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God of War magic energy system

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Mr._Bambu said:
Why would it be impossible, pray tell
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How would you explain Demigod Kratos who is normally 7B, FTL is able to match and compare to Atlas who is 2C,Infinite speed during many instances without use of GoZ?

If we go by your logic, we will end up with FTL Kratos being able to dodge point blank Infinite speed beings even though he was off guard.

And here we have Kratos being able use Helios Shield and Light of Dawn in combination to overwhelm and damage Persephone who is 2C AP, which would be impossible if GoZ alone was that powerful and Kratos was unable to use its power even though its ""holstered".
 
With the Gauntlet I'm 50/50. The gauntlet amping Kratos passively while not using it is a logical explanation and doesn't sound unusual to the God of war universe, however this being an Outlier would be better if he just randomly harmed tier 2s and dodged infinite speeds without any godtier weapon
 
DaReaperMan said:
Gilver, you realize there is this magical thing called an "outlier" right? Or haven't you heard of it?
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BEASTHEART880 said:
With the Gauntlet I'm 50/50. The gauntlet amping Kratos passively while not using it is a logical explanation and doesn't sound unusual to the God of war universe, however this being an Outlier would be better if he just randomly harmed tier 2s and dodged infinite speeds without any godtier weapon
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Even though my blog is filled with examples of this exact same phenomenon verbatim mentioned in GoW1 and GoW2 novel scans I posted, directly mentioning how some magics even when not is use amplify Kratos, because they add to his pool.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Outlier

An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power. Outliers are often regarded as unusable in forums debates. However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power. Outliers are often regarded as unusable in forums debates. However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only very extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable. There are often disagreement regarding exactly what constitutes an outlier, and things that are considered as outliers by some might not be considered as such by everyone. Careful judgement should be used in all cases.
Click to expand...

Outlier is only used when its last choice.
Its not an alternative and can never be.

1)Throwing out outlier response is callous and lazy.
2) Just because we feel uncomfortable about something it doesn't warrant an outlier treatment.
3)We already have on screen proof and other context from side materials.
 
I've been asked to comment here, because of my previous experience in getting chakra from Naruto accepted as a universal energy system with a blog similar to this one.
However, I'd like to preface this by saying that my memory for anything before the 2018 game is practically non-existent outside of the general story beats and major events. I'm basically basing my entire assessment on the blog itself, so if I get something wrong, please forgive me XD.

So I've read the blog. It's very well-made, and I think it's done a pretty good job with illustrating how magic can be used to amplify weapons by channeling magical/godly energy into them, which then also empowers the user physically in many instances.
I've also seen instances in the blog where these magical energies seem to be treated, in-verse, as a sort of life-force, which if drained greatly weakens the user. This alone is already a pretty good indicator of a universal energy system.

To draw parallels to Naruto and Dragon Ball (two of the verses with universal energy systems that I'm more knowledgeable on), these two verses operate on Chakra/Ki. Simply put, they are part spiritual and part physical energies that exist in all characters in those verses. Characters with more Chakra/Ki reserves are generally stronger, faster, and more durable so long as they are able to consciously control and channel their energy (or even with no control whatsoever in Dragon Ball, for cases like Broly). They're also able to channel them into weapons, and "special techniques" that have more versatile or haxxy applications.
Obviously I'm oversimplifying to a great degree, but what I'm trying to say is that I see a lot of parallels with other more obvious universal energy systems.

So assuming all the examples in the blog are legit, which seems to be the case since they haven't been disputed from what I can tell, I'm heavily leaning towards saying this is a universal energy system. At the very least, I think it's pretty much impossible to deny that magic can be used to enhance physical capabilities and empower individuals.
That's my opinion based on my limited knowledge, so take it as you will.
 
From what I saw, some of Bambu's points do make sense

I agree that you can use magic to stat amp. Nothing more.
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One of the core elements of a energy system is the energy being the same, if you have multiple users of "energy", without specifying what type, what name, or its origin, scaling one to other is almost arbitrary, and it will take individual feats. I guess some characters like Kratos can scale Magic and Body, while others, such as the Furies for example (Their feat is a dimension creation, so I guess they are relevant), apparently don't have what it takes to scale them aswell, I'm not well versed in GOW, so they might have proof and I'm just missing

Some characters like the Gods, Titans and Kratos seem okay to go
 
Lightning_XXI said:
From what I saw, some of Bambu's points do make sense



One of the core elements of a energy system is the energy being the same, if you have multiple users of "energy", without specifying what type, what name, or its origin, scaling one to other is almost arbitrary, and it will take individual feats. I guess some characters like Kratos can scale Magic and Body, while others, such as the Furies for example (Their feat is a dimension creation, so I guess they are relevant), apparently don't have what it takes to scale them aswell, I'm not well versed in GOW, so they might have proof and I'm just missing

Some characters like the Gods, Titans and Kratos seem okay to go
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Hmmm, that's a good point tbh. If there's no official, well-established, energy system, and we're simply using feats to come to a logical conclusion, then it's probably safer to apply it solely for the characters with the feats to show for it. In this case, it seems that Kratos, some of the Gods, and the Titans have the most showings for magical enhancements.
But again, I'm also not the most knowledgeable on GoW, so take what I'm saying with a pinch of salt.
 
