- 88
- 84
Interesting, on a separate note, what are your thoughts on the metaphysical aspects of the story of superman?
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
- Start date
-
- Tags
- dc comics
- 4,168
- 4,950
"Zero evidence" is a bit strong here. While Superboy-Prime did indeed put pressure on the Darkest Knight, there's no way to definitively say he was fighting him at full capacity. Therefore, while I can't guarantee 100% that the Darkest Knight was holding back, you can't say he used his full strength against him and just loses fairly. This feat matters and should definitely be taken into account, but we should be more cautious, as both versions could be true.
- 88
- 84
Maybe I worded it harshly, and I apologize if I came off that way, but my main problem with this line of thought is that it assumes both interpretations are equally valid which isn't fully the case. The side that argues for prime has both statements and an onscreen fight when they were slugging each other out, while the side that is critical on it is mainly running on theoreticals and possibilities. I get your worries on being cautious ofc, but it seems overly wary on something that has a lot of backing to it.
- 4,168
- 4,950
No problem at all.
I simply think we shouldn't favour one version over another here, because the narrative of this particular story explicitly implies that the Darkest Knight was playing a psychological game throughout the fight and didn't suddenly changed his tactics into manipulative games because he was losing a physical fight against Superboy-Prime. However, the Darkest Knight recognized Superboy-Prime as a significant threat to him and his words: "Well, well, Prime. Seems there's a little MORE to you than I thought, isn't there?" proves that Superboy-Prime clearly has the raw power to hurt him. The Darkest Knight's words on: "You can't destroy me anymore than I can destroy you... so let me help you." are actually directly in line with his previous statement: "I prefer not to expend the energy to kill you." This implies that he was using Prime's emotional vulnerability and desire to manipulate him. While Prime absolutely forced a stalemate where TDK acknowledged he couldn't easily destroy him, TDK never says he had to change tactics because he was losing.
- 152
- 147
Him throwing out a "I don't wanna waste my energy on you" at the START of the fight holds no weight for the "holds back" side of the argument.
When by the end of it, he was on his knees saying that they couldn't destroy each other and then screamed out "nooo" after his failure of talking to prime.
Why is their such a refusal to just grant him this fully? He was like one of 3 three people to actually go toe to toe with TDK, the others being perpetua and anti crisis wonder woman.
It's fine to let prime be strong, most of the powerscaling scene agrees that he is lol.
- 376
- 384
I already provided the complete and total break down of both sides of the argument in the notes section on my revised profile. Tbh I am not sure why this is still being discussed given that every scenario has been explored in great detail in this note. I presume that nobody bothered to read the notes section. (Go to the Notes/Explanations section not the regular notes section)
- 4,168
- 4,950
Yet on the next pages, TDK was standing perfectly fine. This isn't a denial; I said this feat should be taken into account, but claiming that Superboy-Prime defeated TDK fairly isn't necessarily supported by the comic itself. It's clear that TDK used psychological tactics and tried to manipulate Prime throughout the whole fight. That's why I said that, even if this feat were to be added, we should remain cautious.
- 4,168
- 4,950
Yes, I saw it and I agree with most of the points. I simply say that I don't think that TDK needed to change his tactics because he loses, as he relied primarily on psychological manipulation during the entire fight. However, Prime clearly has the raw power to hurt him; this is perfectly confirmed by the comic.
- 376
- 384
Fair. As stated in the conclusion of my note they are definitely comparable, but it can’t be stated with certainty which is above the other, or if there is even that much of a difference between them that such a gap is noticeable:
- “In the end due to the circumstances around the fight, what is portrayed, and the nature of each character, it is clear that The Darkest Knight and Superboy Prime are comparable in some way but it cannot be definitively stated with 100% accuracy if Superboy Prime is superior to The Darkest Knight, if The Darkest Knight is superior to Superboy Prime, or Superboy Prime and The Darkest Knight are equal, just that they are operating at the same range of power. Overall it is clear that neither character is in a transcendent position over the other no matter how one interprets it.”
- 4,168
- 4,950
Fair enough with one detail; i would replace "comparable" with "Prime has the power to hurt TDK," but this isn't that important. In fact, it doesn't matter that much.
