiplier possible, 2x and its already 800x ssb. And lowball ssgss to 10x instead of the 50x that is likely. And you got an insanely lowballed gogeta being 8,000x stronger than ssb goku, 40,000x if we go by the 50x ssg multiplier, and thats a current ssb goku, not ToP goku who is weaker than this one. Broly does indeed scale to gogeta blue from not being able to get one shotted. So broly is definitely thousands of times stronger than a current SSB goku im his Lssj form.
What confuses me is the amount of overrating UI gets. Did i miss something? Was UI already stated to be tens of thousands of times stronger than blue? UI omen only allows goku to not get one shotted and fight on par with jiren, and UI is enough to overpower his non LB self. Lets not forget that by the time of his power up in 127, goku and vegeta were in a level where they can resist not getting one shotted by jiren.
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It's accepted that the UIO multiplier is at least 40x. Broly Goku is akin to ToP Goku so if we just say that they are equal then UIO Post-ToP Goku would be at least 40x SSB (so about the same SS Broly at a minimum).
With that we can already basically confirm that UIO Goku > SS Broly due to UIO Goku basically being at his peak skill and same power as Broly. Broly COULD evolve over time but UIO Goku also has reactive evolution and grows as he masters it.
UIO gradually grows stronger the more that it is mastered. This is well known but we have no real way to tell how much greater it is. We also know that MUI is essentially transcendent to UIO but we don't know how much greater it is.
Overall we can ascertain that UIO Goku vs SS Broly would be an absolute stomp but we can not ascertain how well MUI Goku would fair against FPSS Broly due to lacking any figures for comparison. At best we have a statement from a magazine claiming that UIO Goku was stronger than Beerus and that Goku (at the end of the film/novel) claims that Broly is 'probably' stronger than Beerus. If both statements were true then MUI Goku >>> FPSS Broly.
However due to the lack of validity for the UIO statement and the question of how Goku would even know Beerus's full strength kinda throws this out of the window.
TL;DR
UIO = At Least 40x
Post-ToP just about equals DBS: B
UIO Goku = 40x Post-ToP SSB = SS Broly (40-50x multiplier)
UIO Goku >> SS Broly (due to it being Goku's full mastery of martial arts combined with reactive evolution)
MUI Goku ???? FPSS Broly
With that we can already basically confirm that UIO Goku > SS Broly due to UIO Goku basically being at his peak skill and same power as Broly. Broly COULD evolve over time but UIO Goku also has reactive evolution and grows as he masters it.
UIO gradually grows stronger the more that it is mastered. This is well known but we have no real way to tell how much greater it is. We also know that MUI is essentially transcendent to UIO but we don't know how much greater it is.
Overall we can ascertain that UIO Goku vs SS Broly would be an absolute stomp but we can not ascertain how well MUI Goku would fair against FPSS Broly due to lacking any figures for comparison. At best we have a statement from a magazine claiming that UIO Goku was stronger than Beerus and that Goku (at the end of the film/novel) claims that Broly is 'probably' stronger than Beerus. If both statements were true then MUI Goku >>> FPSS Broly.
However due to the lack of validity for the UIO statement and the question of how Goku would even know Beerus's full strength kinda throws this out of the window.
TL;DR
UIO = At Least 40x
Post-ToP just about equals DBS: B
UIO Goku = 40x Post-ToP SSB = SS Broly (40-50x multiplier)
UIO Goku >> SS Broly (due to it being Goku's full mastery of martial arts combined with reactive evolution)
MUI Goku ???? FPSS Broly
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Goku did imply he was near UIO 3rd when he talked to Broly at the end of the movie ... Speficially stating he was nearing his peak (Which at the time was UIO 3rd and MUI since those are the highest he's ever been) ... Would this help determining where Broly is at (Super Saiyan + Full Power Super Saiyan) ?
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You also have to remember, Broly's first real fight was against Goku and Vegeta. Base/SSG Goku was able to play with Broly with pure technique until he got stronger. MUI would finesse Broly with ease, especially with the constant improvement.
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I still don't think it should be via pure AP if SSB Goku is already near UIO 3rd Goku from the Tournament of Power when Broly Movie started .
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But but did Akira take into consideration the anime idea of power ?
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Antorus and cryo themayo i respect both of you're opinion but you guys have to remember one thing that if Broly gets at full power with Goku Broly learn when he fights and when he gets stronger but it would be cool seeing them at their full power.
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Goku there is a reason he couldn't go UI and that was because of plot
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Nah checked Voted Count?
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well guess that going Switch to Voted Goku now.
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Goku. At full power, Ultra Instinct is quite a bit stronger than Jiren, who was deffinatively stated to be stronger han Beerus, while Broly was said to be "possibly" stronger than Beerus.
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Jiren was never stated to be stronger than Beerus.
Stronger than Belmond but Belmont is weaker than Beerus.
Stronger than Belmond but Belmont is weaker than Beerus.
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Whis never said Belmont or Beerus had an arm wrestling match.
In the manga which is the official canon, Beerus only lost to Quitella.
There is no confirmed arm wrestling match between the clown and the cat. So no you are lying by saying Whis implied Belmont is above Beerus. Especially in the battle royal of Gods Belmont couldn't do shit to Beerus.
In the manga which is the official canon, Beerus only lost to Quitella.
There is no confirmed arm wrestling match between the clown and the cat. So no you are lying by saying Whis implied Belmont is above Beerus. Especially in the battle royal of Gods Belmont couldn't do shit to Beerus.
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Really doubt MUI Goku is >SS Gogeta, or even base, so Broly wins.
By the way, Beerus was never confirmed weaker than Jiren in-canon, scans like those are pretty irreliable.
Whis saying "Power comparable or greater than a GoD's" level should also take into consideration his full strength(barring hidden power).
By the way, Beerus was never confirmed weaker than Jiren in-canon, scans like those are pretty irreliable.
Whis saying "Power comparable or greater than a GoD's" level should also take into consideration his full strength(barring hidden power).
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Whis said that there was a mortal in a universe that was stronger than that universes' God of Destruction and that that GoD was stronger than Beerus. Later during the first fight with Jiren, Whis states that that mortal is Jiren.
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Broly FRA
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Voting Inconclusive
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dafuq how what the hell those poeple voted Goku won,t broly will win like that.
Because Broken Rules This Thread :V
Because Broken Rules This Thread :V
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Toei are natural born stuff upsInfiniteBlack123 said:
They tried to push Jiren as strong as he was yet completely had to retcon it in episode 129
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For the record, Dragon Ball doesn't even have an official canon
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For all we know the movie could be manga canon
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