Garou Copying 3A CRT

[Maitreya12]

Ok, hopefully this remains a rather uncontentious issue and have this CRT go through rather easily since I believe the points to be rather simple.

Position: Garou can copy the AP of characters up to 3A.

Evidence: Garou is directly cited as being able to copy the AP of opponents who are vastly stronger than himself. In fact this is how he went from 5A/4C to 4A and then to a near baseline 3C with further copying of AP. This is a difference of tens of zeroes.

Counters: "3A is vastly higher than Garou's current 4A peak. Therefore he cannot copy it."

Rebuttals: This stance is irrelevant. The reason it is irrelevant is for the fact that Garou is already confirmed and accepted as having the ability to copy the AP of his opponents even if they are vastly stronger than himself. The point of contention is the difference of AP that Garou should reasonably be able to copy. However, the difference of AP that Garou has on panel copied is comparable to the difference of AP between his 4A and baseline 3A.

To go into numbers for a bit: Garou went from 10^36/10^44 joules according to his profile, to 10^64 joules in a single copying instance. That is a difference of 20-28 zeroes. And then from that point he only further increased his AP via copying which would result in to the point of being a near baseline 3C. Which means Garou copied up to a difference of 22-30 zeroes via his copying ability. For reference, 3A begins at 10^92 joules, which is a 28 zero difference from the Garou from before his exponential increase from Saitama. Which means that the difference in AP between Garou and 3A is within the reasonable range of multipliers Garou has on panel demonstrated to be able to copy.

To say that Garou cannot copy 3A AP despite the difference of AP between Garou and 3A being within the range of difference he has copied before means that there is an intrinsic difference between 3A than all other keys that makes it so Garou cannot copy it. Which would require evidence to support the claim as since 3A is a finite number and within the ranges of difference Garou has demonstrated to be able to copy he should be able to copy it, as there is no intrinsic difference like in high 3A, which is infinity, which would classify as an intrinsic difference that Garou does not have evidence for to copy. So there should be no point of contention in Garou copying up to 3A AP.

There...CRT over

Agree: @Maitreya @Kiraa @Recon1511 @ZillertheBucko @Tony_di_bugalu @Cryo123 @Greatsage13th @Dienomite22 @GilverTheProtoAngelo@GodlyCharmander @KillerH @Unknownnah @Darksmash @Vizer04 @Bernkastelll @Trax
Disagree: @Purgy @Pain_to12 @AguilaR202 @Agnaa @DontTalkDT @Diablo_ @Braking @Tdjwo @DarlingAurora @Damage3245 @Matthew_Schroeder @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @BOEGVELD @RamizDayii @Therefir @LordTracer @LordGinSama @Maverick_Zero_X
Neutral: @LordGriffin1000 @LNZO19 @LaserPrecision @SheevShezarrine

 

[RandomGuy2345]

 

[NHTkenshin2]

 

[Maitreya12]

I was told to do this

 

[Kiraa]

I don't really see the point of the threead but i disagree

 

[SuperStar]

Here for the comments

 

[Recon1511]

I agree

 

[Purgy]

What are you basing Garou being able to jump another 10^28 joules on? Is there actually any evidence whatsoever to support this or is your argument, "well he did it once so he can do it again"? Even though that line of logic could easily just result in Garou being countless times 3-A as he'd just keep increasing by the same gap repeatedly?

The fact of the matter is:

• Garou has no feats of copying anyone even remotely close to 3-A
• Garou's power mimicry is never stated to be limitless

The premise is literally just NLF, every ability has an assumed limit and that limit is generally the maximum that it has shown or a little higher, this is no different with power mimicry, it's assumed limit is around the highest thing it has copied and that has always been the case.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Essentially, "Garou jumped from 4-A to 3-C; therefore, Garou can jump from 3-C to 3-A," no?

Garou is already confirmed and accepted as having the ability to copy the AP of his opponents even if they are vastly stronger than himself.

i feel like there is a term for this kind of statement. 's on the tip of my tongue...

