God of War magic energy system

[Mr. Bambu]

Just sharing something. Since your original comment where we talked "symbiotic", I have thought about it a lot, but I haven't found a better alternative to replace it.
Obviously I need to reword somethings around it. But I think I'll stick to what I originally said in blog.

Then I will stick to my reply. I do not agree with the interpretations provided therein.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Why are summons and explictly hax stuff like the Oathstone or Eyes of Truth being brought up as evidence here? Like it doesn't disprove anything but I doesn't prove anything either and just feels like padding to an already decently sized blog post about a universal system of magic existing or not ala Naruto or Dragon Ball. I'd recommend excising it and just focusing on your other points since there is much more to work with there and those specific examples are clearly much more hax based then AP.

My intention was to show different magic bars in game doesn't mean there is different kinds of energies in Kratos.
So I introduced that point in blog at Ascension part progressively cited the same point in each game section untill I formed my conclusions at last.
Since I am gonna need to display different inventory in each game and how they are handled to make my case.

I so I don't think we can just yeet it, I'll reword it though.
I'll definitely emphasize on Orkos Stone part.

Disclaimer:- I'll also make clear to everyone that I have no intention to make Haxxes AP based like Dragon Ball or Bleach. Its downright bad and lazy, so I hope nobody wants that.

World Weapons I can concede with mostly; I would note them being able to harm inhumanely strong characters might not be great though. We see even fodder mortals like the Spartans and Icarus are just blatantly superhuman as proven by calculations and from reading we typically take weapon feats as either being the user's raw strength or just the weapon being stronger. Kratos hurting superhumans with fodder weapons would surely just be a feat for him right? That's how we tend to treat most melee weapon users on the wiki and I'm not sure why this verse is operating under separate logic to say it's a magical property of Kratos and the Warriors just passively amping them significantly.

I cover the point about sturdy non-magical weapons via Gladiator Weapons.
My point is, these magic users amplify the strength of weapons beyond what the tool is already capable of.

It doesn't help these things have no anti feats so we're arguing they're being massively amped beyond their normal levels without any showings being used to depict their typical levels. The other stuff for them is fine but that melee weapons part just bothers me a bit. There are outright much better showings of the Warrior outright amping their attacks and abilities with magical artefacts and tablets in the Multiplayer so I have no idea why that specifically isn't being used (I have a collection, pls let me know if you want them)

Well that was expected when I haven't played Ascension and by extension Multiplayer(never had or bothered with owning a PlayStaion), so I don't know everything about it, and Wiki Fandom and YouTube is hardly good source for kind of particular stuff we want.
So any extra stuff you have is very appreciated.

I'm also not a fan of the Gauntlet of Zeus comment; the Gauntlet amps physical power, there's no refutation of that but my issue is still with the speed comment. Outside of this instance there's not really any reason to claim the Gauntlet similarly empowers speed beyond what Kratos himself is capable of and after a look through some cutscenes I can't find anything saying this is just acquired by passively having the Gauntlet in your possession/in the vague Hammerspace where Kratos weapons go when he isn't using them. You can say the Atlas thing is proof enough but it really reeks of sheer outlierdom more then anything more concrete.

Is that a cop out? Maybe, but I'd certainly ask you to collect more stuff on the Gauntlet if OK.

The problem with Chains of Olympus is it lacks any sort of novel or something to explain all of its peculiarities and lore, unlike say GoW1 and 2.

But I think visuals of game get the job done here just as well in case of GoZ. Like many characters on this site just need one or two interactions with a character to scale speed, like even the most smallest factor is considered. What we have is more than enough.

As far as outlier is considered, I don't resort to it unless I absolutely have no choice. I don't think situation is so hopeless for GoZ as to resort to outlier. Like its only once that Kratos jumps from 7B to 2C via weapon, and by end of game its taken back by Athena and Kratos is back to his weak 7B, so I don't see problems.

And I think I can mention other similar cases of passive amps in series when time comes to defend it.

I'm also a bit confused on one thing; you mention the magic and item bars being separate is gameplay mechanics but then use gameplay showings of hurting Persephone with the BOC in her boss fight, the fact GOWIII uses the Blade of Olympus as a super mode and a magic attack and the mana bar existing in gameplay as evidence of your point. While I'd hate to get in to a great big war over gameplay mechanics (this is not the time) this feels oddly pick and choosy; especially when you already have definitive proof of a magical reserve being afforded to Kratos via his own admission in the novels (which you mention here I believe). Again there is much stronger evidence you could be using here and the blog could be streamlined by omitting that stuff.

