Giorno Giovanna vs Itachi Uchiha

[Firephoenixearl]

No that was only for the Death Loop, the death loop is a technique. Doesn't mean you scale it to all of RtZ's uses.

And giving type 1 immortality from that is not happening either.

 

[Chariot190]

Nice try, literally not the case, in any cano for that matter. The death loop is literally just GER setting someone's death to zero, nothing more, nothing less, it isn't a technique, it isnt anything special. In fact it's quite literally pointed out to just be him using his ability one someone's death, there isn't anything more to it beyond your headcanon. Is it a technique? No, never treated as such in anything. Go ahead and look, even his Stand Bio only says it's just him RTZ'ing a death opposed to some special technique. And no offense, but your word pales compared to the source material.

No one said that, except you that is, you can't cherry pick. It's one or the other, what would you prefer?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Itachi can see the King of Hell, who is invisible to those that are not being affected by it. I don't see why he can't see a stand.

 

[Chariot190]

Probably because Stands are invisible to even ghosts.

Is the king of hell invisible to ghosts and souls? If so you'd have a case and he could, if not, well likely not so.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Probably because Stands are invisible to even ghosts.

Is the king of hell invisible to ghosts and souls? If so you'd have a case and he could, if not, well likely not so.

I don't see how being invisible to ghosts means Itachi can't see a stand. He can see souls and things that characters like Naruto who have insane sensing abilities can't see.

 

[Chariot190]

Because ghosts can see other ghosts yet can't see a Stand? Ergo it takes more than just being able to see souls and ghosts to see a Stand?

Unless Itachi can sense souls, he can't sense a Stand, sensing life energy aint gonna cut it either, it's explicitly different than Stand Energy. Although GER does use life energy for some of his attacks so that could tip Itachi off that something else is there.

 

[Zel97]

Are we assuming itachi can just put a genjutsu on both giorno and ger? I aint seeing that happening anytime soon especially not with spd unequal

 

[Chariot190]

>spd unequal

Also that, hell even in base GE would blitz something like 20k times over.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Itachi can see an invisible entity that others can't see, him not being able to see a stand doesn't make sense.

 

[Planck69]

Itachi can see an invisible entity that others can't see, him not being able to see a stand doesn't make sense.

People in JoJo who can also see an invsible entity that others can't see, cannot see Stands.

 

[Planck69]

Itachi can see an invisible entity that others can't see, him not being able to see a stand doesn't make sense.

People in JoJo who can also see an invsible entity that others can't see, cannot see Stands.

 

[Chariot190]

Let me explain it in the simplest way possible.

Being able to see an invisible entity doesnt automatically mean you can see a Stand because not even other invisible entities can see a Stand.

This shouldnt be hard to grasp, if not even ghosts can see a Stand, even though they can see other spiritual things like purgatory and other ghosts (all of which are invisible normally), yet cant see a Stand, would kinda suggest that there's more to it than that.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I'd like some scans for that.

 

[Chariot190]

I'll grab em when I make the intagibilty/phasing blog, throw them into a Stand physiology blog I guess.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Nice try, literally not the case, in any cano for that matter. The death loop is literally just GER setting someone's death to zero, nothing more, nothing less, it isn't a technique, it isnt anything special. In fact it's quite literally pointed out to just be him using his ability one someone's death, there isn't anything more to it beyond your headcanon. Is it a technique? No, never treated as such in anything. Go ahead and look, even his Stand Bio only says it's just him RTZ'ing a death opposed to some special technique. And no offense, but your word pales compared to the source material.

Consider how it works no it's not. It completley BFR's someone, that's way off what average RtZ does. The unknown mechanics of Loop doesn't mean you scale it to RtZ.

Considering KC still pushed away his hand and even went for the attack (before being obviously physically overpowered again). And how he still acted in the death loops (which wouldn't have been the case had RtZ worked the same as the death loops and just become automatic after the 1st use).

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Maybe I wasn't being clear enough. Itachi can see and invisible being that other characters that can also see invisible things cannot see.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Lowkey Kenichi Shirahama can sense stands via sensing aura, fighting spirit, killing intent and life force

 

[Chariot190]

Whoever said the BFR was apart of the death loop? Other than you that is. You could assume it is, but that's only guesswork. Taking every piece of information we have, doesn't suggest it is. Even going as far as looking at outside material doesn't support your conjecture, in fact it outright contradicts you. Not even in noncanon are you right here.

It is outright stated that the death loop is quite literally, just GER's main power, but being used on a death. Are you saying it's wrong? Are you saying even though it's outright stated it'sjust GER's main ability that it actually is special in some ways? The unknown mechanics of the loop are RTZ, it's outright said it's RTZ. Also I like how you said that's way off your average RTZ even though it's quite literally half of RTZ's shown in canon. He only does it twice that we could see.

