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Giorno Giovanna vs Yhwach

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Neither is BFR to alternate universes.

Also Creepe, you're right on that it's time+precog, but due to how fate is played straight within Part 5, it aint fate manipulation for KC but it is effectively fate manip as a byproduct of the universe, he aint manipulating it, but he's seeing fate (although he does have minor fate manip via forecasted trails which are outright said to be fate but that's a tad different).
 
Zel, Arbitrary said he was making a blog and maybe a CRT after so idk.
 
In conclusion,i believe this fight will either be a stomp for yhwach via RC or a win for Giorno via willpower manipulation.If someone disagrees i'll try my best to get some free time tomorrow(getting late here)
 
And will power manipulation, and death manipulation, and BFR and time manipulation and even a bit of matter manipulation and several other things. See the issue with assuming its just that?
 
You cant BFR someone across parallel worlds to someone who's never been to a different world before while simutaneously creating a brand new unique death that is different from the last nonstop for eternity with causality manipulation.

And will power manipulation too, you can C&E someone back to before they wanted to do something but doing it with zero action or event to use C&E on? Not quite.
 
I've compiled an analysis of The Almighty vs GER (please feel free to correct me):

1) "Can observe all possible futures".

Where Yhwash can see everything that CAN happen, Epitaph can see what will INEVITABLY happen.
GER's ability couldn't be seen by Epitaph. If Epitaph couldn't see GER, The Almighty couldn't either.

2) "Can choose which futures can exist, rewriting fate"

Epitaph couldn't see a future affected by GER, even though all of it's prior predictions were on point.
We can assume that The Almighty cannot predict (and change) an outcome affected by GER because neither can Epitaph.

3) "Can set up traps in opponent's future path and can circumvent any defensive measures his opponent takes."

Since this ability relies on something existing in the future in order to counter it (like a sword), it won't affect GER's ability, since it doesn't exist yet.
As for offence, say Yhwach broke Giorno's back in the future, when it happens in the present, GER can just reset it (Ripping Giorno's head off is also a possibility, but GER's ability activates instantly regardless of concious thought).

4) "Can rewrite a future in which he has died"

Epitaph couldn't predict that Diavolo would lose, therefor Yhwach cannot predict that he will die if he also can't predict GER killing him via RTZ.

5) "Can tame any power in the future so that it doesn't harm him"

Yhwach can only tame a power he predicts will exist. GER's ability has to be predictable to be able to be tamed.

6) "Can see what his opponent's abilities are by looking into the future"

Again, Epitaph (who can predict a future that will happen no matter what) couldn't predict
GER's RTZ, which extends towards The Almighty.

Sources:
1) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yhwach#Yhwach

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgb8uRsCEtU
 
Hizack123 said:
Either incon or stomp for Yhwach via pure AP is what i am seeing from this thread so far.
Click to expand...
Willpower manip ignores durability doesnt really matter if you have 2-B level AP
 
A lot of problems with that analysis.

  • SK Yhwach's Almighty can affect Yhwach himself who cannot be seen by his normal Almighty.
  • Any action of Yhwach's resists causality manip so tgey arent getting reset by GER's causality manip.
  • Whenever Yhwach died, it was because he didn't have the Almighty active. He still proceeded to change use ut after the fact.
 
I agree with Anon here tbh, especially on the precog point. Yhwach can see all possible futures and thousands of years into the future at that. He'll be able to see Gio's actions unlike Epitaph who can only see the immediate future up to 10 seconds. Yhwach can see a lot more and see a lot further.
 
Is "Rejecting Past Events" comparable enough to "Reseting Actions" that we can say Yhwach resists?

Even though both are technically causality manipulation, they're also completely different.
 
What yhwach are we even talking about here?

I'm only see causality manip resist in soul king key

Ahh well still incon or Yhwach stomp tho.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
I agree with Anon here tbh, especially on the precog point. Yhwach can see all possible futures and thousands of years into the future at that. He'll be able to see Gio's actions unlike Epitaph who can only see the immediate future up to 10 seconds. Yhwach can see a lot more and see a lot further.
Click to expand...
I'm going to call you out on this, not how that works. Being able to see further ahead doesnt effect the potency of howgood it can see. If Epitaph, who sees a guranteed future couldn't then tough luck, Yhwach having good range on his doesn't mean he can now somehow see GER's actions.

It's like saying someone who can soulfuck across the universe can soulfuck someone who no sold getting soul haxed by someone who can soulhax and manipulate souls on a very potent level, but only within a few meters. Same ability, different range.
 
Considering Orihime rejects past events in such a manner that people believe it to be time reversal (ie resetting her target), its safe to say Yhwach resists GER's.

Not sure why Prince mentioned the range but my point was that SK Yhwach (the version being used by SBA) can see people who are unaffected by his normal Almighty. Epitaph seeing the gyaranteed future doesn't matter much when base Almighty sees it and picks it while SK is a step up.
 
