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Goku vs. Broly

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  • Magazine: Stated Ikari, Super Saiyan and Broly as the Strongest Enemy Goku has ever fought. Goku stated this in the magazine, with a image of him getting bodied by Ikari... Letting the readers know it's Ikari he was referring to. Goku also calls him the strongest twice in the magazines. Remember we assumed Beerus as UIO 3rd Level / Ultra Instinct Goku due to Magazines as well.
  • Also... Goku when he went SSB he broke his limits as well... Many people don't even acknowledge that as there was no way he could've transformed into SSB in the condition he was in. So, if he was already borderline UIO 3rd Level during the time before the Fight, and then he broke his limits turing SSB
  • Trailers: Both the Trailers for the intro of Gogeta and Broly during their first appearance in the trailers stated them to be the Mightiest Warriors in Existence . This was stated of their Base, Super Saiyan, and higher forms. This is repeated in Dragon Ball Fighterz, when Broly is only shown as a Super Saiyan.
  • Novel: Frieza thought he was the strongest in existence when he could sense clearly Jiren's power and is the only real comparison besides if one were to use heavy headcanon and implications never implied in DBS
  • Movie: Goku stated at the end of his fight he was nearing his peak before he fought Broly, knowing either the power that UIO 3rd or MUI showed wasn't his peak as stated by Vegeta in the end of DBS.... Meaning he's likely almost on par with either of those, to a Unknown extent, but still called Broly far stronger.
 
"Mightiest Warriors in Existence" is obviously a hyperbole unless you think they're above Grand Priest now. Also it never even says they're "the mightiest warriors in existence". Just a vague "mightiest vs mightiest" for hype. It's silly to take that as any concrete statement of their power at all. Frieza being ultra arrogant and objectively wrong about himself proves literally nothing. Goku was referring to the current peak of his strength in which he can't access Ultra Instinct anymore.

The only real thing is the magazine saying Broly is the strongest opponent Goku ever fought. But I need a source for that. Even then I already acknowledged that the magazines are somewhat faulty, but they're especially faulty if they have Goku say something that's a direct contradiction to what he's stated in the actual movie itself.
 
It doesn't matter if Goku cannot use MUI. The fact is he said " i thought i was getting close to being as strong as i could get" the emphasis is on how strong Goku can get, he can't use MUI now but he can attain it and therefore get much stronger. It would be illogical for Goku to assume SSB is as strong as he can get after using UIO 3 times and attaining MUI. Goku not having MUI now is completely irrelevant to the statement made at the end of the movie.
 
He said he thought he was nearing his peak at that point. His current peak right now isn't Ultra Instinct cause he can't reach it anymore. And nothing suggests Goku's current SSB being close to or as strong a ToP Ultra Instinct.
 
.... Okay then:
* The Mightiest Warrior in Existence, should only be including those directly mentioned in the Movie (which Jiren was shown in the movie in a flashback) or are hinted to truly be "Warriors". Angels aren't warriors , more like vaguely defined guardians of the GoD , or even adversaries that could even be wrapped into the term of comparison as no entity in DB was compared to the Angels directly. It is rather obvious we shouldn't take the term that vaguely.... The fact you even implied I was stating that made me legitimately surprised.
* Frieza may be cocky... But that wasn't the attention. It was pretty much almost like what the Author was attempting to do with Goku saying Broly rivals Beerus at FP by using Goku here. Essentially the Novel is using that but replacing Goku with Frieza in that scene. Also it supports how much stronger Frieza is than before.
* Okay I'll get the magazine promo. And yes, Goku said it from the promo. Doesn't contradict much of anything as Goku still believes Beerus to be on a high pedestal of strength, and he doesn't know Beerus' Full Power and Beerus never hinted to Goku directly his real strength so nothing is contradicted here .
* I KNOW.that he was referring to SSB. That was my point the entire time. If he broke his limits when his power was near UIO 3rd to fight against Broly and still needed Gogeta in the end to fight Super Saiyan Broly... I don't need to explain that he should at least be equal to Jiren/LB Jiren as a Super Saiyan . Not to mention his previous peak was the power of Ultra Instinct Omen 3 / Complete Ultra Instinct. That was his strongest peak at that point. For him to be near that at full SSB is to imply he can be somewhat compared to it.
 
He said " i thought i was getting close to being as strong as i could get" thats different from reaching your peak in a specific formRyukama said:
He said he thought he was nearing his peak at that point. His current peak right now isn't Ultra Instinct cause he can't reach it anymore. And nothing suggests Goku's current SSB being close to or as strong a ToP Ultra Instinct.
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He said "i thought i was getting close to being as strong as i could get" thats different from reaching your peak in a specific form.
 
