• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Genshin Impact General Discussion!

RatherClueless said:
They were literally losing before he even used the faul legacy transformation. He was literally playing with them and Paimon even points it out . . . twice. How is this even an argument?
Click to expand...
They got knocked back and rebounded back. Childe gets pissed and decides to transform. Implying he needed the Foul Legacy to even take back the geonsis and he still couldn't beat the MC in that time limit.

Where are you getting he trashed them? When everything in that fight itself says differently.
 
Yoyco said:
They got knocked back and rebounded back. Childe gets pissed and decides to transform. Implying he needed the Foul Legacy to even take back the geonsis and he still couldn't beat the MC in that time limit.

Where are you getting he trashed them? When everything in that fight itself says differently.
Click to expand...
First thing we see in that fight is Childe throwing you around. Second thing we see is Childe overpowering you and throwing you around. Third thing we see is Childe getting pissed and absolutely speedblitzing you and throwing you around and only "losing" because he went over his time limit.

In his story quest you need to defeat a bunch of Ruin Guards, but since you are too slow, he uses his foul legacy transformation to finish what took you and him 60 seconds together in just 10 seconds alone while heavily injured, while you just watched in awe, being all like "holy sh*t, he is so strong!"
 
RatherClueless said:
First thing we see in that fight is Childe throwing you around. Second thing we see is Childe overpowering you and throwing you around. Third thing we see is Childe getting pissed and absolutely speedblitzing you and throwing you around and only "losing" because he went over his time limit.

In his story quest you need to defeat a bunch of Ruin Guards, but since you are too slow, he uses his foul legacy transformation to finish what took you and him 60 seconds together in just 10 seconds alone while heavily injured, while you just watched in awe, being all like "holy sh*t, he is so strong!"
Click to expand...
You mean we see him knock us back one time, second time is because of the clashes explosion which ended in a tie, third he didn't blitz anyone since we dodged it and he didn't throw anyone after that. That was us rolling out of his attack. The fact that a pissed off transformed Childe couldn't beat the MC in that time limit say it all.

If he was trashing the MC, he wouldn't need to transform or would of lost.

It was already stated Childe had gotten stronger, but this doesn't change much. Since the dialogue options suggested the MC was still confident he can take on Childe.
 
Yoyco said:
You mean we see him knock us back one time, second time is because of the clashes explosion which ended in a tie, third he didn't blitz anyone since we dodged it and he didn't throw anyone after that. That was us rolling out of his attack. The fact that a pissed off transformed Childe couldn't beat the MC in that time limit say it all.

If he was trashing the MC, he wouldn't need to transform or would of lost.

It was already stated Childe had gotten stronger, but this doesn't change much. Since the dialogue options suggested the MC was still confident he can take on Childe.
Click to expand...
It didn't end in a tie. He very clearly overpowered you. The traveler holds against it with one hand, gets pushes back and uses the other hand, which is still not enough and then uses the geo attack in hopes of somehow stopping him before he steam rolls you, just to then be surprised that Childe casually dodged it and passed you without you noticing.

You start ducking before he even moves. I'd hardly count that dodging. Also, I was talking about just his pressure pushing you away, not the rolling bit.

Throughout the fight Childe even says "just give it to me, I don't want to take it by force", so I doz see that point at all

That was in terms of his bow skill, simce that's the weapon he is the least skilled with. If you really think that the Childe (while using the foul legacy transformation) that couldn't even move after 10s of using the Foul Legacy > Childe at the Golden House... not sure what to tell you.

What dialogue option? The one at the bank? Where Paimon had to stop you? The thing where the traveler reacted with sth along the lines of "yeah, that was pretty stupid of me". The traveler also wanted to challenge Seniora and not Childe there, but whateves. If it's not that, then idk what you are talking about.
 
RatherClueless said:
It didn't end in a tie. He very clearly overpowered you. The traveler holds against it with one hand, gets pushes back and uses the other hand, which is still not enough and then uses the geo attack in hopes of somehow stopping him before he steam rolls you, just to then be surprised that Childe casually dodged it and passed you without you noticing.

You start ducking before he even moves. I'd hardly count that dodging. Also, I was talking about just his pressure pushing you away, not the rolling bit.

Throughout the fight Childe even says "just give it to me, I don't want to take it by force", so I doz see that point at all

That was in terms of his bow skill, simce that's the weapon he is the least skilled with. If you really think that the Childe (while using the foul legacy transformation) that couldn't even move after 10s of using the Foul Legacy > Childe at the Golden House... not sure what to tell you.