 

[Damage3245]

Neutral on this.

(EDIT: This comment was written before Purgy's and Null's comments were posted. They do make good points)

 

[ZillertheBucko]

this reasoning aint it but I agree for reasons that I'll say in uhhh
one sec

 

[PrinceofPein]

Disagree FRA

 

[Maitreya12]

What are you basing Garou being able to jump another 10^28 joules on? Is there actually any evidence whatsoever to support this or is your argument, "well he did it once so he can do it again"? Even though that line of logic could easily just result in Garou being countless times 3-A as he'd just keep increasing by the same gap repeatedly?

Yes there is, and I laid out the evidence in my initial post.

The fact of the matter is:

• Garou has no feats of copying anyone even remotely close to 3-A
• Garou's power mimicry is never stated to be limitless

Irrelevant. Garou has shown to be able to copy someone vastly stronger than himself, ergo he can copy 3A as there is no intrinsic difference of 3A that makes it so he can’t copy it. 3A just simply being vastly above Garou doesn’t disprove he can copy it as Garou has proven he can copy AP vastly above himself.

Also he did directly state he can “copy limitlessly.” Also this is irrelevant to the point since I didn’t say Garou’s copying ability was limitless, I said he could copy 3A which is a finite number.

The premise is literally just NLF, every ability has an assumed limit and that limit is generally the maximum that it has shown or a little higher, this is no different with power mimicry, it's assumed limit is around the highest thing it has copied and that has always been the case.

It is not, you do not understand what a NLF means nor does simply saying a fallacy disprove the argument. As that is a fallacy fallacy. And there is an assumed limit to Garou’s copying ability, as I directly said he can’t copy things up to high 3A and above as there is an intrinsic difference between the infinite high 3A compared to the finite differences of of regular 3A. Your argument here holds no water.

 

[Maitreya12]

Essentially, "Garou jumped from 4-A to 3-C; therefore, Garou can jump from 3-C to 3-A," no?

i feel like there is a term for this kind of statement. 's on the tip of my tongue...

No. Essentially “Garou jumped from 5A/4C to high end 4A/ baseline 3C, therefore Garou can jump from 3C to 3A as the difference in AP is within the range of difference Garou has on panel copied.”

Literally on the link you posted there’s something called the “fallacy fallacy,” so you simply stating “your argument is a fallacy” does not disprove my position according to the link you very posted.

 

[Braking]

only baseline? F

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I'm not gonna say NLF cuz other people already said that. What I will say is what feat is this exactly based on? We already have the "higher with Reactive Evolution" and I don't exactly think it would be best to just give him 3-A cuz he can potentially copy someone who's 3-A despite the fact there's literally no one he fought who's 3-A.

 

[Recon1511]

I mean this is why we have "Varies with Power Mimicry" on his profile...

 

[Purgy]

Irrelevant. Garou has shown to be able to copy someone vastly stronger than himself, ergo he can copy 3A as there is no intrinsic difference of 3A that makes it so he can’t copy it. 3A just simply being vastly above Garou doesn’t disprove he can copy it as Garou has proven he can copy AP vastly above himself.

He copied someone stronger than himself yes, he didn't copy anyone even remotely close to 3-A though.

Also he did directly state he can “copy limitlessly.” Also this is irrelevant to the point since I didn’t say Garou’s copying ability was limitless, I said he could copy 3A which is a finite number.

He said he could copy Saitama limitlessly, that isn't quite the same thing as having no limits because Saitama himself is only 4-A and there's no proof Saitama could become 3-A either.

A trillion times into 3-A is also a finite number, is that also fine for Garou to be able to copy with absolutely zero proof?

It is not, you do not understand what a NLF means nor does simply saying a fallacy disprove the argument. As that is a fallacy fallacy. And there is an assumed limit to Garou’s copying ability, as I directly said he can’t copy things up to high 3A and above as there is an intrinsic difference between the infinite high 3A compared to the finite differences of of regular 3A. Your argument here holds no water.