"Mightiest Warrior in existence" is a made up quote. It's just "mightiest vs mightiest" as I've shown. Also Grand Priest is explicitly referred to as a fighter. If you're going to say "mightiest warrior in existence" Grand Preist would have to be included. Either way it's just vague trailer hype.

Frieza erroneously thinking he's the strongest doesn't in any way prove Broly is above Jiren or MUI.

You said that in this magazine Goku definitively says even Ikari is the strongest person he's ever fought. Goku saying Broly as a whole just "might" be stronger than Beerus contradicts that. And even none of these promo statements are really canon but regardless.

Goku's current peak is SSB. He cannot go Ultra Instinct anymore, and nothing suggests his current SSB is as strong as ToP Ultra Instinct.
 
For me its this.

Base Broly - Is around the level of SSJ2 or 3. Stomped by SSG.

Ikari Broly - Superior to SSG forms. Stomped by SSB.

SSJ Broly - Stomped two Post ToP SSB's. Required SSJ Gogeta to be pushed beyond his limits.

FP SSJ Broly - Inferior to SSB Gogeta by a large difference.

But remember. UI Goku wasn't exactly confirmed to be stronger than Beerus. Just on the same level and at least superior to Belmod.

But Broly has two things going for him.

1. Claimed BY Goku to be likely stronger than Beerus.

2. Beerus did seem relieved that Broly was beaten. Implying he wouldn't have had an easy job doing it himself.
 
Ryan szla said:
He said "i thought i was getting close to being as strong as i could get" thats different from reaching your peak in a specific form.
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No he didn't. Why do you and Seed keep making up quotes?

In the dub he says "I was so sure my strength was getting close to its peak". Not "i thought i was getting close to being as strong as i could get" Goku's peak as of this movie is in SSB since he cannot obtain Ultra Instinct anymore. And nothing suggests SSB is as strong or on par with Ultra Instinct.

But the original Japanese is even worse in this case, since there all Goku said was "I was so sure of my strength, but then Broly showed up here and was way stronger!" Absolutely nothing about reaching his peak or anything. This quote is just Goku being cocky and then realizing Broly's way stronger.
 
@Ryu .... Again. Goku doesn't know Beerus' Full Power. He doesn't. It being stated through a magazine doesn't prove that at all as it is still being said through him... So unless you prove he does know Beerus' FP, the point still stands. That is your job to figure out . We have used the promo materials for scaling in the past for Jiren... Nothing suggest we can't use them now.

I will relent on the whole "stronger than he ever thought he could get point" . Must've been confusing the quotes. But still, we've used the prom material several times for debating for Jiren in the past , and if we use it for Goku it shouldn't be smacked away all of a sudden. Plus, the only level of power confirmed to be on GoD level or near it is UIO 3rd or MUi... Because every other usage of it was thoroghly debunked.
 
Goku doesn't know Beerus's full power, except you're fine with Goku claiming Ikari Broly is the strongest person he ever fought (which would include Beerus) in a noncanon promotional magazine not even made by Toei for some reason?

Also using the statement of 3rd UIO might have surpassing Beerus that was only said in the magazines I'm already a bit iffy on, but here the magazine has Goku say one thing and the canon has him saying something that outright contradicts it.

Except again he never says that. He thought his current strength was at his peak, but in the original Japanese he doesn't even say anything of the sort. Nothing suggests SSB Goku in this movie is 3rd UIO or MUI level.
 
I don't see the point of this match since MUI Goku's next appearance would be stronger than the ToP one and so would all of Broly's forms the next time any fights happen in verse. Unless the anime remakes the movie or has the characters mention something about MUI and Broly of the past in the future, we really wouldn't ever truly know.
 
With that said... IS this Post-ToP MUI Goku ? If he is Broly gets knocked around like a child's play toy and consider all my attempts at trying to support Broly null.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
I don't see the point of this match since MUI Goku's next appearance would be stronger than the ToP one and so would all of Broly's forms the next time any fights happen in verse. Unless the anime remakes the movie or has the characters mention something about MUI and Broly of the past in the future, we really wouldn't ever truly know.
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Yeah it almost seems purposely vague right now. I'm not comfortable with claiming either one is superior to another. We'd should have to wait until more information is released.
 
Yeah I can agree on this. While it's clear Broly at least scales to UIO 2nd... How he compares to MUI is very much unclear and left to speculation , nitpicking, and other such things. I agree to avoid making a matchup again involving these two [aloing with Jiren] until this is shown or stated without reasonable doubt that Broly/MUI Goku is stronger than the other.
 
