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God-mountain downgrade

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Apex_Predator_GX

Apex_Predator_GX

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I've created this IDW's Godzilla in Hell profile yesterday

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God-mountain

God-mountain is a multi-eyed divine mountain that appears in issue #3 of the comic book miniseries Godzilla in Hell. In Issue #3 Godzilla was send to Purgatory, a sacred place where he sees angels with Mothra's wings, along with God-mountain, who takes the form of a multi-eyed mountain with the...
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I thought as we have God-demon already we should have his good counterpart.

Personally, I think it's fine the profile to stay, as long as the rating is directly scaled of Godzilla.

The plan is to downgrade it to tier 5-A scaling from Godzilla and adding a "LIKELY FAR HIGHER"

The new rating will be:

At least Large Planet level (God-mountain effortlessly pushed back Godzilla with his Rainbow beam while holding back significantly, something that even SpaceGodzilla couldn't do with his Corona beam at maximum power.)

I can clearly see the wake of motion from where Godzilla was before got pushed by God-M's beam the line is horizontal

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The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.
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Thoughts?
 
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It seems a bit strange for this to be considered AP and not just "creates a portal under Godzilla that Godzilla falls into" or even "Telekinesis" (LS not AP).

That WoG should not be included even as a "possibly far higher". I'm not on some mindless "NO WOG EVER" crusade, but we need to be careful about this sort of stuff, and the example here is terrible. The only WoG you linked for God-Mountain's rating is so cropped we can't even tell that it applies to God-Mountain, it just says "god is the creator of our universe", as far as I know this could just be a religious person talking about their IRL religion.

More worryingly, we tend to only accept WoG if it's expanding on something already indicated to some extent in the series itself. Like explaining what would happen to a character's power in a weird situation, explaining how a character did a certain feat, or explaining parts of the cosmology that are already discussed canonically. God-Mountain creating the universe has nothing to do with the powers we see it display canonically.

Also worryingly, in the WoG screencap you provided, you didn't include the actual question that was being asked, nor did you link the original source. This makes me worry, because there's a HUGE amount of Godzilla WoG screencaps that are clearly heavily leading with the writers just going "sure whatever lol", or are completely fabricated. For the first camp, see 1, 2, 3, 4. For the second camp, see 1, and 2 (the latter discussed by Cyberblader here).

Edit: A relevant snippet from our Editing Rules
Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements from them that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable.
Click to expand...
Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.
Click to expand...
Edit 2: Also, even if we do accept that beam as AP, God-mountain would still be Unknown without it. With the way your OP's written, it sounds like you'd make it 5-A physically based off of an energy beam, which isn't proper scaling.

Edit 3: I'm also worried about this WoG being used for immortality. It's cropped, unsourced, and the writer has that whole block in quotation marks, as if they're quoting what someone else is saying and are about to respond to it. It is thorough enough, though, so if the full context can be shown I should be okay with it.
 
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Agnaa said:
It seems a bit strange for this to be considered AP and not just "creates a portal under Godzilla that Godzilla falls into" or even "Telekinesis" (LS not AP).

That WoG should not be included even as a "possibly far higher". I'm not on some mindless "NO WOG EVER" crusade, but we need to be careful about this sort of stuff, and the example here is terrible. The only WoG you linked for God-Mountain's rating is so cropped we can't even tell that it applies to God-Mountain, it just says "god is the creator of our universe", as far as I know this could just be a religious person talking about their IRL religion.

More worryingly, we tend to only accept WoG if it's expanding on something already indicated to some extent in the series itself. Like explaining what would happen to a character's power in a weird situation, explaining how a character did a certain feat, or explaining parts of the cosmology that are already discussed canonically. God-Mountain creating the universe has nothing to do with the powers we see it display canonically.

Also worryingly, in the WoG screencap you provided, you didn't include the actual question that was being asked, nor did you link the original source. This makes me worry, because there's a HUGE amount of Godzilla WoG screencaps that are clearly heavily leading with the writers just going "sure whatever lol", or are completely fabricated. For the first camp, see 1, 2, 3, 4. For the second camp, see 1, and 2 (the latter discussed by Cyberblader here).

Edit: A relevant snippet from our Editing Rules


Edit 2: Also, even if we do accept that beam as AP, God-mountain would still be Unknown without it. With the way your OP's written, it sounds like you'd make it 5-A physically based off of an energy beam, which isn't proper scaling.
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God-M can clearly open portals, Yes.

