God of War: Descension

[BEASTHEART8800]

This is interesting because each guy does something better than the other. The menu States that and I believe the gameplay shows that.

Ares warriors have the best raw power.

Hades warriors have the best stealth capabilities and Hax.

Poseidon warriors have the best defense.

And Zeus warriors have the best Magic.

Kratos has All elements, and is already a lot stronger than the warriors, so all of that should apply to him as well

 

[Hellbeast]

I'll address this.
This response is not just for Hellbeast but to everyone on thread.
______________________________________________
@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Antvasima

Persephone Shenanigans.

Spoiler: .

First and foremost lets do away with inaccurate description of phenomenon. Its absolutely not a "Self-Destruction", neither is it prep-time based with accumulated power. As an analogy DBZ Vegeta who actually has self destruction doesn't scale it above separate and above his own physicals.
First and foremost its a death effect only, two I don't understand this logic of separating the AP of such a phenomenon from normal physicals, especially with how universal energy systems work. Many 2C gods go through it with varying effect, and with this twisted "muh not physical" logic most of those guys will lose ratings. Lets look at these guys:-
1)Hades:-This guy, one of the strongest guys among Gods doesn't even have a "explosion" to begin with, he just releases his dominion over all souls in Hades and Mortal World. If we apply this "super duper uber strong destruction compared to normal" logic.....where would we end up?
2)Zeus:-Look at this just some neighborhood lvl weather.
3)Hermes:- A Plague.
4)Hera:- Plants die.
5)Poseidon:-This is most interesting one, a tsunami over entire world wiping all mortals death. Can we really say this is strongest ""attack"" Posiedon can do?
6)Helios:- This also exists.
While the deaths are varied over each gods, they don't display full power, its just literal collateral damage of gods power releasing control over their respective domains of reality. Sometimes its hax, sometimes its explosion. Either way Its not limiting to characters power.
______
Lets go over another aspect of physical scaling. Can Persephone and characters similar to her in death explosion actually scale regular attacks in same range.
Lets see what type of fighter Persephone is.....

As you can clearly see, Persephone is literally a brawler type character, quite literally a DragonBall Character. Ki enhanced punches, kicks, tackles, dashes, grapples, Ki beams, explosions, projectiles, geysers, etc. The fact that Persephone can damage Kratos normally, when death explosions doesn't kill him, says volumes about them scaling similarly.
Its kinda disingenuous to say the death blast is something alien compared normal attacks, And this applies to every god who uses their own brand of magic for fighting. To call this environmental destruction is dishonest.

lets look at directly comparable Gods who use similar fighting styles to Persephone, and have absolutely similar death explosions.

7)Ares:- Ares main element is magic which he uses for same types of attack as Persephone. These attacks can damage Kratos, but if death explosions are supposed to massively above physicals why doesn't it kill Kratos who's standing at epicentre? Why is Ares' body still intact?
Simple really, while such cataclysms have great adverse effects on reality, They don't go above said god's power lvl at all.
8)Thanatos:- Same situation as above, Only in this case we have Death Energy/Aura . While Pissed Kratos is clearly very stronger than Thanatos, he is still comparable scale, and yet Kratos is unaffected by explosion in anyway. Thanatos explodes in whole body though, but that's Thera's bane explosion manipulation.
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tldr;
All in all, universal magic system, death explosions scaling below physicals or at least comparable in power or worst case a cut above physicals, but not preposterously above physicals, and definitely not Environmental Destruction.
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World Pillar Shenanigans.

Spoiler: .

While the Pillar is weakened, its durability is not unquantified. As long as it can hold up the world it is clearly 2C. Persephone destroyed a significant portion of the pillar. So her feat is not unquantifiable either. Also Pillar as an object is supposed to be strong material durability wise, so destroying such material also scales.
Also lets not forget we are talking about 2C(uncountable infinite) shenanigans, lets not pretend characters in fiction don't legitimately scale by just beating up weakened characters either.

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tldr;
Weakened Pillar and Persephone are both legitimately 2C.
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Persephone is a bombshell!!!

Spoiler: .

Lets not pretend Chains of Olympus is the most impressive title in series for amount of feats it has for Greek Scaling. (Also best feels in story)
1) 2C feat by Morpheus, 2) 2C feat by Atlas/Pillar, 3) Casual High3A for Lighting up Underworld.
And Persephone is in thick of all this, perpetrator to all events and actually a fighter in the end, actually performing a feat of destroying the Pillar.

Sure you can call her minor, but using that as an excuse to downplay her to 9A is just dishonest, disingenuous. Her role is limited to Chains game, and while her scaling is a bit wonky in the game, its not an excuse to wash your hands off of her by downplaying her. Its a unfair disservice to the Character. Any scaling ""faults""(if they even exist in the first place) can be reconciled later. Most important is feats needs to be acknowledged.

Also "muh why didn't Persephone didn't do harakiri and end her life at Pillar and destroy it with her death" or "why didn't she bring it down herself" is the most dumbest argument.
lets not forget context of the story.
Persephone needed the world destroyed without interference.
thats why she employed Atlas to pull down Helios from sky, now Morpheus can safely merge with mortal world without Helios to drive him back.
So that they could convince Morpheus to consume the world, disabling all gods.
Atlas needed primordial fire to begin damaging world pillar.
Persephone is an arrogant and prideful Goddess but a doer and fighter regardless. Suicide doesn't suit her character.
She faught valiantly trying to go down as warrior, she dies and destroys the Weakened World Pillar anyways.

Stop my disrespecting my gurl.

_______
tldr;
Persephone maybe minor god, but her importance and feats are impressive.
___________


She performs exactly as we rate her. Its clear as sunrise.

No it doesn't, this a worthless excuse.

1st its not self-destruction. 2nd As I already explained, It scales to physicals, any other attempt at "ED,Unquantifiable, et cetra" is going against standards.

Fake Consistency means jackshit against context, solid feats and scaling.

i'll get into this shortly.
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Gauntlets Are OP


Lets talk about speed and LS first.
This is Kratos reacting and Grabbing onto Persephone mid flight. Done with Blades, while Gauntlets are in dimensional Storage.
This a offgaurd mind haxxed Kratos reacting to infinite speed Atlas trying to grab him/ crush him/smash him. Also done with Blades as well as gauntlets.
Kratos also checks out on restraining Atlas. So Infinite/Immeasurable LS as well.