What dialogue option? The one at the bank? Where Paimon had to stop you? The thing where the traveler reacted with sth along the lines of "yeah, that was pretty stupid of me". The traveler also wanted to challenge Seniora and not Childe there, but whateves. If it's not that, then idk what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
Steam rolls? Childe failed to overpower the MC in that moment and only got by them because the explosion blocked their view. Still failed to blitz. Okay so the pressure slightly moved the MC. How is that throwing them around?

His actions say differently and this just shows he was underestimating the MC. Again how does this any of this show that Childe trashed the MC?

No Childe never mentioned the bow iirc. Childe just said he got stronger in general and there's even an option of dialogue supporting this while you talk to Childe while his brother plays hide & seek. The option about fighting him later is also while Childe is hiding from his brother.

It's pretty clear that Childe and the MC are close in power. Whether Current Traveler or Childe is stronger is up to debate idrc, but Childe trashing the MC is clearly false.
 
@RatherClueless If Childe without the FLT was already strong enough to overpower the Traveler like you're saying, then with the FLT, there's absolutely no reason why he couldn't beat the Traveler within his time limit.

Let's take a look at his dialogue:

Taking this into account, if we follow your assumption that he was toying with the Traveler during his 1st and 2nd phases, then being bloodlusted while using his strongest form should've annihilated the Traveler in seconds. But he didn't. If anything, he already got serious during his 2nd phase when he unleashed his Delusion. His 3rd phase has him going berserk against the Traveler and not thinking things through. They're at the very least equals, if not the Traveler being slightly stronger.
 
Are the comics allowed to be used here ? Because I don't know if this was mentioned or not in game but seems Visions can use the shields on their own.

Amber summoned a shield on her own against that beast guy during chaps 14-15.
 
They can. We even see Childe using an electro shield as a guard during his boss fight. It's one of those things it seems like any Vision-user can do, like turning into their respective elements (see all Catalyst-users, most Electro users, Childe turning into water, etc.). Also, Abyss Mages.
 
Yoyco said:
Steam rolls? Childe failed to overpower the MC in that moment and only got by them because the explosion blocked their view. Still failed to blitz. Okay so the pressure slightly moved the MC. How is that throwing them around?

His actions say differently and this just shows he was underestimating the MC. Again how does this any of this show that Childe trashed the MC?

No Childe never mentioned the bow iirc. Childe just said he got stronger in general and there's even an option of dialogue supporting this while you talk to Childe while his brother plays hide & seek. The option about fighting him later is also while Childe is hiding from his brother.

It's pretty clear that Childe and the MC are close in power. Whether Current Traveler or Childe is stronger is up to debate idrc, but Childe trashing the MC is clearly false.
Click to expand...
wdym failed? he was pushing back the mc, how is that failing? The explosion blew the taveler away, but not Childe, even though he was the one getting hit by a surprise attack? Weird.

He was underestimating the MC because he got wrong info from Seniora, who fought a traveler who only resonated with anemo. Paimon even tells the traveler to not seriously challenge a harbinger unltil you have resonated with all elements and got all your powers back, since you are not likely to win otherwise. The traveler agrees.

I know he never mentioned the bow. It was his hydro vision form tho. Saying his Foul Legacy form got stronger when he couldn't even keep it for 10s makes no sense. Also, an unknown multiplier just gets thrown out. So unless you can prove he got way stronger, this is pretty much a null point. I didn't pick that dialogue option, so idk.

Solacis said:
If Childe without the FLT was already strong enough to overpower the Traveler like you're saying, then with the FLT, there's absolutely no reason why he couldn't beat the Traveler within his time limit.

Let's take a look at his dialogue:

Taking this into account, if we follow your assumption that he was toying with the Traveler during his 1st and 2nd phases, then being bloodlusted while using his strongest form should've annihilated the Traveler in seconds. But he didn't. If anything, he already got serious during his 2nd phase when he unleashed his Delusion. His 3rd phase has him going berserk against the Traveler and not thinking things through. They're at the very least equals, if not the Traveler being slightly stronger.
Click to expand...

Am I missing something? He doesn't say "Guess I should take you seriously". The first thing he says there is about Seniora, which makes sense, since she only saw you resonated with Anemo, while in the fight with Childe you also have Geo. Also, him saying he is going all out is kinda, you know . . . not true.

I highly doubt the weekly boss is canon like that, unlike Andrius for example.

He didn't think it through, yes. And? Every other line says how angry he is, how hard he is fighting and how serious he is? Wha? Literally every other line is him being hella confused how you got the gnosis before him. Not one is about fighting.

