God of War: Ragnarok Discussion Thread

[ByAsura]

Okay? And somehow just because they're bigger that suddenly makes them uninteractible? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

No, the point is that you need to have actual proof that they're even that much bigger in the first place. You just don't have it at all.

Not really a counterargument given the Furies' ability to warp reality.

How's this even a counterargument? In what way would that prevent the fact that Kratos literally never does anything to interact with them?

Not really, because they use hax to torture Aegaeon, not brute strength, and Kratos with his "near-Olympian strength" still needs the Gauntlet of Zeus to fight on par with Atlas and got one-shot by Ares with a pillar.

Setting aside the fact that Ares is one of the stronger Olympians and Atlas is the 2nd strongest Titan, they're shown not using hax to tear through Titans.

It is created via magical energy emitted from themselves and used in their attacks.

How does this matter? I didn't say anything along those lines.

In fact, I fully support scaling Kratos to this, I just disagree with 4-A.

Respectfully, this doesn't make any sense. Every single one of their illusions is physical and affects the environment and even themselves at times. We can see the sky being formed from the same energy as well and there's nothing really implying that for whatever reason they "cut corners" with the stars so to speak.

Once again, this is not proof. This is saying that events kilometres or tens of kilometres away are proof of something on this scale. Y'all actually need some evidence beyond the fact that what Kratos interacts with is a 1:1 representation of reality.

We see the sky itself being warped by the same power they use to warp reality at every point in the game itself. To assume that they decided to make this part of their physical illusions fake for whatever reason is a bigger set of assumptions than that they simply made it like everything else.

First of all, even perceivably changing night to day as an AP feat isn't considered Galaxy level or Moon level for either altering the stars or altering the rotation of the Earth.

Second, how the **** is making an entire star cluster less of an assumption than 'these stars potentially aren't anywhere near as large or far away as real ones'?

I still haven't been given any kind of real evidence on this, let alone proof.

 

[ByAsura]

We also have 5B/4C Sun and Moon creation.

Unless, you know, they're not truly representative either.

In fact, the God of War sun and moon aren't even anything like the IRL sun and moon since Helios' chariot is the sun, so I think that'd kind of be a given in this situation.

 

[Planck69]

No, the point is that you need to have actual proof that they're even that much bigger in the first place. You just don't have it at all.

.....We have to prove the starry sky is a starry sky?

How's this even a counterargument? In what way would that prevent the fact that Kratos literally never does anything to interact with them?

That'd be like a person creating a pocket dimension to fight someone, getting beaten and saying "well, he never interacted".

Setting aside the fact that Ares is one of the stronger Olympians and Atlas is the 2nd strongest Titan, they're shown not using hax to tear through Titans.

They can mutate flesh with ease and warp reality. Unless this is some chip damage argument or something.

Once again, this is not proof. This is saying that events kilometres or tens of kilometres away are proof of something on this scale. Y'all actually need some evidence beyond the fact that what Kratos interacts with is a 1:1 representation of reality.

Not even trying to be sparky, just genuinely asking; are the Sun and Moon not enough in the other illusions?

First of all, even perceivably changing night to day as an AP feat isn't considered Galaxy level or Moon level for either altering the stars or altering the rotation of the Earth

....Not what I was saying though. And they didn't alter the rotation, you visibly see the energy form the stars.

Second, how the **** is making an entire star cluster less of an assumption than 'these stars potentially aren't anywhere near as large or far away as real ones'?

To me at least, it's the fact that everything they've ever made so far was real and matched with its real life counterpart.

I still haven't been given any kind of real evidence on this, let alone proof.

I believe its enough but honestly, I'd be fine with it being a thread with other staff to offer input if need be. Needlessly going back and forth does nothing.

 

[KLOL506]

In fact, the God of War sun and moon aren't even anything like the IRL sun and moon since Helios' chariot is the sun, so I think that'd kind of be a given in this situation.

Yeah no, Helios's Chariot is not the sun, nor is Helios the Sun himself, but a personification of it, when he dies the Sun gets blocked out by clouds. But it comes back up again by the end of GoW3.

 

[ByAsura]

.....We have to prove the starry sky is a starry sky?

No, you have to give any kind of tangible evidence for the fact that it's trillions or quintillions of miles across. That's literally the minimum here.