I think there is some misunderstanding here.
I just explained the inventory/magic/health/Rage system to reader as it is in game before explaining why it shouldn't be case in lore.
Because not everyone has played video games keenly, let alone GoW games at all.
So not everyone is aware of in-game systems.
So that just me explaining them like some sort of game tutorial guy, then I switch to battleborader mode to explain whats the real deal in lore.

The Arms of Sparta is a good example but Deimos is weird. You provide a link mentioning his empowerment of "death vine shackles" but I'm not seeing any statement or confirmation. Could you help me out here? Arms of Sparta is decent evidence but you could argue those were already empowered by Kratos' usage of the weapons; we see that Godly empowered weapons (See any multiplayer weapon) maintains it's powers and capabilities when being used by a mere mortal so why exactly is Deimos using them like Kratos paramount proof of him doing the same thing?

You do have a point on Arms, I'll admit that.
But it also depends on if we believe Kratos should have GoW abilities before Athena gave it to him in the end of the game, thus was able to turn mundane weapons into Godlike weapons.

The Gauntlet thingy has several attacks where Diemos is able to channels magic and perform explosions as part of his moveset against Kratos. Its small stuff, but I thought worth pointing out.

Siren is kinda strange but I need to reread that section of the novel before I comment more.

Kk, its kinda straightforward in my opinion.

I'd also disagree with your point that magic = power for all beings. We see Cyclopes are physically strong enough to be juggernauts and built the foundations of Olympus but there's never any association between them and magical energy I can recall being mentioned. Same kinda

I mean this blog concerns itself with only magic users, so Cyclops is irrelevant here.

If there is an entity without magic who is X strong, then with presence of magic in his body would make him even stronger. That's main focus of blog.

All that said the idea magic is universally applicable does work for the Gods, Demigods and Champions (under our current rules) and I can see it maybe fitting through fairly well under my proposed new guidelines that I'll probs post tomorrow. I'm still not huge on the Furies though but I'll make them a separate post since that's a topic and a half

If we can agree on gods, demigods, Titans, Magic using humans etc, I think we are already at a good start.

I suggest we keep Furies for absolute last on this thread and clear up rest of acceptable stuff.

Also curious about new guidelines.

 

[Hellbeast]

My intention was to show different magic bars in game doesn't mean there is different kinds of energies in Kratos.
So I introduced that point in blog at Ascension part progressively cited the same point in each game section untill I formed my conclusions at last.
Since I am gonna need to display different inventory in each game and how they are handled to make my case.

Ok but none of that makes the argument that stuff is applicable to physicals beyond the Orkos point so it does not need to be there. The best argument is the Claws of Hades soul succ empowering the user but that's it

I so I don't think we can just yeet it, I'll reword it though.
I'll definitely emphasize on Orkos Stone part.

Sounds good

I cover the point about sturdy non-magical weapons via Gladiator Weapons.

My point is, these magic users amplify the strength of weapons beyond what the tool is already capable of.

But that's my point; we have no anti feats for those weapons so why is their feats of harming superhumans like Satyrs and Godly Champions proof the Demigods and co can massively increase the inherent attack potency of the weapons? You'd need to prove the weapons aren't as powerful on their own to then make the argument Demigods are amping them in power

Well that was expected when I haven't played Ascension and by extension Multiplayer(never had or bothered with owning a PlayStaion), so I don't know everything about it, and Wiki Fandom and YouTube is hardly good source for kind of particular stuff we want.
So any extra stuff you have is very appreciated.

• “Death’s Wail” allows the user to buff themselves
• “Relic of Agility” allows the user to double jump and dodge in mid air
• “Relic of Reincarnation” grants additional strength after Ressurrection (prolly gameplay)
• “Relic of Misery” enhances physical power when near death
• “Relic of Harmony” grants user and allies health upon opening multiple chests
• “Relic of Fortune” increases speed after opening chest
• “Relic of Haste” increases speed after magic usage

The problem with Chains of Olympus is it lacks any sort of novel or something to explain all of its peculiarities and lore, unlike say GoW1 and 2.

But I think visuals of game get the job done here just as well in case of GoZ. Like many characters on this site just need one or two interactions with a character to scale speed, like even the most smallest factor is considered. What we have is more than enough.

