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Gojo Vs Shedinja
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
Oliver_de_jesus
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Goku fra
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Reinhard won against Goku
Reinhard fra
Reinhard fra
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Is there even anything Gojo can hit Shedinja with that it's weak to?
Also, Gojo doesn't resist having his spirit taken from looking at Shedinja's back which would in turn also bypass Infinity since no range is being involved.
Also, Gojo doesn't resist having his spirit taken from looking at Shedinja's back which would in turn also bypass Infinity since no range is being involved.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
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- Thread starter
- #6
Apparently not, all of Shedinja's weaknesses but Fire can't be verse equalized, but Gojo doesn't have fire or heat, so...
Currently not accepted as that in-verse rumor is never backed up and only contradicted if anything.
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 24,647
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Shedinja is 7-B, so Gojo cannot harm it
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,329
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What about Hollow Purple?
Eden_Warlock99
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It's durability is actually Unknown
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 24,647
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Maybe, HP is higher than Low 7-B Red
Ah
Now that i think, would DE work here?
IamMadeOutOfStone
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i dont see why not, this pokemon still has a mind, also how this little guy can bypass infinity even
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Which would translate to a Psychic type move, something Shedinja is immune to
IamMadeOutOfStone
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darn, well, gojo can still use it for the stat increase, and then i dont know, hollow purple the thing out
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 24,647
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have a regular(no-top or higher) Pokemon actually do something close to Unlimited Void?
IamMadeOutOfStone
He/Him- 710
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if that doesnt work then i dont know, since its ghost type, maybe hollow does nothing, then im out of ideas, maybe just gojo using blue to throw rock at this thing, since its weak to rock type attacks but its probably just a dumb idea of mine
IamMadeOutOfStone
He/Him- 710
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then, hear me out on this one, this thing is weak to rock type attacks right, then why doesn't gojo just, throw rocks at it whit blue, 1000 iq move
IamMadeOutOfStone
He/Him- 710
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yeah totally, but, when gojo uses blue or at least the max output version, it tends to bring a lot of rock whit it which will also hit Shedinja, also how does shedinja bypass inf again, like can it do it fast? or how so
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Doesn't it have a soul or something? The Pokedex entry states it's a discarded Bug Shell that came to life, and they're a Ghost type. Unlimited Void can affect things without a brain by transferring information into the soul.
?
The rocks remain pretty in-tact:
Gojo also just has standard Telekinesis. He could just fling rocks at Shedinja the same way he flung a bridge at Sukuna:
So even if Blue doesn't do the trick, his standard TK should suffice.
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For what it's worth, Reversal: Red also has a lot of heat to it. That and Purple. Both have shown to incinerate and char flesh, leaving steam behind. I assume that'd fulfill the "fire type" weakness.
IamMadeOutOfStone
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then this is just gojo figuring out how to kill this thing, i do agree on some of LaserPrecision scans though
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
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- Thread starter
- #25
Those two types can't be verse equalized, and by extension this can't be extrapolated as such.
Given LaserPrecision's stuff, it seems best for Shedinja to be Tera Ghost to avoid this from being a stomp.
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If the two can't be equalized, I think Gojo's techniques which aren't comparable to anything in Pokemon should go straight through Wonder-Guard. Would it not be No-Limits Fallacy to assume Wonder Guard protects against every phenomena conceivable if it's only shown to work against a handful of affects/abilities? The only instance where there would be more lenience is if the hax mechanics was explained well and was haxy enough that most other hax or abilities can't bypass it.
Even if we don't want to go by that, we know that affecting space can affect Shedinja as Palkia threatening to destroy the Universe via its Space-Manipulation would result in everything in the universes destruction. Gojo's main gimmick is spatial manipulation, and to an atomic level. Pretty sure Blue, Red, and Purple should work just fine. Especially Blue since that creates effectively a hole in space which pulls space in to correct the mistake.