It's not just me assuming it. We literally see Childe pushing you back on screen. Am I the only one seeing how he just pushed through the travelers attack with one arm? Also Paimon even said that he was just playing them during the fight, getting them into a position where can go and snatch the gnosis. There is also the fact It is shown visually and stated multiple times. Also, Childe wasn't bloodlusted or berserk. Not sure where you got that idea from. It also might just be seconds that the foul legacy transformation lasts. We only know that it is longer than 10s, that's pretty much it. Well, you are never truly serious when you don't go all out. That aside, he didn't truly need his foul legacy. He starts the fight with saying that the traveler could never defeat him. We then get to the first cutscene, where Childe throws you across the room and says "guess you got some skill, but this is as far as you get". The traveler is kneeling on the floor, clearly injured, while Childe is casually walking towrds them. Childe then charges at the traveler, only using one arm. The traveler gets up, defending. Childe pushes through, causing the traveler to make a clearly shocked face. The traveler then tries to take Childe by suprise as a last attempt before he manages to push through. The traveler gets flung back by his own move, while Childe casually avoids it and even states he got surprised there. At no point during this entire fight did the traveler have the advantage.
 
You are. It's not subtitled, but he says it literally right before his line about Signora. I even gave you a convenient timestamp. Also, you can't just say that him saying he'll go all-out is untrue without any backing.

What you think is irrelevant to what's fact.

Do you not hear how angry he is? He literally says that the Traveler 'tricking' him is going to cost (the Traveler). You're also flat-out ignoring him literally saying "I'll go all out" and "I should take you seriously".

Pushing back? You realize that there are countless instances in fiction where a vastly superior character gets pushed back by a clash. What you're seeing is blatantly false. Childe isn't "pushing through the Traveler's attack with one arm". The Traveler is holding back Childe's attack with one arm. Childe attacked first.

And while we do see Childe overpower the Traveler, the gap in strength isn't nearly as wide as you make it seem to be. The fact that Childe's attack was held back at all should be enough to scale their AP with each other. We can argue that Childe is more skilled, since he's famous for being a master in several weapons, but we cannot say that Childe has that much more raw power than the Traveler. Besides, when the Traveler backsteps to use a surprise Geo attack, while they do get blown back. This obviously did no damage to them, since they land perfectly on their feet and without being any worse for wear.

Paimon didn't say Childe was playing with them. Paimon said that Childe had played them, as in, tricked them.

As for the Weekly Boss, remember that canonically, the repeatable boss fight is the Traveler's memories of the event, so we can easily assume that it's canon, one way or another. All we're getting is more context to the fight. Dialogue there can't be dismissed so easily.

Finally, I also explained exactly why I believe Childe was bloodlusted. He's raising his voice and lashing out. He gets pissed and violently slams the ground when he comes to the conclusion that you tricked him. He's shouting about how you'll pay for tricking him ("Not bad. But this is going to cost you!!"). He's frantically trying to rationalize how you managed to trick him, all while attacking you. He literally breaks through the floor for no reason after transforming. These are not the actions of a calm or playful person like you're implying he's being.

The biggest nail in the coffin? He KNOWS that the Foul Legacy Transformation has severe drawbacks on his body. He knows yet he still used it. It can be argued that he's either forced to do so in the hopes of defeating the Traveler faster, or that he's just so angry that he doesn't care. Either way, Childe is going all-out, and the Traveler is fighting him. Whether they outright beat him or outlast his transformation doesn't matter. They're fighting a full-power Childe.

Ultimately, what matters isn't whether or not the Traveler is as skilled as Childe. What matters is whether the Traveler can keep up with Childe. The Traveler can dodge attacks from a bloodlusted Childe in his strongest form. That's speed. The Traveler can hold back a finishing blow from a serious Childe for a decent amount of time. The strike was already held back. The only difference between them past the initial impact would be lifting strength. The impact itself was Childe's AP. The fact that the Traveler can face it head-on with their own attack means that their AP is roughly equal.

This isn't even taking into account that Childe, by his own admission, was unquestionably forced to use his Delusion. The Traveler was strong enough to beat Vision-only Childe. That's a fact. Remember also that Childe still uses his Hydro abilities in his later phases. That means that said Hydro abilities backscale from them if he expects said abilities to work at all. His Hydro arrows don't start moving faster or hitting harder just because he's using another element, after all.