Not really? Yes characters can be scaled from a few instances but only when it's not got anything against it but this doesn't have that and the argument it isn't is entirely dependant on the concept the Gauntlet amps Kratos' statistics equally

As far as outlier is considered, I don't resort to it unless I absolutely have no choice. I don't think situation is so hopeless for GoZ as to resort to outlier. Like its only once that Kratos jumps from 7B to 2C via weapon, and by end of game its taken back by Athena and Kratos is back to his weak 7B, so I don't see problems.

Except the issue isn't the Gauntlet empowering Kratos to the level of Persephone, the issue is the Gauntlet amping his speed to Infinite levels
ngl though it is weird we're arguing the Gauntlet just amps his other weapons circa Gameplay but hey

And I think I can mention other similar cases of passive amps in series when time comes to defend it.

Then why aren't they included curiously? Feel free to include them

I think there is some misunderstanding here.
I just explained the inventory/magic/health/Rage system to reader as it is in game before explaining why it shouldn't be case in lore.
Because not everyone has played video games keenly, let alone GoW games at all.
So not everyone is aware of in-game systems.
So that just me explaining them like some sort of game tutorial guy, then I switch to battleborader mode to explain whats the real deal in lore.

You do have a point on Arms, I'll admit that.
But it also depends on if we believe Kratos should have GoW abilities before Athena gave it to him in the end of the game, thus was able to turn mundane weapons into Godlike weapons.

We seem to currently treat Ghost of Sparta Kratos as just the God of War (which i disagree with). I'm fine with certain stuff like that and an empowered Healing Factor being godly abilities he possesses but with his other stuff being it's own tabber

The Gauntlet thingy has several attacks where Diemos is able to channels magic and perform explosions as part of his moveset against Kratos. Its small stuff, but I thought worth pointing out.



I mean this blog concerns itself with only magic users, so Cyclops is irrelevant here.

Not entirely; you're arguing magic = power in the verse and that it's a central thing all of these creatures run off of which feels weird
I do agree magic strengthens the already strong thoug

If we can agree on gods, demigods, Titans, Magic using humans etc, I think we are already at a good start.

Hey it's decent

I suggest we keep Furies for absolute last on this thread and clear up rest of acceptable stuff.

Yeah looking at the last time we discussed this the Furies are a problem we need to all get together on

Also curious about new guidelines.

I'll post them in a bit and will add a link

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Ok but none of that makes the argument that stuff is applicable to physicals beyond the Orkos point so it does not need to be there. The best argument is the Claws of Hades soul succ empowering the user but that's it

Eehh. You didn't understand. My intention was to show segregation of inventory in game is arbitrary. Different gauges for magic doesn't mean different energies.
That's it.

But that's my point; we have no anti feats for those weapons so why is their feats of harming superhumans like Satyrs and Godly Champions proof the Demigods and co can massively increase the inherent attack potency of the weapons? You'd need to prove the weapons aren't as powerful on their own to then make the argument Demigods are amping them in power

Well technically, non-magic weapons being sturdy means their durability is high, AP is wielder dependent...you know force of swing and such.

Well I think I did that, L1+□,/\ moves and Square charge directly show magic amplification on weapons than what any user is normally capable of swinging purely.

Except the issue isn't the Gauntlet empowering Kratos to the level of Persephone, the issue is the Gauntlet amping his speed to Infinite levels
ngl though it is weird we're arguing the Gauntlet just amps his other weapons circa Gameplay but hey

Same logic honestly, I usually say 2C, 7B as an all-encompassing term for statistics when I refer to Kratos.
Kratos will only be infinite for few hours that he had GoZ in Chains game.
Athena took it and he is back to FTL in GoW1.

Well I directly site scripted event where Kratos uses Light of Dawn beam on Persephone.

Then why aren't they included curiously? Feel free to include them

They are in the blog I'll just need to emphasize it I guess.
I'll make separate post later showing my edit suggestion.

seem to currently treat Ghost of Sparta Kratos as just the God of War (which i disagree with). I'm fine with certain stuff like that and an empowered Healing Factor being godly abilities he possesses but with his other stuff being it's own tabber

I mean we only consider ourselves with absolute peak end game Kratos, so I guess with that in mind...I wouldn't call it in-accurate.

There's also the fact that Kratos loses GoW power in very first scene in GoW2. So its in precarious position.

