General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[PRIDEXEGO]

So existence exists as a flaw in the overvoid which shocked the overvoid and in turn it created the monitors to investigate it.

Existence was also made by the source, which gave the 7 forces of creation to the hands like perpetua to create multiverses.

These two stories of creation are contradictory since the overvoid=source.

Comics always have contradictory statement because of different writters.
The supremen being as mentioned here in wikki is "Unknowable".
I like to image source, overvoid and presence as face of the supreme being. Source being the ink, overvoid being his body and presence being the action. Ofcourse this is all my headcanon.
However what is not headcanon.
Pepertua came from the greater omniverse as the hand of the "presence, of the source" sent by judges of the source to create DC in overvoid. She pulled monitors, world forger and antimonitors from the overvoid.

Why "presence, of the source" ? Because DC write it like to confuse this even more I think.
In imaginary axis video Synder did said that vertigo creation happen after perpetua creation. If we take interview as canon idk if thats valid here.

 

[KirbyFan03]

So existence exists as a flaw in the overvoid which shocked the overvoid and in turn it created the monitors to investigate it.

Existence was also made by the source, which gave the 7 forces of creation to the hands like perpetua to create multiverses.

These two stories of creation are contradictory since the overvoid=source.

You also have instances where The Source has shown superiority over The Overvoid

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

Presence is also mentioned as supreme being in DC in the "A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained".
But you look at the play of word they only mentioned Omniverse not Greater Omniverse and it could also be calling perpetua the supreme being not the Presence, even though she is hand of the Presence.

It get bit confusing because in lucifer series the ball that Monopoly man version of presence had in his hand was called totality. And perpetua used totality to create the multiverse? Maybe just a word play.

 

[Wirtzwest]

If Mothernight was the supreme being in Veritgo then Dream of the endless would not have stated "lucifer is the most powerful thing beside his creator" he would have said " he is the most powerful thing after mother night and his creator".
They are just the creator of endless not everything its when night and time meet creation are formed the the force that make them meet is void is stronger than them. Its like hecate she is was created with birth of sphere of gods but she did not cause her birth itself. Entire creation was created by perpetua during that process sphere of gods birth was happened with birth of Hecate.

Conceptually she is and you need to realise in vertigo there are other creations where lucifer and his father have no domain over. The only one who can surpass her is the monad described in the dreaming by spurrier.

 

[Wirtzwest]

Presence is also mentioned as supreme being in DC in the "A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained".
But you look at the play of word they only mentioned Omniverse not Greater Omniverse and it could also be calling perpetua the supreme being not the Presence, even though she is hand of the Presence.

It get bit confusing because in lucifer series the ball that Monopoly man version of presence had in his hand was called totality. And perpetua used totality to create the multiverse? Maybe just a word play.

The top dogs in DC is the overvoid(Morrison), source or dematteis God. Lucifer cannot survive in the overvoid and the void he went to was not the same as the overvoid.

 

[Wirtzwest]

You also have instances where The Source has shown superiority over The Overvoid

Depends which source we are talking about and which kind of overvoid.

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

The top dogs in DC is the overvoid(Morrison), source or dematteis God. Lucifer cannot survive in the overvoid and the void he went to was not the same as the overvoid.

This is highly inconsistent because perpetua created DC multiverse in Overvoid and perpetua creation last for 20billion years and Lucifer saw all 20billion year history of creation in blink of eye before flewing in the void.
Perpetua even rented monitors, world forger and anitmonitos from the overvoid itself its literally stated.
Synder said the Lucifer creation is after the Perpetua creation.
Overvoid is said void many times.
You just cant say void in lucifer series in not overvoid when everything line up together.

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

Conceptually she is and you need to realise in vertigo there are other creations where lucifer and his father have no domain over. The only one who can surpass her is the monad described in the dreaming by spurrier.

If she was the superme being dream of the endless would know about it and would not call lucifer the strongest. She is like hecate if anything merger of night and time create creation which birthed endless and force that make them meet are creators and that is exactly what lucifer did two times. Or any hand of the presence/source does.