Infinite Speed base Kratos is absolutely whack scaling and I'm fairly certain that's obvious

This is Kratos in a pushing beam struggle with Persephone, again showing LS and AP.

It's not LS tho; she's blocking the strike to shield herself in order to make it easier to push forward (before she gets sent back)
Also I'd note that Persephone has no LS feats outside of what we see in this fight so this isn't evidence for Infinite/Immeasurable base Kratos

Titans are not featless, from cosmic fights against Primordials to titanic frontline battles against Gods

Cosmic fights against one confirmed Primordial (potentially more) without any real context provided.
We have no idea what the Titans (aside from Cronos) participated to the war effort at all

. Both which last many hundreds to thousands of years.
you don't stalemate 2C beings for hundreds of years without being comparable yourself. The fact that gauntlets chained titans checks out on atleast LS and Speed.

This would mean Kratos has Infinite Speed which makes no sense

gauntlets just being in storage on Kratos allows him to damage Persephone who is 2C herself.

No; we've already discussed this but there's no reason to assume him having the Gauntlet in some hammerspace is remotely evidence for Kratos being amped by it at all times. We never see the other weapons like the Blade of Artemis, Barbarian Hammer, Spear of Desntiny etc, being used to amplify Kratos without him directly pulling them out for traditional use.

Persephone is also 2-C via self destruct which I'll get into rn

Tldr,
I propose both Persephone and Gauntlets become full 2C, Infinite Speed and LS.

Absolutely whack
This implies that a minor, absolutely irrelevant deity like Persephone scales to the same 2-C feat which Atlas (physically strongest of all Titans) does. Not just that but it breaks the narrative of Chains of Olympus, why does Persephone need to go through the effort of freeing Atlas, letting Morpheus incapacitate the Gods, sending the Titan to seize Helios' sun power, sending Atlas to destroy the pillar, wear down Kratos and then fight him, if she could just go "lmao no" and destroy the World Pillar with her Attack Potency outright?

Saying she needed the Gods distracted is all well and good, the problem is she kinda has every opportunity to get access to the Pillar (as her role as Queen of the Dead lets her get access to Elysium) and that's still not accounting for why she needed Atlas to shatter the Pillar with Helios. Surely killing him would work perfectly fine, clouding the world in shadows, allowing Morpheus to come in and shroud the Gods in sleep and then she can just one shot the Pillar with her Dragon Ball Z attacks

It makes no sense at all, you have to make so many explanations and leaps in logic to justify her contriving this whole plan and still being Multiversal. If anything, the simplest takeaway is she isn't able to destroy the Pillar by herself.

The insides have a lot of inner structure inside of it. You have numerous times in that area where you walk inside of the snake structures and there’s floors and different elevations and other materials inside of it, so it’s not exactly hollow

I'd note there's a lot of wood as well in there and huge amounts of space for a 7:6 Spartan to walk around.

Ares warriors have the best raw power.

True

Hades warriors have the best stealth capabilities and Hax.

True

Poseidon warriors have the best defense.

Via Healing (which Kratos doesn't use) and ice powers to control their environment

And Zeus warriors have the best Magic.

By having the most reliable magic attacks, the ability to stun foes, and the ability to depower enemies temporarily.

Kratos has All elements, and is already a lot stronger than the warriors, so all of that should apply to him as well

Thing is, as discussed in the OP, each of the Warriors have certain power via optional equipment, weapons, armour, relics etc
Kratos does draw on similar elemental magicks but he isn't using the same equipment or weapons as them so we shouldn't be applying all of that directly to Kratos.

Gods in GoW affect the world with their mere raw power. Whether its Posiedon as a god of oceans and earth causing earthquakes and tsunamis, or Zeus causing worldwide storms, or Gaia shifting continental tectonic plates. All this is casual enough by just breathing hard, yes by just breathing. All of this scale cuz Universal System of Magic which they use to empower themselves. It absolutely scales to their physicals.
Such is the case with Furies too.

I'm sorry why are we discussing Gods again? This whole thread is for characters from the Demigod stuff, we've been through this
Don't use ******* Poseidon to justify why his Champions drawing on a fraction of his strength work the same way.

You want to argue the Furies' and Demigods work that way? Cool, then use instances from them

I think @BEASTHEART880 refering to these?

My problem with these is the fact that, while impressive, we have no time frame or method for how Olympus was constructed by the Cyclopes, like their best feats are Tier 9 and this is them building a potentially multi kilometer mountain (no idea where we stand on that now) over time (as implied by Zeus claiming the mountain grew overtime). For all we know they made up a purely laborer role to the Olympians, moving raw materials into place so others could fix them (Hephesteaus certainly fits this bill) and we never actually see the Cyclopes show any actual intelligence beyond beastly and primitive throughout the series

It certainly puts them a level above the Satyrs and other monsters but it's solely upscaling from them because building overtime is not a solid reason for tiering.

the point I'm making her is she uses her illusions to attack these foes, and she withstood blows from these characters numerous times.

Tisiphone is fairly clearly the weakest Fury physically tho, she mostly uses her Illusions to control her environment, her Daimon to get in the fight for her and, typically, is going to be fighting alongside one or more of her sisters.

Pretty much every occasion she directly confronts Kratos has her either retreating or using a number's advantage and we see Kratos pretty easily crushes her neck (note how she uses different forms to rattle him)

That's my argument. As for the creating a weapon example, God of War has examples of characters amping weapons with their strength. Kratos gets random weapons in ascension to use and he can channel his power into these weapons to make them stronger.

No he doesn't, get a scan for the World Weapons being amped and we'll be good

There is technically a cyclops tier the OP is arguing but the cyclops is a fodder enemy that kratos kills by the dozens in practically every game. Most if not all of these feats that they're proposing for kratos is done casually or done as a side effect of the fight.

Are you aware of upscaling? The Cyclops feat is there to show what Kratos is above; thus adding credence to the other stuff. If Kratos has 9-A to 8-C and he's upscaling from 9-A fodder then that's consistency

It proves he's in a higher version of that tier then then, not necessarily several orders of magnitude above that since that's a ridiculous assumption,but certainly above them.