Oliver_de_jesus
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Also, Red severely damaged Domain Amplification Sukuna, which is a power null similar to Wonder-Guard
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While I agree, Domain Amplification nulls through a very specific method. Being able to bypass one method of power-null =/= null other methods of power null. The two aren't really comparable here.
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 24,647
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Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
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- Thread starter
- #30
That is indeed correct, Wonder Guard is so defensively haxy that it invalidates a good chunk of stuff in the verse, as for an explanation, given its description and portrayal, it seems to merely repel all attacks that aren't super effective (or that can suppress the ability itself, say, Sunsteel Strike), passively preventing from interacting with Shedinja in a significant manner.
Destroying the universe =/= manipulating space, or in plain terms a Low 2-C feat and a far more limited area of effect are very different things, and in fact Wonder Guard blocks Spacial Rend.
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I suppose you could interpret it that way? Either that or attacks halt? Not really sure. I'm sure the Manga or Anime would depict it in some fashion that would shows how it works physically.
You know what, fair enough. Granted the potency in which it controls space isn't stated. Unlike Infinity which is precise enough to operate on the atomic level. So take that as you will.
However, after looking a little into it, I remembered that Wonder Guard can be neutralized via passive abilities such as Teravolt, Turboblaze, and Mold Breaker.
Gojo, one of the most talented Sorcerers should be able to replicate/use Domain Amplification (Given he understands every aspect of it). A technique which nullifies abilities. It does so by imbuing the ability of the enemy into the barrier around their body. Allowing them to thus bypass it and hit the enemy. While it does require Gojo to turn his technique off, he would only need to do so until he lands a single hit, and would thus kill Shedinja.
Alternatively, my question in regards to Shedinja was never answered:
If Shedinja has a soul, he is subject to Unlimited Void. Which would first leave Shedinja in a vegetative state, and eventually kill. Assuming Wonder Guard hasn't shown the ability to block purely raw information. Seeing as it's a ghost-type, and stated the shell came to life, my guess would be it has a spirit of some sort.
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Surprising.
That thread is from 3 years ago.
Gameplay & story segregation.
Pokemon games have dozens of entries that aren't unproven by in-game feats, let alone NPCs or the player character dropping dead mid-battle because they used a certain Pokemon.
& why would the dead be just left around if there were found? (Even if the death could be affirmed to be from a Pokemon.)
It was argued to be a Possibly
Plus, the conclusion was this:
Shedinja ability removal (Also some other stuff but it instantly got shot down so ignore that)
Absolutely disagree FRA. This CRT is based on argument from incredulity and the whole argument here is "it obviously doesn't do that because I say so" when game mechanics exist. I literally don't see anything else here, really. As said already from Kukui, we take everything that's not...
LordGriffin1000: Yes.
(Not sure how to quote that properly because the post is in a closed thread.)
Ergo, it should still be a Possibly on the profile, not removed.
Plus, in my opinion, assuming trainers see the back all the time is shortsighted & dumb:
1. The player character is not the player. They aren't necessarily looking at the same things the player is.
2. In the 3D games, like X & Y, if you idle the character, you can see camera panning shots where it shows the Pokemon AND THE TRAINERS. & IIRC, I'm pretty sure that they're almost always depicted as staying straight ahead with a determined look. Plus, a Shedinja, even hovering, likely wouldn't be eye level with them.
3. IIRC, in the anime, & seemingly less commonly, trainers are taught to watch their Pokemon. Also, less certainly, taught to watch their opponents. Paying attention to your Pokemon means minding everything it does. For what it's worth, Shedinja seemingly doesn't move nor breathe, but that doesn't mean trainers wouldn't be looking for damage, signs of status conditions, the status of their opponent, etc.
Pokemon as a whole is often a franchise where all rumours are true, as that's a general truism for fiction.
There's also the issue of the anime not always depicting Pokedex entries, with many not having theirs shown.