 

[Wirtzwest]

If she was the superme being dream of the endless would know about it and would not call lucifer the strongest. She is like hecate if anything merger of night and time create creation which birthed endless and force that make them meet are creators and that is exactly what lucifer did two times. Or any hand of the presence/source does.

How can lucifer be the strongest when he himself is bounded by destiny? A primal nothingness before creation is equal to a magical being who was dreamt into existence. Fairs.

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

How can lucifer be the strongest when he himself is bounded by destiny? A primal nothingness before creation is equal to a magical being who was dreamt into existence. Fairs.

? Its not my word its the word of favourite son of mother night himself. Why would I make things up. If you want scan I find it for you. Also lucifer is said to pass between multiverses in series 2.

 

[KirbyFan03]

How can lucifer be the strongest when he himself is bounded by destiny? A primal nothingness before creation is equal to a magical being who was dreamt into existence. Fairs.

Didn't he tear Destinies book and escaped The Presences plan?

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

Do you scale monitor, anit-montors above lucifer and all endless then I can see the logic you are coming from as you consider lucifer from and vertigo presence as being from sphere of gods below monitor sphere and bleed.
But I am coming from the point that their creation are two different creations like what synder said. Lucifer creation is after perpetua creation. The fact he can watch entire 20billion years of rise and fall of creation which is life span of DC creation that perpetua created says itself.

 

[KirbyFan03]

Do you scale monitor, anit-montors above lucifer and all endless then I can see the logic you are coming from as you consider lucifer from and vertigo presence as being from sphere of gods below monitor sphere and bleed.
But I am coming from the point that their creation are two different creations like what synder said. Lucifer creation is after perpetua creation. The fact he can watch entire 20billion years of rise and fall of creation which is life span of DC creation that perpetua created says itself.

Lucifer is > The Hands

On that note there's not really a difference in quantative or even qualitative between DCs 4-6D

 

[FroYoSans]

What I would like to know is why Post Crisis Flash scales to High 1-A from absorbing the Speed Force...despite the Speed Force only recently getting this tier from a modern comic run that is far removed from Post Crisis. Like while I'm all for High 1-A Flash (my GOAT fr, he's 2 of my top 3 oat), it seems like a weird tier to give him just considering how different Spurrier's speed force is compared to Post Crisis

 

[Wirtzwest]

Didn't he tear Destinies book and escaped The Presences plan?

No. In the old series when he burned the book the ashes told lucifer what was bound to happen and it did.

 

[KirbyFan03]

No. In the old series when he burned the book the ashes told lucifer what was bound to happen and it did.

Layered fate manip fr fr

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

What I would like to know is why Post Crisis Flash scales to High 1-A from absorbing the Speed Force...despite the Speed Force only recently getting this tier from a modern comic run that is far removed from Post Crisis. Like while I'm all for High 1-A Flash (my GOAT fr, he's 2 of my top 3 oat), it seems like a weird tier to give him just considering how different Spurrier's speed force is compared to Post Crisis

I think it because of the end of the dark knight metal as there was a continuity merger when wonder woman channel all anti-crisis energy. Different continuities merged.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Lucifer is > The Hands

On that note there's not really a difference in quantative or even qualitative between DCs 4-6D

There are it just hasn’t been addressed yet.

What I would like to know is why Post Crisis Flash scales to High 1-A from absorbing the Speed Force...despite the Speed Force only recently getting this tier from a modern comic run that is far removed from Post Crisis. Like while I'm all for High 1-A Flash (my GOAT fr, he's 2 of my top 3 oat), it seems like a weird tier to give him just considering how different Spurrier's speed force is compared to Post Crisis

None of the Flashes should have High-1A statistics. The Speed Force is baseline 1A. Due to some misunderstandings of The Flash Vol6 it was incorrectly upgraded to High-1A. I will get around to fixing this sometime after I finish what I am working on at the present, the Heralds and low level cosmic beings.