The character who made the storm has numerous showings of creating things through her illusions, like entire structures that Kratos in cutscene makes physical contact with, going off of the creation feats requirement, we need proof that the thing that was made is physically there and not fake, I brought up it being physically there and the other to prove that she does create these things and its consistent. If you want any clips of these, here they are.

Storms being real isn't an argument against Environmental Destruction tho dude, we've regularly treated storm creation as separate for a while, using this reasoning we'd get 5-C Kratos and co because Tisiphone recreates a moonlit Sparta at one point

And since it's Reality Warping it would probably be it's own statistics key (going by cases such as the Icon of Sin)

the character also has an illusion based bird that she uses in combat to physically harm her foes, and she can withstand blows from the people she's fought, meaning she can scale to her illusions especially since God of War has numerous showings of a Universal energy system when most of the character's strengths are utilizing magic, like some of the titans who's raw strength is done through magic.

Atlas' Quake channel magic through his limbs, which I think is what you're referencing.
Again tho that's using the magical potential of Gods and Titans to directly correlate to their Champions using immensely smaller portions of their powers and the Furies seem to have a whole separate thing going on with their magic.

As for the giant, I have no idea why we aren't using it as a baseline because they're using random 9-A clips that are done casually as an argument for the downgrade.

What giant? Hechatonchires? The one who scales to the top tiers of the series, thus implying everyone scales to the Olympians? This is stated twice by the developers and is implied by the act of the Olympians freeing him to aid them against the Titans in the Ascension opening. I have no idea why you're using him since, while Aegean has no profile, his statements are all accounted for on Zeus' page as power scaling.

It's an outlier to scale them to him so that's off the table and I'm not sure why we're discussing him at all rn. The most we do to him is injure his mutated hands, which have calculated feats in the 9-A range rather then do any severe damage to the being himself.

 

[Hellbeast]

Also about the Gauntlet
As mentioned above, both Charon and Persephone can survive blows from it with both of them being injured by Kratos' weapons that aren't the Gauntlet

• Kratos draws blood from Charon with his Blades
• Cuts through him with Charon's own scythe
• In a gameplay section you need to use the Sun Shield to reflect Charon's blasts back at him
• Persephone is staggered by the Sun Shield deflecting her own attacks
• Persephone screams in pain and is clearly struggling to move through the Light of Dawn (being sent back a few times with a pained scream before being sent to her knees)

Kratos even does fairly well against Charon up until he uses the scripted big wave attack so it's not like he doesn't scale at all to the Ferryman. You could certainly blame gameplay shenanigans on that but what you can't do is ignore that Charon has to resort to getting the high ground, charge himself up and then overwhelm Kratos with a powerful wave of his Wrath. If we assume the Gauntlet is just flat Low Multiversal then we also have to assume the Blades of Chaos, Sun Shield and Light of Dawn all allow Kratos to hit you with 2-C power, which then means anyone who fights Kratos with these (such as the Furies, Poullux and Castor, Perseus, Theseus etc) would have at least a small measure of reasoning that they could scale to 2-C as well. This is obviously a problem and the solutions are either

1. Do it for the Lols
2. Only scale Charon and Persephone to 2-C
3. Use the Titans stuff as a likely far higher reasoning

The third is by far the best option imo, the first one is either outright wank or putting in place things that could be used to argue for that, the second is ignoring that Kratos doesn't actually need the Gauntlet to harm them, he does damage without it and we can see he shouldn't be God Tier yet since a mere shockwave from Atlas using Helios' power makes him lose his grip on Persephone. There's also the whole issue of why a later, more experienced Kratos, would remotely need to travel to the Desert of Lost Souls, subvert the traps of Pathos Verdes III to acquire Pandora's Box in order to kill a God at all if he already scales.

Another issue is Atlas seemingly still had his chains in place which Kratos punches into place using the Gauntlet of Zeus so it's up in the air how much the Gauntlet or the Chains are even contributing to this. And we know said shackles were forged by the God of Warlike Slaughter, Ares, from the multiplayer lore description for the "War Hammer of Olympus" which chained Atlas to the Underworld and Pandora's Temple to the back of Cronos, implying these are no simple chains. These are constructs forged by top tier Olympians to imprison a top tier Titan in the Underworld for several thousand years without issue.

The Gauntlet being a "likely far higher" weapon works better since pretty much every instance it's used has some kind of caveat, be it that Kratos isn't overwhelmingly weaker then two people he uses it on or the fact it's being aided by chains forged by the Top Tiers of the verse on both occasions it's used to imprison a Titan (which is likely the case for the others since we see they're chained as well)

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Thing is, as discussed in the OP, each of the Warriors have certain power via optional equipment, weapons, armour, relics etc
Kratos does draw on similar elemental magicks but he isn't using the same equipment or weapons as them so we shouldn't be applying all of that directly to Kratos.

Good point.

 

[Hellbeast]

Good point.

Thank you
You could certainly assume they share certain hax (Both Kratos and Hades Warriors can summon the Hands of Death) but that would be application on a case by case basis. And plus that'd be subject for it's own thread rather then here

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

This is getting interesting

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Thank you
You could certainly assume they share certain hax (Both Kratos and Hades Warriors can summon the Hands of Death) but that would be application on a case by case basis. And plus that'd be subject for it's own thread rather then here

Yes, a topic of for another day. This is already going to be pretty long

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

What giant? Hechatonchires? The one who scales to the top tiers of the series, thus implying everyone scales to the Olympians? This is stated twice by the developers and is implied by the act of the Olympians freeing him to aid them against the Titans in the Ascension opening. I have no idea why you're using him since, while Aegean has no profile, his statements are all accounted for on Zeus' page as power scaling.

It's an outlier to scale them to him so that's off the table and I'm not sure why we're discussing him at all rn. The most we do to him is injure his mutated hands, which have calculated feats in the 9-A range rather then do any severe damage to the being himself.

I'm wondering about this as well. Naturally, it causes big problems. I mean, is everybody multiversal? But I could see why he brought it up, and I think it should be talked about here. While them harming Aegean would likely be an Outlier (unless they're negging durability) Maybe Zeus Took his powers away? No evidence or proof for this at all, but it's a logical explanation. Torturing him, considering he dwarfs mountains is a pretty good feat.