>Considering Orihime rejects past events in such a manner that people believe it to be time reversal (ie resetting her target), its safe to say Yhwach resists GER's.

But that makes the comparison faulty, because that isn't what GER does. It's two different types of powers that have a similia outcome but are done via different methods. It's like comparing ice manip and heat manip, both can make ice but via different methods.
 
I'm going to call you out on this, not how that works. Being able to see further ahead doesnt effect the potency of howgood it can see. If Epitaph, who sees a guranteed future couldn't then tough luck, Yhwach having good range on his doesn't mean he can now somehow see GER's actions.


Your issue seems to be that you misunderstand how Yhwach's precog works in comparison to that of Epitaph. Yhwach can view multiple futures at once and understand them clearly. To give you an example with the Almighty Yhwach can view the future as if they were grains of sand. Not only can Yhwach see the guaranteed future through the Almighty but he can also see any other possible futures all at once. Epitaph's precog pails in comparison to that of Yhwach's. To say Yhwach cant view GER's actions is like me saying Elrad from Warhammer cant view GER since Epitaph couldn't. Yhwach's precog is objectively better than that of Epitaph. And Yhwach also has feats of bypassing Resistance to precog after absorbing Mimihagi. In other words, Yhwach would still be able to perceive GER's actions, unless he has type 2 or 4 acusality then your argument is moot.


It's like saying someone who can soulfuck across the universe can soulfuck someone who no sold getting soul haxed by someone who can soulhax and manipulate souls on a very potent level, but only within a few meters. Same ability, different range.


This is a very poor example since we treat Soul Hax potency by the amount of souls being manipulated. Just as how mind hax is treated.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
I'm going to call you out on this, not how that works. Being able to see further ahead doesnt effect the potency of howgood it can see. If Epitaph, who sees a guranteed future couldn't then tough luck, Yhwach having good range on his doesn't mean he can now somehow see GER's actions.


Your issue seems to be that you misunderstand how Yhwach's precog works in comparison to that of Epitaph. Yhwach can view multiple futures at once and understand them clearly. To give you an example with the Almighty Yhwach can view the future as if they were grains of sand. Not only can Yhwach see the guaranteed future through the Almighty but he can also see any other possible futures all at once. Epitaph's precog pails in comparison to that of Yhwach's. To say Yhwach cant view GER's actions is like me saying Elrad from Warhammer cant view GER since Epitaph couldn't. Yhwach's precog is objectively better than that of Epitaph. And Yhwach also has feats of bypassing Resistance to precog after absorbing Mimihagi. In other words, Yhwach would still be able to perceive GER's actions, unless he has type 2 or 4 acusality then your argument is moot.


It's like saying someone who can soulfuck across the universe can soulfuck someone who no sold getting soul haxed by someone who can soulhax and manipulate souls on a very potent level, but only within a few meters. Same ability, different range.


This is a very poor example since we treat Soul Hax potency by the amount of souls being manipulated. Just as how mind hax is treated.
Click to expand...
"Precognition (Yhwach can see all possible futures)" he can see all POSSIBLE futures and pick whichever he wants.

"Precognition (Epitaph shows its user visions of up to ten seconds into the future when used. The future it sees is guaranteed to occur)" this future it has seen is so potent not even diavolo can avoid it.He only avoids it via time erasing which can also manipulate causality .This is as potent as you can get for a precog and it wasnt able to see rtz being activated.EVEN AFTER RTZ ACTIVATED, EPITATH STILL SHOWED A FUTURE OF DIAVOLO WINNING.Meaning GER and RTZ really doesnt care about fate and the reality that had been set.precognition just malfunction at the sight of return to 0


I dont see any feats of him bypassing pre cog res in his profile,make a CRT.I doubt it can be better than epitath in its potency.almighty surpasses epitath and in everything but potency.how can you surpass a precog that is unavoidable(which only ger can can deny it).its not that epitath cant see GER's actions,GER just doesnt activate rtz in diav's precog as if ger knows he's being watched
 
So ......... Yhwach sees the guaranteed future ....... along with nigh infinite others ..... but still is somehow lesser than Epitaph? Which you claim to be so great that Diavolo can't avoid it (aside from erasing the time it will occur in) which is special because ............?

Him bypassing precog is a result of him absorbing Mimi and being able to still see and affect himself in futures despite obtaining all of Mimi's powers which include being unseen by his base Almighty.

This potency you are arguing for is nothing more than basic precog from what I see. Can you show a scan of someone using fate manip or such to change the future seen by Epitaph? Because its just showing what is going to happen in 10 seconds as is.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
So ......... Yhwach sees the guaranteed future ....... along with nigh infinite others ..... but still is somehow lesser than Epitaph? Which you claim to be so great that Diavolo can't avoid it (aside from erasing the time it will occur in) which is special because ............?