However Godzilla was pushed with God-M Rainbow beam to make Godzilla fall through the portal.

Of course God-M should have a physical Unknown rating, but the beam warrantes tier 5-A for the reason I argumented before.

I'll try to search for the author reply then.

Also I didn't used these replies on God-Mountain profile, 1, 2, 3, 4.
 
However Godzilla was pushed with God-M Rainbow beam to make Godzilla fall through the portal.

That's just not what it looks like to me.

Also I didn't used these replies on God-Mountain profile

I know, I never said you did. I was providing supporting evidence for the writers just going "yeah sure" to whatever wank people asked them about in relation to this character, making similar WoG from them about it dubious.
 
Is as simple as God-M pushed back Godzilla with his rainbow beam in order to make him fall through a portal.

It's as simple as God-M created a portal under Godzilla to BFR him, no durability-check needed. Godzilla's prone in the two panels beforehand, and the last panel has him standing above the portal, not on solid ground.

Bad news the writer who said God-M created the universe turned his twitter into nothing

Well shit, you could still try digging around archives to try and find something.
 
Agnaa said:
Is as simple as God-M pushed back Godzilla with his rainbow beam in order to make him fall through a portal.

It's as simple as God-M created a portal under Godzilla to BFR him, no durability-check needed. Godzilla's prone in the two panels beforehand, and the last panel has him standing above the portal, not on solid ground.

Bad news the writer who said God-M created the universe turned his twitter into nothing

Well shit, you could still try digging around archives to try and find something.
Click to expand...
In the pic I can see 2 positions of Godzilla...

One standing in front of the portal and God's energy blast pushing him back through it.

I have found another WoG that claims God-Mountain to be the embodiment of the creator god.
 
In the pic I can see 2 positions of Godzilla... One standing in front of the portal and God's energy blast pushing him back through it.

Godzilla's not "in front", he's above it. He's not standing on some solid ground that he'd need to be pushed from to fall in. It looks like he naturally falls in because of gravity & the portal being under him.

I have found another WoG that claims God-Mountain to be the embodiment of the creator god.

Well, I can find that tweet this time, but I don't know what that would imply for tiering. And that's the artist for the issue, not any of the multiple writers. And that sorta WoG twitter statement is devoid from any oversight of the publishing company. And there's a whole lot more statements in that thread (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) which seem clearly disjointed from how God Mountain and that version of Godzilla is represented. I really don't think that should be used.
 
Agnaa said:
In the pic I can see 2 positions of Godzilla... One standing in front of the portal and God's energy blast pushing him back through it.

Godzilla's not "in front", he's above it. He's not standing on some solid ground that he'd need to be pushed from to fall in.

I have found another WoG that claims God-Mountain to be the embodiment of the creator god.

Well, I can find that tweet this time, but I don't know what that would imply for tiering. And that's the artist for the issue, not any of the multiple writers. And that sorta WoG twitter statement is devoid from any oversight of the publishing company. And there's a whole lot more statements in that thread (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) which seem clearly disjointed from how God Mountain and that version of Godzilla is represented. I really don't think that should be used.
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I can see two Godzillas in the comic page, obviously the first Godzilla is the one who stands in front of the portal, but as you can notice the rainbow beam changed Godzilla's positioning by pushing him through the portal.

About the replies:

This reply says God-mountain has infinite power BUT only in his realm,

This is talking about Godzilla with God-like powers, something that happened in the comic were Godzilla adquired a divine aura due to hundreds of angels entering to his body.

This is him saying God-mountain is not omnipotent, just omnipresent

And the last one is talking about no official or legitimate pages made by fans

As far as I can see this stuff doesn't contradicts nothing from the comic
 
This reply says God-mountain has infinite power BUT only in his realm,

It doesn't just say that. It also says that God-mountain's true form is "above physical and spiritual existence" and is "the combination of everything that makes up physical existence".

This is talking about Godzilla with God-like powers, something that happened in the comic were Godzilla adquired a divine aura due to hundreds of angels entering to his body.

It doesn't say that, it's responding to a person asking "can godzilla actually destroy the entire universe in one shot?" to which buster responds "Godzilla can indeed destroy the entire universe if he so wanted", no mention of god-like powers. And even if it's for a different form, we don't have 2-C Godzilla.

