Genshin 4A downgrade...

[Woomica]

well rip go and tag staff on other 3 crt you bum

 

[Shey]

Agree with OP and Gianny, their points encompass most of my issues with the 4-A rating aside from the fact the scaling was also rushed terribly done

 

[GarrixianXD]

I admit that I haven't played Genshin for an entire month and haven't been active on the game at the same rate I used to be. I'm rather evaluating my stance on the evidence given by the OP himself. I am open to downgrading Genshin off 4-A if the OP can clarify the context or preferably provide even direct statements that the world in question that is accessed through the book is actually inside the book itself, and the book is not simply a pathway to the Starry Sky World from the Imaginarium Threatre. My stance on the Starry Sky world in question being fictional or imaginary still hasn't changed, as well as my arguments on the UES. I noticed that a lot of content from this CRT doesn't rlly have any direct relevance to the Starry Sky world that is being used for the scaling of 4-A for the Genshin characters. If Simulanka, and the World Within the Painting, are different worlds then I have no idea why it is brought up in this CRT since the world that is used for scaling is that Starry Sky World accessed through the book, any other world is irrelevant to the 4-A scaling.

 

[Giannysmag]

I admit that I haven't played Genshin for an entire month and haven't been active on the game at the same rate I used to be

Honestly same lol, I basically haven't touched the game since finishing the AQ

 

[Dog3352]

I admit that I haven't played Genshin for an entire month and haven't been active on the game at the same rate I used to be. I'm rather evaluating my stance on the evidence given by the OP himself. I am open to downgrading Genshin off 4-A if the OP can clarify the context or preferably provide even direct statements that the world in question that is accessed through the book is actually inside the book itself, and the book is not simply a pathway to the Starry Sky World from the Imaginarium Threatre. My stance on the Starry Sky world in question being fictional or imaginary still hasn't changed, as well as my arguments on the UES. I noticed that a lot of content from this CRT doesn't rlly have any direct relevance to the Starry Sky world that is being used for the scaling of 4-A for the Genshin characters. If Simulanka, and the World Within the Painting, are different worlds then I have no idea why it is brought up in this CRT since the world that is used for scaling is that Starry Sky World accessed through the book, any other world is irrelevant to the 4-A scaling.

Evidence that the Simulnaka is inside a book:

Alice: When Durin of Simulanka made his wish to the Goddess of Fate, it just so happened that in a world far away, all of you wonderful people were holding a copy of M's fairytale at that exact moment.

Alice: And because of your noble and kind souls, you were selected by the Goddess of Fate to come and save this world.

Traveler entering Simulnaka right after interacting with M's book (this also happened to the others).

I've already talked about the UES arguments, and I won't say it again, there's nothing that says Alice's creation magic uses elemental energy.

The 2 worlds are relevant as they are both clearly the same type of creation, such as: The fact that the 2 were created using witches' creation magic, the statement of "existing between reality and fantasy" which can easily connect both due to to their very equal existential statuses (also the case of the declaration of "real fantasy"), the fact that both existed only within books, both were nothing more than mere fiction/common fantasy before a reality was created specifically within the book, the declaration of Woofy (They use their powers of creation to transform her "fantasy truth" into "true fantasy.") which makes it clear that the magic used to create IT is the same that all witches have (creation magic, also used to create the Simulnaka), and I still think there is more.

 

[Berento_Magnifico]

Btw Mavuika destroyed a moon, so maybe moon level Genshin is fair since you can see the destroyed moon even after the Archon quest (off-topic i know) and skirk and narwhal should remain 5-A because of black hoke

 

[Dog3352]

Btw Mavuika destroyed a moon, so maybe moon level Genshin is fair since you can see the destroyed moon even after the Archon quest (off-topic i know) and skirk and narwhal should remain 5-A because of black hoke

As far as I remember, black hole was not accepted.

Mavuika's feat does not scale with anyone, Mavuika used her own power + the power of the six reincarnations of the heroes who fought alongside her in the cataclysm + the power of RONOVA (Ronova is one of the 4 shadows, stronger than even the 7 dragons primordial at their peak), it is at least very difficult to prove that someone scales to a feat of what is one of the 3 strongest archons today + the power of 6 heroes who fought alongside her in the cataclysm + one of the most powerful beings in Genshin ( just staying below the primordial itself).