Personally, I don't even think there's no way it's 4-A. I just don't think the evidence is sufficient to be put on profiles without a possibly/likely rating.

That'd be like a person creating a pocket dimension to fight someone, getting beaten and saying "well, he never interacted".

When you strip basically all the context, yes.

If for example, Jim Jason from Helter Shelter: The Game (not real, btw, I just don't care) BFR'd you to a pocket dimension castle with a few stars outside of his glass, I don't think we'd accept that.

They can mutate flesh with ease and warp reality. Unless this is some chip damage argument or something.

I'm talking about their bugs being able to casually eat through their flesh. But they were also corpses, so idk.

Not even trying to be sparky, just genuinely asking; are the Sun and Moon not enough in the other illusions?

It depends on how much evidence you have. Simply making a pocket dimension that looks like a sun and moon isn't enough. We needed much, much stronger evidence for Naruto and Bleach.

....Not what I was saying though. And they didn't alter the rotation, you visibly see the energy form the stars.

Not what I was saying either. I was giving examples of the burden of proof.

I believe its enough but honestly, I'd be fine with it being a thread with other staff to offer input if need be. Needlessly going back and forth does nothing.

Ok. I might make one then.

Yeah no, Helios's Chariot is not the sun, nor is Helios the Sun himself, but a personification of it, when he dies the Sun gets blocked out by clouds. But it comes back up again by the end of GoW3.

Don't they literally say it's Helios' Chariot in the novels.

 

[KLOL506]

Don't they literally say it's Helios' Chariot in the novels.

No. GoW3 and GoW Ascension say otherwise. Helios's chariot is just his god form personifying the Sun. Hyperion also forged his spear in the Sun's core.

 

[KLOL506]

No, the point is that you need to have actual proof that they're even that much bigger in the first place. You just don't have it at all.

This is like asking whether the universe created from Uranus and all its contents are 1:1.

How's this even a counterargument? In what way would that prevent the fact that Kratos literally never does anything to interact with them?

Doesn't matter, they're all made of the same energy source, it'd require way too many assumptions to assume that they don't have the same level of tangibility as everything else they make.

Setting aside the fact that Ares is one of the stronger Olympians and Atlas is the 2nd strongest Titan, they're shown not using hax to tear through Titans.

Atlas is the mightiest Titan physically, Cronos is the strongest magically.

Also no, Furies never target Titans. EVER. IDK where you got that from.

Not only that, they warp reality and mutate flesh with their bug thingies or just mindhax and madness manip right out of the gate. All hax.

How does this matter? I didn't say anything along those lines.

Stabilization and Sustenance Feats.

Once again, this is not proof. This is saying that events kilometres or tens of kilometres away are proof of something on this scale. Y'all actually need some evidence beyond the fact that what Kratos interacts with is a 1:1 representation of reality.

You're saying this as if the Furies don't have knowledge of the things they make.

First of all, even perceivably changing night to day as an AP feat isn't considered Galaxy level or Moon level for either altering the stars or altering the rotation of the Earth.

Remotely not the same thing here. There is no rotation involved either, it's all from their energy.

Second, how the **** is making an entire star cluster less of an assumption than 'these stars potentially aren't anywhere near as large or far away as real ones'?

The fact that they've made all their other illusions tangible using the same exact energy source.

I still haven't been given any kind of real evidence on this, let alone proof.

I guess we'll agree to disagree then.

 

[Diamentus]

Yeah no, Helios's Chariot is not the sun, nor is Helios the Sun himself, but a personification of it, when he dies the Sun gets blocked out by clouds. But it comes back up again by the end of GoW3.

May I ask, how come Nyx didn't merge her universe with the main universe after Helios died?

 

[Planck69]

Personally, I'm chill with a Possibly Rating. Ultimately though, I'd prefer the full one.

 

[KLOL506]

No, you have to give any kind of tangible evidence for the fact that it's trillions or quintillions of miles across. That's literally the minimum here.

Personally, I don't even think there's no way it's 4-A. I just don't think the evidence is sufficient to be put on profiles without a possibly/likely rating.

Why not? The illusions are all made of the same energy source that they can then channel to attack Kratos. It's basically your standard UES shenanigans.

When you strip basically all the context, yes.