No; we've already discussed this but there's no reason to assume him having the Gauntlet in some hammerspace is remotely evidence for Kratos being amped by it at all times. We never see the other weapons like the Blade of Artemis, Barbarian Hammer, Spear of Desntiny etc, being used to amplify Kratos without him directly pulling them out for traditional use

Yes. While I don't fully buy into it, the gauntlet amping Kratos even just in Dimensional storage is somewhat logical, but there's no real evidence for it, and to be honest those aren't God tier weapons. Kratos needed the GOZ to kill Persephone.

At the time I'm typing this it's pushing 4am where I live, so GN, check back in the AM

 

[Hellbeast]

I'm wondering about this as well. Naturally, it causes big problems. I mean, is everybody multiversal? But I could see why he brought it up, and I think it should be talked about here. While them harming Aegean would likely be an Outlier (unless they're negging durability) Maybe Zeus Took his powers away? No evidence or proof for this at all, but it's a logical explanation. Torturing him, considering he dwarfs mountains is a pretty good feat.

It's possible since Zeus does take power away from other foes but it's never stated he does that to Aegean.
Torturing is good but I'd note there's issues with that.

The Furies are known for inflicting pain beyond the flesh, they can drive you mad, torture you with illusions, force horrific insects into you to twist and mutate your flesh and that's just going off what we see them do in the game (not even talking about how they built a prison inside him). They've got several means to induce suffering beyond just beating him up and they've got the time to be creative as possible.

Yes. While I don't fully buy into it, the gauntlet amping Kratos even just in Dimensional storage is somewhat logical, but there's no real evidence for it, and to be honest those aren't God tier weapons. Kratos needed the GOZ to kill Persephone.

Actually some have good statements
Artemis slew a nameless Titan with her blade and Zeus calls it one of the most powerful weapons in creation in the first games Novelization and the Spear of Destiny might just be the most underrated weapon in the canon.

It's regularly revered and dreaded by the Sisters of Fate throughout their subplot in II's novelization, considered one of their mightiest weapons and the Warrior of Destiny (dude on the black griffin) doesn't use it during his fight because he's terrified of it's potential, with the same novel describing him holding the weapon "gingerly".

And while we see the Gauntlet is what kills Persephone, we do see other weapons do considerable harm to her.

At the time I'm typing this it's pushing 4am where I live, so GN, check back in the AM

All G dude (sleep well)

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

should we call more staff here?

 

[Hellbeast]

I could see if I could notify Planck and Schnee to take a look at the new arguments
I know Bambu agrees with the OP tho and so do a few others

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I am editing my original comment by the way, due to mandela effect, I ignored writing down a few points. So I suggest you guys reread my comment after I inform you my editing is done.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah sure, let me know when you're done

 

[Planck69]

Wake up on my B day and I see this get to page 3....


Anyway, is there a summary for the new arguments?

 

[Hellbeast]

Wake up on my B day and I see this get to page 3....

Ooh Happy Birthday!

Anyway, is there a summary for the new arguments?

The new arguments from Glassman and co

• Kratos' feats are mostly casual
• Universal Energy Shenanigans
• Gameplay may be unreliable
• Persephone and the Gauntlet should be just 2-C

It's heavily simplified but that's the gist of it rn and relevant responses are throughout the thread

 

[Planck69]

Ooh Happy Birthday!

Thanks. The bleak world of adulthood awaits.

The new arguments from Glassman and co

• Kratos' feats are mostly casual
• Universal Energy Shenanigans
• Gameplay may be unreliable
• Persephone and the Gauntlet should be just 2-C

It's heavily simplified but that's the gist of it rn and relevant responses are throughout the thread

I do agree that gameplay feats are a significantly lower showing than how strong Kratos actually is and quite a few feats here are just by consequence of the fights. That said, the actual Tier 7 feats to use for scaling seem unreliable so we're forced to go with what we have. I can see an argument for the death of Alecto though.

Honestly, I wouldn't be too opposed to a plain Unknown for Persephone and just far higher for the Gauntlet buy I'll see what others think.

 

[Antvasima]

Happy birthday from me as well.

If we need more staff input here, is somebody willing to write necessary explanations of what they need to evaluate please?

 

[Hellbeast]

Thanks. The bleak world of adulthood awaits.

Woo bleak adulthood is fun!

I do agree that gameplay feats are a significantly lower showing than how strong Kratos actually is and quite a few feats here are just by consequence of the fights. That said, the actual Tier 7 feats to use for scaling seem unreliable so we're forced to go with what we have.

That's fair
I definitely would prefer Kratos be much higher into Tier 8 (and he could be idk) but I don't see the evidence as being compelling

I can see an argument for the death of Alecto though.

I'm personally fine with scaling Kratos to individual explosions but not the full 7-B feat tbh
It definitely strikes me as a chain reaction even if it's not just ED

Honestly, I wouldn't be too opposed to a plain Unknown for Persephone and just far higher for the Gauntlet buy I'll see what others think.

That's partly my argument, the Gauntlet and other stuff would comprise a "higher with weapons rating" but it wouldn't be High 3-A, Likely Low 2-C, possibly 2-C.

Persephone would ideally get a "higher via death" but I can just see it being a possibly far higher as a compromise

Perhaps we could phrase it as " X Tier (Could battle evenly with Kratos for an extended period of time), possibly far higher (her death shattered the World Pillar, albeit after Atlas damaged it)

If we need more staff input here, is somebody willing to write necessary explanations of what they need to evaluate please?

Basically the main points of contention are whether magic outright scales to physicals, whether Persephone and the Gauntlet scale to 2-C and whether or not we can use Aegean to scale the others (I think I've got a good debunk for this but It'd be cool to get more opinions)

 

[KieranH10]

Hapi budday Planck.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yeah sure, let me know when you're done

https://vsbattles.com/threads/god-of-war-descension.121702/post-4045666

Done, anyone else not read this then please read this. Especially of anyone is new to the thread pls read, since its first response in the entire thread to Chains Of Olympus in OP.

Wake up on my B day and I see this get to page 3....


Anyway, is there a summary for the new arguments?

My best wishes on your Birthday!!!

 

[Hellbeast]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/god-of-war-descension.121702/post-4045666

Done, anyone else not read this then please read this.