DingleberryDovah said:
Inconclusive. There is no viable place to scale Broly compared to UI Goku.
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I might seem like a tinfoil conspiracy theorist but I think they made it vague on purpose. They didn't want to diminish people's hype for Broly by definitively saying that he's weaker than the last guy we saw Goku fight. But at the same time they didn't want to diminish the hype of MUI and Jiren by saying Broly's stronger. Also they probably don't know what plans they have for how MUI, Jiren and Broly with compare to one another yet. So they're making sure not to write something that'd be contradicted later on. Plus people constantly arguing this generates more buzz for the franchise lol
 
I vote Goku, but not necessarily because I think the sheer power and speed of his demonstrated M.U.I. form definitely surpasses Broly's. That's debatable. I think what this comes down to is which one of the two has better in-combat power-level adaptation and skill. M.U.I. is basically the ultimate of all such abilities, and honestly, even Broly's power-level adaptation in the movie didn't seem on-par with Goku's speed and level of adaptation during the 48 minute (but somehow 50 episode, lol) Tournament of Power. I agree with the people saying Goku will win because he can adapt to his opponents even better than Broly can.

Also, Goku with M.U.I. is far more skilled. The greatest trait of the form is actually its High-Tier-Godly Skill on-par with the fighting skills stated to be used by Angels like Whis. Broly is insanely powerful and fast, yes, but in the end he actually ISN'T insanely skilled or experienced in combat or martial arts technique. He fights like a brawler and pro wrestler a lot of the time, and thanks to the advantages of the LSSJ form is able to do so to great effect, but this is precisely the kind of fighting style that is weak against the skill of Ultra Instinct; I am positive that M.U.I. Goku would be able to instinctively foresee and dodge or deflect nearly all of Broly's moves, since Broly's fighting style is so very raw and straightforward. Broly fights on sheer instinct as well, but it is a far less refined instinct than that of the Gods and Angels which M.U.I. Goku uses.

I do not think that M.U.I. Goku is as powerful as Gogeta Blue, but he doesn't have to be QUITE that powerful anyway due to being more skilled. Gogeta, in the end, overwhelmed Broly with his significantly superior power and speed; M.U.I. Goku would only need to be roughtly-on-par with Broly's power, though, to smack him around due to his superior skill.
 
We should just label this match inconclusive. The debate goes on and on and on and on.
 
Endless Astrograph Sorcerer said:
There is much more evidence for MUI being superior to Broly than the other way around. With all due respect, there has been a lot of stating that 'Broly has the AP+speed advantage' without much, if any, reasoning given.
Click to expand...
AP advantage maybe. Speed advantage is completely absurd. UI is the pinacle of speed in DB.
 
JackJoyce said:
Are we forgetting Mafuba?
Click to expand...
Incharacter and op said nothing about bloodlust

Goku never use mafuba incharacter against character like Broly (actually a good guy)
 
Jiren Can move faster than ssb goku can see. Super saiyan broly cannot do that.

Since Mastered UI goku blitzed the **** out of jiren wouldn't that mean he could blitz the **** out of broly. Someone SLOWER than Jiren?
 
My vote is on Broly.

SSJB Goku (DBS Broly) is comparable to UIO3 Goku, and this SSJB Goku was comparable to Ikari Broly in power.

Broly transform into SSJ, and SSJB Goku utterly avoids him in that fight, he tried to team up with Vegeta but they did nothing. so they had to fuse.

Base Gogeta started dominating SSJ Broly until this one adapted and forced Gogeta to transform into a Super Saiyan. Both fight equally at this moment, until Broly transforms to LSSJ where he utterly stomps Gogeta and forces him to even use SSJB.

So, SSJ Broly is already at least 40x stronger than UIO3 Goku... and LSSJ Broly's advantage over UIO3 Goku is bigger than the SSJG multiplier (he forced Gogeta to SSJB, so clearly any other form wasn't enough).

I highly doubt MUI Goku would be *insert SSJG multiplier here* times stronger than UIO3. plus we have statements over there that say Broly is the strongest enemy on history meaning he's stronger than someone who fought on par with MUI.

so Broly wins imo.
 
I vote MUI Goku. Broly really didn't do anything that impressive.


Frieza was scratchless by the of the movie. He wasn't even reduced from Golden to Base. Something Jiren can do with just his aura.
 
Just saying, Frieza trained after the ToP. The same Frieza that went from Namek Saga power level to being able to fight SSB Goku just by training.
 
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