To sum up, Childe was definitely serious by the time he activated his Delusion. You can't just dismiss his dialogue as if you're a more reliable source than the guy himself, and by extension, the writers. Childe was undoubtedly more skilled than the Traveler, but you're overlooking what's important about the confrontation that actually determines scaling: the stats.
  • The Traveler can dodge a serious, even bloodlusted, Childe. That's Speed.
  • The Traveler can counter the force of a serious Childe's attack with their own. That's AP.
  • The fact that the Traveler is injured yet not defeated means that they can tank a serious Childe's attacks. That's Durability.

I'm not arguing that Childe wasn't superior to the Traveler; even though based on the weekly boss there's more than enough basis for it.

I'm arguing that Childe and the Traveler are roughly equal in stats. Skill is an entirely different factor; being relevant only because we have to keep in mind that skill-stomps are a thing and that "losing" does not mean "inferior in strength and speed". The Traveler absolutely scales to Childe.
 
I see. Would that event give resistance to Sleep Manip to MC and/or Fischl, or for everyone with a Vision in general?
 
Oh boy, that's quite the wall of text there.

You are. It's not subtitled, but he says it literally right before his line about Signora. I even gave you a convenient timestamp. Also, you can't just say that him saying he'll go all-out is untrue without any backing.

Well, I wasn't able to listen to it when I wrote that reply. It is untrue because him being serious would mean 1: Him actually trying to kill the traveler, which he isn't and 2: Him using his FLT, which he isn't.

What you think is irrelevant to what's fact.

Due to a later point kind of irrelevant for now.

Do you not hear how angry he is? He literally says that the Traveler 'tricking' him is going to cost (the Traveler). You're also flat-out ignoring him literally saying "I'll go all out" and "I should take you seriously".

Yes, he is pissed, so what?

Pushing back? You realize that there are countless instances in fiction where a vastly superior character gets pushed back by a clash. What you're seeing is blatantly false. Childe isn't "pushing through the Traveler's attack with one arm". The Traveler is holding back Childe's attack with one arm. Childe attacked first.

To the first bit, that's called an inconsistancy. We are currently trying to prove how they scale, so that really doesn't matter. To the second bit. . . that literally doesn't make a difference, since what the traveler uses to block Childe is one of their attacks, which you can even use in game and guess what, they fail to block Childe. We see Childe penetrating that attack.

And while we do see Childe overpower the Traveler, the gap in strength isn't nearly as wide as you make it seem to be. The fact that Childe's attack was held back at all should be enough to scale their AP with each other. We can argue that Childe is more skilled, since he's famous for being a master in several weapons, but we cannot say that Childe has that much more raw power than the Traveler. Besides, when the Traveler backsteps to use a surprise Geo attack, while they do get blown back. This obviously did no damage to them, since they land perfectly on their feet and without being any worse for wear.

Any gap in strength between them at the second Phase would mean an even bigger one when using the FLT. I honestly don't mind scaling Delusion Childe to the traveler. What I have an issue with is FLT. Wdym we can argue that? That wasn't even part of the debate and it honestly shouldn't be. Childe is definetly more skilled than the traveler. The fact that they get blown back at all from an attack they knew was comming, while Childe didn't, speaks volumes in of itself.

Paimon didn't say Childe was playing with them. Paimon said that Childe had played them, as in, tricked them.

You may want to re-read what I said there.

As for the Weekly Boss, remember that canonically, the repeatable boss fight is the Traveler's memories of the event, so we can easily assume that it's canon, one way or another. All we're getting is more context to the fight. Dialogue there can't be dismissed so easily.

This literally assumes the travelers memories are impeccable and more accurate than the actual event, which we saw from beginning to end. . . um, what?

Finally, I also explained exactly why I believe Childe was bloodlusted. He's raising his voice and lashing out. He gets pissed and violently slams the ground when he comes to the conclusion that you tricked him. He's shouting about how you'll pay for tricking him ("Not bad. But this is going to cost you!!"). He's frantically trying to rationalize how you managed to trick him, all while attacking you. He literally breaks through the floor for no reason after transforming. These are not the actions of a calm or playful person like you're implying he's being.

Being pissed is not being bloodlusted. Him offering the traveler the option to give him the gnosis completely goes against that from the beginning. I never said he is calm. I said he is really pissed and thus used the FLT even before you did.

The biggest nail in the coffin? He KNOWS that the Foul Legacy Transformation has severe drawbacks on his body. He knows yet he still used it. It can be argued that he's either forced to do so in the hopes of defeating the Traveler faster, or that he's just so angry that he doesn't care. Either way, Childe is going all-out, and the Traveler is fighting him. Whether they outright beat him or outlast his transformation doesn't matter. They're fighting a full-power Childe.