Sweet, I'll go through this a bit later If that's ok?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sure, no hurry. Meanwhile I'll get my responses to latest comments in ready.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

little thing, we got 2 more 9-A monsters... Just thought I'd point it out in case Tier 7 gets rejected

 

[Hellbeast]

1)Hades:-This guy, one of the strongest guys among Gods doesn't even have a "explosion" to begin with, he just releases his dominion over all souls in Hades and Mortal World. If we apply this "super duper uber strong destruction compared to normal" logic.....where would we end up?

This is a gross misinterpretation of what happens, because Hades no longer rules, he can't hold back the tides of the wailing dead from rising out of the Underworld. It's a direct application of his stewardship over the dead and role as the God of the Underworld. It's nothing at all like Persephone's feat, that was a destructive blast of energy, not her share of the world responding negatively to her demise.

Hell Hades technically isn't even dead, his soul was claimed by Kratos so that might be why he doesn't even have a death explosion or any environmental effects other then the souls running amok.

2)Zeus:-Look at this just some neighborhood lvl weather.

Zeus is officially the God of the Skies and Thunder, it's a representation of his domain acting up, not a death explosion

3)Hermes:- A Plague.

Plagues are hax and he spawns insects, meaning this would just be Disease Manipulation and Insect Manipulation
I don't get this one tho, Hermes isn't associated with plagues normally (Apollo and Asclepius kinda are because their domains are healing and medicine) so this is weird.

4)Hera:- Plants die.

This is a response to her salving influence being taken away by Kratos, before this she was doing "all she could" to preserve the flora of the Mediterranean (potentially implying Demeter's dead). Considering flora isn't normally an extension of Hera's dominions as a Godess and seems like something she is actively doing (to potentially great effort) it seems more likely her protecting the plants from the above ravages is what's happening here.

I'm uncomfortable using this as a feat of power either way, especially since it seemed to mostly be limited to Mount Olympus (since by God the Earth was flooding)

5)Poseidon:-This is most interesting one, a tsunami over entire world wiping all mortals death. Can we really say this is strongest ""attack"" Posiedon can do?

This is again Poseidon's death causing his domain, the Oceans, to negatively react, this isn't a big death explosion. I'd also note the seas seem to be moving over time since they haven't reached Olympia early on and then we can see them from the Summit of Olympos (rain from Helios' death could have done this)

6)Helios:- This also exists.

I'm trying to figure out if the clouds are him or Morpheus
I'm going to assume it's him tho and I know clouds scaling physically is a bit of a no no rn and it's kinda pointless to bring up since, like all Olympians, this isn't the main reason for his tiering.

While the deaths are varied over each gods, they don't display full power, its just literal collateral damage of gods power releasing control over their respective domains of reality.

Most of them are, exceptions do exist in Ares and Athena (potentially Gaia) but most of these are the world reacting to their deaths with one (Hermes) outright being unquantifiable plague hax

Sometimes its hax, sometimes its explosion. Either way Its not limiting to characters power.
______
Lets go over another aspect of physical scaling. Can Persephone and characters similar to her in death explosion actually scale regular attacks in same range.
Lets see what type of fighter Persephone is.....

As you can clearly see, Persephone is literally a brawler type character, quite literally a DragonBall Character. Ki enhanced punches, kicks, tackles, dashes, grapples, Ki beams, explosions, projectiles, geysers, etc.

I'd note she also uses TK seemingly

The fact that Persephone can damage Kratos normally, when death explosions doesn't kill him, says volumes about them scaling similarly.
Its kinda disingenuous to say the death blast is something alien compared normal attacks, And this applies to every god who uses their own brand of magic for fighting. To call this environmental destruction is dishonest.

Kratos wouldn't be tanking the full strength of her explosion because of Inverse Square Law and her energy blast is massively above any other feat she does.

lets look at directly comparable Gods who use similar fighting styles to Persephone, and have absolutely similar death explosions.

Scaling based on fighting style isn't remotely a good reason but ok

7)Ares:- Ares main element is magic which he uses for same types of attack as Persephone. These attacks can damage Kratos, but if death explosions are supposed to massively above physicals why doesn't it kill Kratos who's standing at epicentre?

Kratos would not be tanking the whole thing and distance would impact the amount taken via Inverse Square Law.
Again it's a minor 6-C feat for a Likely 2-C entity, it's not and has never been the solely defining feat he's had under his belt. Ares is also one of the four mightiest Gods on Olympus so I'm willing to bet he's a different case from Persephone

8)Thanatos:- Same situation as above, Only in this case we have Death Energy/Aura . While Pissed Kratos is clearly very stronger than Thanatos, he is still comparable scale, and yet Kratos is unaffected by explosion in anyway. Thanatos explodes in whole body though, but that's Thera's bane explosion manipulation

Its an incredibly minor explosion and we never see any wider environmental impacts from Thanatos' death from his respective dominion.

I'd also note he's a Primordial, not an Olympian or even a Titan so we could be looking at wholly different mechanics here

Lets not pretend Chains of Olympus is the most impressive title in series for amount of feats it has for Greek Scaling.

I mean it is, unless you mean "let's not pretend it isn't the most impressive title for feats"

Sure you can call her minor, but using that as an excuse to downplay her to 9A is just dishonest, disingenuous. Her role is limited to Chains game, and while her scaling is a bit wonky in the game, its not an excuse to wash your hands off of her by downplaying her. Its a unfair disservice to the Character. Any scaling ""faults""(if they even exist in the first place) can be reconciled later. Most important is feats needs to be acknowledged.

I'm not arguing she would have committed game end, I;m saying if she's such a doer and her death explosion scales to general Attack potency rather then some esoteric ability, why does she not simply destroy the Pillar herself? She already used Atlas to get Helios out the way and letting Morpheus consume the world in black fog, but then why use the Power when you scale above him?

Kill Helios and you've accomplished the same purpose of getting him out the way and if anything it'd be better because that way he can't just restore the sun if you fail. There is no reason for the 2-C Persephone to just use a power source (of someone who I'd note scaling implies would be weaker then her) if she can just do it herself. Have Atlas slay the Gods or Kratos or something and be done with it.

She faught valiantly trying to go down as warrior, she dies and destroys the Weakened World Pillar anyways.
5)Also with how Atlas needed to amp himself to even damage the Full Power gives ample evidence that Persephone would't have been able to damage it at all, not even with suicide.
6)Her feat is only of destroying the Weakened 2C Pillar, she is not scaling beyond that.

