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God of War: Ragnarok Discussion Thread

Diamentus said:
Does anyone know where the novel quote of Zeus shaking the universe by shaking his head is?
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Not with his head, but his voice.

“The Sisters are dead,” Kratos said, advancing on Zeus.

“Dead? Impossible! They control destiny. They—” Zeus rocked back, face skyward as he vented his ire with a roar that shook the foundations of the world. “They favored us Olympians over the Titans and allowed me to punish Cronos for his transgressions.” Storms danced in the mighty god’s beard, dark clouds swirling about turbulently. He turned to the Ghost of Sparta, searching for evidence of a lie. Then he smiled at Kratos with a touch of appreciation. The smile turned into a sneer. - God of War II Novel, Chapter 49
 
KLOL506 said:
Not with his head, but his voice.

“The Sisters are dead,” Kratos said, advancing on Zeus.

“Dead? Impossible! They control destiny. They—” Zeus rocked back, face skyward as he vented his ire with a roar that shook the foundations of the world. “They favored us Olympians over the Titans and allowed me to punish Cronos for his transgressions.” Storms danced in the mighty god’s beard, dark clouds swirling about turbulently. He turned to the Ghost of Sparta, searching for evidence of a lie. Then he smiled at Kratos with a touch of appreciation. The smile turned into a sneer. - God of War II Novel, Chapter 49
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Thanks, man. Thought it was his head, as I recalled someone saying that he could shake his head and it'd shake the universe.
 
KLOL506 said:
Not with his head, but his voice.

“The Sisters are dead,” Kratos said, advancing on Zeus.

“Dead? Impossible! They control destiny. They—” Zeus rocked back, face skyward as he vented his ire with a roar that shook the foundations of the world. “They favored us Olympians over the Titans and allowed me to punish Cronos for his transgressions.” Storms danced in the mighty god’s beard, dark clouds swirling about turbulently. He turned to the Ghost of Sparta, searching for evidence of a lie. Then he smiled at Kratos with a touch of appreciation. The smile turned into a sneer. - God of War II Novel, Chapter 49
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I like stuff like this, that shows how despite everything Zeus was probably proud of the levels of power Kratos had reached.
 
KLOL506 said:
Which Kratos? Because Artbook and official blog state she's equal to Ragnarok Kratos.
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Norse Saga (Ragnarok) Kratos.
What Hop thought was that material like artbooks are considered a secondary source in terms of canon for GoW, as officials like Cory Barlog and the games themselves are primary canon, if Hop recalls correctly.

There is also a pure contradiction for in-game feats. She did not, and could not stop Kratos from killing Baldur, despite her best efforts in GoW 2018. In Ragnarok, she only had Kratos at knifepoint because he stopped fighting back by choice when he noticed the Valkyrie he was fighting was her in uniform. Until that lore/cutscene moment, the player, as they do in all fights, has the ability to defeat any foe outside of PIS. There are characters in-verse that are stronger than Freya that Kratos has endured and defeated, so Hop is not certain external material entirely is reliable for this statement. When Hop says far weaker, it is not a matter of a number of tiers, but in the same tier of strength, Kratos is far above her. This is further supported when a player allows Kratos to die in-game, and Freya (as an ally) will exclaim "We can't do this without you, Kratos!" which implies Freya is not as capable nor confident in going forward alone, due to needing him (for the sake of combat if nothing other).
 
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
Norse Saga (Ragnarok) Kratos.
What Hop thought was that material like artbooks are considered a secondary source in terms of canon for GoW, as officials like Cory Barlog and the games themselves are primary canon, if Hop recalls correctly.

There is also a pure contradiction for in-game feats. She did not, and could not stop Kratos from killing Baldur, despite her best efforts in GoW 2018. In Ragnarok, she only had Kratos at knifepoint because he stopped fighting back by choice when he noticed the Valkyrie he was fighting was her in uniform. Until that lore/cutscene moment, the player, as they do in all fights, has the ability to defeat any foe outside of PIS. There are characters in-verse that are stronger than Freya that Kratos has endured and defeated, so Hop is not certain external material entirely is reliable for this statement. When Hop says far weaker, it is not a matter of a number of tiers, but in the same tier of strength, Kratos is far above her. This is further supported when a player allows Kratos to die in-game, and Freya (as an ally) will exclaim "We can't do this without you, Kratos!" which implies Freya is not as capable nor confident in going forward alone, due to needed him (for the sake of combat if nothing other).
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2018 Freya was her at her absolute weakest though, so that wouldn't really be a good indicator of anything. And even then, her magic could somewhat restrain an admittedly very rusty Kratos.