This is him saying God-mountain is not omnipotent, just omnipresent

Yeah, it's saying that God-mountain is omnipresent. Our profile has him at Immobile with Supersonic attacks. Omnipresence is wildly above that and is never even hinted at in the comic itself.

And the last one is talking about no official or legitimate pages made by fans

You're misrepresenting it. The twitter user asks if God is "Existence, nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism, non-dualism, life and death, and their analogues at any level." Buster responds with "I was the artist not the writer, but I guess that stuff seems fine". Then when pushed on if the picture is legit, Buster says it's fake.

While you are correctly identifying the last part, you're completely ignoring the first part.
 
Hmm I can't not explain that one cause I'm not a native english speaker soo I'm kinda confused with that one.

The second one is refering to Godzilla powered by angels though, but as I said I'm not trying to upgrade Godzilla.

While never mentioned in the comic God-M to be omnipresent this reply brings light over a power of God-M also Moody says God-M is not omnipotent so he is sure about what he is talking.

This one is not legitimate either cause the guy who is asking is saying that the writers of the comic book said God-Mountain is dualism, existence or non existence etc. Soo Moody took his word as something the writers really said.
 
The second one is refering to Godzilla powered by angels though, but as I said I'm not trying to upgrade Godzilla.

It's not good reasoning to say "We need to use this extremely vague WoG statement to give GM a far higher rating, but we can't use a far clearer WoG statement from the same place to give Godzilla a far higher rating."

I'm not saying you're trying to upgrade Godzilla, I'm trying to demonstrate unreliability.

This one is not legitimate either cause the guy who is asking is saying that the writers of the comic book said God-Mountain is dualism, existence or non existence etc. Soo Moody took his word as something the writers really said.

If that's how you wanna see it then whatever.

I thought this would be an easier way to tackle the issue, but there's still the more fundamental issues of "Moody's the artist, not any of the writers, and these tweets don't seem to have any overview from their publishers" and "These statements don't meet our rules for acceptable WoG".
 
Agnaa said:
The second one is refering to Godzilla powered by angels though, but as I said I'm not trying to upgrade Godzilla.

It's not good reasoning to say "We need to use this extremely vague WoG statement to give GM a far higher rating, but we can't use a far clearer WoG statement from the same place to give Godzilla a far higher rating."

I'm not saying you're trying to upgrade Godzilla, I'm trying to demonstrate unreliability.

This one is not legitimate either cause the guy who is asking is saying that the writers of the comic book said God-Mountain is dualism, existence or non existence etc. Soo Moody took his word as something the writers really said.

If that's how you wanna see it then whatever.

I thought this would be an easier way to tackle the issue, but there's still the more fundamental issues of "Moody's the artist, not any of the writers, and these tweets don't seem to have any overview from their publishers" and "These statements don't meet our rules for acceptable WoG".
Click to expand...
I don't understand.

The WoG examples I have posted are similar to the creator god one

  1. Vilgax (Reboot) uses WoG from twitter, same for Way Big here
  2. like Twilight with this WoG
  3. Ramza Beoulve another character that uses Twitter WoG
I mean these questions in Twitter don't look that different to the guy asking stuff to Moody.

Also Moody once said he always consults Ulises and Erick to answer questions
 
  1. Vilgax: The question isn't leading, it's vaguely asking "Why doesn't Alien V use these abilities" and the person responds with a statement that includes "Because we wanted him to take over the universe." Although I do take issue with using this statement the way the profile does since "taking over the universe" can easily be done with Low 5-B AP.
  2. Way Big: This one's asking for clarification on an event in the show, asking if it was another ray seen in the show. I'd also like to mention here that Duncan is one of the four man writers & creators of Ben 10, while Buddy is an artist.
  3. Twilight: Clarification on events in the show, asking for details about something repeatedly done in the show. This response also came from one of the writers.
  4. Ramza: Asking about clarification of story events (if a character died at the end of a story). And the response comes from the game's director and writer. And, it doesn't even seem like that was used for an upgrade, none of its ratings come from that and it doesn't seem to have any abilities from that.
Those statements all come from writers. Are about clarification on events that occurred in the series. And are specific enough to be useful.

Your statement comes from an artist, is not asking about events in the series, and is not very specific (just a statement of "being the embodiment of" someone isn't very useful for tiering, many embodiments are far weaker than the divine beings they embody).
 
