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No ******* way lmfao what a question
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God of War: Ragnarok Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Hellbeast
- Start date
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Or I guess it would be the power of fear mb
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Ok is anyone gonna actually answer my question or?
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We already addressed the statement in his page iirc, so it wouldn’t upscale him to his PoH self.
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Conceptual bullshit > Thor anyday
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Ok then what about the PoF
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Nope. Great Evils (Fear is the strongest) scale above the entire verse. Power of Hope scales even higher than that.
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Nope.
Read the Thor statement again, it as strong as he has felt in the past battles. Which gives it a range of options to scale, not the strongest force automatically.
The concepts still take narrative importance over gods scaling here and there. And even with that, Kratos stopping to hold back more or less bullies Thor without being bloodlusted which is also a big factor for Kratos's strength.
Kratos's held back version is considered inferior to even his past self.
Held back Kratos <<< Full Power <<< Bloodlusted.
GoW3 Kratos is the bloodlusted one.
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Well, I'm pretty sure Norse Kratos is stronger than GOW3 Kratos, just not near PoH.
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No. Norse Kratos is dead equal to GoW3 Kratos solely in terms of physical stats ONLY WHEN GOING ALL OUT. All those statements and blogs we have sifted through are damning evidence of it.
Ultimately though, it wouldn't matter. GoW3 Endgame Pre-Hope Kratos is literally his best self. Way better and much more responsive Accelerated Development, way more equipment and way more hax in his arsenal to boot.
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But it was 3Kratos who destroyed the god's, which was what Thor was making a callback to.
PoH is something no one outside of Zeus and Athena even know about. So we cannot assume that Norse Gods are making comparisons to PoH.
PoH is something no one outside of Zeus and Athena even know about. So we cannot assume that Norse Gods are making comparisons to PoH.
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I mean he litterly says “any I have felt” so I’m pretty sure that would apply to the strongest force as well
wouldn’t they only take precedent over the Greek saga? I don’t see what that has to do with kratos’s dura
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There's also the fact that Kratos often overestimates his opponents in relation to himself.
Like early 2018 Kratos thought Baldur was strongest God he faced, when the real reason was that his opinion was skewed because of him slacking off.
So with that in mind, Kratos saying Thor has blow as strong as any he faced in past is nothing impressive.
Like early 2018 Kratos thought Baldur was strongest God he faced, when the real reason was that his opinion was skewed because of him slacking off.
So with that in mind, Kratos saying Thor has blow as strong as any he faced in past is nothing impressive.
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Nope, it doesn't. It's in explicit reference to the blows from the strongest gods he's weathered from... while he's in that held-back state. That's why the first fight means ****-all in terms of scaling, the real fight begins in the final rematch, where it is visibly obvious who the real man of the match is.
What the hell are you talking about? There is nothing here that would take precedence because it's not calling Thor "the strongest force", it's calling them "as strong as any I have felt", not that they're the strongest he's felt in his entire life. Wording and context matters here massively, dude didn't even have his Blades of Chaos on him which are straight up acknowledged to be stronger than the Leviathan Axe and Mjolnir by Brok, and even the BoC is straight up fodder to actual premium-grade Olympian weaponry like the Blade of Artemis and Blade of Olympus.
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The concepts are basically similar in importance to Yggdrasil in Norse. Hell even then Yggdrasil is fodder to Norse Gods while Concepts are elusive and stronger to Greece gods.
What has Kratos's dura got to do with anything?
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Not just that, it was also because Kratos hasn't dealt with powers like Baldur's in centuries, but the immediate moment he gives in to his Rage, Baldur almost never stands a chance, in the novel alone Kratos threatens to reduce his bones to splinters by letting himself give in into his rage the moment the curse wears off.
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Yup, the damned immortality
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Invulnerable to all threats, physical or magical.