- 376
- 384
For those Who are too lazy to click the link and find the notes section, this is pretty much all there is to say about the fight between TDK and SBP at the moment (I might add more when I eventually go back to revising the profile but I am kind of bored of SBP at the moment):
- “Superboy Prime fought the Crisis Energy and Doctor Manhattan Energy enhanced Darkest Knight in an enraged state (he was just enraged here not unstable), where he was able to exert significant pressure and gain the upper hand in close-quarters combat putting The Darkest Knight in a subservient position where he had to resort to bargaining. Superboy Prime was going to kill The Darkest Knight and take his powers until distracted by Krypto and convinced to take an alternate path. However, it is uncertain whether The Darkest Knight was fighting at full lethal intent or maximum capacity during this battle. The Darkest Knight stated that neither of them can kill the other so both of them should at the very least be considered equals with the possibility that Superboy Prime is in fact more powerful based on the outcome of their fight. It could be that The Darkest Knight was not as committed in this fight as he was with Perpetua. It is also possible that The Darkest Knight was being manipulative here; however, it is not clear what is objective would be in this situation. After being beaten down, once Superboy Prime hesitates, he sees an opening and goes for manipulation by telling Superboy that he will give him what he wants and that he can be a part of the greater vision seemingly attempting to recruit him. As to why The Darkest Knight would want to recruit Superboy Prime, this is not clear. It could be that he wants to use him as a weapon recognizing his power and potential, or maybe he wants him to set up the Crisis Energy channeling system using Crisis Worlds again. The Batman Who Laughs is a character that is known for using psychological manipulation when necessary so it is not out of the question that he was simply being tricky. The assertion that neither can destroy the other should be viewed as a potentially manipulative dialogue rather than a definitive limitation of either character's abilities. On the other hand, The Darkest Knight is also a liar so his statement "You can’t destroy me any more than I can destroy you" might not be true. The Batman Who Laughs / The Darkest Knight has a history of hyperbolic and incorrect statements in relation to his power levels and of course out of self preservation it would be in his best interest to say that Superboy Prime cannot kill him, though as explained earlier he could have had alternate unexplored motivations here. Ultimately, even though The Darkest Knight is incredibly manipulative, he even states that he doesn't want to expend any energy to kill him so even at the absolute lowest possible interpretation, Superboy Prime is still High-1A when enraged since The Darkest Knight would have to expend his precious High-1A Crisis Energy to kill him, otherwise it would take no effort at all to kill him and would have just done so on the spot if Crisis Energy was not required as well as having no real reason to keep him alive. None of any of this is definitively certain as what is shown in the comic may just be literal, that Superboy Prime, when enraged, is flat out superior to The Darkest Knight given the beatdown that the former gave the later and the fact that he was intending to kill him and take his powers for himself. It is worth noting that Superboy Prime literally turned his back to The Darkest Knight giving him ample time and a clear opportunity to attack; however he did not take this chance instead resorting to bargaining. This could suggest that he understood that attacking Superboy Prime would not end in a positive outcome for him resulting in another beatdown, and this time Superboy Prime would not hesitate to kill him. Superboy Prime is not a very intelligent person, when making decisions, due to his emotional immaturity. The Darkest Knight, due to his knowledge of Crisis events gained as The Batman Who Laughs as well as his newly gained cosmic awareness, would be aware of this fact and may have determined that manipulating Superboy Prime to go away is the best course of action in the moment. In the end due to the circumstances around the fight, what is portrayed, and the nature of each character, it is clear that The Darkest Knight and Superboy Prime are comparable in some way but it cannot be definitively stated with 100% accuracy if Superboy Prime is superior to The Darkest Knight, if The Darkest Knight is superior to Superboy Prime, or Superboy Prime and The Darkest Knight are equal, just that they are operating at the same range of power. Overall it is clear that neither character is in a transcendent position over the other no matter how one interprets it. As such do not try to make a revision to upgrade either Superboy Prime or The Darkest Knight with the intention of making one character superior to the other as there simply is simply not enough information to solidify either position.”
- 376
- 384
Unrelated, but I found a 4A Supernova feat. When I have the time I will post the calculation for it.
- 1,173
- 525
Nothing to lose
I'm bullet proof
Fly away fly away!
I'm bullet proof
Fly away fly away!
- 342
- 106
I don't think his first key being 2A is a good idea for obv reasons if you wanna put Hal jordan at 1C on your other revised profile
Cuz sbp or superman>>>any other league member
- 376
- 384
I haven’t updated his page since May so it is a little out of date.
- 40
- 15
Actually this does the opposite , it seems to Actually scale the God of superheroes more than it does superman.I'm curious, has anyone done a CRT on Milk Wars? It's an intriguing event that mentions a metaphysical realm called final heaven, and I noticed that place isn't mentioned in the current DC cosmology page. In my quick research to the metaphysical aspects of Superman I learned some fascinating details that might help anyone who wishes to make a future CRT on the Story of Superman.
- 1,173
- 525
I could try for 6D DC heralds
Via scaling to Emanation Apokolips which exists beyond space-time in DC which can get to 5D via quantum waveform collapse
What do yall think?
Via scaling to Emanation Apokolips which exists beyond space-time in DC which can get to 5D via quantum waveform collapse
What do yall think?
- 376
- 384
That is part of my upcoming heralds revision. This only applies to some. Some heralds will be upgraded whereas others are going to be downgraded. One person in particular is going to be completely downgraded to fodder tier since his feat is a literal contradiction of previous comics in the same run.
- 315
- 87
Will you include New 52 God of Strength Superman in the upgrade thread?
I know you don't like the New 52, but I have a scan showing that Apokolips in new 52 is portrayed the same way as it was before the New 52.
Last edited:
- 342
- 106
I'm curious to know who gets downgraded
There's about 3 threads discussing why the 2C that changed to 2A then changed to low 1C was applied to a those who are currently low 1C
I know the obvious well known justice league members gets upgraded to 6D
But There's also the fact that random new gods can create universes so anyone who can fight some random god can be 5D
- 1,173
- 525
- 1,173
- 525
And who would that be XD
- 376
- 384
That would be Plasticman. Definitely a massive fraud.