If for example, Jim Jason from Helter Shelter: The Game (not real, btw, I just don't care) BFR'd you to a pocket dimension castle with a few stars outside of his glass, I don't think we'd accept that.

It's one thing to BFR like that and another to reality warp your entire surroundings to an entire city and a night sky littered with stars.

I'm talking about their bugs being able to casually eat through their flesh. But they were also corpses, so idk.

They don't eat through the flesh, they transmute on contact first, then the real magic happens.

It depends on how much evidence you have. Simply making a pocket dimension that looks like a sun and moon isn't enough. We needed much, much stronger evidence for Naruto and Bleach.

Evidence that was sent to me for evaluation BTW, which I helped in evaluating and correcting only for calc reasons.

Ok. I might make one then.

We'll be waiting then.

 

[KLOL506]

May I ask, how come Nyx didn't merge her universe with the main universe after Helios died?

Entire pantheon went to shit after Kratos enacted complete Chaos. Nobody in their right minds would try to confront a rage-addled godkiller at this stage who has mercilessly slaughtered everyone in his path. Morpheus? He was most likely reprimanded, harshly at that.

 

[ByAsura]

This is like asking whether the universe created from Uranus and all its contents are 1:1.

It's literally stated to be infinite, so we actually have a bare minimum of ******* proof here.

Doesn't matter, they're all made of the same energy source, it'd require way too many assumptions to assume that they don't have the same level of tangibility as everything else they make.

My guy, for the last time, I never said they weren't real. I said we don't know if they're truly representative of that kind of scale, which is literally a fact until someone sources any kind of proof.

Miss me with this 'they're made from the same energy source' stuff, because it's not part of the argument.

Atlas is the mightiest Titan physically, Cronos is the strongest magically.

I was referring to Gaia as 1st when I called Atlas 2nd strongest.

Anyway, fine on the furies stuff. I must have just been mistaking those giant ass corpses for Titans.

Stabilization and Sustenance Feats.

Stabilization and sustenance feats rely on this scale to begin with, they aren't inherently proof.

You're saying this as if the Furies don't have knowledge of the things they make.

Never said anything remotely like this, or that could even suggest such a thing. And even if I did, how would them making something different not show how knowledgeable they are on this kind of subject.

Remotely not the same thing here. There is no rotation involved either, it's all from their energy.

Again, this was an example of the burden of proof we placed in this level of feats. Hence why I said rotation was the minimum.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The entire point of UES was to be used as guidelines to find and determine whether creation and destruction feats should scale to creator/destructor.

Furies have zero anti-feats on for their magical constructs being less than what is advertised on screen.
Like it's very unfair burden of proof to go around and ask whether every star in dimensions sky is real or not.
Like in 99% cases those are generally uninteractable due to circumstances of story or mechanics. Just like real life, we have never seen or felt stars up close or obvious reasons.
That doesn't mean they are intangible or small.

 

[ByAsura]

Furies have zero anti-feats on for their magical constructs being less than what is advertised on screen.

They also have zero confirmed feats in the first place, which is what I'm saying.

Like it's very unfair burden of proof to go around and ask whether every star in dimensions sky is real or not.

No it isn't. We literally do that most of the time, and should do that.

Like in 99% cases those are generally uninteractable due to circumstances of story or mechanics. Just like real life, we have never seen or felt stars up close or obvious reasons.

The fact that there's no kind of statement, suggestion, level of feat or cosmic event anywhere close to this scale, etc is what does it for me.

Y'all have literally ******* nothing besides 'everything else they make is accurate.' Everything else they make is nowhere close to the same scale.

 

[KLOL506]

It's literally stated to be infinite, so we actually have a bare minimum of ******* proof here.

Even without that it'd be asinine to assume otherwise considering Gyges himself and other WoG repeat this verbatim. Remember, they were 3-A until we found the Helios scans and the infinite mortal world scans.

My guy, for the last time, I never said they weren't real. I said we don't know if they're truly representative of that kind of scale, which is literally a fact until someone sources any kind of proof.

Like I said, it all falls back to arguing whether the stars Uranus made were real or town-sized. No way around it.

I was referring to Gaia as 1st when I called Atlas 2nd strongest.

Gaia is nowhere near the strongest, not even close, she's literally a Primordial-turned-Titan. Cronos and Atlas take that spot.