Well, when you ask him in his story quest whether it was worth using the FLT, he tells you that he never passes on a chance to test his limits, so it's somewhat in his personality. That aside, yeah, he was pretty pissed. Also, simply surving an unknown amount of time against an angry Childe who was still hesitant about severly injuring the traveler doesn't mean they should scale.

Ultimately, what matters isn't whether or not the Traveler is as skilled as Childe. What matters is whether the Traveler can keep up with Childe. The Traveler can dodge attacks from a bloodlusted Childe in his strongest form. That's speed. The Traveler can hold back a finishing blow from a serious Childe for a decent amount of time. The strike was already held back. The only difference between them past the initial impact would be lifting strength. The impact itself was Childe's AP. The fact that the Traveler can face it head-on with their own attack means that their AP is roughly equal.

I never said skill matters tho? We never see the traveler dodge any attacks that weren't super predictable, like that first one, where the traveler was already out of harms way before Childe even moved. Also, dodging doesn't mean you scale, you know that right? That's not how math or scaling works. Even then . . . ok? The issue I have with speed is mostly the assumption of Childe being lightning speed (which we know from his story quest he isn't), more so than the traveler scaling at all. I am not 100% sure what you are even trying to say in that last bit, but if it's simply "Delusion Childe is somewhat equal to the traveler", then sure.

This isn't even taking into account that Childe, by his own admission, was unquestionably forced to use his Delusion. The Traveler was strong enough to beat Vision-only Childe. That's a fact. Remember also that Childe still uses his Hydro abilities in his later phases. That means that said Hydro abilities backscale from them if he expects said abilities to work at all. His Hydro arrows don't start moving faster or hitting harder just because he's using another element, after all.

He wasn't forced to use his delusion tho. He simply said that the traveler is good enough for him to use it. I don't remember him using hydro abilities in his second phase. His third phase hydro moves don't even compare to his first phase, so not sure what that argument about backscaling is doing here. After all, last I checked his first phase doesn't drop a massive whale on you. That aside, even the attacks he keeps deal more damage and are more massive. Even his weapons got upgraded when he entered FLT. It's part of the animation for crying out loud. With that you are also effectively just saying FLT isn't even a decent multiplier, even though we know it is bare minimum a 6-12x multipler, just based on his story quest.

To sum up, Childe was definitely serious by the time he activated his Delusion. You can't just dismiss his dialogue as if you're a more reliable source than the guy himself, and by extension, the writers. Childe was undoubtedly more skilled than the Traveler, but you're overlooking what's important about the confrontation that actually determines scaling: the stats.

I still don't see why he should be serious before FLT to be honest. He even said that his entire point of being a Harbinger is to test his strength, so obviously he'd use it on someone who can withstand it. Doesn't mean he was serious. I am not overlooking the stats tho. We know FLT is a massive upgrade and we know that Delusion Childe is stronger than the traveler, even if not by much. These are just hard facts we get shoved right into our faces.

The Traveler can dodge a serious, even bloodlusted, Childe. That's Speed.

We never see that. Not necessarily my biggest gripe anyways.

The Traveler can counter the force of a serious Childe's attack with their own. That's AP.

Barely managed to hold of a non FLT Childe who was using just one arm, but sure.

The fact that the Traveler is injured yet not defeated means that they can tank a serious Childe's attacks. That's Durability.

We know Childe wasn't even trying to seriously harm the traveler, but even if, yet again, this is non FLT Childe.

I'm not arguing that Childe wasn't superior to the Traveler; even though based on the weekly boss there's more than enough basis for it.

You literally argued for Traveler >= FLT Childe in your previous comment.

I'm arguing that Childe and the Traveler are roughly equal in stats. Skill is an entirely different factor; being relevant only because we have to keep in mind that skill-stomps are a thing and that "losing" does not mean "inferior in strength and speed". The Traveler absolutely scales to Childe.

Delusion Childe? Sure. FLT? Definetly not. Saying it does is like saying FLT is a useless transformation. Skill was never even a debate.
 
MrKerf said:
I see. Would that event give resistance to Sleep Manip to MC and/or Fischl, or for everyone with a Vision in general?
Click to expand...
Maybe? I'd have to look at it again, to see how exactly they picked it up, since they were told not to touch it with their bare hands and they did say they won't.
 
That reminds me. Regardless of how the stats end up being, can we add the ability to search for Lumine or Aether and still get to the profile?
 
Can we like get a tally on who agrees with what tiering? We should probably get an agreement on that soon.
RatherClueless said:
That reminds me. Regardless of how the stats end up being, can we add the ability to search for Lumine or Aether and still get to the profile?
Click to expand...
Sounds good, once we work out the tiering we can add that to Traveler’s page.
I still call dibs on Fichl though, I will do that either Saturday or Saturday two.
 