We don't know if she really destroyed it or if it was already destroyed behind the false sky.

 

[DivinumAeterna]

Btw Mavuika destroyed a moon, so maybe moon level Genshin is fair since you can see the destroyed moon even after the Archon quest (off-topic i know) and skirk and narwhal should remain 5-A because of black hoke

Mavuika did not destroy a moon, Mavuika destroyed a portion of the fake sky revealing the already destroyed moon that was hidden behind it...

 

[Furina003]

world in the book or world in the painting, it would still be called a pocket dimension, lol

 

[InfinityTurtleHD]

Agree with the downgrade, since it's too inconsistent with a ton of the power outputs that the Archons have shown so far (island slicing and stone spears).

Also, I don't understand why someone like Cyno is even 4-A when all he did was clash his blade with the Traveller once, and that was without elemental energy. In fact, in order to beat/match godly beings, Traveller needed outside assistance in order to get the job done such as the 100 Visions and Nahida. Arlecchino, a harbinger with a lower rank than the Top 3, was able to overpower him since he lacked any form of tool or boost.

Honestly I expected the false sky in 5.1 to debunk the idea of Star-Level and above attacks...

 

[GarrixianXD]

Evidence that the Simulnaka is inside a book:

Traveler entering Simulnaka right after interacting with M's book (this also happened to the others).

I've already talked about the UES arguments, and I won't say it again, there's nothing that says Alice's creation magic uses elemental energy.

The 2 worlds are relevant as they are both clearly the same type of creation, such as: The fact that the 2 were created using witches' creation magic, the statement of "existing between reality and fantasy" which can easily connect both due to to their very equal existential statuses (also the case of the declaration of "real fantasy"), the fact that both existed only within books, both were nothing more than mere fiction/common fantasy before a reality was created specifically within the book, the declaration of Woofy (They use their powers of creation to transform her "fantasy truth" into "true fantasy.") which makes it clear that the magic used to create IT is the same that all witches have (creation magic, also used to create the Simulnaka), and I still think there is more.

I'm not even talking about Simulanka. Simulanka isn't used for the 4-A scaling and actually holds no premise over it. Do you have any citations inferring that the World with Starry Skies across through the Imaginarium Theatre lobby is minimised to the point it can fit and is literally inside the book? And yeah, magic was used to create the realms directly based on the theme of the plot.

 

[Weaver261]

Imaginarium Theatre is minimised to the point it can fit and is literally inside the book?

These worlds inside Imaginarium Theater are just fictional worlds. It's only real to those who believe just like the value of same value economy. It has plenty of scans stating it's fiction.
On the other hand, 4-A upgrade using Imaginarium Theater has no feats or concrete statements of these worlds being real except for that vague statement about "true fantasy". I don't think we don't need to provide more as we haven't shown everything that's need to be seen.
Imaginarium Theater's worlds were never stated as spatial, pocket dimension, or even existing parallel or outside of Teyvat outright. It's just fiction. I don't think we don't need prove these worlds' sizes

 

[GarrixianXD]

These worlds inside Imaginarium Theater are just fictional worlds. It's only real to those who believe just like the value of same value economy. It has plenty of scans stating it's fiction.

Imaginarium Theater's worlds were never stated as spatial, pocket dimension, or even existing parallel or outside of Teyvat outright. It's just fiction. I don't think we don't need prove these worlds' sizes

Says to be a world between reality and fiction otherwise.

On the other hand, 4-A upgrade using Imaginarium Theater has no feats or concrete statements of these worlds being real except for that vague statement about "true fantasy". I don't think we don't need to provide more as we haven't shown everything that's need to be seen.

It said "true fantasy" and "real fantasy"; it wouldn't be too vague considering the world is based on the theme of the plot. The fantasy itself would just mean the theme of the world.

 

[Weaver261]

Says to be a world between reality and fiction otherwise.
It said "true fantasy" and "real fantasy"; it wouldn't be too vague considering the world is based on the theme of the plot. The fantasy itself would just mean the theme of the world.