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At this point, trying to argue Norse > Greek or Thor > Kratos is complete and utter tomfoolery deserving nothing but incredible ridicule and rejection given the mountains of evidence we have at this point. Anyone thinking otherwise is just huffing on copium at this point.
*We have multiple official statements from interviews and blogs of Kratos holding back on his true dormant powers he used to murder the Greek Pantheon, save for Power of Hope, that he is rusty and has massively slacked off on training and isn't himself in 2018, nowhere near the powerhouse he was in Greece.
*Novel states Norse Kratos to be way less muscular than his Greek self
*Norse Kratos has none of his magic from his Greek days.
*Blades of Chaos are stronger than both the Leviathan Axe and Mjolnir
*Greek Sisters of Fate are literally fairy-tale-like in the Norse pantheon, nobody wields even a shred of their powers, not even the Norns, making them a force to be truly reckoned with
*Kratos whups Thor's ass in the rematch and brushes off a full-powered, enraged blow to the head from Thor with Mjolnir, and Kratos literally ragdolls him to make him see reason.
*Kratos effortlessly shrugs off being stabbed through the abdomen by Odin with Gungnir, where previously before it literally one-shotted Thor. Before anyone uses the "weakened" argument, Kratos and Thor fought for equally-long periods.
*We have multiple official statements from interviews and blogs of Kratos holding back on his true dormant powers he used to murder the Greek Pantheon, save for Power of Hope, that he is rusty and has massively slacked off on training and isn't himself in 2018, nowhere near the powerhouse he was in Greece.
*Novel states Norse Kratos to be way less muscular than his Greek self
*Norse Kratos has none of his magic from his Greek days.
*Blades of Chaos are stronger than both the Leviathan Axe and Mjolnir
*Greek Sisters of Fate are literally fairy-tale-like in the Norse pantheon, nobody wields even a shred of their powers, not even the Norns, making them a force to be truly reckoned with
*Kratos whups Thor's ass in the rematch and brushes off a full-powered, enraged blow to the head from Thor with Mjolnir, and Kratos literally ragdolls him to make him see reason.
*Kratos effortlessly shrugs off being stabbed through the abdomen by Odin with Gungnir, where previously before it literally one-shotted Thor. Before anyone uses the "weakened" argument, Kratos and Thor fought for equally-long periods.
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"As heavy as any I've ever felt" is not a definitive statement of Thor being the strongest god he's faced, just on that ballpark.
We see Kratos defeat him soundly the final time. And the only time Thor experienced a taste of the Bane of Olympus was that brief moment in their first fight where one punch sends his tooth flying and rarattles him.
Heck, he beat Thor while lacking the weapons, magics and even the soul of Hades he had back when he fought Zeus. Him surpassing his Power of Hope self is asinine.
We see Kratos defeat him soundly the final time. And the only time Thor experienced a taste of the Bane of Olympus was that brief moment in their first fight where one punch sends his tooth flying and rarattles him.
Heck, he beat Thor while lacking the weapons, magics and even the soul of Hades he had back when he fought Zeus. Him surpassing his Power of Hope self is asinine.
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Norse > Power of Hope is the funniest shit I've ever seen in my entire life NGL. Almost as hilarious as Draugr > Greek Pantheon.
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Yes. Yes he does. Gungnir doesn't even make Kratos flinch that much, Kratos literally hurls him to the side. And remember, Kratos still isn't redlining like he did with Heimdall.
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Which would include fear Zeus, I don’t see why him holding back would make him dictate someone’s power lvl
I was talking about concepts, never said he was the strongest just that he would be comparable to the strongest force kratos has felt.
Dosen’t Yggdrasil contain concepts?
decding how powerful something is
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Hop does not know how to segregate quotes in a reply but to make it simple, Hop can answer your questions in order. As disclaimer, the games are Hop's only point of contact with the series and has no interest in pursuing the additional material, or WoG statements. There is no interest and it would take more time than Hop has. If you want to entertain the conversation with that in mind, Hop does have more to share.