You'd have a point if all I said was "NLF" and didn't refute any of your arguments, but that's not exactly what I'm doing is it?

There's no intrinsic difference between 10-A and 3-A either so I guess literally any fodder character that has power mimicry can reach 3-A after extended periods of time without needing explicit proof?

The limit of Garou's copying is the highest thing he's copied, this applies to almost every power mimicry user and Garou has no reason to be an exception.

Garou being capable of endlessly increasing his strength by the gap between High 4-C and 4-A is baseless, there's absolutely no proof Garou can increase his power by a further 10^24 joules beyond what he already copied.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

the reason for why garou can copy 3-A has nothing to do with anything brought up in the original post
the actual evidence has everything to do with the removed limiter garou has, which is really the only tangible evidence that garou can copy 3-A
I say we should scrap this crt and replace it with a better one, since this is just the wrong way to go about things, and a bad OP usually ruins the chances of the revision going through

 

[Maitreya12]

He copied someone stronger than himself yes, he didn't copy anyone even remotely close to 3-A though.

He said he could copy Saitama limitlessly, that isn't quite the same thing as having no limits because Saitama himself is only 4-A and there's no proof Saitama could become 3-A either.

So what. What is the intrinsic difference in being 3A that prevents Garou from being able to copy it when the difference in AP in comparable to the difference in AP Garou has already copied.

Ah yes Saitama, someone he directly stated was “limitlessly strong” and therefore responded with he can “copy him limitlessly.” Which would entail “limitless copying” capabilities.

A trillion times into 3-A is also a finite number, is that also fine for Garou to be able to copy with absolutely zero proof?

What do you mean “no evidence.” Is jumping up 30 zeroes not “evidence” for you that he can indeed get trillions of times stronger

You'd have a point if all I said was "NLF" and didn't refute any of your arguments, but that's not exactly what I'm doing is it?

Actually it is since you have not refuted any of my arguments. You’ve simply made claims that my arguments were invalid while offering no proper rebuttal to it.

There's no intrinsic difference between 10-A and 3-A either so I guess literally any fodder character that has power mimicry can reach 3-A after extended periods of time without needing explicit proof?

Are you just not reading what I’m saying? Let me repeat myself:

The difference in AP Garou has copied is comparable to the difference in AP between him and 3A.

So this would be the equivalent of a 10A character being able to copy AP and copied AP to the point of 6A thanks to fighting an opponent who was 6A, then using that as a basis to say he could copy the AP of someone 4B assuming the difference in AP he copied is reasonably similar to the difference in AP between him and his new 4B opponent

The limit of Garou's copying is the highest thing he's copied, this applies to almost every power mimicry user and Garou has no reason to be an exception.

This doesn’t make any sense whatsoever since one of Garou’s abilities was that he can copy people stronger than himself. So you’re saying one of Garou’s abilities doesn’t exist. There’s also no indication that this is the “limit” that Garou can copy, in fact to claim such a thing is a positive claim that required evidence to be substantiated.

Garou being capable of endlessly increasing his strength by the gap between High 4-C and 4-A is baseless, there's absolutely no proof Garou can increase his power by a further 10^24 joules beyond what he already copied.

Why not. Your only response to that is to claim that’s a “no limits fallacy” which is a fallacy in of itself, so why can’t Garou copy the AP Of characters beyond what he has already copied.

 

[AguilaR202]

The relation between Garous initial AP vs the power he copied for saitama are the result of our own out of universe calculations/assumptions .

We don’t have anything in universe supporting the notion that Garou grows to match power 10e22 above his own all the time every time.

 

[Maitreya12]

I'm not gonna say NLF cuz other people already said that. What I will say is what feat is this exactly based on? We already have the "higher with Reactive Evolution" and I don't exactly think it would be best to just give him 3-A cuz he can potentially copy someone who's 3-A despite the fact there's literally no one he fought who's 3-A.

