Giselle is NOT transgender or female (Redux)

[Arcker123]

Remaking at the request of @LephyrTheRevanchist

Premise
We have Giselle's gender rating as "Female." To put it bluntly, I believe this is an innacurate description of his identity and is mainly based on misunderstanding Kubo's writing. We should simply change this to "Male." To be clear, Giselle is a man in both gender and sex, and is simply a perverted crossdresser, not a trans character.

Important Preface
I am not making this thread to attack trans people of the beliefs of trans people. I simply just do not believe Giselle is trans and the profile should reflect that. This is about correcting misinformation, so please keep this civil.

Arguments

• Giselle is called a man by Kubo. WoG is treated on shaky ground, but this is supported by the manga for reasons I will explain. This statement should be taken as a literal explanation of what he should be listed. This should at least prove Kubo doesn't intend for Giselle to be interpreted as trans and is just a man.
• Giselle produces *****. Pretty blatantly proving he is biologically male, which nobody denies.

Giselle is not Trans

• There are pretty much no arguments for Trans Giselle aside from his being feminine and his disdain for being called a man, the former is just laughable (Doesn't prove anything) and the latter I will debunk.
• Giselle does not disdain being called a man because he believes himself to be trans or a woman, but because he's a sicko. This is what Kubo is trying to convey about the character. This interpretation is supported by WoG and the Manga, which goes out of it's way to crush Giselle every time he uses feminine language through Yumichika's dialougue. Kubo would not be doing this if Giselle was intended to be trans, Giselle is treated this way because he is simply a sicko who gets off on crossdressing and preforming sexually deviant. Yumichika outright states as much. Simply put, Giselle doesn't act like he does not because he's trans, but because he is a weirdo.
• Giselle is directly implied to be a crossdresser
• There is simply no clear evidence for Giselle being trans, whereas my position is backed up by everything we have.

Spoiler: Addressing The Elephant In The Room

No, this is not gonna get us nuked by Fandom.

The bleach fandom wiki and us have come to numerous disagreements, such as the canonicity of novels, but that hasn't stopped us from treating it that way. Fact of the matter is, Bleach wiki fans aren't OP fans, they do not care enough to nuke us, and Giselle isn't popular enough for that to happen. We are fine.

This is meant to address the complaint that we might get Fandom on us if we change it or sum. I find this complaint quite irrational.

Conclusion
Giselle is a psychopathic cross dresser, not trans. He is still a man, he just likes acting like a girl to fulfil his twisted sexual fantasies, he does not actually believe he is a girl. This is why Kubo dedicates time to deconstructing the "sweet innocent girl" trope Giselle comes off as to show how twisted he is. There is more importantly no explicit evidence Giselle is trans as well.

Agree: @Ped2018

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I take full responsibility for the moderation of this thread. For those that want to comment, send me a PM with the exact message you want to add to the discussion.

To be kept in mind, you are only allowed one comment, so make it count. Naturally, as the OP, @Arcker123 is fully allowed to participate.

 

[Arcker123]

@KingogKings777 PM'd this to me to support my arg

Here are the scans I got along with the a thread I made so you can see their arguments or whatever.

The thread.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/giselle-the-waifu-to-rule-them-all.142183/


These scans and this one from an art book. Asked some people to translate it but they said it had nothing to do with gender but no clue since I might have phased my question wrong.

 

[Maitreya12]

Ok I was given permission to comment so this’ll be my one post in the thread:

Kubo refers to Giselle using she/her pronouns. The statement Kubo made in the OP is simply in reference to her biological sex, not her gender identity. Otherwise he wouldn’t be using she/her pronouns when talking in reference to her.

Giselle also identifies herself using she/her pronouns. Yumichika is just referring to her actual physical body with his statement, not her gender identity. Giselle clarifies her gender identity herself.

So, considering both Kubo and Giselle themselves both refer to her using she/her pronouns, that means she identifies as female. Calling her male can just be in reference to her biological sex, something Yumachika was even specifically referring to in his statement about her.

 

[Arcker123]

Kubo refers to Giselle using she/her pronouns.

This could just be chalked up to human error. I've definitely mistakenly called him a she on occasions. This is hardly conclusive evidence for your position, when there is direct evidence against yours. Kubo directly calling Giselle a man > this

The statement Kubo made in the OP is simply in reference to her biological sex, not her gender identity

No justification for this at all. Kubo's intent is for him to be a guy, this is not only shown through her characterization in the manga, but in that statement. My interpretation has more basis and doesn't rely on unnecessary and baseless assumptions.

Otherwise he wouldn’t be using she/her pronouns when talking in reference to her.

He wouldn't call him a guy either. Idk why you're going so hard on what could be chalked up to human error, especially given the fact Kubo also directly calls her a guy multiple times. Occams razor means we should treat statements like "Giselle is actually a guy" to refer to gender. That's Kubo's intent.