Tiering aside, how do we handle character scaling? Are we gonna scale all playable characters to each other or?
 
I think we make a few tiers.

One is for Lisa/Razor and the average unit.
The other is for The higher tiers like the team who fought Dvalin.
Then we have useful gods and such.
I believe the mountain feats and know the storm feats would apply to the lower ones too though, so the second would just upscale.
 
00potato said:
Can we like get a tally on who agrees with what tiering? We should probably get an agreement on that soon.

Sounds good, once we work out the tiering we can add that to Traveler’s page.
I still call dibs on Fichl though, I will do that either Saturday or Saturday two.
Click to expand...
Well, if you want sth like that, you'll probably have to make it yourself

Edit: Although I guess I can go and collect all arguments and counter arguments ever made in this thread in one big pile, if that helps (I'd do that tomorrow tho. Way too tired rn)

I don't mind if you do Fischl, but wdym by Saturday or Saturday two?
 
Last edited:
00potato said:
Whatever Jeanne and early Traveller would be.
Click to expand...
Delusion Diluc scales to Kaeya and anyone around that level. Vision Diluc . . . Probably somewhere close to Jean? Scaling characters in game is a bit iffy, since they don't really fight each other and just because they fought the same enemy, doesn't mean they scale.
 
Usually that would make them scale unless we have reason to assume they were dead-weight or anything.
Diluc is a lone wolf who tends to do many jobs that would take groups of normal guards to do, also didn’t he one-shot an abyss mage? (Though the elements might have had something to do with that.)

I think Jeanne-Early Traveller level seems good.
 
00potato said:
Usually that would make them scale unless we have reason to assume they were dead-weight or anything.
Diluc is a lone wolf who tends to do many jobs that would take groups of normal guards to do, also didn’t he one-shot an abyss mage? (Though the elements might have had something to do with that.)

I think Jeanne-Early Traveller level seems good.
Click to expand...
The traveler fought off Hilichurls with Amber. Neither one was dead weight.

The traveler fought against Dvalin with Jean and probably wasn't dead weight.

So Amber scales to traveler who scales to Jean. Only issue is, is that we know Jean >>>> Amber.

Considering that we know that even a sickly Jean who just passed out earlier can keep up with the traveler, I think it is fair to assume that our acting grand master is stronger than a teenager who pretty much lost all their powers.

When it comes to actual scaling, it'd probably be along the lines of:

Jean >=Diluc (With Delusion and likely with Vision) >= Kaeya >=(<) Traveler > Amber
 
So, I am currently working on collecting all the arguments and counterarguments made. I have finished all the AP ones (I think). Next I'll do scaling and Speed and post it later this evening.
 
Argument List



Note: Green is the argument and red is the counterargument. This list should include all of them unless it was some more or less irrelevant tangent that didn't go anywhere or a less relevant argument was clearly conceded. Scaling is as short as it is, since most points are currently debated and I am still waiting on an answer on many of the points. This is also about arguments, so any possible scaling chain that never got contested is also not on here

Attack Potency
  • Dvalin created a city wide storm
  • Scans that it doesn't scale to anyone
  • Dvalin created a tornado that can lift large chunks of rock
  • The entire area is full with elemental energy that might cause this tornado, since Dvalin doesn't really have a reason to create one. Something I've recently noticed when trying to figure out how large those rocks are is that they sometimes even slowly float across the center, implying that they aren't actually kept in the sky by the tornado and it also has no effect on the close by characters, which is a bit weird, making it hard to determine the actual strength of the tornado.
  • Lisa's Storm
  • 1. Animation choice.
    2. Why would she bother to create a storm just to summon lightning, if all her attacks hit with that much damage anyways?
    3. Lightning does not scale to the storm it comes from
    4. A lot of characters have very different moves in game play than they have in the manga or cutscenes. The most prominent example would be Kaeya
    5. If taken at face value, it would likely be summoning anyways. Going by the animation, it is clearly not using KE and that is also doesn't look like the clouds are condensing right there. Neither of them would explain why the clouds just disappear after she is done casting.
  • The designer must have put in a lot of thought
  • Even then it'd only be ED
  • Klee blows up a Mountain
  • We see the Abyss Mage using that bomb in a cutscene. It's not that big of an explosion. It is also said that she "left a trail of destruction", implying multiple bombs were used, not just one. On top of that, there is no way this random dude got close enough to properly see her without getting nuked by a mountain busting explosion.
  • Jean and Amber work together to defeat an opponent who in the end ends up being defeated by a pyro-slime barrel
  • The existence of lower level feats does not invalidate higher level ones and we don't know it's durability.
  • We do know the durability, since the explosion is something we can calc.
  • Keqing trying to destroy her Vision by using minecarts or dropping it from great heights.
  • 1. That is assuming the authors thought about the scaling.
    2. It shouldn't be possible for her to break her Vision with the power of her Vision
  • This is about their physical strength and not their Vision power. Why would she uses such methods if she was physically stronger.
  • Zhongli Stone Forest.
  • The actual size of the stone lances isn't very clear, since the game isn't very accurate with sizes. We do know that things like the winery or Barbatos' statue are more or less the size they are in the manga, while the city of Mondstadt is a lot smaller in the game than it should be. Same goes for the distance between Liyue harbor and the city of Mondstadt, which should be far greater than the 4km it is in the game.
  • We do know the lances were specifically thrown to seal/pin down Osial, which we do see later, so we could assume that the size of the lances is correctly depicted when compared to it.
  • Childe destroying the floor in FLT
  • Childe throwing around Ruin Guards in FLT
  • Collei, who fought on equal terms with Kaeya, was afraid of falling to her death when gliding with Amber.