We'll make the first one a two-fer.
"I don't think he counted on that. Was there anything implying this?" & ".....No? Odin sealed her up and took away her ability to fight. With Sigrun's help and the fact that Fimbulwinter weakened the magics of all the Nine Realms including her curses, she was able to break most of them bar the one that kept her in Midgard. She says so herself."
Hop's point was not that Odin counted on Freya defeating Kratos. Hop did delete a point from it to flow better, but the original quote was meant to elaborate on the fact that Odin's inaction during Fimbulwinter regarding Kratos was illogical from a plot perspective. What did he need to do for 3 years before sending Thor in? What was he going to do in 3 years that he didn't for the thousands he already lived? Essentially, Hop's omitted comment was to connect the point that several characters wanted Kratos out of the picture. How it was accomplished did not matter. Whether Kratos and Atreus continued with inaction for all of Fimbulwinter, or Freya succeeds in her revenge, which she has every intention to do. At the start of Ragnarok, her powers have been returning due to the weakening of the curse and she was training/preparing actively, but she continues to fail. Thor nearly defeats Kratos, in his first fight with a man he hasn't met, a post-game GoW 2018 Kratos. This Kratos that should no longer be rusty, as he is still a god killing machine. To imply he is, and that the main reason he's survives Freya is just "fleeing skill" is outlandish to Hop. This is more of a plot device than a statement of true capability, Kratos isn't some escape artist, he is a warrior of an elite caliber. The ultimate point of this is that Santa Monica wanted Atreus to leave by the post-game and have to give Kratos someone to supplement his role. It was easier to do this with her character than some other solution in their eyes.
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"I'm not sure how this changes anything? Kratos is her match as a warrior but he's a lot more experienced in fighting equal or stronger opponents than almost any god alive. Him being able to keep her away for that long is indicative of his skill and ability more than anything. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point."
Well, Kratos is not doing anything special from what we see to get away from Freya. He is an experienced fighter, not a fleer. Match as a warrior? While she is a fighter, Freya is shown only to be capable of catching him over and over, not coming to epic blows like Baldur and Hercules did. Further, Atreus and Kratos state right as they're fending her off, that she never gives up easily. She is clearly bloodlusted, yet barely doing anything significant to someone that isn't even fighting her. There's several instances of this stated, with the one she had her best chance at shown at the start of Ragnarok.
You don't misunderstand, but it does change how strong they want to display her as, for us to interpret or observe. Now that is not to say Freya outright can't ever do it, but she can only succeed in the event Kratos (the player) literally does nothing to stop her. Like a typical Draugr or something defeating you for gameplay reasons, the devs have to implement a fail state. If that segment of the intro to Ragnarok was solely a cinematic, the idea they'd show off that she could "kill" Kratos is a stretch. They are only including it to kick the story off and set up her arc later. If they really wanted to, they'd sell us on it further, like they did with Kratos' prior fights with other gods that are his "match as a warrior" in any regard. Hop does agree she is leaving more than a scratch, but never once did the game display raw concrete evidence of feats where Kratos is struggling or on the backfoot with her. Even if you take into account failing the quick time event, she gives you a mere sliver of damage. A kill strike and she whiffs it, at any in-game difficulty.
It's all a plot setup for when she joins them later, not a genuine threat to Kratos and his well being. If he tried, a post-GoW 2018 version of him should be beyond capable. To support this point, she does not possess anything so overwhelming that foes from any of the other games does not that would be a "gotcha" for him. Strength included. In the GoWverse, it sounds like the statements are just amp her up, as no Norse mythology source Hop knows of quotes that she is a Valkyrie of unmatched power. That's just something Santa Monica appears to have come up with. Unless there's a source that debunks this.