Giselle also identifies herself using she/her pronouns. Yumichika is just referring to her actual physical body with his statement, not her gender identity. Giselle clarifies her gender identity herself.

I've already responded to this in the OP. Giselle just gets off on the act he puts on. That's why Yumichika's dialogue is important. It's meant to show he's just an actor and acting out his perverted fantasies, and he gets mad when someone shows his act to be false. He doesn't actually believe himself to be a woman and you can't prove that.

So, considering both Kubo and Giselle themselves both refer to her using she/her pronouns, that means she identifies as female. Calling her male can just be in reference to her biological sex, something Yumachika was even specifically referring to in his statement about her.

You cherry picked one instance of Kubo potentially mistakenly referring to him as a woman and misinterpreted the Yumichika fight as explained in the OP. You have no justification for your assumptions at all, and you're making a ton of assumptions. Giselle is a man bruh, a really creepy man.

Edit: To simplify my rebuttal, Maitreya's argument against Kubo's direct statements fail because they are far too assumptive. For his argument to work, he has to assume Kubo is referring to a completely un referenced concept both in the statement and he has no justification for these assumptions. Occams Razor alone suggests my side is superior, but in addition to that, we have things like Charlotte's statement, which further prove Giselle is a guy.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Occams razor means we should treat statements like "Giselle is actually a guy" to refer to gender. That's Kubo's intent.

Occams razor is that the view with the least assumptions is probably right. If the character is continously angry at being called a cross dresser and expresses consistent frustrations at being called a man that would lean more towards MTF than weird cross dresser.

 

[Arcker123]

Occams razor is that the view with the least assumptions is probably right. If the character is continously angry at being called a cross dresser and expresses consistent frustrations at being called a man that would lean more towards MTF than weird cross dresser.

That's a strawman tho

Kubo on multiple occasions: Giselle is a guy

Occams razor alone means we treat her as a guy, that's what I was arguing, which you didn't give a response. Give a justification as to why you're claims are less assumptive than mine, when I have the backing of the author statements and the narrative at large.

None of this is concrete proof she is trans.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's a strawman tho

That's not a strawman. That's literally how Occams Razor is supposed to be used.

Give a justification as to why you're claims are less assumptive than mine

I'm disagreeing with your usage of Occams Razor as evidence, because what you present mostly doesn't meet that outside of WoG. I wasnt addressing your point on if the character is trans or not. From what I can see the only pro-trans quote is vaguer WoG and implications, which isn't a lot.

 

[Arcker123]

That's not a strawman. That's literally how Occams Razor is supposed to be used.

You were misconstruing how I was using Occams Razor in my argument, and I explained that in my comment.

I'm disagreeing with your usage of Occams Razor as evidence, because what you present mostly doesn't meet that outside of WoG.

The point is you didn't actually present a critique of my usage of the Razor. You just rabbit trailed onto a different application and didn't address my usage as I outlined here:

Edit: To simplify my rebuttal, Maitreya's argument against Kubo's direct statements fail because they are far too assumptive. For his argument to work, he has to assume Kubo is referring to a completely un referenced concept both in the statement and he has no justification for these assumptions. Occams Razor alone suggests my side is superior, but in addition to that, we have things like Charlotte's statement, which further prove Giselle is a guy.

This is why I claimed u were straw-manning.

I wasnt addressing your point on if the character is trans or not. From what I can see the only pro-trans quote is vaguer WoG and implications, which isn't a lot.

Okie Dokes.

 

[Deagonx]

I agree with Qawsedf and Maitreya's points, personally.

 

[Promestein]

'Giselle, the character who gets pissed off when someone calls her a man or implies she's a crossdresser and who is generally treated as a girl by the other girl Sternritter (you know, her friends, or at least 'friends'), isn't actually trans, she's just a sicko' is kinda blatantly transphobic rhetoric, I think.

Kubo saying she's a man is more evidence of Kubo maybe being a bit transphobic (to say the least) than Giselle actually being a cis guy, especially given how she reacts (anger and violence) to being misgendered. Kubo isn't presenting her as a sicko weirdo to show that she's not actually trans, he's presenting her as a sicko weirdo because, well... the vibe is because that's how he sees trans people.

The term trans does not need to come up within the story for the character to at least most likely be trans.

Thread should've stayed closed.

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah, I was trying to be generous but Prom is right. The scattered bits of really harsh language applied to this make me very uncomfortable and give really weird vibes about the intentions here, and with three staff disagrees from the jump we should just close this and move on.

 

[KingTempest]

Okay.

I don't care about this thread, but people have been doing it a lot lately to justify their POV.

Can we please stop calling authors homo/transphobic against their own characters.

They aren't. It just means their perception of their sexuality and gender identity and how they think the character is is different than what you guys believe it to be.