Huh not again - _ -
A world between reality and fiction is the description for the lobby, not for Imaginarium Theater. And how does "True Fantasy" works here. That alone won't enough to give 4-A tier jump. 4-A thread was closed rushly and have no concrete evidence to back it up. "True Fantasy" doesn't imply anything about these worlds being real. But it has multiple statements about being real to only a few who believe in it. It's inside a book and everything that happened inside the book has been written into text. The lobby is stated to a space between fantasy and reality. Fantasy is clearly referring to Stage Performance of Imaginarium Theater and Reality is also clearly referring to Teyvat. Give me more statement about Imaginarium Theater worlds being real aside for "True Fantasy" or that's the only evidence you've there?

 

[GarrixianXD]

Huh not again - _ -
A world between reality and fiction is the description for the lobby, not for Imaginarium Theater.

Imaginarium Theater

Imaginarium Theater is a permanent combat gameplay and special domain challenge in the Theater Lobby (previously known as the Mysterious Room) of Mondstadt Library, Mondstadt. Wolfy is the concierge of the library and was created by a mage. To unlock Imaginarium Theater, the player must reach...

genshin-impact.fandom.com

Turns out you're right that there's another statement I saw and used was specifically refers to the room. I have no idea why it was brought up then.

And how does "True Fantasy" works here. That alone won't enough to give 4-A tier jump. 4-A thread was closed rushly and have no concrete evidence to back it up. "True Fantasy" doesn't imply anything about these worlds being real. But it has multiple statements about being real to only a few who believe in it. It's inside a book and everything that happened inside the book has been written into text. The lobby is stated to a space between fantasy and reality. Fantasy is clearly referring to Stage Performance of Imaginarium Theater and Reality is also clearly referring to Teyvat. Give me more statement about Imaginarium Theater worlds being real aside for "True Fantasy" or that's the only evidence you've there?

You seem to be pulling out the burden of proof fallacy here; there hasn't even been appealing evidence to prove that the world is fictional and there are already scans shown that go against that. Over 8 pages of argument, I have yet to even see a single piece of concrete evidence that properly elucidates the realm being inside the book. And text written into the book itself according to the incidents occurring in the Imaginarium Threatre is rather weak evidence by itself; also, Wolfy said there will be new blank pages added and he looks forward to those filled with stories. Nothing in those lines even remotely insinuates what happens in the realm is written in that book; only said that blank pages will be added and Wolfy looks forward with stories to be written in those pages.

 

[Weaver261]

also, Wolfy said there will be new blank pages added and he looks forward to those filled with stories. Nothing in those lines even remotely insinuates what happens in the realm is written in that book; only said that blank pages will be added and Wolfy looks forward with stories to be written in those pages.

Playing Imaginarium Theater and what happened inside are repeatedly stated as Performance.

About that book and the battle we just fought...
Wolfy: Yes, I saw! You were magnificent! I was completely enraptured by your performance.
Paimon: ...What do you mean "performance"?
Wolfy: Well, Madame Mage says that every page of a storybook is a segment of the "present."
Wolfy: I'm sure only the most distinguished of guests are able to take the stage as the story's protagonists, and put on a show as spectacular as yours!
Wolfy: What a thrilling battle... Yes, that's what every story needs to spice things up! Naturally, those are the kinds of stories I love reading the most.
Wolfy: I wonder what would make a good title for a book about your magnificent performance? Should we call it a saga? An epic? A tale of conquest? A chronicle of combat? Ah, choices, choices.
Wolfy: In any case, I do hope you will be so kind as to indulge us with more of your fine performances. ...In fact, scratch that — I'm afraid I shall have to insist! The story of the "present" is waiting to be written, and you, dear guests, are the ones to fill its pages!

This is the ceaseless drama of adventure played out in the interstice between reality and fantasy.
Complete the challenges (that is, performances) within to obtain rare treasures.

 

[Furina003]

These worlds inside Imaginarium Theater are just fictional worlds. It's only real to those who believe just like the value of same value economy. It has plenty of scans stating it's fiction.
On the other hand, 4-A upgrade using Imaginarium Theater has no feats or concrete statements of these worlds being real except for that vague statement about "true fantasy". I don't think we don't need to provide more as we haven't shown everything that's need to be seen.
Imaginarium Theater's worlds were never stated as spatial, pocket dimension, or even existing parallel or outside of Teyvat outright. It's just fiction. I don't think we don't need prove these worlds' sizes

it is never stated that the world is fictional. it was mentioned as a real fantasy. because it comes from a fantasy story book that has been made real.

Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside or appear as less than universe sized objects when observed from the outside.

The world that is in a different dimension from Teyvat can already be said to be a pocket dimension, ust like simulanka, the world created by narzissenkreuz and realm adeptus. those are all pocket dimensions.

Wolfy:Hello, dear guests! Please, come here!
Wolfy: I have some good news to share with you. This took much longer than it should have... But in any case — at long last, the new stage is now ready for action!
Wolfy: Put on a spectacular show for your audience, and you will receive a key that opens the door to the World Within the Painting...
Paimon: Whoa, hold up! First storybooks, now a world inside a painting? This place is making less and less sense all the time...
Wolfy: I know what you mean! But as I read in a storybook once, if a magician reveals all their tricks to the audience, it robs them of the surprise.
Wolfy: So, it's quite right that things don't make sense. Madame Mage's magic is just like love — not something to try and make sense of, but something you just feel.
Paimon: Fair enough, that explanation sorta works... But anyway, about this new World Within the Painting stage — is it any different from the other stage?
Wolfy: The World Within the Painting is a world of many rules... This new stage will put friendship and trust to the test — a classic tale!

obviously they call it the world, which means it is the world in story books or paintings

 

[Weaver261]

The world that is in a different dimension from Teyvat

Show the scan where Imaginarium Theater is stated as a different dimension from Teyvat.

 

[Weaver261]

it is never stated that the world is fictional. it was mentioned as a real fantasy. because it comes from a fantasy story book that has been made real.

The world that is in a different dimension from Teyvat can already be said to be a pocket dimension, ust like simulanka, the world created by narzissenkreuz and realm adeptus. those are all pocket dimensions.

obviously they call it the world, which means it is the world in story books or paintings

You've to show these worlds aren't fictional world because it's important to clarify that considering they are inside the book. If you can't prove it, it will be automatically assumed as fiction since it's inside the book or the painting

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

 

[Furina003]

Show the scan where Imaginarium Theater is stated as a different dimension from Teyvat.

bro, these dimensions are in books and paintings, and it is mentioned as the world. obviously it's a separate dimension from the teyvat world. this is very easy to understand. try showing me that it's not pocket dimensions?

You've to show these worlds aren't fictional world because it's important to clarify that considering they are inside the book. If you can't prove it, it will be automatically assumed as fiction since it's inside the book or the painting

the world is in the book and it is equated with the real world. Obviously that's a real, physical pocket dimension. not just imagination or awareness.

Wolfy: To me, all these events are indistinguishable from real experiences. Take my latest dream for instance. I remember being in a garden of forking paths, and Madame Mage said to me...
Wolfy: "From now on, you are a concierge. Be sure to treat your guests well!"
Wolfy: Then I found myself here. And like I said, I waited, and waited, and waited... and now, finally, two guests have arrived! At last, I can fulfill my duty.

Wolfy even said it was a real experience. he gave an example of what happened to him that the witch mother said was his a concierge and it really happened.
and I have given this to you many times, "a certain witch use the magic build this place, granting a different sort of life, to thing that were once mere fantastical stories" From here alone it is clear that long ago this space was just a fantasy story. and the wizard uses his magic to make it a different life. that's why wolfy calls it "real fantasy" because it's a "fantasy story turned into reality by a wizard"
we're not talking about "qualitative superiority", we are talking about pocket dimensions.

 

[Weaver261]

bro, these dimensions are in books and paintings, and it is mentioned as the world. obviously it's a separate dimension from the teyvat world. this is very easy to understand. try showing me that it's not pocket dimensions?

the world is in the book and it is equated with the real world. Obviously that's a real, physical pocket dimension. not just imagination or awareness.

Wolfy even said it was a real experience. he gave an example of what happened to him that the witch mother said was his a concierge and it really happened.
and I have given this to you many times, "a certain witch use the magic build this place, granting a different sort of life, to thing that were once mere fantastical stories" From here alone it is clear that long ago this space was just a fantasy story. and the wizard uses his magic to make it a different life. that's why wolfy calls it "real fantasy" because it's a "fantasy story turned into reality by a wizard"
we're not talking about "qualitative superiority", we are talking about pocket dimensions.