How many characters in the game setting are that much stronger than her? Like, the only main story bosses we've fought with her are Odin and Nidhogg. Even then she holds her own very, very well. All the Valkyries revered her for her power as per Mimir's words, which included Sigrun, who Kratos acknowledges as the deadliest opponent he's faced on his journey with Atreus, Baldur included.

And using death dialogue for scaling when it can be said while losing to a Draugr is asinine for obvious reasons.
 
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
What Hop thought was that material like artbooks are considered a secondary source in terms of canon for GoW, as officials like Cory Barlog and the games themselves are primary canon, if Hop recalls correctly.
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Incorrect. WoG is tertiary canon, it is merely used to clarify what already exists in the secondary and primary canons.

Artbooks, Guidebooks, novel adaptations and official sony blogs would be secondary canon.

Comics, Games and official interviews are Primary Canon.

Planck already responded to your other points so I don't have to speak much on that hopefully.
 
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KLOL506 said:
Incorrect. WoG is tertiary canon, it is merely used to clarify what already exists in the secondary and primary canons.

Artbooks, Guidebooks, novel adaptations and official sony blogs would be secondary canon.

Comics, Games and official interviews are Primary Canon.

Planck already responded to your other points so I don't have to speak much on that hopefully.
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Oh, thank you. Hop saw conflicting interpretations of what evidence and canon supersedes what.
 
Not talking about you Hop but speaking generally, what gives the idea that Freya is particularly that much weaker than Thor and Kratos level opponents? Like, she'd be dead if she couldn't hard stalemate Odin despite a far shittier army lol.

Yeah, a bloodlusted Ragnarok Kratos stands a very good chance at beating her and End of III Kratos would send her to Baldur with little trouble but that's just Kratos being built different.
 
Planck69 said:
How many characters in the game setting are that much stronger than her? Like, the only main story bosses we've fought with her are Odin and Nidhogg. Even then she holds her own very, very well. All the Valkyries revered her for her power as per Mimir's words, which included Sigrun, who Kratos acknowledges as the deadliest opponent he's faced on his journey with Atreus, Baldur included.
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Well, Hop is open to start a conversation about that.

"How many" is a strange question and argument. Let's just say who. Thor for instance. If Odin needed brute strength, why utilize Thor, if he already had Freya and the Valkyries? (To be fair, Hop is not asking in a real life lore friendly sense, only in-game). Skipping that point, if Odin waited the entire timeskip from GoW 2018 to Ragnarok before directly confronting Kratos for his actions, why did do so at that point? Hop doesn't think that this is evidence that he "was counting on Freya to kill Kratos" in the mean time. If she was entirely capable, she may have (obviously that creates a story no fan would like). The time gap later in Ragnarok is far more brief that than that between both games. That would mean Freya has a sudden leap in power without explanation. It is directly stated through the game that she has made several attempts during that timeskip without success, when Kratos actively did not fight back. Weakened or not, she lacks the ability to keep him down by evidence of the plot. It is strange that he would keep escaping or evading her when he refuses to abandon his home in Midgard, which is clearly near her home and areas she frequents.

Offscreen, there was no clear indication that we could use to gauge how much stronger Freya became between Atreus (with Sindri) meeting her, and her battle with Kratos as a Valkyrie. While it is clear that Freya on her own is mighty, in-game there is no full power bout (feats) or stated dialogue between her and Kratos where they openly contest each other, not any that Hop recalls. From a gameplay standpoint this is also kind of true, for what it's worth.

When they do fight for the final time, Kratos does not clearly admit defeat in the face of her strength, only that he refused to knowingly fight her from that point forward. This is seen in their conversation in Vanahiem, before working together from the Níðhöggr fight onward. Aside from combat mechanics, she doesn't openly become stronger via feats or dialogue, even into the post-game.

For strength comparisons, we are going by scaling and statements. Speaking of statements, being revered is different from being truly more powerful than someone. Mimir does speak in a serious fashion in GoW 2018 about her in the past, so he wouldn't really "play it up" when speaking to Kratos and Atreus. For instance, Odin married Freya only to gain knowledge of her Vanir powers (the realm she's from), not because he could not defeat her. Just like the Jotun, if they were powerful but not subordinate, Odin would destroy them. Mimir states the Vanir and Aesir were near equal. Not Freya and and particular other gods, such as Thor or Odin. There may be a case Baldur is stronger, since he is near Kratos in power. While we can't outright say Kratos would have defeated Odin solo, for story reasons, he still may have been within his might to without Freya and Atreus with him, given he has defeats similar patriarchs of pantheons before.

All said, the clarification on the canon hierarchy does mean Hop will have to reconsider what events/statements override which. Hop has only engaged with the game. Hop just completed a playthrough of the game and is about to 100% it for the platinum trophy.
 
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
Well, Hop is open to start a conversation about that.