Can we say "the author is wrong"? Okay. Let's not call them transphobic

 

[Arcker123]

I wasnt addressing your point on if the character is trans or not. From what I can see the only pro-trans quote is vaguer WoG and implications, which isn't a lot.

Qawsed blatantly hasn't voted yet.

'Giselle, the character who gets pissed off when someone calls her a man or implies she's a crossdresser and who is generally treated as a girl by the other girl Sternritter (you know, her friends, or at least 'friends'), isn't actually trans, she's just a sicko' is kinda blatantly transphobic rhetoric, I think.

Addressed this multiple times. Nothing new here besides the ad homs.

Is it not appropriate call him a sicko though? He literally rapes corpses. Even beyond the gender issue, Giselle is a sicko. I'm not claiming he's a sicko because he's a crossdresser or sum, just that it's meant to be a deconstruction of the innocent girl trope he appears as.

Kubo saying she's a man is more evidence of Kubo maybe being a bit transphobic (to say the least)

This is nothing more than emotional cope. I do not say this to be offensive, but because I don't have a much better way to put it. You're denying author statements to support your assumed conclusions.

especially given how she reacts (anger and violence) to being misgendered

Ur presuming the conclusion in the argument. This is a flawed arg.

Kubo isn't presenting her as a sicko weirdo to show that she's not actually trans, he's presenting her as a sicko weirdo because, well... the vibe is because that's how he sees trans people.

He's deconstructing the innocent girl trope by having that girl turn out to be a man and a necrophile. This isn't hard to see. Kubo thinks of him as a man, and the manga does to, that's all that matters.

The term trans does not need to come up within the story for the character to at least most likely be trans.

U don't have a good argument for ur assumption he is trans though. You'd need some justification at least.

Yeah, I was trying to be generous but Prom is right. The scattered bits of really harsh language applied to this make me very uncomfortable and give really weird vibes about the intentions here, and with three staff disagrees from the jump we should just close this and move on.

Many mods already showed sympathy to my view in the first thread. Don't be so quick to close and run from the argument.

---

This might be breaking the one post per person rule (Which if it does, I'm sorry), but @KingogKings777, provided me sum scans to debunk this:

Kubo refers to Giselle using she/her pronouns. The statement Kubo made in the OP is simply in reference to her biological sex, not her gender identity. Otherwise he wouldn’t be using she/her pronouns when talking in reference to her.

This is the response I got about it when asking some people I know who translate stuff.

Basically, there is no good source for this claim.

 

[KingTempest]

Also

Kubo isn't presenting her as a sicko weirdo to show that she's not actually trans, he's presenting her as a sicko weirdo because, well... the vibe is because that's how he sees trans people.

Incorrect.
He presents her as a sicko weirdo because she rapes zombies of her own making

 

[Promestein]

He presents her as a sicko weirdo because she rapes zombies of her own making

I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that Kubo also presents her as a crossdresser who flies into rages after being called a man. Completely distinct trains of thought in his head, I'm sure.

I'm not even going to engage with this further. Completely slammed by the argument of 'cope'. Yeah, I'm itching for the necrophile rapist to be confirmed trans, that's what the trans community really needs.

 

[Moritzva]

Okay.

I don't care about this thread, but people have been doing it a lot lately to justify their POV.

Can we please stop calling authors homo/transphobic against their own characters.

They aren't. It just means their perception of their sexuality and gender identity and how they think the character is is different than what you guys believe it to be.

Can we say "the author is wrong"? Okay. Let's not call them transphobic

This is a bad argument.

Authors absolutely can write stereotypes or harmful characterizations into their stories. Acting like they can't is just naive, flanderizing groups you dislike in your work has been a thing since essentially the dawn of time. Sure, proving it can be difficult, I'll agree with that. Someone could definitely believe that he is not doing that. But saying that they definitely aren't, and furthermore, that they can't do these things, is a comically ignorant statement.

This thread has taken all of three seconds to devolve into territories well beyond what should be allowed on the wiki. I can see the writing on the wall, and between lowkey personal attacks and claims that authors can't make political caricatures (which is quite literally the dumbest statement I have ever seen on this wiki, ever), I'm closing this thread. Don't open another one.

 

[Moritzva]

Oh, and if anyone tries to whine and say that this thread was closed because of The Lib Agenda

1. I don't care about Bleach. I also disagree with Fandom on the Yamato situation and I think that is pretty dumb.

2. What I do care about is when a highly sensitive topic is debated with the serene grace of rebuking an opposing argument with

This is nothing more than emotional cope.

I could let this thread stay open, because yeah, things could definitely get a lot worse. However, I'm not going to let things get a lot worse. It's pretty transparently obvious that Arcker123 is going to struggle to debate a sensitive topic with the care it deserves, and I'd rather save both him and everyone else some trouble and nip it in the bud.

Cheers.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I definitely agree with Promestein and Moritzva here.