I’m not arguing that on Garou’s profile he should be listed as having 3A. I’m arguing for in vs battles he can copy someone with 3A AP due to him having the ability to copy AP.

This is based on his copying ability being able to copy the AP of characters vastly stronger than himself, and the difference in AP he copied is comparable to the difference in AP between him and 3A.

 

[PrinceofPein]

he can copy someone with 3A AP

Before or after he gets turned into paste? Or vapourized?

 

[Maitreya12]

Before or after he gets turned into paste? Or vapourized?

I mean he was able to copy Saitama’s punch before he got turned to paste sooo…

 

[PrinceofPein]

I mean he was able to copy Saitama’s punch before he got turned to paste sooo…

Because the gap between him and Saitama is not enough to turn him into paste to begin with.

 

[Purgy]

So what. What is the intrinsic difference in being 3A that prevents Garou from being able to copy it when the difference in AP in comparable to the difference in AP Garou has already copied.

There doesn't need to be an intrinsic difference when there's a massive numerical difference, we don't just let anyone with power mimicry copy any finite AP without extremely large amounts of evidence because it's a blatant NLF to assume they can by default.

First of all, the gap Garou jumped isn't comparable to the gap between 4-A and 3-A at all

• The gap between Garou's rating of High 4-C and 4-A is 2.8259256e+19
• The gap between Garou's rating of 4-A and 3-A is 9.9967247e+27

The difference between those differences is 350,000,000 times at least, so you're pretty much arguing Garou can get 350,000,000 times stronger than he ever demonstrated

That's a ridiculously massive gap between the maximum Garou ended up copying and what you're arguing he can copy with no proof

Ah yes Saitama, someone he directly stated was “limitlessly strong” and therefore responded with he can “copy him limitlessly.” Which would entail “limitless copying” capabilities.

No, it entails him limitlessly copying Saitama who's 4-A, which means nothing lol.

If you want Saitama to be limitlessly strong go ahead and make a High 3-A Saitama CRT or something.

What do you mean “no evidence.” Is jumping up 30 zeroes not “evidence” for you that he can indeed get trillions of times stronger

First, that's not enough as I pointed out above, the difference is much greater than that

Second, it's not so much the fact that he was able to jump that gap, it's the fact that you're trying to say he can do it repeatedly when there's no indication of this, again, 4-A could just be the peak that he's able to reach with his power mimicry, it's unprovable either way.

Actually it is since you have not refuted any of my arguments. You’ve simply made claims that my arguments were invalid while offering no proper rebuttal to it.

I've denied all of your arguments, I didn't mean refute as in factually prove wrong, rather refute as in attempt to prove wrong.

Are you just not reading what I’m saying? Let me repeat myself:

The difference in AP Garou has copied is comparable to the difference in AP between him and 3A.

But again, it isn't though, unless you've got math manipulation and can change what numbers represent.

So this would be the equivalent of a 10A character being able to copy AP and copied AP to the point of 6A thanks to fighting an opponent who was 6A, then using that as a basis to say he could copy the AP of someone 4B assuming the difference in AP he copied is reasonably similar to the difference in AP between him and his new 4B opponent

That's the problem, you're essentially arguing characters with power mimicry can just endlessly copy to reach nigh-infinite levels of 3-A, again, pretty much the definition of NLF.

A 10-A who copied someone who's 6-A can't then go onto copy someone again and reach High 6-A and then again to reach 5-C and then against to reach Low 5-B repeating that almost ad infinitum until they reach uncountable levels of 3-A.

This doesn’t make any sense whatsoever since one of Garou’s abilities was that he can copy people stronger than himself. So you’re saying one of Garou’s abilities doesn’t exist. There’s also no indication that this is the “limit” that Garou can copy, in fact to claim such a thing is a positive claim that required evidence to be substantiated.