Also this "Minor Goddess" Excuse doesn't work in slightest, at this point we are subjectively applying meaning of made up titles,
Do you actually have proof A) Is she even called that in the first place?

She's never referenced outside of this game more then a few times (Hades mentions her in III and Athena references her omnicidal plot in the Novelization for GOWII.

She's clearly not a Godess who's particularly revered by the Greeks and her being so handed away to Hades (something she implies based on her lines about the Gods betraying her) implies she isn't held in high esteem by her kin either. Zeus would likely not have done anything of the sort with Athena and we see the only one who takes issue with this is her mother, the Goddess Demeter

B)Does being called minor gods actually have any dire consequences that they can just be downplayed like that? C) Does being called minor debunk feats?
I don't think any answer can satisfy this illogical stuff.
This "minor god" title doesn't work when we have couple of Demigods being 2C, "Minor Gods" like Magni and Modi are 2C and comparable to their Father Thor.
Also I can give another meaning to "Minor God":- Only Relatively Weaker to Elder Gods. Thats it.

Also scaling chain would be:-
Full World Pillar>>Amped Atlas>>Weak Atlas>>Kratos(GoZ)>=Persephone=Weak Pillar = 2C.
Lets not forget even Hyperion Spear on its own can sustain the cosmos weight, and Hyperion with Primordial Fire itself would be much powerful, Weak Atlas would powerful still, more with Primordial Fire amp, and his Prime Self would just be on another lvl entirely.

As you can see, Persephone still scales below even a weakened Atlas. But in same tier cuz feats.

Stop my disrespecting my gurl.

Your waifu is trash
[/SPOILER]

_______
tldr;
Persephone maybe minor god, but her importance and feats are impressive.
___________


She performs exactly as we rate her. Its clear as sunrise.

We rate her by a singular feat that completely disregards the wider narrative context and her place as an insignificant deity among the Greeks

No it doesn't, this a worthless excuse.

Really not but ok

1st its not self-destruction. 2nd As I already explained, It scales to physicals, any other attempt at "ED,Unquantifiable, et cetra" is going against standards.

It's not, if a character has a feat that's way above their other feats from a specific attack or attacks, then the policy is to treat that attack as being separate, this is why storms aren't taken as just being flat City Level AP anymore or why the Incredibles are getting downgraded and this is why environmental destruction is becoming such an enforced concept.

Fake Consistency means jackshit against context, solid feats and scaling.

What solid consistency and scaling? Persephone being above the entire Titanic race? With how we're scaling Hermes to her that means even he could have soloed the entire invasion force in GOWIII which is insane and that's nothing to say of the wider implication that holds. Everyone, including the Sisters of Fate, terrify Hermes and generally view him as absolutely insignificant so that means any notable Olympian would have soloed the entire Titan army in GOWIII. Which obviously isn't the case, we see Hades and Poseidon wreck house but then Perses just eats everything Helios puts out and grievously wounds him when he actually gets his hands on him.

I've also pointed out how Persephone is harmed by other weapons so that would not just be scaling for characters like Helios (whom the Light of Dawn is derived from) but also anyone who survives those attacks. This could potentially double the list of who has a claim to be 2-C which kind of makes an absolute mess of everything. So either we disregard those as outliers, assume the Gauntlet amps Kratos even when not being worn (which is a weird assumption) or that the Gauntlet shouldn't be outright Low Multiversal.

I'd also note something I just recalled. You know how Atlas is chained half way through the fight? He's chained to the Underworld's ceiling and is forced to support it. You can see him holding it throughout the fight and he's described as being consigned to that by Kratos. So it's Atlas holding the earth from halfway onwards, not necessarily the Pillar.

It's not a huge "gotcha" or a "hail Mary" but it's something I think we should be noting.

 

[Planck69]

I have to agree with Hellbeast on that. Scaling Persephone to the World Pillar would lead to some very wonky scaling and break the narrative entirely.

Poseidon could probably solo the Titans but someone weaker than Hermes definitely isn't.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Before I start posting my responses @Hellbeast can I know in concise concluded manner why you are refusing accept magic amping weapons and weapons being in storage is incapable of scaling??

 

[Hellbeast]

Before I start posting my responses @Hellbeast can I know in concise concluded manner why you are refusing accept magic amping weapons and weapons being in storage is incapable of scaling??

Because there’s no evidence of either, you’re using gameplay abilities to justify the former and the latter isn’t justified by anything at all

I’m not seeing any evidence for weapons being in Kratos’ Hammerspace to amplify him while in there

If you’ve got stuff that isn’t either of those two then we can talk

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Because there’s no evidence of either, you’re using gameplay abilities to justify the former and the latter isn’t justified by anything at all

I’m not seeing any evidence for weapons being in Kratos’ Hammerspace to amplify him while in there

We clearly see it happening on-screen, why must statements for such simple mechanics be needed to be spoon to fed us?
We don't disregard gameplay mechanics without contradictions?
Surely observation and simple interpretation of the phenomenon is more than enough.

 

[Hellbeast]

We clearly see it happening on-screen, why must statements for such simple mechanics be needed to be spoon to fed us?

Because it has massive, dramatic implications for the mechanics of the verse

Anything that useful needs to be considered carefully

We don't disregard gameplay mechanics without contradictions?

But we don’t use stuff wothout sufficient reasoning

Surely observation and simple interpretation of the phenomenon is more than enough.

As I mentioned; it isn’t, this is a much bigger case then just whether or not someone can do stuff

This is part of your reasoning we’ve got a universal energy system going on here, it’s a little more significant then you imply.

If you have evidence beyond this then please let me know and we can go somewhere (this applies to most of the reasoning against the proposed downgrades)

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

It's possible since Zeus does take power away from other foes but it's never stated he does that to Aegean.
Torturing is good but I'd note there's issues with that.

The Furies are known for inflicting pain beyond the flesh, they can drive you mad, torture you with illusions, force horrific insects into you to twist and mutate your flesh and that's just going off what we see them do in the game (not even talking about how they built a prison inside him). They've got several means to induce suffering beyond just beating him up and they've got the time to be creative as possible.

Yes. My thoughts as well.