Not entirely; you're arguing magic = power in the verse and that it's a central thing all of these creatures run off of which feels weird
I do agree magic strengthens the already strong thoug

Then I guess I need to edit it to prevent misunderstanding.

Hey it's decent

Noice

I'll post them in a bit and will add a link

Okay.

 

[Elizhaa]

I shared similar thoughts with UchihaSlayer96.

 

[Hellbeast]

Well technically, non-magic weapons being sturdy means their durability is high, AP is wielder dependent...you know force of swing and such.

True but it's unlikely the weapons would be overwhelmingly more durable then the amount of force they can output

Well I think I did that, L1+□,/\ moves and Square charge directly show magic amplification on weapons than what any user is normally capable of swinging purely.

These are the shockwaves right? The Gauntlets, shields and hammers would just be Shockwaves via Attack Potency. The other world weapons work well enough though; my comment was less about their abilities but more their Attack Potency

Same logic honestly, I usually say 2C, 7B as an all-encompassing term for statistics when I refer to Kratos.
Kratos will only be infinite for few hours that he had GoZ in Chains game.

The period with which he's Infinite is irrelevant; the proof just isn't there that's what we're looking at

Well I directly site scripted event where Kratos uses Light of Dawn beam on Persephone.

Again, the Light has no anti-feats so this would just be a feat for it and not proof the Gauntlet amps Kratos to 2-C levels passively; you could argue the Blades hurting her in Gameplay is evidence but that's a massive stretch imo.
That's all ignoring the idea of Kratos being passively amped kinda implies he'd never need to actually use the Gauntlet but that's a wholly weird concept

They are in the blog I'll just need to emphasize it I guess.
I'll make separate post later showing my edit suggestion.

Sounds good

I mean we only consider ourselves with absolute peak end game Kratos, so I guess with that in mind...I wouldn't call it in-accurate.

True but Kratos has a whole game where he isn't a full God so it feels whack to ignore that and just composite that stuff with his time as a War God in his prime. It'd have a huge impact on the placement of characters like Erinys, Deimos and Thanatos in the verse's scaling; putting them much higher in the tier lists for the series when that may not be representative of their portrayals

(We'll need to have this discussion as it's own thread imo)

There's also the fact that Kratos loses GoW power in very first scene in GoW2. So its in precarious position.

Yeah I would not be against cutting it since he isn't a prime God of War for very long in game

Then I guess I need to edit it to prevent misunderstanding.

Sounds good

 

[Hellbeast]

Also here's a link to my Universal Systems thread; call your friends

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Noice, I'll reply to you later at night.

 

[Planck69]

Going through the blog and skimming the thread, I agree with it applying to the higher tiers like gods, Titans etc. So I agree with UchihaSlayer96.

Sorry for the delay btw. IRL stuff.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

IRL>Battleboarding always

 

[Antvasima]

So what has Uchihaslayer agreed with that we should apply here?

 

[Theglassman12]

As of now we should wait. Hellbeast has a UES CRT up that would apply to most verses. Once that’s done we can cover the remaining stuff here.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So what has Uchihaslayer agreed with that we should apply here?

I would say the CRT is proceeding well, but i think its going to last a wee bit longer to discuss extra stuff and edit the blog.

Also we are waiting of Hellbeast's new standards CRT to be over, he linked above

https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-need-to-talk-about-universal-energy-systems.125760/

,which I am confident we can pass, even Hellbeast has positive opinions mostly.

So I think we should wait a bit.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Bernkastelll]

After quite some time we’ve finally gotten a blog in order. Hopefully this clarifies any and all misconceptions about how god of war’s magic energy system is supposed to work.

Agree: BEASTHEART880, Stefano4444, Deadguy, DaReaperMan, UchihaSlayer90 (on the higher ups scaling), Lightning XXI (same as Uchiha), Darksmash, Aetheric Pariah, Hellbeast (Agrees with the general premise), Elizhaa, Planck

Disagree: Bambu (on magic weapons)

Neutral:

iagree

 

[Hellbeast]

I’d note I’m more positive on Greek Gods If anything; I still think the Runes and Seior need a bit more concrete evidence and I haven’t even gotten to the Furies

 

[Theglassman12]

We have some statements in the God of 4 Lore and Legends book where the enemies use those magic to amplify their strength. So it's not just Greek stuff, Norse stuff has it too.

