Giselle the waifu to rule them all

[KingogKings777]

Giselle is currently listed as female under their profile. It should be changed to male since Kubo confirmed in a question in his Klub Kubo that the character is male.

Agrees	Disagrees	Neutrals
KingogKings777,Bernkastelll​	Arcker123, Maitreya, LordTracer,​ Damage3245​	LaserPrecision,​ Dread​

 

[Arcker123]

 

[Maitreya12]

Oh my ******* god-

Ok, let’s debunk this real quick so we can close this CRT and be done with this.

1) The statement is in reference to her biology and not her gender identity.

2) Kubo identifies Giselle as female since literally when asked about her he uses female pronouns when addressing her.

3) Giselle herself identifies herself as female so the wiki does the same

There you can close the CRT now

 

[KingogKings777]

Oh my ******* god-

Mald.

Ok, let’s debunk this real quick so we can close this CRT and be done with this.

1) The statement is in reference to her biology and not her gender identity.

It's not though, it's in reference to their gender.

2) Kubo identifies Giselle as female since literally when asked about her he uses female pronouns when addressing her.

Kubo in the scan just identified Giselle as a dude. I don't know what to tell you.

3) Giselle herself identifies herself as female so the wiki does the same

And the wiki is wrong since it caused this CRT.

There you can close the CRT now

 

[Maitreya12]

Mald.

Seethe that the wiki ain’t accepting this

It's not though, it's in reference to their gender.

Prove it. Prove the context of the questions infer usage of gender identity by the statement

Kubo in the scan just identified Giselle as a dude. I don't know what to tell you.

Kubo literally refers to Giselle as female so I don’t know what to tell you actually. Would you like me to post the link here since I know I already linked it to you.

And the wiki is wrong since it caused this CRT.

No it is not. Giselle identifying herself as female is why the wiki identifies her as such. To say the wiki is wrong is to say Giselle is wrong in how she identifies herself.

 

[KingogKings777]

Seethe that the wiki ain’t accepting this

That's fine if the wiki want's to be wrong.

Prove it. Prove the context of the questions infer usage of gender identity by the statement

It's asking if Giselle is a chick or dude. It's that simple.

Kubo literally refers to Giselle as female so I don’t know what to tell you actually. Would you like me to post the link here since I know I already linked it to you.

It's weird how he referring to Giselle guys gender though.

No it is not. Giselle identifying herself as female is why the wiki identifies her as such. To say the wiki is wrong is to say Giselle is wrong in how she identifies herself.

Kubo said Giselles is a guy, so Giselle is now >>> Kubo? Kubo is the author, he created Giselle the character and knows the most about them. He also declared that Giselle is a guy so...

 

[Maitreya12]

That's fine if the wiki want's to be wrong.

Too bad it’s not. It’s simply you who’s wrong.

It's asking if Giselle is a chick or dude. It's that simple.

Right so now demonstrate that the usage of the term male is for gender. Male can mean your sex or it can mean your gender. Or it can mean both. Because it’s pretty easy to demonstrate it means biological sex in this context and phrasing. Can the same be said about referring exclusively to gender.

It's weird how he referring to Giselle guys gender though.

It’s not weird since it can just be in reference to her biology. Making the statements non contradictory.

Kubo said Giselles is a guy, so Giselle is now >>> Kubo? Kubo is the author, he created Giselle the character and knows the most about them. He also declared that Giselle is a guy so...

The problem is you think there is a contradiction between Kubo’s words, but since there is none your point is moot. Kubo literally identifies Giselle as female. Why does he say “she” when talking about Giselle hm?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

not another gender thread again. It always becomes heated

 

[KingogKings777]

not another gender thread again. It always becomes heated

There's other Giselle threads?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

There's other Giselle threads?

no other thread about gender

 

[Maitreya12]

Actually wait I can close the thread easily. Just invoke Occam’s razor

Both of Kubo’s statements and Giselle’s own identification can all exist simultaneously. To invoke a contradiction goes against Occam’s razor.

There we can close the thread now

 

[KingogKings777]

Too bad it’s not. It’s simply you who’s wrong.

Cool, we'll find out once this gets accepted or not.

Right so now demonstrate that the usage of the term male is for gender. Male can mean your sex or it can mean your gender. Or it can mean both. Because it’s pretty easy to demonstrate it means biological sex in this context and phrasing. Can the same be said about referring exclusively to gender.