Actually some have good statements
Artemis slew a nameless Titan with her blade and Zeus calls it one of the most powerful weapons in creation in the first games Novelization and the Spear of Destiny might just be the most underrated weapon in the canon.

It's regularly revered and dreaded by the Sisters of Fate throughout their subplot in II's novelization, considered one of their mightiest weapons and the Warrior of Destiny (dude on the black griffin) doesn't use it during his fight because he's terrified of it's potential, with the same novel describing him holding the weapon "gingerly".

And while we see the Gauntlet is what kills Persephone, we do see other weapons do considerable harm to her

Yes, those are extremely Powerful weapons, and great statements, but the Gauntlet of Zeus is perhaps a lot stronger than both. It was Forged by Hephaestus for Zeus himself to use.
Zeus in Ghost of Sparta uses them along side the blade of Olympus. Not saying its as powerful as the blade of Olympus, but it's extremely Powerful. Artemis did body a Titan with it, but Kratos didn't use it to full potential until his fight with Ares. Same goes with the Spear of Destiny until the sisters.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Wake up on my B day and I see this get to page 3....


Anyway, is there a summary for the new arguments?

Happy Birthday!

Thanks. The bleak world of adulthood awaits.

Yes it does. yes it does.

 

[Theglassman12]

And Kratos can still withstand blows from her illusions that she physically creates. She uses them to fight, why would that not scale to his physical at all?

literally every time he uses the worlds weapons he amps them. That’s as blatant as you can get. Just saying “oh it can lead to weird implications” without elaborating despite what we see for our very eyes does not help your case.

Yeah he’s above them, by having feats he scales from via the furies.

no it doesn’t, that’s like half of my argument, the other half is the universal energy system that’s stated numerous times in this thread and proven to be a thing. You have barely acknowledged any of the arguments we’ve made beyond cherry picking.

Where is the whole “separate thing” coming from? Like are you even trying to debunk my points here or are you just trying to make random what if statements?

Zeus’ statement literally says it’s a casual thing, and again, Titans are weaker than the olympians at this point, Kratos needing a power boost against Ares, an olympian wouldn’t break the scaling chain, in fact the god of war powers of getting stronger over time and the other gods gaining strength over time like Hades would make way more sense here.

also I’ve noticed you haven’t really responded to most of the arguments I’ve made, I assume that means you’ve conceded on my points?

@Planck69 happy birthday, also can I ask why the tier 7 feats via the storm feat and the spear of Poseidon feat are deemed unreliable when the storm feat checks off the creation feats requirements on top of the fact that the God of War series has a universal energy system with magic being used for strength? Because last time I checked having a universal energy system for a verse would allow creation feats to scale to physicals.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sorry for late reply. Been away from my laptop. So used the excuse for a break.

Because it has massive, dramatic implications for the mechanics of the verse

Anything that useful needs to be considered carefully

Sure, its big deal. But simplicity of it doesn't change. Complex and unclear stuff always require more context.
This here ain't it. We can clearly see what is happening, so extra context in unnecessary.
Also,
Lets not forget weapon amp as mechanics was introduced in 2013. In a game that is production wise latest in the Greek series yet chronologically the origin of Kratos.
Retroactive Retcon is a thing, not to mention later games beyond 1&2 don't even have novels to give more context.
We have to make do with what we see.
Is it really good that we so harshly and unfairly deny the existance of this simple mechanics in canon?

 

[Planck69]

@Planck69 happy birthday, also can I ask why the tier 7 feats via the storm feat and the spear of Poseidon feat are deemed unreliable when the storm feat checks off the creation feats requirements on top of the fact that the God of War series has a universal energy system with magic being used for strength? Because last time I checked having a universal energy system for a verse would allow creation feats to scale to physicals.

Thanks.

Spear of Poseidon makes no indication as to whether or not this power is carried in every attack as opposed to just being a power source for the weapon. A sword "carrying within it an exploding sun" doesn't mean it slashes with that full power. Of course if there's more elaboration then it's very welcome.

As for the former, I'm pretty sure the creation feats being referred to aren't condensing storms. And I don't think we do accept the universal energy system for God of War as of now, as far as I know. If we did then I'd be leaning more towards the feat being accepted.

 

[Theglassman12]

We have numerous showings of the universal energy system being a thing. The gods and Titans and most if not all the other weapons in the different games you gain through other characters utilizes magic, Cronos’ magic power granted to Kratos has made him stronger, Zeus’ gift stated to channel magic through one’s blood to make yourself stronger, even Atlas does the same thing, and his magic attack you do is literal raw strength.

On top of the fact that even in game and novels they acknowledge the magic being a thing, like with kratos’ blades of chaos where he kills/stabs Anyone with his blades and he absorbs their life and energy through the blades, Kratos’ power being granted to the statue in god of war 2 is his own magical power, Kratos when he tried to wield the blade of Olympus in 2 had to give all of his power into the blade, which included his magic, and when you’re inside the statue you stab the part that energizes him and you have a statement saying you drained the energy source from the statue. On top of the fact that during the Zeus fight inside Gaia he drains her heart to regain his strength, which is shown with the healing and magic orbs you absorb in game.

 

[Theglassman12]

As for the spear thing, characters can amp their weapons, there’s numerous descriptions on different multiplayer weapons in Ascension where you can channel your strength into the attack to deal extra damage, and the spear of Poseidon is no exception. Heck weapon amping is even a thing in Kratos’ campaign when he amps random weapons he collects by making them stronger than normal and do things otherwise impossible to do with normal hands.

 

[Hellbeast]

And Kratos can still withstand blows from her illusions that she physically creates. She uses them to fight, why would that not scale to his physical at all?

Because her physicals are blatantly trash, she’s completely crushed by Kratos physically and is rocked by hos physical strikes

Her using her illusions to control the environment are a clear showing of this

literally every time he uses the worlds weapons he amps them. That’s as blatant as you can get. Just saying “oh it can lead to weird implications” without elaborating despite what we see for our very eyes does not help your case.

My problem is we’re taking a gameplay element at face value as an example when you yourself have argued gameplay ain’t a great showing of actual feats

This isn’t like the orbs where it’s outright canonised as a thing

Yeah he’s above them, by having feats he scales from via the furies.