Just because your experience feels real doesn't mean it's real. The statement of granting life doesn't really imply the stages inside the Imaginarium Theatre is real spatial dimension. World is also not Dimension. World is a vague word that can be used anywhere for any meaning. World can mean both real world and fictional world. More over, these worlds inside Imaginarium Theatre only become real when you believe in it just like how you believe the value of Toy Medal which is the magic of imagination and it's just make believe. You believe your experince to be real but in reality that's not the case. Wolfy often talked about how he can't decide what's reality and what's dream.

I must apologize... I must have slept for so long that I can't remember what's real and what was a dream anymore. I did have a lot of dreams while I was asleep...
Wolfy: Okay, concentrate... Alright, so — if I'm not mistaken... the current me is a "concierge," in charge of attending to any guests that find themselves here. Ah yes, and you may call me "Wolfy."
Paimon: Okay. But, um, if all you can remember are your dreams, what makes you think any of them are real experiences? They're just products of your imagination, right?
Wolfy: You mean... If it comes from my imagination, it... can't be real life? Well, it sounds like you know more about that kind of thing than I do. I can't tell the difference at all...

You need provide the scan where it stated Imaginarium Theatre worlds are in fact spatial dimensions and not just fictional world that can be experience as reality when you believe in it.

 

[Furina003]

Just because your experience feels real doesn't mean it's real. The statement of granting life doesn't really imply the stages inside the Imaginarium Theatre is real spatial dimension. World is also not Dimension. World is a vague word that can be used anywhere for any meaning. World can mean both real world and fictional world. More over, these worlds inside Imaginarium Theatre only become real when you believe in it just like how you believe the value of Toy Medal which is the magic of imagination and it's just make believe. You believe your experince to be real but in reality that's not the case. Wolfy often talked about how he can't decide what's reality and what's dream.

You need provide the scan where it stated Imaginarium Theatre worlds are in fact spatial dimensions and not just fictional world that can be experience as reality when you believe in it.

Real experiences are definitely real, not dreams or imagination. he even gave an example of what happened to him, Imaginarium Theater is a real space, I have explained it and given you the proof. If that's what used to be a fantasy story, it has been turned into reality. I have given it and explained it to you.

it has been explained clearly that it is a world that exists in books and paintings. You still deny it, and you don't provide stronger evidence that it's not pocket dimensions. which makes your rebuttal useless and cannot be trusted

 

[Weaver261]

I will let mods and administrators decide that. Many have agreed that 4-A upgrade was done rushly and have poor evidences that are vague. You also ignored the magic of imagination part and all of player's performance inside it being written into stories. But it's fine. There's no concrete statement of Imaginarium Theater's stages being spatial pocket dimensions. I've provided enough informations for admins to evaluate. I won't stretch the thread longer by arguing pointless debates.

 

[Furina003]

I will let mods and administrators decide that. Many have agreed that 4-A upgrade was done rushly and have poor evidences that are vague. You also ignored the magic of imagination part and all of player's performance inside it being written into stories. But it's fine. There's no concrete statement of Imaginarium Theater's stages being spatial pocket dimensions. I've provided enough informations for admins to evaluate. I won't stretch the thread longer by arguing pointless debates.

Yes, it would be best to send this decision back to the staff for evaluation, and I hope this decision also takes into account the OP objections.
The Imaginarium Theater already serves as a pocket dimension, because it is a separate world from the world of Teyvat and indeed looks small when seen from the outside, only in the form of books and paintings because this world is inside books and paintings.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Playing Imaginarium Theater and what happened inside are repeatedly stated as Performance.

Sounds like Wolfy is writing the story in the book based on the battle itself. But not the book magically embedding stories into it by itself, nothing seems to remotely imply that.

 

[Weaver261]

Sounds like Wolfy is writing the story in the book based on the battle itself. But not the book magically embedding stories into it by itself, nothing seems to remotely imply that.

Wolfy: In any case, I do hope you will be so kind as to indulge us with more of your fine performances. ...In fact, scratch that — I'm afraid I shall have to insist! The story of the "present" is waiting to be written, and you, dear guests, are the ones to fill its pages!