So why wouldn't it mean both in this context? Since that's what it means.

It’s not weird since it can just be in reference to her biology. Making the statements non contradictory.

That's the weird part cause you have to take all these extra steps to make it about biology when it's talking about both. Giselle by WoG is a guy. I'm not saying that Kubo is.

The problem is you think there is a contradiction between Kubo’s words, but since there is none your point is moot. Kubo literally identifies Giselle as female. Why does he say “she” when talking about Giselle hm?

There is though since he's talking about both Giselles gender and biology.

Also, it's not like after Giselle's appearance changed once chapter 588 happened. From rounded and feminine looking to spindly and angular, it's just like how Unohana's appearance changed once her secret was revealed.

 

[Maitreya12]

Cool, we'll find out once this gets accepted or not.

It won’t.

So why wouldn't it mean both in this context? Since that's what it means.

Can you prove it means both? Exclusively? Especially when Giselle herself identifies as female?

That's the weird part cause you have to take all these extra steps to make it about biology when it's talking about both. Giselle by WoG is a guy. I'm not saying that Kubo is.

No I don’t. I’m not taking any extra steps in anything, I’m talking the most simple option. That being no contradiction in anything Kubo says. You are invoking a contradiction when there doesn’t need to be one, so you’re the one taking extra steps here.

There is though since he's talking about both Giselles gender and biology.

Prove it.

Also, it's not like after Giselle's appearance changed once chapter 588 happened. From rounded and feminine looking to spindly and angular, it's just like how Unohana's appearance changed once her secret was revealed.

Ok cool literally every character associated with Giselle still refers to her as female even in the novels. And even the author himself identifies her as female when talking about her even after the manga ended.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Prove it.

Why don't you just invoke death of the author? Even if the author was referring to both, the story contradicts them as the character refers to themself as female. The story takes precedence over the author.

 

[KingogKings777]

It won’t.

Well, who knows stranger things have happened.

Can you prove it means both? Exclusively? Especially when Giselle herself identifies as female?

Yeah if you read the image that got posted it does. Kubo states that Giselle is a guy in response to a question asking is Giselle a woman or not. Like I can't spell this out any easier for you.

No I don’t. I’m not taking any extra steps in anything, I’m talking the most simple option. That being no contradiction in anything Kubo says. You are invoking a contradiction when there doesn’t need to be one, so you’re the one taking extra steps here.

You are though. The simplest option is taking Kubo word as it is and that is Giselle is a guy.

Prove it.

Well if you scroll all the way up to this first post that has a picture. It says 'Giselle is a guy.' the person who's saying that is Kubo.

Ok cool literally every character associated with Giselle still refers to her as female even in the novels.

Good for them, and other character called Giselle a guy. The other characters are right on this one.

And even the author himself identifies her as female when talking about her even after the manga ended.

You got the scans for that so I can get them checked?

 

[Maitreya12]

Why don't you just invoke death of the author? Even if the author was referring to both, the story contradicts them as the character refers to themself as female. The story takes precedence over the author.

Because why would I lol. There’s no contradiction between Kubo and the manga. The context and phrasing of the question indicate it’s referring just to her biology making his statement true, and Kubo identifies Giselle with female pronouns every time he talks about her. So there’s no need to invoke death of the author. I can just invoke Occam’s razor.

But yes, there’s many ways in which this argument doesn’t hold together

 

[KingogKings777]

Because why would I lol. There’s no contradiction between Kubo and the manga. The context and phrasing of the question indicate it’s referring just to her biology making his statement true, and Kubo identifies Giselle with female pronouns every time he talks about her. So there’s no need to invoke death of the author. I can just invoke Occam’s razor.

But yes, there’s many ways in which this argument doesn’t hold together

You do understand what Occam's Razor is right?

 

[KingogKings777]

Why don't you just invoke death of the author? Even if the author was referring to both, the story contradicts them as the character refers to themself as female. The story takes precedence over the author.

So you want a person to claim that their view of the story is = or > to the author's? Go for it.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Because why would I lol. There’s no contradiction between Kubo and the manga.

Feel it would end things quicker on the opposing side if their only argument (an statement made by the author) didn't hold as much weight as the story and thus the foundation of their argument is invalidated. Though you are right.

 

[LaserPrecision]

So you want a person to claim that their view of the story is = or > to the author's? Go for it.

That's not at all what I said.

 

[KingogKings777]

That's not at all what I said.