Him bypassing precog is a result of him absorbing Mimi and being able to still see and affect himself in futures despite obtaining all of Mimi's powers which include being unseen by his base Almighty.

This potency you are arguing for is nothing more than basic precog from what I see. Can you show a scan of someone using fate manip or such to change the future seen by Epitaph? Because its just showing what is going to happen in 10 seconds as is.
Click to expand...
Im not arguing about how many futures it can read but the potency as in how true and undeniable the precog is.Epitath is absolute no amount of action or power can change it other than time erasure.Time erase is how diavolo always wins by erasing a segment of time that doesnt favor him.As seen so in doppio vs risotto,epitath is absolute without KC.not even rtz can change epitath thats how potent it is


Screenshot 20190929-072340 YouTube


I tried uploading a scan from the manga but it says permission error so i took a screenshot from the anime instead.As seen here not even rtz can change the epitath's precog.i've said before and i'll say it again,only time erasure can bypass epitath,this is basic jojo knowledge imo
 
AnonymousBlank said:
So ......... Yhwach sees the guaranteed future ....... along with nigh infinite others ..... but still is somehow lesser than Epitaph? Which you claim to be so great that Diavolo can't avoid it (aside from erasing the time it will occur in) which is special because ............?

Him bypassing precog is a result of him absorbing Mimi and being able to still see and affect himself in futures despite obtaining all of Mimi's powers which include being unseen by his base Almighty.

This potency you are arguing for is nothing more than basic precog from what I see. Can you show a scan of someone using fate manip or such to change the future seen by Epitaph? Because its just showing what is going to happen in 10 seconds as is.
Click to expand...
Basic precog is like most fate chars with mind's eye or instinct.it can go wrong.Epitath is absolute
 
"Epitath is absolute"

"Only time erasure can bypass Epitath"

Not really. That would be a NLF. There is a lot of characters out there who could change fate even with Epitath seeing the outcome
 
Epitath showed a reality that is guaranteed to occur therefore universal reality warper claps epitath and its precog.i was saying it in the context of jojo.Not even ger's causality manip can change epitath's precog,rtz more so just rejects epitath
 
The Prince of Counters said:
I suppose Katakuri has better precog than Yhwach now because he can see a few seconds into the immediate future.
Click to expand...
You're missing the point im not saying almighty is worse than epitath. Im saying the future that yhwach has chosen and epitath are both guaranteed to occur
 
The Prince of Counters said:
I suppose Katakuri has better precog than Yhwach now because he can see a few seconds into the immediate future.
Click to expand...
Correct me if i am wrong but precog is better than another based on how far and how many futures can it see? because if that is the case there is no point in fighting since Almighty >> epitath.

I am also having a hard time seeing how seeing 10 seconds into a future is better than seeing the garranteed one and night-infinite possible ones.

edit: also i dont see many resistances on the page of giorno nor do i see resistance to precog either.
 
A reality 'guaranteed' to occur is any precog. Rather it's a precog that "won't change" no matter what and is guaranteed. So uh.... Won't this be kinda like him being in GER again? The whole I see my deaths but I cannot stop it?
 
Ciruno Fortes said:
A reality 'guaranteed' to occur is any precog. Rather it's a precog that "won't change" no matter what and is guaranteed. So uh.... Won't this be kinda like him being in GER again? The whole I see my deaths but I cannot stop it?
Click to expand...
If Yhwach can see GER in his precog, he can null GER.
 
Correct me if i am wrong but precog is better than another based on how far and how many futures can it see? because if that is the case there is no point in fighting since Almighty >> epitath.

I am also having a hard time seeing how seeing 10 seconds into a future is better than seeing the garranteed one and night-infinite possible ones.

edit: also i dont see many resistances on the page of giorno nor do i see resistance to precog either.

My point was how undeniably true epitath is.(watch doppio vs risotto).If it precog's diavolo's death,he either KC quickly or he will also die.idk why its so hard to understand.Yes almighty being able to see all futures make it a better ability Im not denying that but that doesnt make its precog more "true" than epitath.Epitath can see all actions ger makes,but rtz just malfunctions epitath.HAD EPITATH'S VISION OF REALITY CHANGE WHEN GER USED RTZ I'D VOTE FOR YHWACH but it didnt (it kept telling diavolo he'd win).diavolo won that fight that was the truth and reality that had been set.GER just rejected said reality.
 
.....

So.

Basically, Epitaph shows a guaranteed future whatever you want.

But it got ****** over by something that can cancel abilities.

Yhwach's Future sight shows every possible thing and even in the future, and can cancel other abilities.

You just basically said Yhwach's ability ends Epitath because both his and Giorno's ability changes the future. And how basically it's not even close.. You can argue that it's similar but Yhwach's ability has some of those two powers combined and some more. And it screws over Giorno thankfully, the wank for him is too much

That attempted wank gone wrong. This can be closed if Yhwach stomps.
 
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