  • Hypostasis Hurricane
  • 1. The item description is vague and not definitive
    2. It is specifically stated that we don't know anything about Hypostasis, because people are too scared to get close to them, so why would something about its drops be known?
    3. Even if it was true, we'd still need evidence that it scales to its attacks.
    4. If it truly attacked with such force, the dropped item would be out of power
  • Barbatos flattening the cliffs and valleys
  • 1. It is unconfirmed.
    2. We don't know over what duration or to what degree this happened
  • Beidou can split mountains and part the sea
  • To quote the game: "People love to tell epic tales of her earth-shattering (or rather, sea-splitting) feats; tales in which her abilities are exaggerated to almost superhuman levels." and "In their view, if this world really were home to a giant sea monster from the ocean abyss... Beidou would certainly be capable of cutting it in half." Long story short, she is very capable and trusted, but the stories are still not true.
  • Andrius' Blizzards
  • This would only scale to other gods. The Spirit Locket also says the blizzards hit sub-zero, making this not usable for AP, since it can't be calced.
  • Genesis Crystals having the potential to create stars and scale to Primo Gems, which scale to Resin, which scale to the characters
  • 1. There is no reason Genesis Crystals scale to Primo Gems. There is no reason to assume Primo Gems scale to Resin. There is no reason to assume Resin scales to characters.
    2. Even if it was true, it'd be a massive outlier.
  • Waster Greatsword breaking mountains apart
  • 1. It is not clear on whether it can actually do that.
    2. It has a requirement bound to it, so we don't know if any of the characters could even wield it like that.
    3. It is not clear whether the sword is simply durable enough to do so or if it grants such power
    4. It is not clear how massive the mountain is supposed to be, in how many pieces it breaks or over what duration of time it can do so (It doesn't say it's in one hit)

Speed
  • Hilichurls put up their shields whenever you attack them, including Lisa's attack. Shiroyasha apparently tested it and they blocked it.
  • 1. Well, I also tested it and the only thing I found is that attacking them during the beginning of one of their attack sequences interrupts their attack and immediately resets the model to its default pose. You can't really call that reacting.
    2. Even if one was to argue "but they still block it regardless", that is true, but also doesn't matter, since they even block it while being frozen solid and unable to move. They also block AoE attacks that should hit their backs, like Barbaras' charge attack.
    3. Even if we still wanted to scale it, we couldn't, since there isn't a single character in the game that can bypass that shield with speed.
    TL;DR, this is the game devs trying to force you to use a pyro character to get rid of the shield, rather than an actual feat. It'd be kind of broken if fast characters could bypass certain things, while slower ones can't after all and a pain to balance.
  • Characters moving as lightning, like Keqing, Childe, Lisa and Razor
  • 1. That isn't even close to enough evidence. Not all lightning is natural Lightning
    2. Thanks to Teucer we actually know that if we take non cutscene animations seriously, they all happen as fast as we see them happening.
  • Amber should be able dodge Electo Vision users and Andrius and thus be lightning speed
  • There is no evidence that she can dodge natural lightning. There is no evidence Andrius is that fast. Andrius also wasn't even serious during that fight.