So what is death of the author?

 

[Maitreya12]

Well, who knows stranger things have happened.

Yes anything can happen. I just have simple faith in people that a topic like this wouldn’t be passed.

Yeah if you read the image that got posted it does. Kubo states that Giselle is a guy in response to a question asking is Giselle a woman or not. Like I can't spell this out any easier for you.

Ok cool. That question can just be in reference to her biology. Making the statement by Kubo true. But you’re trying to claim it’s both biology and gender. So can you prove that. Or can you simple not understand the basic concept of trying to one thing over the other when there are multiple options presented.

You are though. The simplest option is taking Kubo word as it is and that is Giselle is a guy.

But you’re trying to say this is reference to Giselle’s gender as well as her sex. Which contradicts how Kubo himself identifies Giselle with female pronouns earlier before. So since the option of the statement being in reference to her biology alone invokes no contradiction in any words Kubo has said, it is therefore the simplest option.

Well if you scroll all the way up to this first post that has a picture. It says 'Giselle is a guy.' the person who's saying that is Kubo.

Cool, now prove this is in reference to both her sex and her gender instead of just her biological sex.

Good for them, and other character called Giselle a guy. The other characters are right on this one.

Why is the other minority character right over the majority who are more closely associated with said character and the character herself.

You got the scans for that so I can get them checked?

Yeah I linked them to you. You know I linked them to you too.

 

[Maitreya12]

You do understand what Occam's Razor is right?

Yes I do. Do you understand it? Do you understand that having the least contradictions is the simplest option?

 

[LaserPrecision]

So what is death of the author?

Death of the author means the author's interpretation doesn't hold as much weight as what's in the story. Say I made a story, and said the world in that universe is a cube. But in the story, the universe is spherical and it's only acknowledged to be spherical in the story. It means that since my words contradict what is shown in the story, I'm wrong, as the story itself takes precedence even over what the author says. The ONLY exception is a retcon which is when something in a story is rewritten or alters a past event.

 

[Maitreya12]

So what is death of the author?

When the author contradicts his own manga. Which would be true in your position. Which is yet another contradiction to stock pile onto your argument.

 

[KingogKings777]

Feel it would end things quicker on the opposing side if their only argument (an statement made by the author) didn't hold as much weight as the story and this the foundation of their argument is invalidated. Though you are right.

Here we got databook/extra stuff calling Giselle a male. Here Giselle is a male by Yumichika 1 and 2. Charlette exposing Giselle as a crossdresser. And you also have the latest which is the above of Kubo stating that Giselle is a guy.

 

[KingogKings777]

Yes I do. Do you understand it? Do you understand that having the least contradictions is the simplest option?

Me - Kubo states Giselle's a guy, therefor Giselle is a guy.
You - Kubo actually meant Giselles a guy, but Giselles still a chick though. Kubo was only taking about his biologically sex, not his gender.
What one has the least amount of jumping through hoops?

 

[KingogKings777]

When the author contradicts his own manga. Which would be true in your position. Which is yet another contradiction to stock pile onto your argument.

The author isn't contradicting is own manga though. Giselle has always been a guy.

 

[KingogKings777]

Death of the author means the author's interpretation doesn't hold as much weight as what's in the story. Say I made a story, and said the world in that universe is a cube. But in the story, the universe is spherical and it's only acknowledged to be spherical in the story. It means that since my words contradict what is shown in the story, I'm wrong, as the story itself takes precedence even over what the author says. The ONLY exception is a retcon which is when something in a story is rewritten or alters a past event.

And it's usually understood as meaning that a writer's views about their own work are no more or less valid than the interpretations of any given reader.

 

[LaserPrecision]

What one has the least amount of jumping through hoops?

You missed a step. To make your claim, you have to explain the contradiction of the character referring to themself as female. But with their interpretation, they don't. Because it just means they self identify as female, but their biological sex is male.

 

[LaserPrecision]

And it's usually understood as meaning that a writer's views about their own work are no more or less valid than the interpretations of any given reader.

Even if that's so. What's the problem with that? If the author's interpretation contradicts the work, and the reader's views aren't contradicted, it just means the author is wrong. Plain and simple.

 

[KingogKings777]

Yes anything can happen. I just have simple faith in people that a topic like this wouldn’t be passed.

Why would that be?