Also how Diavolo acted in the loop? GER RTZ'd his death, Diavolo could act however he pleased given GER never touched anything other than his death, and time skip and probably his punch.

>Considering KC still pushed away his hand and even went for the attack

Never actually happened. If you are talking about the scene where a nearly destroyed King Crimson tries to attack, he didn't push or even touch GE or Giorno, GER stopped attacking himself and King Crimson in that window trid to attack, but never even got as far as throwing the punch because he was punched in the throat.

Edit: I checked my saved scans, King Crimson doesn't even try and punchh, he just stands there yelling You!, then GER punches him in the face again after he finished talking to Diavolo.

Edit 2: I did do a quick look at the anime version on yt though, you're thinking of a anime only action, King Crimson never touches or swats away his hand in the manga. Which is a understandable mistake, the anime takes a few liberties here and there but what you think happened isnt canon.

 

[Zel97]

Maybe I wasn't being clear enough. Itachi can see and invisible being that other characters that can also see invisible things cannot see.

Itachi being able to see stands or not matters very little in this match,not only are you assuming he can put both gio and ger in a genjutsu at once but also ignoring the fact that spd is unequalised

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I didn't assume any of that.

 

[Zel97]

Then here is not a place to discuss that excessively since it doesnt impact the result of the match

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Then here is not a place to discuss that excessively

What? Im arguing in favor of Itachi being able to see a stand. I haven't said anything about him being ablw to genjutsu them both, nor about their speed.

 

[Zel97]

Bruh even if itachi can see stands he still cant permanently shut down ger. We can just make a different thread for that,no offense btw i didnt mean to sound like an Ahole

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It being the same power doesn't mean it retains all its effects during each special use. And bringing non canon doesn't really make it more believable.

And if the death loop includes BFR which isn't part of RtZ then that's just more proof that the death loop is more than just "lol RtZ nothing changes". You yourself admit unknown mechanics but try to push passive RtZ on actions scaling from an ability that includes RtZ and an unknown mechanics ability, yeah fair enough.

Diavolo did act in the death loop, he was continuously dying, however GER had also used his RtZ before the death loop, if he was able to act it just means the RtZ GER used previously on the fight, doesn't retain the same effect as the death loop.

I see, well still, KC did actually act (even did the flex thing) and was going for the punch, just got blitzed. Really not "permanently RtZ".

 

[Rocker1189]

My brain, what even is this fight.

 

[Chariot190]

Quite literally said to be the exact same power. GER RTZ's a death using his main ability, that's what it is, that's what it's said to be, that's quite literally it is whether you like it or not. Noncanon? i mean dude, you just used the anime as a counterpoint, the anime is only usable in extremely specific conditions, and contradicting the source is not one.

Again, if, keyword, if the BFR is apart of the death loop. You're basing your entire point here on a hypothetical well if this' is true even though we don't actually know if it is. The BFR could be a seperate ability and just comboed with it. Are you going to say that's wrong? Even though it's spelled out and written clear as day that the death loop is just RTZ being used to set a death to zero, that is all it is. You can't even make the claim that it's special because the only special thing about it we have no idea if it's directly linked to it.

Uh yeah, Diaviolo did act in the death loop (Except that time he didn't and couldn't move at all in his autopsy death, nor could he defend himself in any of the following deaths, his actions mostly amounted to yelling and being scared), why wouldn't he be able to? GER RTZ'd his time skip and his punch, guess what King Crimson never does again? His time skip and his punch. You'd only have a point if Duavolo used his time erase or threw a punch in the death loop, which, guess what he never did? Even though he should have, and would have used time erase if he could given he spams it as a personality trait, yet doesn't when he's dying over and over? Not really helping your point when the things that got RTZ'd never actually ocurred again.

King Crimson acted, ok? Wouldn't even say he was going for a punch unless you count the anime, wasn't exactly in a punching pose, we know how he throws punches, that wasn't it. Again, where's the contradiction? Ignoring that of the two times we know for a fact he used RTZ, half of it is the death loop, so using what's the norm or not is impossible unless you bring in noncanon or secondary canon.

Regardless. The Death Loop isn't even a canon term fyi, it's a fanmade term fr it because that's what it is but in canon? There's zero actual distincyion between GER setting a death to zero, GER setting time erase to zero or anything in between. If you think the death loop is automatic after the initial RTZ for it, then by all accounts, it goes for RTZ in general, because the death loop is apart of its general utility. You can't have manual uses for everything but not deaths specifically, it's one or the other. They're the same thing and treated as the same thing and any distinction that does exist is purely fanmade, you can't cherry pick this. Pick your choice for what you want, but picking is something you must do.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The anime which follows canon pretty consistently and a completely non canon series which isn't even written by the same author? Any more of a false equivalency?