Stabilization and sustenance feats rely on this scale to begin with, they aren't inherently proof.

Different story here.

 

[Diamentus]

Even without that it'd be asinine to assume otherwise considering Gyges himself and other WoG repeat this verbatim. Remember, they were 3-A until we found the Helios scans and the infinite mortal world scans.


Like I said, it all falls back to arguing whether the stars Uranus made were real or town-sized. No way around it.


Gaia is nowhere near the strongest, not even close, she's literally a Primordial-turned-Titan. Cronos and Atlas take that spot.


Different story here.

Pretty sure Atlas is strongest in physical strength. If I recall, they said Cronos was very slightly weaker than Atlas in terms of strength.

 

[KLOL506]

Pretty sure Atlas is strongest in physical strength. If I recall, they said Cronos was very slightly weaker than Atlas in terms of strength.

Atlas is physically the strongest, with Cronos being a very close second, but he's got the strongest magic, and as an all-rounder, Cronos tops, as per Zeus's words in the GOW2 novel. Oceanus is the weakest.

 

[ByAsura]

Even without that it'd be asinine to assume otherwise considering Gyges himself and other WoG repeat this verbatim. Remember, they were 3-A until we found the Helios scans and the infinite mortal world scans.

Ok, then, I guess we're pretending that all the other statements and the God of War: Ascension intro isn't real.

We have still have nothing here.

Also, can I emphasise once again that I'm planning on regulating this to a possibly/likely rating, which is literally what we do in these kinds of cases where information is not concrete.

Gaia is nowhere near the strongest. Cronos and Atlas take that spot.

I strongly disagree with that, but whatever.

Different story here.

How?

 

[Planck69]

A part of me feels it to be odd that one of the main standard for a starry sky feat is a character going "Yep, those are stars. In case you thought otherwise" is.... asinine but eh.


If those are standards then I can't really change that.

 

[KLOL506]

Ok, then, I guess we're pretending that all the other statements and the God of War: Ascension intro isn't real.

Uhhh... what? What are you even talking about?

I strongly disagree with that, but whatever.

You may disagree, but the source materials and WoG stand against you.

How?

Simple. Everything they do expends their own energy to make tangible illusions. It'd require a shitton of assumptions to assume they aren't making the stuff within scale, because if they can replicate entire cities with the utmost precision, what stops them from remaking the night sky with the same amount of precision involved?

 

[Planck69]

Simple. Everything they do expends their own energy to make tangible illusions. It'd require a shitton of assumptions to assume they aren't making the stuff within scale, because if they can replicate entire cities with the utmost precision, what stops them from remaking the night sky with the same amount of precision involved?

I'm OK with ByAsura making it Possibly/Likely if the standards make it so but I have to talk about this part;


Is there some tier beyond which the demonstrated fact of 1:1 replications of physical objects via their power just....falls apart? Like, is it an eyeballed thing or what? Asking generally.

 

[Lilixa]

Uhhh... what? What are you even talking about?


You may disagree, but the source materials and WoG stand against you.


Simple. Everything they do expends their own energy to make tangible illusions. It'd require a shitton of assumptions to assume they aren't making the stuff within scale, because if they can replicate entire cities with the utmost precision, what stops them from remaking the night sky with the same amount of precision involved?

so Occam's razor here.

 

[ByAsura]

Uhhh... what? What are you even talking about?

Proof that stars aren't the size of towns in GoW, and that an outer cosmos definitely exists.

Simple. Everything they do expends their own energy to make tangible illusions.

Once again, an argument I never made and didn't disagree with.

It'd require a shitton of assumptions to assume they aren't making the stuff within scale, because if they can replicate entire cities with the utmost precision, what stops them from remaking the night sky with the same amount of precision involved?

See this is exactly what I mean. This is not proof at all. Your literal argument is that because they can make fully-sized and scaled cities with a high level of precision, that's somehow any kind of evidence that they also make stars with the same level of precision. You know they can just also not do that, right?

 

[Planck69]

See this is exactly what I mean. This is not proof at all. Your literal argument is that because they can make fully-sized and scaled cities with a high level of precision, that's somehow any kind of evidence that they also make stars with the same level of precision. You know they can just also not do that, right?

But we see the stars being made. You argue that they may be fake or inaccurate, fair, but we see it happen.