"How many" is a strange question and argument. Let's just say who. Thor for instance. If Odin needed brute strength, why utilize Thor, if he already had Freya and the Valkyries? (To be fair, Hop is not asking in a real life lore friendly sense, only in-game).
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I'm not sure how to respond to this. Freya was coveted for her powerful magics and warrior's spirit and the Valkyries were vital in building Odin's armies and keeping the Nine Realms stable. And my main point was that even with Thor and his einherjar at his disposal, he could only force a stalemate with the Vanir, whose notable warriors were mostly Freya, Freyr and Gna at that point.
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
Skipping that point, if Odin waited the entire timeskip from GoW 2018 to Ragnarok before directly confronting Kratos for his actions, why did do so at that point? Hop doesn't think that this is evidence that he "was counting on Freya to kill Kratos" in the mean time.
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I don't think he counted on that. Was there anything implying this?
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
If she was entirely capable, she may have (obviously that creates a story no fan would like). The time gap later in Ragnarok is far more brief that than that between both games. That would mean Freya has a sudden leap in power without explanation.
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.....No? Odin sealed her up and took away her ability to fight. With Sigrun's help and the fact that Fimbulwinter weakened the magics of all the Nine Realms including her curses, she was able to break most of them bar the one that kept her in Midgard. She says so herself.
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
It is directly stated through the game that she has made several attempts during that timeskip without success, when Kratos actively did not fight back. Weakened or not, she lacks the ability to keep him down by evidence of the plot. It is strange that he would keep escaping or evading her when he refuses to abandon his home in Midgard, which is clearly near her home and areas she frequents.
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I'm not sure how this changes anything? Kratos is her match as a warrior but he's a lot more experienced in fighting equal or stronger opponents than almost any god alive. Him being able to keep her away for that long is indicative of his skill and ability more than anything. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point.
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
Offscreen, there was no clear indication that we could use to gauge how much stronger Freya became between Atreus (with Sindri) meeting her, and her battle with Kratos as a Valkyrie. While it is clear that Freya on her own is mighty, in-game there is no full power bout (feats) or stated dialogue between her and Kratos where they openly contest each other, not any that Hop recalls. From a gameplay standpoint this is also kind of true, for what it's worth.
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She doesn't really get stronger in that time. Kratos had 3 years to get used to her tactics and while Atreus isn't her match, he's no slouch as far as support goes.
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
When they do fight for the final time, Kratos does not clearly admit defeat in the face of her strength, only that he refused to knowingly fight her from that point forward. This is seen in their conversation in Vanahiem, before working together from the Níðhöggr fight onward. Aside from combat mechanics, she doesn't openly become stronger via feats or dialogue, even into the post-game.
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This wouldn't be a contradiction to them being stated to be equals. You can lose fights with equal, slightly stronger or slightly weaker opponents due to being careless. I don't even disagree with you here, it's just that this doesn't work as a disqualifier for both statements.
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
For strength comparisons, we are going by scaling and statements. Speaking of statements, being revered is different from being truly more powerful than someone. Mimir does speak in a serious fashion in GoW 2018 about her in the past, so he wouldn't really "play it up" when speaking to Kratos and Atreus.
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"As a powerful Vanir goddess, they revered her."

"There has only been one Queen of the Valkyries, the goddess Freya."

"This queen, she is stronger than the others?"
"That's putting it mildly."

To me at least, the implication would be reverence for strength.
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
For instance, Odin married Freya only to gain knowledge of her Vanir powers (the realm she's from), not because he could not defeat her.
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It was both. She was his deadliest enemy and he coveted her magics. Freya calls it a stalemate even in the night before Ragnarok.
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
Just like the Jotun, if they were powerful but not subordinate, Odin would destroy them. Mimir states the Vanir and Aesir were near equal. Not Freya and and particular other gods, such as Thor or Odin.
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I hope you realize that any notable power gap would've just had her be killed or captured and her armies routed? We see that the moment she left, the Aesir overran Vanaheim with little trouble.
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
There may be a case Baldur is stronger, since he is near Kratos in power. While we can't outright say Kratos would have defeated Odin solo, for story reasons, he still may have been within his might to without Freya and Atreus with him, given he has defeats similar patriarchs of pantheons before.
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Kratos was out-of-shape and rusty as per the novels, in-game dialogue, the director himself stating so and the official game blogs. Even then, the moment the curse wore off, the novel confirms that Kratos would've turned Baldur's bones to splinters if he gave into his wrath.

As for whether or not he could beat Odin on his own, I'm not sure. But the help that she gave in that fight was not negligible.
 
The_one_you_least_expect said:
you know, shouldn’t current kratos technically scale above the power of hope at this point since a holding back Thor’s blows we’re as strong as any kratos has felt?
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xd-meme.gif
 
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