Lightning_XXI said:
From what I saw, some of Bambu's points do make sense



One of the core elements of a energy system is the energy being the same, if you have multiple users of "energy", without specifying what type, what name, or its origin, scaling one to other is almost arbitrary, and it will take individual feats. I guess some characters like Kratos can scale Magic and Body, while others, such as the Furies for example (Their feat is a dimension creation, so I guess they are relevant), apparently don't have what it takes to scale them aswell, I'm not well versed in GOW, so they might have proof and I'm just missing

Some characters like the Gods, Titans and Kratos seem okay to go
Click to expand...
The Eyes of Truth section handles that. The device dispells magic, more specifically Fury magic.
While the Fury herself is also physically comparable to Kratos and so are her energy constructs, sentient or otherwise.

There's also this Glass posted.

Theglassman12 said:
as for the furies you have an in game description of one of the furies weapons being dripped with their magic. Add that with all the explanation of how magic works in god of war and they’d scale in physical strength
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I used the Furies as a example because of their importance to the scaling, but it could be literally "someone's who uses magic that has no feats of energy system like the others"
 
Lightning_XXI said:
I used the Furies as a example because of their importance to the scaling, but it could be literally "someone's who uses magic that has no feats of energy system like the others"
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Well if someone like that exists, it needs to be proven since as of now the blog covers everyone who uses magic in verse, which is described to be energy based on multiple occasions along with feats to show for it.
 
Seems decent, I have my issues and qualms (some are outright disagreements, others are just edits on making the blog more concise) but I'll post those this weekend since I'm working a lot more nowadays; done 6 days this week, overtime on every one lol.

I do want to say one thing though; our current standards for universal energy systems are ridiculously and offensively lax; I had to scrounge for qualifiers when I believe ProtoAngelo brought it up and even then the only one seems to be "needs to amp with powers" and that's pretty damn vague all things considered. I've been workshopping a page alongside some Injustice downgrades for the last month or so here and there. I bring this up not to stonewall but to check if it's cool for me to make a thread for the proposed page now or should I wait for this to go through before we have a second thread for how GOW stands for the updated guidelines?
 
I still don't agree with the suggestions of this thread, but outside of reestablishing that I suppose I have little to contribute. It's been eons since I played God of War.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Why would it be impossible, pray tell? I don't necessarily agree with the God of War ratings as they are, but I'd like you to elaborate on that point quite a lot, if you don't mind. It should be clear that I read the entire blog fairly carefully, and this hardly seems like a significant debunk with that in mind.
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What are you talking about here, the blog or the actual profiles/tiering?
 
@Hellbeast by making a page you’re talking about making a universal energy system page right? If you want to make a page so we can have a guideline on how certain stuff in verse can scale to physical strength then I’m all for it. Having some guideline to understand would save us a lot of headaches.
 
It doesn't seem like we have enough staff consensus here for this revision to pass.
 
Aetheric Pariah said:
What are you talking about here, the blog or the actual profiles/tiering?
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I suppose both, given the blog intends to affect tiers. The basis of the thread is what I don't agree with.
 
So should we close this thread then?
 
Well, it doesn't seem like this will be accepted.
 
Why? Bambu is the only person saying he doesn’t agree and he only mentions the weapons, not magic in general. And again you didn’t let Elizhaa or Planck comment here.
 
Okay. I will ask them again, but if they are uninterested, there isn't much more that I can do.

@Elizhaa @Planck69

Would you be willing to help out here please? Preferably read Bambu's posts as well.
 
Again Bambu didn’t give any comment on the entire magic system, only the weapons. Which isn’t the main focus of the blog: that magic in general can scale to physical strength in the series.
 
Okay.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Hellbeast by making a page you’re talking about making a universal energy system page right? If you want to make a page so we can have a guideline on how certain stuff in verse can scale to physical strength then I’m all for it. Having some guideline to understand would save us a lot of headaches.
Click to expand...
This and yeah that’s my thought
I’ll post that thread tomorrown
 
Fine by me, you also said you wanted to comment here on the energy stuff right?
 
I agree with this too.

Regarding weapons, the Blade of Olympus, the strongest weapon in the God of War series with no exception, fully scales from the user.
A big plot point in the series (Zeus ending the titan war) was done by him creating it, and then using the blade of olympus as a conduit for his magic to one shot the entire titan race.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Fine by me, you also said you wanted to comment here on the energy stuff right?
Click to expand...
Yeah I’m going to comment a bit later today if ok?