 

[ByAsura]

I meant fully-sized stars, my guy. I know they made things that at least look like stars (whether they're fully sized, 2-D representations, miniatures, etc) with that level of precision.

My point is that making a city and some mountains, no matter how complex they are, can't just be conflated with something as vast as an entire region of space with numerous stars. And it especially can't be used as proof.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm going to make the possibly thread in about an hour if nobody can really give anything else.

In the mean time, maybe look for some sources, or any tangible/fully realised evidence.

 

[KLOL506]

I meant fully-sized stars, my guy. I know they made things that at least look like stars (whether they're fully sized, 2-D representations, miniatures, etc) with that level of precision.

Burden of proof is on you that they only made it look like stars instead of making them like the real thing in the skies. Because everything we've seen so far proves otherwise.

My point is that making a city and some mountains, no matter how complex they are, can't just be conflated with something as vast as an entire region of space with numerous stars. And it especially can't be used as proof.

It's not just the complexity that counts here, it's the intent. If they're not gonna half-ass it with the most basic stuff, what makes you think they'll half-ass it with the grandest of them?

 

[ByAsura]

Burden of proof is on you that they only made it look like stars instead of making them like the real thing in the skies.

The burden of proof is still on you, my guy, because the profile inherently claims that they are stars when we don't possibly have the evidence to make that assertion.

My claim is that we don't actually know, hence why we should go with a possibly rating, and it's an accurate claim. My claim is not 'these must only look like stars.'

Because everything we've seen so far proves otherwise.

No it doesn't because you've literally given me nothing aside from a complexity argument, which is hardly evidence, let alone solid proof.

It's not just the complexity that counts here, it's the intent. If they're not gonna half-ass it with the most basic stuff, what makes you think they'll half-ass it with the grandest of them?

That relies on the massive assumption that they can make the grandest of them in the first place. Also, the intent was to confuse and fight Kratos, so why would making the stars he can't/hasn't travelled to 1:1 help with that in any way?

 

[KLOL506]

The burden of proof is still on you, my guy, because the profile inherently claims that they are stars when we don't possibly have the evidence to make that assertion.

But... they are stars. Unless you want to nuke every single other starry sky feat out there? Because then this isn't a GoW issue, it's a sitewide issue.

My claim is that we don't actually know, hence why we should go with a possibly rating, and it's an accurate claim. My claim is not 'these must only look like stars.'

What reason is there to assume we don't know?

No it doesn't because you've literally given me nothing.

More so it seems you aren't convinced with the evidences we've provided.

That relies on the massive assumption that they can make the grandest of them. Also, the intent was to confuse Kratos, so why would making the stars 1:1 help with that in any way?

There is no massive assumption here, Occam's Razor is literally at play here.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Ain't sure if this has been brought up B4, but Tishpone uses the exact same energy she uses to create illusions as attacks. Her bird is made entirely of it. I'd say, the moon, sun, and stars as Is real as that storm and ocean during the final boss

 

[KLOL506]

Ain't sure if this has been brought up B4, but Tishpone uses the exact same energy she uses to create illusions as attacks. Her bird is made entirely of it. I'd say, the moon, sun, and stars as Is real as that storm and ocean during the final boss

Was brought up already.

 

[ByAsura]

But... they are stars.

Cool, and we don't have enough evidence to remotely indicate that they're on the same scale or that they're even literal stars to any extent.

Unless you want to nuke every single other starry sky feat out there? Because then this isn't a GoW issue, it's a sitewide issue.

Already addressed this above.

What reason is there to assume we don't know?

What reason is there to assume we do? Once again, the profile is making the claim that they are stars on this scale, so the burden of proof that these are fully-fledged stars in a light-years wide region of space isn't on me.

More so it seems you aren't convinced with the evidences we've provided.

There is no evidence. You're asking me to be convinced when I'm literally being given next to nothing aside from the fact that they look like stars and the cities, mountains and storms are as large as cities, mountains and storms.

There is no massive assumption here, Occam's Razor is literally at play here.

Occam's Razor doesn't support you.

It's either the assumption that they can make stars to begin with/are simply stars because they look like stars, or they just didn't make actual stars. Both are assumptions.

 

[KLOL506]

Cool, and we don't have enough evidence to remotely indicate that they're on the same scale or that they're even literal stars to any extent.