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

Layered fate manip fr fr

Tbf book of destiny only contain everything inside the creation not the being that goes outside we have no record of endless existing outside creation. But they exist in all creation and even the newly made creation like the one lucifer made endless immediately appear there. So anyone who left the creation is immune to endless effect however after coming into creation they are effected. When lucifer watch the rise and fall of creation he was immune to destiny of the endless he was not the part of his book during the rise and fall of that creation, destiny of the endless was taken by Death of the endless in that creation at the end.

Similarly Silkman was also outlived his creation destiny and his book and he has claimed he has cheated death of the endless and will continue to do it over and over for forever, and he truly could have achieve that but once you are inside creation endless also exist and you are recorded in destiny book. The moment he took contract on lucifer he sealed his fate.

Outside creation there is no destiny but chronicler who just record events and fates of the all creations in overvoid I think of its as a recorder of greater omniverse.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

didn't even realize we had one.
just dropping by to say i disagree with nearly all our scaling on the wiki lmfao

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

There are it just hasn’t been addressed yet.

None of the Flashes should have High-1A statistics. The Speed Force is baseline 1A. Due to some misunderstandings of The Flash Vol6 it was incorrectly upgraded to High-1A. I will get around to fixing this sometime after I finish what I am working on at the present, the Heralds and low level cosmic beings.

Not even wally who can got out of the story and recton entire creation? He did that during his fight aginst eldrich geomatery. And another recent run. He is the only flash thats said to break speedforce and exceed it.

 

[KirbyFan03]

didn't even realize we had one.
just dropping by to say i disagree with nearly all our scaling on the wiki lmfao

How so?

 

[Hecky2222]

None of the Flashes should have High-1A statistics. The Speed Force is baseline 1A. Due to some misunderstandings of The Flash Vol6 it was incorrectly upgraded to High-1A. I will get around to fixing this sometime after I finish what I am working on at the present, the Heralds and low level cosmic beings.

so true

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

read this comic before nerfing my boi Wally.
He can side step out of story and recton it. Did it in two storylines.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

How so?

find superboy prime and even current superman being low 1-C to be wild lol

 

[KirbyFan03]

find superboy prime and even current superman being low 1-C to be wild lol

Oh yeah that makes sense

From what I understand they'd scale to DCs material multiverse which got upgraded from a scan in The Next a 2000s series as well as some stuff from the 80s and 90s to possibly even recently

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Oh yeah that makes sense

From what I understand they'd scale to DCs material multiverse which got upgraded from a scan in The Next a 2000s series as well as some stuff from the 80s and 90s to possibly even recently

The recent Herald’s upgrade was a preliminary measure as such pretty much everyone was upgraded from 2A to low-1C. The reality is only a select few characters actually have feats that justify low-1C. When I get to my big heralds revision in July, the majority of people upgraded from 2A to low-1C will be heading back to 2A where they belong.

read this comic before nerfing my boi Wally.
He can side step out of story and recton it. Did it in two storylines.

Wally is still getting nerfed. People have either misunderstood, deliberately obfuscated details, or looked over information in Flash Vol6 to wank Wally to High-1A. While he is very powerful he simply isn’t that guy.

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

The recent Herald’s upgrade was a preliminary measure as such pretty much everyone was upgraded from 2A to low-1C. The reality is only a select few characters actually have feats that justify low-1C. When I get to my big heralds revision in July, the majority of people upgraded from 2A to low-1C will be heading back to 2A where they belong.

Wally is still getting nerfed. People have either misunderstood, deliberately obfuscated details, or looked over information in Flash Vol6 to wank Wally to High-1A. While he is very powerful he simply isn’t that guy.

But he reset the creation itself it literally said so in flash #12 or #13

 

[Bimgus8010]

The recent Herald’s upgrade was a preliminary measure as such pretty much everyone was upgraded from 2A to low-1C. The reality is only a select few characters actually have feats that justify low-1C. When I get to my big heralds revision in July, the majority of people upgraded from 2A to low-1C will be heading back to 2A where they belong.