Basically I do agree magic amps physicals but I take issue to some of the evidence we use to come to that conclusion

One bit’s just super weird too
 
Theglassman12 said:
Why? Bambu is the only person saying he doesn’t agree and he only mentions the weapons, not magic in general. And again you didn’t let Elizhaa or Planck comment here.
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My issues apply to everything. The weapons were merely an example.
 
Can you debunk the magic scaling to physical strength in the verse? Because your comments I’ve seen only tackle the weapons. On top of the fact you said you agreed with magic amping their strength which is the main core of the argument here.
 
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Mr._Bambu said:
My issues apply to everything. The weapons were merely an example.
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Just sharing something. Since your original comment where we talked "symbiotic", I have thought about it a lot, but I haven't found a better alternative to replace it.
Obviously I need to reword somethings around it. But I think I'll stick to what I originally said in blog.
 
Right so right off the bat

Why are summons and explictly hax stuff like the Oathstone or Eyes of Truth being brought up as evidence here? Like it doesn't disprove anything but I doesn't prove anything either and just feels like padding to an already decently sized blog post about a universal system of magic existing or not ala Naruto or Dragon Ball. I'd recommend excising it and just focusing on your other points since there is much more to work with there and those specific examples are clearly much more hax based then AP.

The best argument is the Oathstone's duplicates seem comparable to Kratos in statistics but that's really it and if that is your intent I'd make that much more apparent here.

World Weapons I can concede with mostly; I would note them being able to harm inhumanely strong characters might not be great though. We see even fodder mortals like the Spartans and Icarus are just blatantly superhuman as proven by calculations and from reading we typically take weapon feats as either being the user's raw strength or just the weapon being stronger. Kratos hurting superhumans with fodder weapons would surely just be a feat for him right? That's how we tend to treat most melee weapon users on the wiki and I'm not sure why this verse is operating under separate logic to say it's a magical property of Kratos and the Warriors just passively amping them significantly.

It doesn't help these things have no anti feats so we're arguing they're being massively amped beyond their normal levels without any showings being used to depict their typical levels. The other stuff for them is fine but that melee weapons part just bothers me a bit. There are outright much better showings of the Warrior outright amping their attacks and abilities with magical artefacts and tablets in the Multiplayer so I have no idea why that specifically isn't being used (I have a collection, pls let me know if you want them)

I'm also not a fan of the Gauntlet of Zeus comment; the Gauntlet amps physical power, there's no refutation of that but my issue is still with the speed comment. Outside of this instance there's not really any reason to claim the Gauntlet similarly empowers speed beyond what Kratos himself is capable of and after a look through some cutscenes I can't find anything saying this is just acquired by passively having the Gauntlet in your possession/in the vague Hammerspace where Kratos weapons go when he isn't using them. You can say the Atlas thing is proof enough but it really reeks of sheer outlierdom more then anything more concrete.

Is that a cop out? Maybe, but I'd certainly ask you to collect more stuff on the Gauntlet if OK.

I'm also a bit confused on one thing; you mention the magic and item bars being separate is gameplay mechanics but then use gameplay showings of hurting Persephone with the BOC in her boss fight, the fact GOWIII uses the Blade of Olympus as a super mode and a magic attack and the mana bar existing in gameplay as evidence of your point. While I'd hate to get in to a great big war over gameplay mechanics (this is not the time) this feels oddly pick and choosy; especially when you already have definitive proof of a magical reserve being afforded to Kratos via his own admission in the novels (which you mention here I believe). Again there is much stronger evidence you could be using here and the blog could be streamlined by omitting that stuff.

The Arms of Sparta is a good example but Deimos is weird. You provide a link mentioning his empowerment of "death vine shackles" but I'm not seeing any statement or confirmation. Could you help me out here? Arms of Sparta is decent evidence but you could argue those were already empowered by Kratos' usage of the weapons; we see that Godly empowered weapons (See any multiplayer weapon) maintains it's powers and capabilities when being used by a mere mortal so why exactly is Deimos using them like Kratos paramount proof of him doing the same thing?

Siren is kinda strange but I need to reread that section of the novel before I comment more.

I'd also disagree with your point that magic = power for all beings. We see Cyclopes are physically strong enough to be juggernauts and built the foundations of Olympus but there's never any association between them and magical energy I can recall being mentioned. Same kinda applies to the Elephantaur's or the Manticore.

All that said the idea magic is universally applicable does work for the Gods, Demigods and Champions (under our current rules) and I can see it maybe fitting through fairly well under my proposed new guidelines that I'll probs post tomorrow. I'm still not huge on the Furies though but I'll make them a separate post since that's a topic and a half. I've definitely got.... opinions I need to formulate
 
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