Already addressed this above.

Like I said, affects literally every single other starry sky feat out there.

What reason is there to assume we do?

Simple, Furies have no real reason to fake out the reality warping they use on harming Kratos physically, on making the stars. It'd take an assload of headcanon to assume they make an exception for the starry sky in the background.

Once again, the profile is making the claim that they are stars on this scale, so the burden of proof that these are fully-fledged stars in a light-years wide region of space isn't on me.

Then that's your belief, not mine.

There is no evidence. You're asking me to be convinced when I'm literally being given next to nothing.

Already gave you a big one: They have no logical reason to make it fake in the first place.

But if you still won't accept that then I don't know what else to say.

Occam's Razor doesn't support you.

It's either the assumption that they can make stars to begin with, or they just didn't make actual stars. Both are assumptions.

Dude. We literally see the stars being made alongside the nightsky, there's no other way to go around it, there are no paintings on walls involved either, just straight up reality warping and pocket dimensional fuckery.

 

[KLOL506]

Cool, and we don't have enough evidence to remotely indicate that they're on the same scale or that they're even literal stars to any extent.

Also this is kind of problematic because the Furies know exactly what stars are and what they look like, function and how big they are. They can already replicate the Sun and Moon which is right within the Mortal Flat Plain's vicinity. They know the stars because they emerged during the Primordial War in a time where the Primordials spawned galaxies left and right in the newly-formed universe. So there's no way in hell they'd replicate the night sky to be something unfathomably smaller than the actual real deal.

 

[ByAsura]

Like I said, affects literally every single other starry sky feat out there.

Like I said, already addressed it.

Already gave you a big one: They have no logical reason to make it fake in the first place.

But if you still won't accept that then I don't know what else to say.

My guy, my homie, you've said this a million times. However, the fact that the Furies personally don't have a logical reason in your mind to fake it in the first place isn't ******* proof at all and still relies on the assumption that they must be real.

We have no evidence that they can do something on this scale to begin with. And it's also like saying that every single pocket dimension feat in existence must be real because no character has any reason to fake stars.

Dude. We literally see the stars being made alongside the nightsky, there's no other way to go around it, there are no paintings on walls involved either, just straight up reality warping and pocket dimensional fuckery.

Cool, not enough evidence.

 

[KLOL506]

My guy, my homie, you've said this a million times. However, the fact that the Furies personally don't have a logical reason in your mind to fake it in the first place isn't ******* proof at all and still relies on the assumption that they must be real.

We have no evidence that they can do something on this scale to begin with. And it's also like saying that every single pocket dimension feat in existence must be real because no character has any reason to fake stars.

Cool, not enough evidence.

Check the other reply I just posted.

 

[ByAsura]

Also this is kind of problematic because the Furies know exactly what stars are and what they look like, function and how big they are.

You've made this exact same argument. It doesn't change the fact that knowing =/= being able to perform such a feat.

They can already replicate the Sun and Moon which is right within the Mortal Flat Plain's vicinity.

Like I said, the same applies to the sun and the moon. We have just as little reason to believe they're real as the stars.

They know the stars because they emerged during the Primordial War in a time where the Primordials spawned galaxies left and right in the newly-formed universe. So there's no way in hell they'd replicate the night sky to be something unfathomably smaller than the actual real deal.

What is this based on? Why, just because they know about stars, would they not make a fabrication? It's a meaningless argument.

 

[KLOL506]

You've made this exact same argument. It doesn't change the fact that knowing =/= being able to perform such a feat.

Like I said, the same applies to the sun and the moon. We have just as little reason to believe they're real as the stars.

I literally made them with reference to the Primordial War stuff.

What is this based on?

Ariel Lawrence blatantly stating that the Primordial War spawned numerous galaxies. Unless you wanna call them not 1:1 as well.

 

[KLOL506]

Why, just because they know about stars, would they not make a fabrication? It's a meaningless argument.

Because it takes way more assumptions that they'd just fake it and making it the exception compared to everything else they make that's tangible and on the same scale as the original.

 

[ByAsura]

Which, again, doesn't ******* matter.

In and of itself, it's also an evidenceless assumption to assume that they'd make it accurate just because they were birthed by Ouranous and know about cosmology.