Freya's feats are nearly all talk, there's little she does that displays Kratos-level strength. Her combat skills were always display as wrapping roots around enemies or killing fodder that Atreus could handle, by himself. As far as gameplay is concerned, Gna and possibly Sigrun surpassed her, and those are just the Valkyries. Any high-level kills she performs are due to hax, such as closing the rift portal on Níðhöggr, rather than directly killing it. If Kratos had the strength to hold it back, and she's at his level (or even slightly under it) why did she resort to that instead of another attack? Why then, especially when it was even weakened, clearly on the ropes? She's the character that even points that out in the fight. Excluding even that, Hop's point is that Freya just isn't as strong as Kratos. The argument she's on even footing is lore-based hype, not demonstrated in-game. Even if so, they are wildly inconsistent, on the verge of outliers. Any counter points you have are going to require more evidence rather than conjecture you garner from statements made by characters in passing.
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Everything else is pretty much what it is. No further comment from Hop on that.
We'll make the first one a two-fer.
"I don't think he counted on that. Was there anything implying this?" & ".....No? Odin sealed her up and took away her ability to fight. With Sigrun's help and the fact that Fimbulwinter weakened the magics of all the Nine Realms including her curses, she was able to break most of them bar the one that kept her in Midgard. She says so herself."
Hop's point was not that Odin counted on Freya defeating Kratos. Hop did delete a point from it to flow better, but the original quote was meant to elaborate on the fact that Odin's inaction during Fimbulwinter regarding Kratos was illogical from a plot perspective. What did he need to do for 3 years before sending Thor in? What was he going to do in 3 years that he didn't for the thousands he already lived? Essentially, Hop's omitted comment was to connect the point that several characters wanted Kratos out of the picture. How it was accomplished did not matter. Whether Kratos and Atreus continued with inaction for all of Fimbulwinter, or Freya succeeds in her revenge, which she has every intention to do. At the start of Ragnarok, her powers have been returning due to the weakening of the curse and she was training/preparing actively, but she continues to fail. Thor nearly defeats Kratos, in his first fight with a man he hasn't met, a post-game GoW 2018 Kratos. This Kratos that should no longer be rusty, as he is still a god killing machine. To imply he is, and that the main reason he's survives Freya is just "fleeing skill" is outlandish to Hop. This is more of a plot device than a statement of true capability, Kratos isn't some escape artist, he is a warrior of an elite caliber. The ultimate point of this is that Santa Monica wanted Atreus to leave by the post-game and have to give Kratos someone to supplement his role. It was easier to do this with her character than some other solution in their eyes.
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"I'm not sure how this changes anything? Kratos is her match as a warrior but he's a lot more experienced in fighting equal or stronger opponents than almost any god alive. Him being able to keep her away for that long is indicative of his skill and ability more than anything. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point."
Well, Kratos is not doing anything special from what we see to get away from Freya. He is an experienced fighter, not a fleer. Match as a warrior? While she is a fighter, Freya is shown only to be capable of catching him over and over, not coming to epic blows like Baldur and Hercules did. Further, Atreus and Kratos state right as they're fending her off, that she never gives up easily. She is clearly bloodlusted, yet barely doing anything significant to someone that isn't even fighting her. There's several instances of this stated, with the one she had her best chance at shown at the start of Ragnarok.
You don't misunderstand, but it does change how strong they want to display her as, for us to interpret or observe. Now that is not to say Freya outright can't ever do it, but she can only succeed in the event Kratos (the player) literally does nothing to stop her. Like a typical Draugr or something defeating you for gameplay reasons, the devs have to implement a fail state. If that segment of the intro to Ragnarok was solely a cinematic, the idea they'd show off that she could "kill" Kratos is a stretch. They are only including it to kick the story off and set up her arc later. If they really wanted to, they'd sell us on it further, like they did with Kratos' prior fights with other gods that are his "match as a warrior" in any regard. Hop does agree she is leaving more than a scratch, but never once did the game display raw concrete evidence of feats where Kratos is struggling or on the backfoot with her. Even if you take into account failing the quick time event, she gives you a mere sliver of damage. A kill strike and she whiffs it, at any in-game difficulty.