Scaling Chain
  • Traveler/Jean/Diluc/Venti scales to Dvalin via being able to hurt him.
  • It took all four of them to destroy a blood clot on his back. They were not trying to severly hurt or kill him. Dvalin doesn't even have a HP bar, so how would be know he was damaged. Breaking through a shield does not count. Enemies like Abyss Mages and Fatui Skrimishers collapse too and don't take any or barely any damage.
  • The Traveler should scale to FLT Childe, since they lasted through the fight
  • Delusion Childe is already slightly stronger than the Traveler. If we still scaled FLT to them, it would assume it is a useless transformation
 
@RatherClueless

I must've worded something wrong in my reply, since I never intended to argue for the Traveler scaling entirely to FLT Childe. At most I can see it as a stamina feat for them lasting against a vastly stronger opponent until the transformation wore off. What I mean to argue is that the Traveler should scale to Delusion Childe, since that's far more consistent, so I'm sorry if I was unclear.

  • Traveler can hold back Delusion Childe's spear attack. Even if Childe's spear was slowly pushing through, the fact that the Traveler's counterattack was putting up a notable resistance at all is easily enough to scale. Additionally, as I said, the difference between them post-initial impact is lifting strength, not striking strength. The Traveler stopped the initial strike by Childe, that's a fact. Whether or not Childe pushed through afterwards (which he did, but slowly) is irrelevant to striking strength.
  • Durability and Speed I've already talked about.

As for whether Childe uses his biggass whale in his first phase, yes he does.

On another note, there are a couple other things I've discovered recently. Most notably being that Fatui Cicin Mages use cloud-to-ground lightning. Given that Lisa and presumably Razor would easily scale above them, we can safely assume that their own electricity travels at least at comparable speeds.
 
Solacis said:
@RatherClueless

I must've worded something wrong in my reply, since I never intended to argue for the Traveler scaling entirely to FLT Childe. At most I can see it as a stamina feat for them lasting against a vastly stronger opponent until the transformation wore off. What I mean to argue is that the Traveler should scale to Delusion Childe, since that's far more consistent, so I'm sorry if I was unclear.

  • Traveler can hold back Delusion Childe's spear attack. Even if Childe's spear was slowly pushing through, the fact that the Traveler's counterattack was putting up a notable resistance at all is easily enough to scale. Additionally, as I said, the difference between them post-initial impact is lifting strength, not striking strength. The Traveler stopped the initial strike by Childe, that's a fact. Whether or not Childe pushed through afterwards (which he did, but slowly) is irrelevant to striking strength.
  • Durability and Speed I've already talked about.

As for whether Childe uses his biggass whale in his first phase, yes he does.

On another note, there are a couple other things I've discovered recently. Most notably being that Fatui Cicin Mages use cloud-to-ground lightning. Given that Lisa and presumably Razor would easily scale above them, we can safely assume that their own electricity travels at least at comparable speeds.
Click to expand...
And here I was confused to how someone could possibly say Traveler > FLT Childe.

That is actually not a LS feat. Just because Childe is pushing doesn't mean it doesn't qualify for AP. That's like saying that someone winning in a beam clash isnt AP. Before someone now says "false equivalency", because someone was physically pushing, rather than with energy, let me tell them... so what? For as long as it can qualify as AP, it's fair game and pushing indeed can. An example of that would be a character placing their hand onto a rock and then shattering it by simply pushing into it.

Well, speed still doesn't really scale like that unless we see them running next to one another. Durability, sure.

Guess I just always finished thaz round before he could use it, since it definitely isn't WL related. He still has different attacks in his final form non the less, like the massive arial arrow rain.

Try looking up to see where that comes from. You'd be surprised.
I'll give you a little hint. Right above your head. That aside, if it really was natural lightning, it'd travele the exact same speed, not just comparably.
 
Sorry, couldn’t write up a small essay for this, more focused on other life stuff.
If I got time and motivation, (prolly this weekend.)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Berento_Magnifico
Question about Genshin Impact's New Tier
Replies
8
Views
1K
Giannysmag
Giannysmag
Furina003
Discussion About the Speed of Raiden Shogun And Speed Of Element Elektro (Genshin Impact)
Replies
34
Views
1K
Furina003
Furina003
Furina003
  • Locked
MHS+ Speed Raiden Shogun and Element Electro (Genshin Impact)
2
Replies
46
Views
3K
DarkDragonMedeus
DarkDragonMedeus
Valxxroyz
Teyvat Size
Replies
15
Views
3K
Dog3352
Dog3352
Furina003
  • Locked
UPGRADE ATTACK POTENCY 4A (GENSHIN IMPACT)
4 5 6
Replies
239
Views
11K
Puppet43
Puppet43
Back
Top