& also the WORDING.
| Ruby | Shedinja's hard body doesn't move - not even a twitch. In fact, its body appears to be merely a hollow shell. It is believed that this Pokémon will steal the spirit of anyone peering into its hollow body from its back. |
|---|
| X | A discarded bug shell that came to life. Peering into the crack on its back is said to steal one's spirit. |
|---|
It doesn't say "anyone who sees its back", nor "anyone who sees the hole/crack in its back", nor "in the direction of its back", NOR "has its back or the hole in its back in their field of view"....
It doesn't say "at its back".
It says "into"!!
As in staring at the inside of Shedinja's back!
Heck, even THAT isn't the right wording because NONE of Shedinja's entries use the word "staring", they use "peering"!!
peer - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Looking inside, with difficulty? As though searching for something?!
That isn't something you do incidentally like people were assuming!
But okay okay, that's just the English version, which isn't the original. What about the original Japanese?
<span class="mw-page-title-main">ヌケニン</span>
ルビー、オメガルビー
かたい からだは ぴくりとも うごかない。せなかから からだの くうどうを のぞくと たましいを すいとられると しんじられている。
(漢字) 硬い 体は ぴくりとも 動かない。背中から 体の 空洞を のぞくと 魂を 吸い取られると 信じられている。
The linked text is the versions the entry is from. Ruby & Omega Ruby, grouped together, because they're identical in that version.
The entries in some games have both Hiragana & Katakana only versions, as well as entries that use Kanji, as many Kanji aren't learned until later grades; Kanji provide clarity, but even for Native Japanese, some young audiences may not understand all Kanji, but Hiragana & Katakana are like the alphabet, & can be more readily understood by all audiences.
The Japanese phrasing, in both versions uses のぞく(nozoku), which, despite not being kanji in this case, likely is to be read as this term: 覗く. (Also pronounced nozoku.)
覗く - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Definitions:
1. to peek (through a keyhole, gap, etc.)
2. to look down into (a ravine, etc.)
3. to peek into (a shop, bookstore, etc.)
4. to sneak a look at; to take a quick look at
5. to peep (through a telescope, microscope, etc.)
6. to stick out (a scarf from a collar, etc.); to peek through (sky through a forest canopy, etc.)
7. to examine (an expression); to study (a face)
8. to faceArchaic, See also 臨む, esp. 臨く
& as Wiktionary says:
[verb] peek, sneak a look, peep
Alternative spellings
覘く, 臨く
Peek, as a NOUN (We're dealing with a VERB here) can be defined as:
But the rest of those definitions suggest too DELIBERATE a look. Not quick.
As for "peep":
(intransitive) To look, especially through a narrow opening, or while trying not to be seen or noticed.
(transitive, slang) To take a look at; check out.
(Has a similar meaning, but too informal for Pokedex use.)
It can also mean, as a NOUN:
A quick look or glimpse, especially a furtive one.
(Furtive: Of a thing: done with evasive or guilty secrecy.)
Now what about the Pokedex entry from X?
ダイヤモンド・パール・プラチナ、ブラック・ホワイト、ブラック2・ホワイト2、X、ブリリアントダイヤモンド・シャイニングパール
ぬけがらが たましいを やどした。せなかの すきまから のぞきこむと たましいを すわれてしまうらしい。
(漢字) 抜け殻が 魂を 宿した。背中の すきまから のぞきこむと 魂を 吸われてしまうらしい。
As you can see, this entry has been used verbatim, just as it is, in many games.
We can see:
すきまから のぞきこむ
(sukimakara nozokikomu)
すきま is the kana form of 隙間, which has definitions such as:
Noun
1. gap; opening; aperture; crevice; crack; *****; space
Noun
2. spare moment; interval; breakDated term
Noun
3. unguarded moment; carelessness; ***** in one's armor; weak spotDated term
から is a common particle in Japanese. Definitions:
Particle
1. from (e.g. time, place, numerical quantity); since
Particle
2. from (originator); by
Particle
3. because; sincefollows verbs, adjectives
Particle
4. out of (constituent, part)
Particle
5. through (e.g. window, vestibule)
Particle
6. after; sincefollowing the te-form of a verb
Particle
7. expresses sympathy or warning
& のぞきこむ is the kana writing of 覗き込む, which has 1 definition:
1. to look into; to peer in
I already went over the nuances of "peer" earlier. What about "look"?