 

[Stefano4444]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind us with an explanation post about what we need to discuss here, and the conclusions that have been reached so far, in an easy to understand manner please?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Can somebody remind us with an explanation post about what we need to discuss here, and the conclusions that have been reached so far, in an easy to understand manner please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-need-to-talk-about-universal-energy-systems.125760/post-4236595

We need to first create the UES guideline Page according to this thread conclusions.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will check.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah this thread needs to wait for that to be finished since my draft is adding new criteria verses kinda need to fit to qualify

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So.... we can apply this now?

 

[KLOL506]

The UES CRT has long been finished and the page made.

Overall tho, I agree with the general premise with a slight lean on agreeing to the full thing, a few improvements could be made here and there and Gilver and co. were talking about it but it's been so long that I forgot what the improvements needed where.

That being said, most of the links and scans will need to be shifted to the wiki itself or to imgur and then referenced fully. And massive grammar reworks will be needed.

 

[Lilixa]

After re-checking a lot of stuff, I think this is fine.

 

[Antvasima]

So what currently needs to be done here then?

 

[Theglassman12]

just add the blog and we're good

 

[Antvasima]

Isn't it better to create a verse-specific powers and abilities page for "God of War" instead?

 

[KLOL506]

Isn't it better to create a verse-specific powers and abilities page for "God of War" instead?

This isn't really about verse-specific powers and abilities? It's about an energy system and how it works. It'd naturally be an explanation page, but we're not at that part yet where we'd convert Explanation Blogs into Explanation Pages en masse.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if it has been officially accepted, you could probably just make it into a regular verse explanation page instead then. I do not think that we have to turn all of the accepted explanation blogs to regular wiki pages at the same time.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, if it has been officially accepted, you could probably just make it into a regular verse explanation page instead then. I do not thin that we have to turn all of the accepted explanation blogs to regular wiki pages at the same time.

Well, in that case, we'd need to make a draft first and fix all the grammatical mistakes and remove any first-person lines from it to make it appear more professional.

 

[KLOL506]

We would also have to make a brand-new category explicitly for Explanation Pages, as they are significantly distinct from Verse-Specific Powers and Abilities due to the fact that they more often than not discuss the cosmologies of the verse, the inner workings of the verse's mechanics and so on and so forth.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Explanation blogs just explain how any kind system in verse fit into P&A and/or Tiering Systems of wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, in that case, we'd need to make a draft first and fix all the grammatical mistakes and remove any first-person lines from it to make it appear more professional.

Yes, agreed.

We would also have to make a brand-new category explicitly for Explanation Pages, as they are significantly distinct from Verse-Specific Powers and Abilities due to the fact that they more often than not discuss the cosmologies of the verse, the inner workings of the verse's mechanics and so on and so forth.

It seems better to keep the "Explanation Pages" category for regular wiki pages of this type, and replace the category in question with "Explanation Blogs" for all of the (mostly inappropriate) blogs, so we can sort out which of them that should have their content moved to regular official wiki pages, later.

Explanation Pages

vsbattles.fandom.com

@Damage3245

What do you think about this?

 

[Damage3245]

That sounds good to me.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, agreed.

It seems better to keep the "Explanation Pages" category for regular wiki pages of this type, and replace the category in question with "Explanation Blogs" for all of the (mostly inappropriate) blogs, so we can sort out which of them that should have their content moved to regular official wiki pages, later.

Ah, didn't know we already have that. That works too.

 

[KLOL506]

so we can sort out which of them that should have their content moved to regular official wiki pages, later.

As for this part, the easiest way would be to see which blogs have actually been added to the verse page and which ones have most recently been accepted in CRTs. Checking the profiles which have the blogs linked would help too. But that's for another thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Ah, didn't know we already have that. That works too.

We don't already have that category, but I or Damage can create it via a mass-editing script.

As for this part, the easiest way would be to see which blogs have actually been added to the verse page and which ones have most recently been accepted in CRTs. Checking the profiles which have the blogs linked would help too. But that's for another thread.

Yes, but I am afraid that I am too busy to investigate it myself. Would you be willing to create a staff forum thread that asks for help in this regard?

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, but I am afraid that I am too busy to investigate it myself. Would you be willing to create a staff forum thread that asks for help in this regard?

Don't we already have a thread for removing inappropriate categories from blogs that haven't been accepted, and from work-in-progress sandboxes?

As for actually turning currently-accepted Explation Blogs into actual Explanation Pages, that will require an entirely different thread which is simply not in my area of expertise.