It's all a plot setup for when she joins them later, not a genuine threat to Kratos and his well being. If he tried, a post-GoW 2018 version of him should be beyond capable. To support this point, she does not possess anything so overwhelming that foes from any of the other games does not that would be a "gotcha" for him. Strength included. In the GoWverse, it sounds like the statements are just amp her up, as no Norse mythology source Hop knows of quotes that she is a Valkyrie of unmatched power. That's just something Santa Monica appears to have come up with. Unless there's a source that debunks this.
Freya's feats are nearly all talk, there's little she does that displays Kratos-level strength. Her combat skills were always display as wrapping roots around enemies or killing fodder that Atreus could handle, by himself. As far as gameplay is concerned, Gna and possibly Sigrun surpassed her, and those are just the Valkyries. Any high-level kills she performs are due to hax, such as closing the rift portal on Níðhöggr, rather than directly killing it. If Kratos had the strength to hold it back, and she's at his level (or even slightly under it) why did she resort to that instead of another attack? Why then, especially when it was even weakened, clearly on the ropes? She's the character that even points that out in the fight. Excluding even that, Hop's point is that Freya just isn't as strong as Kratos. The argument she's on even footing is lore-based hype, not demonstrated in-game. Even if so, they are wildly inconsistent, on the verge of outliers. Any counter points you have are going to require more evidence rather than conjecture you garner from statements made by characters in passing.
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Everything else is pretty much what it is. No further comment from Hop on that.
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Well duh Draugr can kill Kratos in gameplay thus Draugr can one shot every Greek God and is hyperversal
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Fear Zeus one-shotted him, the **** are you on about?
No, it is in explicit reference to blows Kratos has weathered and survived prior to ripping out Hades' Souls. Bringing concepts into the equation are out of the question here, they're no longer relevant. Plus they're completely uncharted territory that only Zeus and Athena have any knowledge of.
Containing concepts alone means ****-all in terms of power if you have no actual feats.
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Ya and it’s a blow he felt, the **** are you talking about?
The hell are you talking about? His only talking about Thor’s power and bloodlust
my point is they don’t seem to be as much as a big deal in the Norse world(more on the narrative side of things)
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Yeah and? He didn't call it "the strongest", he called it being "as strong as any I have felt", no "ever felt" in it either. That too while ******* HOLDING BACK and not even having his Blades of Chaos on him. Thor was holding back too. If that doesn't scream "underestimation" to you, IDK what will.
And it's not in comparison to the Great Evils or even Fear itself. That's completely uncharted territory that only Zeus and Athena know of.
Which of course, is hilariously wrong for all the reasons and points I have mentioned. And of course, we have Kratos mollywhopping Thor in the final rematch, and Mimir himself pleads to Kratos to stay in control against Thor.
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Cool, I never said kratos stated Thor was the strongest force his gone up agianst only that Thor would be comparable to it. Please tell me what kratos holding back has to do with him judging Thor’s power lvl.
Huh? That statement is in relation to any and all things that have hit kratos which would include fear Zeus regardless of how high they are in the verse
Um ok, my whole point here is that kratos should probably scale to or above the PoF via Thor (not hope cuz I misremembered stuff)
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A lot. Kratos overestimates his foes way too much and will absolutely go out of his way to find the fastest possible way to stop a fight, especially given his current stance on godkilling. If this was his GoW3 self, Thor wouldn't even get the chance to blink.
And based on the statement the only thing Thor will be comparable to is Poseidon, Hades and Ares, as those are the strongest foes he's weathered blows from and survived to fight on in his current held-back "Immortal Demigod Strength" phase prior to obtaining Hades' soul for himself.
No, it is explicitly in relation to the strongest things Kratos has weathered blows from and survived to keep on fighting them, especially with his held-back state. CONTEXT MATTERS IN THIS CASE HEAVILY.