Which are From two of them, one is clearly a chain reaction and the other is clearly using Reality Warping

Make a need argument please, we’re going in circles over “it’s ED” and “it’s no time tho”.

no it doesn’t, that’s like half of my argument, the other half is the universal energy system that’s stated numerous times in this thread and proven to be a thing.

Half of your evidence is using gameplay and the other half is using actual Gods to justify every usage of magic in the series’s as universally applicable dude, the other half is stuff that’s is pretty cleanly accepted as not being universally applicable and the other is using a weapon being empowered by a storm which we’ve long agreed shouldn’t mean it’s hitting you with 7-B Force with every single attack.

You could use Poseidon’s Rage but that’s unfortunately just Deconstruction now

I’d also note the proof surely isn’t great because no one has accepted it and several staff have looked at this thread

You have barely acknowledged any of the arguments we’ve made beyond cherry picking.

I have actually, Ive gone frame by frame over the fights to point out stuff not making sense and have considered our guidelines on Envrionmental destruction, chain reactions, our treatment of Reality Warping and haven activel given you and Gilver the floor to change my mind

We’ve discussed your core reasoning all thread and the consesnsus is what’s it was in the OP, that it has too many major gaps to be solidly used

Where is the whole “separate thing” coming from? Like are you even trying to debunk my points here or are you just trying to make random what if statements?

I could do with a quotation of what you’re referring, seriously that’d be helpful

Zeus’ statement literally says it’s a casual thing, and again, Titans are weaker than the olympians at this point, Kratos needing a power boost against Ares, an olympian wouldn’t break the scaling chain

It would because said Olympian is inferior to Helios’ meaning that even the weakest Olympians god, a complete joke in terns of sheer power would be able to solo the entire Titan race

And this makes no sense because we see Helios, a much stronger dirty, get crippled by Perses, who tanks several hits from the sun God on Olympus and in the outskirts of Olympia

Are the Titans weaker then the Olympians? Sure? Is even their strongest member significantly weaker then their weakest by a significant amount, to the point anyone would question any confrontation not immediately ending in a brutal genocide? No, I Don’t think any of the evidence is leaning to that

also I’ve noticed you haven’t really responded to most of the arguments I’ve made, I assume that means you’ve conceded on my points?

No I did respond to your points, wym?

Sorry for late reply. Been away from my laptop. So used the excuse for a break.


Sure, its big deal. But simplicity of it doesn't change. Complex and unclear stuff always require more context.
This here ain't it. We can clearly see what is happening, so extra context in unnecessary.
Also,
Lets not forget weapon amp as mechanics was introduced in 2013. In a game that is production wise latest in the Greek series yet chronologically the origin of Kratos

This means it’s fine to Use the world Weapons how?

Retroactive Retcon is a thing

It’s just retcon (the first half means retroactive)

We have to make do with what we see.
Is it really good that we so harshly and unfairly deny the existance of this simple mechanics in canon?

Kinda yeah, if you’re whole reasoning is “he doesn’t this in gameplay” it’s not protcularly good, gameplay is fun in every but it should be back backed up other stuff, which it isnt’

Don’t use Kratos having a weird multi spear summoning combo to justify everyone in the verse amplifying all their attacks with magic

We have numerous showings of the universal energy system being a thing. The gods and Titans and most if not all the other weapons in the different games you gain through other characters utilizes magic, Cronos’ magic power granted to Kratos has made him stronger

This is cronos bestowing Kratos with the last of his magic and is likely not An average case

, Zeus’ gift stated to channel magic through one’s blood to make yourself stronger

This is Atlas’ account of zeus forging the blade of Olympus and is fairly clearly a representation of the Gods drawing blood from himself with his thunder bolts

We see this in the cutscene as blood trickling from the hand actively casting the lightning and the phrasing of “exploding with a reddish hue” seems pretty clearly indicative of Zeus cutting through his flesh with this

It’s not channeling magic through his blood and I don’t know where you got this for from and we certainly never see any reference implying that’s how it works anywhere else

even Atlas does the same thing, and his magic powers attack you do is literal raw strength.

Atlas is very clearly treated as a Earth and Vibration Manipulation, it channels magic to through his limbs but it’s not just AP.

It’s not just a general physical amp allowing him to hit harder, it’s allowing him channel vibrations though his limbs to make earthquakes

On top of the fact that even in game and novels they acknowledge the magic being a thing, like with kratos’ blades of chaos where he kills/stabs Anyone with his blades and he absorbs their life and energy through the blades

That’s a specific hax applicable to the blades of Chaos, specifically that they’re able to drain the life from their victims to heal kratos

Why are you using that as a universal energy system when it’s just hax?

Kratos’ power being granted to the statue in god of war 2 is his own magical power

Zeus has the power to take and redistribute magical power, it’s hax applicable to him and not evidence of universal systems

, Kratos when he tried to wield the blade of Olympus in 2 had to give all of his power into the blade, which included his magic, and when you’re inside the statue you stab the part that energizes him and you have a statement saying you drained the energy source from the statue.

That is hax specific to the Blade of olympus, why are we using that to justify universal systems here? We’ve been over this

On top of the fact that during the Zeus fight inside Gaia he drains her heart to regain his strength, which is shown with the healing and magic orbs you absorb in game.

That Absorption hax, specifically listed as power Absorption on the profile I believe

The mp lore could Be neat tho, I’m happy to take a look at that

 

[Antvasima]

Hellbeast and Planck69:

Have you reached any conclusions here?

 

[Hellbeast]

OP is mostly good, it’s seemingly just Glassman and Gilver who disagree

I’ll see if I can get some staff like Banbu and Kieran to take another look

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This means it’s fine to Use the world Weapons how?

Its sufficient under the situation is my point.

Kinda yeah, if you’re whole reasoning is “he doesn’t this in gameplay” it’s not protcularly good, gameplay is fun in every but it should be back backed up other stuff, which it isnt’

Don’t use Kratos having a weird multi spear summoning combo to justify everyone in the verse amplifying all their attacks with magic

Uhhh....Even redeemed warriors can use world weapons and amp them.
the only reason you would disregard gameplay is A)Unrealistic in context or B) Contradiction
Which is not the case with Weapon Amps. If there is no negative then why disregard them?


ngl all you seem to be doing is just stone walling on this amp topic, just handwaving the present evidence in hopes of getting by.