To try to see, to pay attention to with one’s eyes.
Try. Pay attention; You do not typically look undeliberately.
The only definition of it where it makes sense here for から seems to be "through".
So: "すきまから のぞきこむ".
The gap through, peer into.
"Peer into/through the gap."
You aren't trying to stare directly into nor through Shedinja's back when you have it out in a battle & there's other things to look at.
If you have a glass of water in your field of view, are you trying to look through it to see the bottom of the glass?
If you hold a donut, are you trying to look through the empty space at the center of the donut?
No, typically, you do not! Those are very deliberate actions of looking into/through!
Just because you can see a hole in the ground doesn't mean you're looking at what's in there, especially if it's dark enough that it's unclear!
& yet everyone has always treated Shedinja like simply having its back anywhere at all in your field of view is sufficient, when you have to be looking more like you're trying to peep through a keyhole!! ARGH!
TL;DR - The ability should be a Possibly because it was accepted as such by Admin LordGriffin1000, all rumors are true, & because the reason there isn't more evidence is because people have been misreading this dang baleful bunch of bug bones for YEARS!!
Case in point, even the current profile says:
- Soul Manipulation: It is stated that anyone who stares into the crack in its back will have their spirit taken away, though it is unclear whether or not this is true. Attacks like Phantom Force, Shadow Sneak and Shadow Ball can also harm soul-based creatures, like Ghost Type Pokémon.
Sorry for ranting. Should I bring this to a CRT?
Hope no one minds this.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
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- Thread starter
- #34
I'd think so, yes, probably expanding on Shedinja's Wonder Guard indexing-wise while at it too (in particular whether Gen 9 stuff should be included out of implementation semantics and there being deliberate interactions, such as Revival Blessing being marked as compatible with Assist, or Orichalcum Pulse triggering under Desolate Land unlike Protosynthesis), feel free to DM me if you'd need help on this.
In any case, given this and how it's currently on the profile, I don't think this bit of Shedinja is particularly relevant for the match.
I think that DA is probably valid here, as for UV, I don't think that'd be covered by Wonder Guard regardless as that doesn't fall as an attack, but rather a direct status condition, which such ability doesn't block (compare Hypnosis).
As it seems both have wincons at this point, I think it may be worth noting that Shedinja can ensure a hit on Gojo with Mind Reader, letting it foresee his movements to do so (once Infinity is off, of course), as well as teleport around to strike with Phantom Force, or move faster and hit with Shadow Sneak, this stuff is relevant considering Shedinja has the AP advantage.
NGL, this seems still even, so I'll vote Inconclusive for now.
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....
Wonder Guard blocks damaging moves.
My memory isn't perfect, but I've spent a lot of time reading Pokemon move descriptions - Most Psychic-type moves aren't Mind Manipulation, but rather, Telekinesis.
A Psychic-type Mind Manipulation move like Hypnosis will still affect Shedinja.
To its credit, Shedinja is stated to be immobile, not moving, & statedly not breathing.
IIRC, the closest they get is:
1. The secondary effect of the move named Confusion (Can inflict the Confusion status. Yes, confusing I know.), a move which is described as a weak telekinetic force.
2. The secondary effect of Extrasensory (Can make the affected flinch.), a move which is described as an unseen force.
3. Dream Eater, which is more like Dream Manipulation than Mind Manipulation. So, kind of close, I guess?
Hypnosis is also Mind Manipulation, but still. More Psychic-type moves are Telekinesis than not, especially among damaging ones.
Meanwhile, among Dark-type moves, Dark Pulse:
The user releases a horrible aura imbued with dark thoughts. This may also make the target flinch.
The user releases a horrible aura imbued with ill intent. This may also make the target flinch.
There is some argument for Dark-types having Mind Manipulation.
Dark Void:
LA The target is dragged into a world of total darkness that makes the target drowsy and lowers its defensive stats.