Yeah but there is no mention of such an ability. And the death loop includes the BFR so it's not "just another ability that comboed into it". And besides if it were, it would have been mentioned somewhere there or in the stand description which is usually followed so religiously by everyone. And the same statement mentions that GER's power is to set things to zero. No BFR, so go figure.

In the autopsy he was in a hospital chair, what she may have done to him is unknown to us, she could have used nerve numbing serums and stuff. Considerng that is the only case where he could not act. And no, that "he only used it on time stop" is a flawed argument. Otherwise "GER only RtZ'd death by punches so that should have been repeated infinitely", which is very much not the case. GER RtZ's the notion, not the act itself. He RtZ's "death" , not "death by being punched, drowing or stabbed". Similarly he would have to have RtZ'd "acting" not "acting to punch" or "using Time Erase".

Considering in those pannels we run into a problem of "the details seem cut" i'd say the anime is the better use. We never see GER pulling back his fist from Diavolo's face so you cannot say "Diavolo didn't punch it away", i have more reason to believe he did so (according to the anime) than you have to say he didn't.

Absolutely not, it's a fanmade term, but it is a special technique considering it works nothing like the usual RtZ as it includes BFR, something as you yourself state, have no idea how it works. He has never used RtZ the same way he has used Death Loop.

 

[Chariot190]

Something tells me you think I'm talking about the novel. I'd suggest you stop assuming things, because you can often end up wrong when you do that . You do know there's an absolute fuckton of secondary and noncanon things right? Hell there's at least 8 different novels, one of which is actually canon, that being GioGio 2 coincidentally.

Yes, there is no mention of such an ability, yet it does specify that setting a death to zero is just RTZ being used normally. So if the BFR isn't mentioned to be apart of it yet we have specification that the death RTZ is, why are you assuming a direct correlation when it actually foregoes the mention of saying BFR is apart of RTZ? You said it yourself, it's not mentioned when talking about RTZ, yet the death thing is, but not only is it mentioned, it says it's just GER's normal RTZ ability, so why are you asuming it's different or BFR is absolutely connected with it? You're jumping to conclusions, based on your own hypothesis, which isn't actually confirmed anywhere other than what you think. You're assuming far more than me, not only that some of your assumptions kinda contradict what is outright said.

Not a hospital chair, probably a morgue. Also a chair in which he wasn't pinned down or restrained by anything. And using a sedative? On what she thinks is a corpse? Do you not actually know how a autopsy tends to go? Why the **** would ANYONE use sedatives on a dead body, and then ignore when the dead body is yelling at her like she doesn't hear him at all? Dude, actually think things through a bit before pulling such claims out your ass, she did nothing to him, absolutely nothing because all she was doing was performing an autopsy on what she thought was a corpse. Yes, it was the only case, that we see anyway, you also ignored the fact that he never manages to pull off time erase again? Wonder why that is ƒñö

First off, time erase, not time stop, you're kinda outing yourself as not knowing a damn on what you're talking about. And secondly, no, it's actually pointed out and heavily iplied he used it on the time erase specifically so again, reading comprehension. Thirdly, that's a flawed argument isnt the best choice of words when making a flawed argument dude, especially not one we know the answer to. GER didn't need to (or didnt) RTZ a specific death, why? Because we have confirmation he didn't RTZ the type of death but rather RTZ'd the act of Diavolo dying He didn't RTZ the death itself but rather the act of Diavolo actually ceasing to be alive. Hell it's why he needs a death to intiate a RTZ on death in the first place, he needs the opponent to hit the act of dying. How doesn't matter because that's not what he's aiming for.

You serious? Because I hope to god you're not, the manga takes precedence, if something happens in the anime but not the manga, we don't use it unless confirmed by Araki to be canon. Otherwise we'd have like Tier 7 Dio, Tier 7 Kars, etc. In the manga GER punches Diavolo, then he stops, proceeds to speak to Diavolo, Diavolo responds to him in anger in the respite GER is giving him, then immediatly gets his face caved in. Would you asume King Crimson swatted GER's hands away if the anime didn't exist? No, because that doesn't happen and what we see doesnt suggest it, there is no missing details, it's simply an anime only thing to make it look cooler. We know what parts of the anime Araki had involvement in, the end isn't one of them, that scene is unironically just as canon as Jorge Joestar GER. You're a hypocrite Earl, you have a issue with cherry picking, you need to cease doing that.