Ok cool. That question can just be in reference to her biology. Making the statement by Kubo true. But you’re trying to claim it’s both biology and gender. So can you prove that. Or can you simple not understand the basic concept of trying to one thing over the other when there are multiple options presented. Cool, now prove this is in reference to both her sex and her gender instead of just her biological sex.

I did by showing you already. By using Occam’s razor it's referring to both since it's the simplest of options.

But you’re trying to say this is reference to Giselle’s gender as well as her sex. Which contradicts how Kubo himself identifies Giselle with female pronouns earlier before.

Yes, cause they are the same.

So since the option of the statement being in reference to her biology alone invokes no contradiction in any words Kubo has said, it is therefore the simplest option.

It contradicts Kubo himself who stated that Giselle is a guy. Also, that isn't the simplest option as shown in post 27.

Why is the other minority character right over the majority who are more closely associated with said character and the character herself.

Well since the minority was backed by the author their take was correct.

Yeah I linked them to you. You know I linked them to you too.

There were no raws in what you linked to get checked. Only a tumblr post without raws for me to get checked.

 

[KingogKings777]

Even if that's so. What's the problem with that? If the author's interpretation contradicts the work, and the reader's views aren't contradicted, it just means the author is wrong. Plain and simple.

The reader's views are contradicted though that's the issue here. And sadly Kubo's interpretation doesn't contradict his work.

 

[LaserPrecision]

The reader's views are contradicted though that's the issue here. And sadly Kubo's interpretation doesn't contradict his work.

His interpretation does contradict the work if they say the character self identifies as male if the character self identifies as female in the series. (I don't read the series, so I don't know if the character self identifies as female, but I heard they do in the thread)

 

[KingogKings777]

You missed a step. To make your claim, you have to explain the contradiction of the character referring to themself as female. But with their interpretation, they don't. Because it just means they self identify as female, but their biological sex is male.

The only time Giselle ever refers to themselves as female is to save their skin/get cut by the people, a bluff/taunt basically.

 

[LaserPrecision]

The only time Giselle ever refers to themselves as female is to save their skin/get cut by the people, a bluff/taunt basically.

Mmm, if that's true, I'd prolly lean in your favor. But I'll stay neutral to hear what the opposition says.

 

[KingogKings777]

Mmm, if that's true, I'd prolly lean in your favor. But I'll stay neutral to hear what the opposition says.

I will say in advance I will change my opinion if Kubo comes out tomorrow and says Giselle is female/trans.

 

[Maitreya12]

Me - Kubo states Giselle's a guy, therefor Giselle is a guy.
You - Kubo actually meant Giselles a guy, but Giselles still a chick though. Kubo was only taking about his biologically sex, not his gender.
What one has the least amount of jumping through hoops?

Me-Giselle and Kubo identify Giselle as female, therefore Giselle is female.
You-Well actually Kubo meant both her sex and gender was male even though he uses female pronouns for her, but he actually thinks Giselle is a guy even if he keeps referring to her with female pronouns.

Yeah, looks like you have to jump more hoops since you think Kubo contradicts himself. Meanwhile there are no contradictions here.

 

[KingogKings777]

Me-Giselle and Kubo identify Giselle as female, therefore Giselle is female.
You-Well actually Kubo meant both her sex and gender was male even though he uses female pronouns for her, but he actually thinks Giselle is a guy even if he keeps referring to her with female pronouns.

Yeah, looks like you have to jump more hoops since you think Kubo contradicts himself. Meanwhile there are no contradictions here.

Kubo doesn't contradict himself since Giselle is a guy.

 

[Maitreya12]

Why would that be?

Because I like to have optimism in people’s ability for good.

I did by showing you already. By using Occam’s razor it's referring to both since it's the simplest of options.

No you didn’t. You just used Occam’s razor incorrectly because you invoked more contradictions.

Yes, cause they are the same.

Well oxford definitions would like to have a word with you.

It contradicts Kubo himself who stated that Giselle is a guy. Also, that isn't the simplest option as shown in post 27.

Cool, Male can be in reference to just her biology instead of both her gender and biology. So prove he was using it for both sex and gender. Also yes it is since it invokes less contradiction as shown in post 38.

Well since the minority was backed by the author their take was correct.

The majority was backed by the author too, which means you’re saying the author is contradicting himself. So this is not the simplest option.

There were no raws in what you linked to get checked. Only a tumblr post without raws for me to get checked.

Why would I have the raws scan with me? I looked for the translations and found them. There are no raws in the image you posted.