SV Opposing Pokémon are dragged into a world of total darkness that puts them to sleep.
(Note that LA means Pokemon: Legends Arceus, a game set in the past of Sinnoh -Then Hisui- & thus gives focus to Gen 4 Pokemon, including legendaries like Darkrai, which Dark Void is the signature move of. Many moves in LA also have different descriptions & functions, but P:LA is still a mainline game from GF, AFAIK, & mostly similar to the regular games nonetheless.)
Taunt:
The target is taunted into a rage that allows it to use only attack moves for three turns.
Torment:
The user torments and enrages the target, making it incapable of using the same move twice in a row.
But of those, Taunt & Torment are debatable (Empathic Manipulation? Social Influencing?) & Dark Void, as said, is Darkrai's signature move. It may not be the typical capabilities of the type across all species.
& in Ghost-type moves:
Confuse Ray:
The target is exposed to a sinister ray that causes confusion.
Nightmare:
A sleeping target sees a nightmare that inflicts some damage every turn.
Dream Manipulation?
Rage Fist
The user converts its rage into energy to attack. The more times the user has been hit by attacks, the greater the move's power.
Empathic Manipulaton? Damage Boost? Reactive Power Level? Statistics Amplification?
Also, Rage Fist is the signature move of Annihilape, which, although not a Legendary, may mean it isn't necessarily representative of the type's capabilities.
There's probably others to go over, but I'm lazy & point is, AFAIK, Ghost-type doesn't do much Mind Manipulation very often either.
Many of those things could be brought up in the Pokemon General Discussion Thread:
Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc
I know its always been shaky, but working out a way we can add things like TMs/HMs for full documentation would be nice. I'm unsure how we'd handle standards for it, but the profiles, in my opinion, have always felt incomplete since the pokemon has that 'Potential' to know the move, even if in...
I'm more active on the forums than in Discord anyway.
But yeah, I would appreciate discussing with you that stuff you're interested in, albeit, ideally somewhere on the forum if at all possible, please.
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That reminds me.
How long has this been the case?
Anyway, that means the "lol, just throw a rock" argument doesn't work.
Also, what are the scaling values &/or chains?
Because, IIRC, Terrastallization is stated to make Pokemon stronger, & in the case of STAB, it gives STAB to moves of the new type, or if the Tera Type matches 1 of the Pokemon's original type, changes the boost so that STAB is 2x instead of 1.5x, an effective 1.33x times boost.
So how big is the difference considering Terastallization?
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I think Gojo's more likely to pull off his win-cons first. Six Eyes allows him to understand the abilities of his opponent down to the specifics with a glance. Also lets him sense opponents, so any sneak attacks via Phantom Force and Shadow Sneak aren't likely to connect (Except maybe if they use Mind Reader? How does the wiki treat it? As homing attacks? Law Manipulation? Etc?).
Gojo prolly gets a gist of Wonder Guard, and opts to use Domain Amplification to bypass it. Seeing as their durability is unknown, it'd be a one-shot. Alternatively he uses Domain Expansion which will also kill.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
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- Thread starter
- #38
I'm unsure on if Six Eyes would particularly work here considering this is something supernatural yet unrelated to Cursed Energy stuff. In any case, considering its portrayal of MInd Reader I'd lean to it being Precognition, especially as it's shown as being usable reactively on this manner, Shadow Sneak includes an Speed amp, so that combined with Mind Reader is fairly likely to hit.
Since that post.
I'm quite sure even without that it goes well beyond the gap required to one shot, considering that this is over 4 times above the relative baseline of 7-B.
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Mind Reader (Japanese: こころのめ Mind's Eye)
The user senses the target's movements with its mind to ensure its next attack does not miss the target.
Curiously, the Japanese name uses "kokoro", something often translated like "Heart", IIRC. Kind of like in Kingdom Hearts. It's a term often used somewhat like mind, soul, etc.
Neat.
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 24,647
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Six eyes work against things without Cursed Energy such as Heavenly restriction