You saying absolutely not doesn't make you right, you know that right? It's a fanmade term. We have confirmation it isn't a special ability. We have confirmation that it's just his standard RTZ ability in action. The BFR isn't grouped with it, in fact it's excluded when describing it. Do I have any idea how it works? More than you apparently but unlike you I'm taking the information we're given and actually following it without havuing to resort to noncanon, headcanon or making multiple assumptions (Which kinda goes against occams razer but oh well), and if I did resort to noncanon, this debate would have been over already. And again, you do realize how stupid a claim is of he's never used RTZ the same way he's used the death loop. When 1. He has. RTZ'ing erased time and RTZ'ing Diavolo dying both resulted in both being put a bit prior to when either ocurred, neither ever happened again (Diavolo never hit the point of death again, always being reset the exact moment prior and time erase was never used again even though he would've if he could), 2. Literally, quite literally 50% of RTZ's used in canon we know for certain happen is what you're saying isn't the norm. Which goes back to you cherry picking, you're literally cherry picking half of what should and should not count, made even worse because neither actually contradict each other.

You are unironically saying that out of the two times we know for certain, one is normal and one isn't, which is made even worse when neither actually contradict each other.

Like it or not Earl, it's one or the other, it's outright said in text it's just the normal RTZ ability and unless you're illiterate or something, you don't really have an excuse as to why you're absolutely twisting it so much and making it out to be what you want it to be. Whether you agree or not, it says what it says, what it says superceedes you, what is shown superceedes the anime (especially noncanon scenes. Only anime scene you can actually use are those identical to the manga and don't have any added bits or the fugo flashback, because that's the only scene Araki actually supervised). Hell I can bring up things that Araki had more involvement the anime if you'd want? Example, Eyes of Heaven, Araki actually had involvement with that game, so if you don't mind buffing the shit out of Weather Report, every character and give Funny existence erasure, I'd stop using secondary canon.

 

[Chariot190]

Not that any of this ******* matters, because by the looks of things GER can trasnsmutate. And if he can't it's an inconclusive and nothing actually happens.

Who could have guessed.

 

[Planck69]

Did I seriously just see someone argue for anime being more canon than the source material on a site outside of Youtube comment sections? Wow Earl, if you grasped at straws any harder you'd be suffocating in hay.

>In the autopsy he was in a hospital chair, what she may have done to him is unknown to us, she could have used nerve numbing serums and stuff.

>Dead body

>Sedatives

Galaxybrain. jpeg

 

[Uniasha]

Did I seriously just see someone argue for anime being more canon than the source material on a site outside of Youtube comment sections? Wow Earl, if you grasped at straws any harder you'd be suffocating in hay.

for buddha's sake

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I could continue at this but so can Chariot so it's pointless. It'll just be a good day for humanity the day we stop giving GER stuff based on assumptions.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Did I seriously just see someone argue for anime being more canon than the source material on a site outside of Youtube comment sections? Wow Earl, if you grasped at straws any harder you'd be suffocating in hay.
>In the autopsy he was in a hospital chair, what she may have done to him is unknown to us, she could have used nerve numbing serums and stuff.

>Dead body

>Sedatives

Galaxybrain. jpeg

No, the manga never contradicts what was shown. The manga literally cuts that part out.

And again assumptions all around. Considering he could move in every other death i'd love your explanation for why he could not move.

 

[Chariot190]

>we stop giving GER stuff based on assumptions.

Uh, isn't that what youre doing. I'm taking what we see and say at face value while making zero assumptions. And mate, the only reaso why this is brought up is because of others in this thread. I've said multiple times now, that it could work one of many ways, and as such which one we use, we do not know. Issue comes in when people like you try and force your headcannon as the absolute 100% guranteed way that it absolutely works like that. Which before you try and backpedal, no, you very clearly were insinuating and claiming your view on it was factual.

Also GER has no abilities listed that are based on assumptions, if he did, he'd have a few types of immortality, resurrection, among other things if we assmed a few things we dont know for 100% fact. So, again, why are you acting like GER has like a fuckton of powers he's never shown. The only one is willpower manip, and that shit is outright said on paper and even confirmd in other canons which mind you, is on par with using the anime for added scenes (Pretty sure the direct translation is even more direct, kinda like how the direct translation for SP's part 6 Bio outright says Surpasses the speed of light through sheer raw speed opposed to just FTL). And even then, we dont even use that in matches so what is your issue exactly?

 

[Planck69]

No, the manga never contradicts what was shown. The manga literally cuts that part out.

And again assumptions all around. Considering he could move in every other death i'd love your explanation for why he could not move.

The original material cuts out......stuff from an adaptation several years later? Therefore the "cut-out" stuff actually has bearing here?


This ******* thread

 

[Chariot190]

>several years.

More like 20 years later.

 

[Zel97]

Using sedative on a dead body? Now im 100% sure i've had enough internet for today

 

[TypeOU]

Can't GER just reset everything until itachi eventually hit an animal that it transmuted?

 

[RicardoSama]

Can someone summarize this battle for me, tell me the win cons and Hax resists real quick

 

[Planck69]

Can someone summarize this battle for me, tell me the win cons and Hax resists real quick

Either incon or Itachi gets transmuted.