Well one of the New-52 feats will be made High-3A by virtue of universes being recognized as infinite so you have that. There is also a 4A feat for that I found so at the very least as a low end, New-52 Superman will be 4A normally and 3C via his solar flare.
- 284
- 18
Guys can someone explain me in short why great darkness is not High 1-a+ as he was there before the spark of creation filling whatever void it was with its darkness.
Also I am seeing lot of verses with not even a word like multiverse mentioned at anypoint of their story of 1k-2ks chapters(lotm, nasuverse etc) classify for high1-a and high1-a+(through Symbolism) do you guys no longer need multiverse for higher scaling just spirit world or astral world etc is enough? This is just a question maybe I am bringing my old comicvine logic but whatever.
Also I am seeing lot of verses with not even a word like multiverse mentioned at anypoint of their story of 1k-2ks chapters(lotm, nasuverse etc) classify for high1-a and high1-a+(through Symbolism) do you guys no longer need multiverse for higher scaling just spirit world or astral world etc is enough? This is just a question maybe I am bringing my old comicvine logic but whatever.
Last edited:
- 376
- 384
GEB’s greatest feat is merely being superior to the Light of creation which is nowhere near qualifying for High-1A+. There are beings far more fundamental to the cosmology such as Pralaya who is a High-1A+ Type-2 being. GEB is not even the ultimate evil force in DC, that would be the anti-god, The Decreator, the echo cast by The Voice when it said “Let there be light.”
I suggest you look further into the verses that have High-1A+ Type-1s and 2s such as WOD or any random Chinaman series. They absolutely trivialize anything published by DC to a comedic degree. Not having a multiverse does not prevent a verse from being rate unfathomably high. It is actually quite difficult for a comic based verse to have beings rated that high as the medium in inherent limiting. These other verses are often written as novels as such they can have extremely detailed philosophical descriptions of beings or describe cosmological structures in ways that places them far beyond anything that you could ever reasonably describe in a comic book.
- 284
- 18
I dont think thats how it should work being novel they have to describe the ambience to people to help visualise what the the writer wanted to convey which he does through using analogies and metaphor etc. One verse being placed so high above for just having a spirit world or astral world while the other have exactly that and more, while also going in levels in meta narrative and operate on meta stories is actually dis-serving to the latter. Having visual just become its fault at this point.
Last edited:
- 315
- 87
I dont know when did Superman new 52 destroying H3A level universe. But God of strength Superman would be Low1-C because he's sphere of god level. This is a proof sphere of god's nature doesnt change in new 52.
Guardian of universe knowledge unable to identify apokolips stuff, because apokolips is somewhere else disconnected to multiverse that's why batman said they arent the same as parallel earth. Which is consistent with post crisis era saying they are another world & consistent with pre crisis era.
- 1,173
- 525
Oh if its plastic man then downgraded him
- 376
- 384
- 1,173
- 525
Hold on Elephant I do think DC beats out Chinamen verses it's just under researched
- 284
- 18
The chain scaling of these LN/WN verses goes like this Paralaya being fundamental to cosmology get High1-A+ though symbolism etc.. and then swamp thing and Zatanna creating world tree to banish Paralya also get High 1-A+ anyone that can do that get high1-A+. Lucifer and Michael destroyed the world tree from just the collateral side effect also get High 1-A+ etc....
As someone who has read entirety of LOTM reading this made just laugh and I even have it as top3 stories ever.
As someone who has read entirety of LOTM reading this made just laugh and I even have it as top3 stories ever.
Last edited:
- 1,173
- 525
I'm not against High 1-A Morningstar...
But on another note I do think the Sphere is High 1-A
- 284
- 18
Read the scan I updated in the last comment lol if we use that logic everyone in sphere is High1-a+ and everyone that can banish them.
- 1,173
- 525
It's a high end yes but it's not that consistent imo
- 179
- 82
High 1A+ should be reserved for the apex of the cosmology or as a minor substitute to a true aperion being. You can't share that tier unless is just different personification of the same being, that said it has a lot of "preferencial treatment" within the wiki and no the archangels can't be high 1A+ for they are not truly the apex.
- 179
- 82
Let people wank their verses, this site is not an end all be all on scaling, popular verses get ranked highly do a large no of supporters or also lowly due to opposition as well.
- 179
- 82
Is is true that atoms are high1A+ or just a joke
- 1,173
- 525
West makes a lot of sense actually
Let the chinamen wank for their CCP points we'll try to stay as faithful as possible
I mean, look at Hoyoverse
Let the chinamen wank for their CCP points we'll try to stay as faithful as possible
I mean, look at Hoyoverse
- 284
- 18
-1billion social credit require a formal appology Zhon zhena style.West makes a lot of sense actually
Let the chinamen wank for their CCP points we'll try to stay as faithful as possible
I mean, look at Hoyoverse