 

[Dog3352]

Wolfy even said it was a real experience. he gave an example of what happened to him that the witch mother said was his a concierge and it really happened.

Woofy was talking about his own dreams because he was sleeping moments ago and says that his dreams are like real experiences for him.

 

[Giannysmag]

Bump

 

[GarrixianXD]

Simulanka doesn't even have any considerable relevance toward the overall downgrade context anymore, but I'll show a few scans I was provided off-site anyways:

Nilou's outfit is directly originated from Simulanka, the same is with Kirara's outfit. Both can wear it in Teyvat, which is the real word.

Another thing to add is that Venti uses elemental power to cast magic. Not the vice versa.

 

[DivinumAeterna]

Both can wear it in Teyvat, which is the real word.

Welp, I can't personally argue against the outfits. I missed the optional post-event dialogues, so fair enough. Though that only proves that the stuff in Simulanka is physically tangible and can exist in the real world, but as you said it's Imaginarium Theatre being used for the upgrade justification primarily...

 

[Voidnether]

Out of topic, but would it be fine if we rely on visualization here without actual narratives of them being described as planets, stars or even galaxies in Imaginarium Theater? If that's the case, 4-A should be upgraded to 3-B as one of the CGM accepted this calc:

Genshin Impact : Imaginarium Theater (Literally Gremmy)

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Woomica]

Out of topic, but would it be fine if we rely on visualization here without actual narratives of them being described as planets, stars or even galaxies in Imaginarium Theater? If that's the case, 4-A should be upgraded to 3-B as one of the CGM accepted this calc:

Genshin Impact : Imaginarium Theater (Literally Gremmy)

vsbattles.fandom.com

you sure are confident that this wont be accepted are you? Anyway i feel like mods evaluation are more than needed here

 

[Voidnether]

you sure are confident that this wont be accepted are you? Anyway i feel like mods evaluation are more than needed here

I mean, why wouldn't it be accepted if we accepted 4-A previously due to the realm containing a starry sky in it with just visualization only?

 

[GarrixianXD]

Out of topic, but would it be fine if we rely on visualization here without actual narratives of them being described as planets, stars or even galaxies in Imaginarium Theater? If that's the case, 4-A should be upgraded to 3-B as one of the CGM accepted this calc:

Genshin Impact : Imaginarium Theater (Literally Gremmy)

vsbattles.fandom.com

No. Just because a calculation is accepted doesn't mean it can be applied, it has to undergo a CRT first. And I personally disagree with using that calculation.

 

[Dog3352]

Nilou's outfit is directly originated from Simulanka, the same is with Kirara's outfit. Both can wear it in Teyvat, which is the real word.

Some things from that world can go to real life (like the inhabitants), besides, the inhabitants really exist, being that they are roles, but with the life given by Alice's magic (and Alice literally gave life to a paper frog in real life), my point is that the reality/world itself is not real, not the clothes, they already appear in the world with the clothes, we don't know if the clothes are created with the same creation magic used to create Simulnaka.
I don't even honestly care if the Simulnaka and the IT/book are treated as normal pocket realities, since what matters to scale the creation feat is the UES.

Another thing to add is that Venti uses elemental power to cast magic. Not the vice versa.

Same thing I've already said and shown evidence of previously, the term "magic" also works for the use/manipulation of elemental energy, but not all things that have the term "magic" use elemental energy.
As is directly stated (it's in the OP), the world was created using words, which there is no evidence of using Elemental Energy or any type of energy that scales to anything other than the creation of the world.

 

[Giannysmag]

Bump, please let this thread be done already

 

[DivinumAeterna]

Bump, please let this thread be done already

Not until Genshin scalers are done enjoying their 4-A badge on every character profile (nevermind that it means nothing off-site because nobody buys it)

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Woomica]

Not until Genshin scalers are done enjoying their 4-A badge on every character profile (nevermind that it means nothing off-site because nobody buys it)

bro felt smart with this one

 

[GarrixianXD]

I agree with the OP.

If you're coming back to this, mind if I summarise the counterarguments towards the OP? A lot of the content doesn't exactly have much relevance to the source of the scaling of Tier 4, nor was it properly explained in the initial upgrade thread either.