Yeah no this is peak reaching, Kratos literally gave a taste of his true power to Thor and the latter immediately ****** off. Kratos whupped his ass in the rematch and is still nowhere near close to that kind of redlining anywhere in the entire Norse duology ever again.
No. He won't. This isn't even up for discussion at this point on any metric whatsoever. Nobody in GoW scales above the Great Evils, let alone Fear, except for PoH Kratos himself. Scaling Kratos to the second-most powerful force of nature in the entire verse with such flimsy reasoning having its neck clamped down by a mountain of evidence against it? Laughable at best, copium at worst.
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Norse Kratos is never scaling above Fear Zeus wtf lol.
Thor's the only concrete reason he even scales to his III self.
"As heavy as any I've felt" is nebulous as all hell. But what really baffles me is that even if he did say "strongest".... it'd be nothing changing.
He no longer has the power of the Titans, The powers of the God of War, the weapons he knicked from the Olympians and the souls of Hades and the other Titans within himself.
The novel, director, blogs, and interviews deny him being stronger than he ever was. And Thor himself considered Kratos a lesser version until he briefly cut loose.
Thor being as strong as any he's felt also takes into account that Kratos is operating at a far lower power gap over his opponents than he's ever had. Of course the blows would rattle him more comparatively.
A one-off statement with no context analysed is how you get stuff like "Freya > Ascendant Athena" cause Kratos could think of no more formidable ally.
Thor's the only concrete reason he even scales to his III self.
"As heavy as any I've felt" is nebulous as all hell. But what really baffles me is that even if he did say "strongest".... it'd be nothing changing.
He no longer has the power of the Titans, The powers of the God of War, the weapons he knicked from the Olympians and the souls of Hades and the other Titans within himself.
The novel, director, blogs, and interviews deny him being stronger than he ever was. And Thor himself considered Kratos a lesser version until he briefly cut loose.
Thor being as strong as any he's felt also takes into account that Kratos is operating at a far lower power gap over his opponents than he's ever had. Of course the blows would rattle him more comparatively.
A one-off statement with no context analysed is how you get stuff like "Freya > Ascendant Athena" cause Kratos could think of no more formidable ally.
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you guys should give pokemonfan the power of hope, it would be a great thing
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Since when? The only time I could think of him maybe overestimating someone was with baldur but that was when kratos was rusty as hell and even then that was in relation to his invunarabilty . Ragnarok kratos had to contact fight of freya and was always training
He litterly survived a blow from fear Zeus before having his neck broke besdies it states “any” blow so it doesn’t matter
ok? That doesn’t mean much to me
What mountain of evidence exactly?
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Pokémon doesn’t even like Irys so I don’t think we should trust him with Hope.
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He was "fighting off" Freya, not literally fighting to kill her.
LMFAO
Fear Zeus kicked Kratos's shit in and whacked his equipment. That's not surviving to fight again, buddy. So yeah, it wouldn't matter to you. We don't allow one-shots in that category.
Also way to enter peak mental gymnastics with the "any" "blow" part while completely ignoring everything that happened in that fight, apart from Thor and Kratos holding back, Thor calling the Kratos he fought a "lesser version" of his Godkiller self, Kratos rocking Thor's shit with a bit of his true power and whatnot, but of course, you wouldn't notice any of that.
Of course it wouldn't, given you've literally ignored the context behind the entire journal entry as well as that of the first fight.
Or the blogs, the interviews, the novel, and even the main director himself blatantly blurting out that Kratos had become insanely rusty and is actively holding back on his dormant powers from his Greek days minus the ones he already lost and can't bring back anymore.
Read Planck's response to your proposal and you'll see for yourself.
I'm gonna say it one last time: Norse Kratos scaling above the Great Evils is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. EVER. Entertaining this notion any further is a fool's errand. So I'd suggest you drop it, because it ain't getting accepted.
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Only in terms of physical stats.
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