Apex_PredatorX said:
Moody talked to the writers in order to answer questions and the second question was about how Earth was rebuild after being destroyed in issue 3.
Click to expand...
Saying he talked to a writer to answer that set of questions is not saying he talks to writers every single time he answers questions.

Also, you cropped out other relevant tweets in that chain, where Buster agreed that GM created the Godzilla Multiverse, that GM rebuilt the Earth when it was destroyed by Godzilla (contradicting the note on Godzilla's profile where it's clarified that that feat didn't take place on Earth), that Godzilla is equal to GM, and that Godzilla can blow up the Christian God.

Such answers clearly go against our standards on WoG.
 
Agnaa said:
Saying he talked to a writer to answer that set of questions is not saying he talks to writers every single time he answers questions.

Also, you cropped out other relevant tweets in that chain, where Buster agreed that GM created the Godzilla Multiverse, that GM rebuilt the Earth when it was destroyed by Godzilla (contradicting the note on Godzilla's profile where it's clarified that that feat didn't take place on Earth), that Godzilla is equal to GM, and that Godzilla can blow up the Christian God.

Such answers clearly go against our standards on WoG.
Click to expand...
The thing is I'm not using those other replies as evidence.

Just the consistent answers saying GM created the Godzilla multiverse.
Is like saying every answer from the makers is wrong cause they replied some questions...

In that case we should not use any WoG in other verses too for the same reason.
 
I wouldn't want to use WoG from a verse where 80% of the WoG statements are ludicrous and contradicted, and the other 20% have no basis in the story but technically aren't contradicted.

If other verses have shit like that, they should get removed too.
 
Agnaa said:
I wouldn't want to use WoG from a verse where 80% of the WoG statements are ludicrous and contradicted, and the other 20% have no basis in the story but technically aren't contradicted.

If other verses have shit like that, they should get removed too.
Click to expand...
You're generalizing a lot...

The other IDW Godzilla comics writers from different continuities don't have any fault if there are some contradictions by GIH writers part.

Like if the Japanese Godzilla authors stuff was the same too.

Also again I'm not presenting the other replies as evidence ... just the consistent GM is the creator of IDW G multiverse.
 
Then don't include the other IDW comic writers, don't include the Japanese Godzilla stuff, just don't use this one.

You cannot ignore that this person when making statements for this series has a huge amount of nonsense contradictory statements, when you're trying to use some of their more tame statements as evidence.

It feels like I'm just repeating myself at this point.
 
Sure, but my issue with that is taking the relevant scan as reason for scaling to Godzilla's dura, instead of as GM just opening a portal beneath Godzilla.

EDIT: Hell, to make things worse, 2 pages before that scan there's a similar rush of rainbow-ness that does nothing to Godzilla. It really seems like a portal was opened beneath him; that the rainbow stuff isn't some 5-A energy wave that knocks him back.
 
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Agnaa said:
Sure, but my issue with that is taking the relevant scan as reason for scaling to Godzilla's dura, instead of as GM just opening a portal beneath Godzilla.
Click to expand...
I mean maybe you have other perspective but I have to point out GM powered Godzilla giving him a HUGE power boost that allowed Godzilla to one-shot Demon SpaceGodzilla who was stronger than his base form who matched Godzilla's base form destroying Earth in the process.

Soo GM definitely scales above God-amped Godzilla.
 
Agnaa said:
Reminder that power bestowal does not mean that you can use that power yourself.
Click to expand...
My mistake.. :v

Anyway I think most People here agreed with the proposal in the OP of GM pushing back G with his energy beam through a portal and that he should scale to G's durability.

Soo I think thats it.
 
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3 of them agreed before seeing any counterarguments. Of the 3 that posted after I started posting, 2 of them agreed.

I've messages multiple staff members to ask for comment. Chill for a bit and give them time to respond, there's no need to rush this thread through in less than a day.
 
Why is the artist relevant authority at WoG? In a comic with 5 writers?

I don't think IDW is ever established to work by the Marvel Method
 
Ok this is just egregious. The thread has been up for less than a day and it is already concluded?

I woke up this morning, saw this thread, went to work, and the thread is now concluding while I'm going home?

Like at least wait a day or two my dude.

As for the actual content of the thread, I don't see why we would take face value statements from the platform that literally forces you to "say less fam". If this was a long form interview where we're led to believe that WoG is actually taking it seriously, you might have something. But based on the scans Agnaa has shown me, it feels more like one off statements with no weight behind them. Remember, context is important. I can't believe I have to stress this.
 
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