Wally is still getting nerfed. People have either misunderstood, deliberately obfuscated details, or looked over information in Flash Vol6 to wank Wally to High-1A. While he is very powerful he simply isn’t that guy.

Respectfully disagree

A lot of people Scale to Mobius, emotional entities, starbreaker, god brainiac (multiverse affecting people)

Which would make them low 1C

 

[Bimgus8010]

Also, did you guys watch this?

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

Yo our boi prime won so no hate comment lol

 

[KirbyFan03]

The recent Herald’s upgrade was a preliminary measure as such pretty much everyone was upgraded from 2A to low-1C. The reality is only a select few characters actually have feats that justify low-1C. When I get to my big heralds revision in July, the majority of people upgraded from 2A to low-1C will be heading back to 2A where they belong.

Wally is still getting nerfed. People have either misunderstood, deliberately obfuscated details, or looked over information in Flash Vol6 to wank Wally to High-1A. While he is very powerful he simply isn’t that guy.

I do agree only the strongest of the heralds should be Low 1-C

Dont you plan on upgrading them to 8D later?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

I do agree only the strongest of the heralds should be Low 1-C

Dont you plan on upgrading them to 8D later?

I have a proposed tier split on multiple levels that can address the problem as not everyone should be scaled to other characters peak capacity unless their is explicit evidence of such.

Yes, I do plan on upgrading some character further. Some of the Heralds that have uniquely high feats, particularly: Rebirth Black Adam / Shazam, Rebirth Doctor Light / Dark Pariah, The Rebirth Flash Family (at their base level when NOT tapping into the entire Speed Force), Rebirth Superman (Post War World), and Rebirth Hal Jordan. These however are feats that ONLY scale to that particular character and NONE of the other Heralds though.

As you can see from my work in progress revised Hal Jordan profile, he is capable of operating well beyond the capacity of the other Heralds.

 

[Bimgus8010]

I have a proposed tier split on multiple levels that can address the problem as not everyone should be scaled to other characters peak capacity unless their is explicit evidence of such.

Yes, I do plan on upgrading some character further. Some of the Heralds that have uniquely high feats, particularly: Rebirth Black Adam / Shazam, Rebirth Doctor Light / Dark Pariah, The Rebirth Flash Family (at their base level when NOT tapping into the entire Speed Force), Rebirth Superman (Post War World), and Rebirth Hal Jordan. These however are feats that ONLY scale to that particular character and NONE of the other Heralds though.

As you can see from my work in progress revised Hal Jordan profile, he is capable of operating well beyond the capacity of the other Heralds.

Are we seriously adding

On earth he's x tier
In space he's x tier
When not holding back, he's x tier
With raw willpower, he's x tier
At peak, he's x tier

Like good lord, why are we adding unnecessary amounts of tiers to each key


Also, some feats don't work like this one which I think I mentioned which you dodged about spectre supposedly having a fair fight with Hal but when you look at the link, it's once again not the case as the spectre couldn't actually hurt Hal since rules


I also touched on willworld which you once again dodged

 

[FroYoSans]

I think it because of the end of the dark knight metal as there was a continuity merger when wonder woman channel all anti-crisis energy. Different continuities merged.

Sure but that's a modern merge that wouldn't retroactively apply to back when the idea wasn't even a thing

There are it just hasn’t been addressed yet.

None of the Flashes should have High-1A statistics. The Speed Force is baseline 1A. Due to some misunderstandings of The Flash Vol6 it was incorrectly upgraded to High-1A. I will get around to fixing this sometime after I finish what I am working on at the present, the Heralds and low level cosmic beings.

This doesn't really address my point honestly, even though I'm biased and don't want my GOAT downgraded (even though I find it weird that others find it weird when it's not even their actual stats it's effectively a giant mega-amp that they haven't done in over a decade), I moreso meant why is Post Crisis rated the same tier as current Speed Force at all? The Deep Change is so wildly different from what the Speed Force was in Post Crisis.

I'm more curious about what's been misunderstood as I've now read through Issued 1-20 twice now and Deep Change seems to be the same as the actual source itself and above the 6th dimension