Why not. Your only response to that is to claim that’s a “no limits fallacy” which is a fallacy in of itself, so why can’t Garou copy the AP Of characters beyond what he has already copied.

I'm not saying Garou's ability doesn't exist, I'm just saying there's absolutely no proof he can jump to 3-A, I'm sure if for example; Character A was 10x stronger than Garou then Garou could probably copy his power, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, the higher you go into the numbers the more evidence required to claim he can copy them.

Attempting to dismiss my claims by pretending I didn't make any is pretty immature, anyone should be able to see that I've done more than claim NLF, though it is a NLF so I'll keep saying that.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I mean he was able to copy Saitama’s punch before he got turned to paste sooo…

Saitama isn't 3-A tho

 

[Maitreya12]

Because the gap between him and Saitama is not enough to turn him into paste to begin with.

The gap between someone who’s 4C and someone who’s 4A isn’t enough to turn someone into paste? What?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I do agree with this because it always seemed obvious to me. It's hax, 3D hax and 3A is still within the same level.

My idea goes around the same way as a 10-A being able to mind hax a 3A if they lack resistance even if they never did in their own verse.

What is actually a counter to this is the fact that he couldn't copy Saitama after he grew exponentially and the chart presented doesn't make him favors.

Edit to make myself clear: I do agree with power mimicry being able to copy whatever the hell it copies as long as it is within the playing field (like a 10A getting up to 3A with it because hax and stuff), disagree with Garou being able to do it since the Manga shows he has a clear ass limit to how much he can copy

 

[PrinceofPein]

The gap between someone who’s 4C and someone who’s 4A isn’t enough to turn someone into paste? What?

Nope actually, he has been fighting saitama longer even as 4-C, they literally got 4-A from a shared feat that they did together. Saitama did not have a 4-A rating before the feat.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

The entire premise of this CRT is upgrading a character based on a assumptions plain and simple.

-There's no 3-A feat

-There's no 3-A lore/statement

Ergo I don't logically see why the character should be upgraded to 3-A.

What is actually a counter to this is the fact that he couldn't copy Saitama after he grew exponentially and the chart presented doesn't make him favors.

^This too and saying "Saitama can adapt higher into 3-A than Garou can mimic" isn't a vaild explanation.

 

[Tdjwo]

On what base do you claim "3-A?" He never fought anyone remotely close to that nor did he destroy anything as large as that. So how and why should he be 3-A? Reactive evolution doesn't work like this.

 

[Purgy]

I do agree with this because it always seemed obvious to me. It's hax, 3D hax and 3A is still within the same level.

My idea goes around the same way as a 10-A being able to mind hax a 3A if they lack resistance even if they never did in their own verse.

What is actually a counter to this is the fact that he couldn't copy Saitama after he grew exponentially and the chart presented doesn't make him favors.

So for clear clarification, you're completely fine with power mimicry in general being able to copy any finite levels of AP?

A 10-C can copy 3-A DBS Goku because it's still finite AP?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Who thought that this thread was a good idea?

I just want to have a talk with them...

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So for clear clarification, you're completely fine with power mimicry in general being able to copy any finite levels of AP?

A 10-C can copy 3-A DBS Goku because it's still finite AP?

Ye

 

[Greatsage13th]

Hmm

 

[Maitreya12]

There doesn't need to be an intrinsic difference when there's a massive numerical difference, we don't just let anyone with power mimicry copy any finite AP without extremely large amounts of evidence because it's a blatant NLF to assume they can by default.

First of all, the gap Garou jumped isn't comparable to the gap between 4-A and 3-A at all

• The gap between Garou's rating of High 4-C and 4-A is 2.8259256e+19
• The gap between Garou's rating of 4-A and 3-A is 9.9967247e+27

The difference between those differences is 350,000,000 times at least, so you're pretty much arguing Garou can get 350,000,000 times stronger than he ever demonstrated

That's a ridiculously massive gap between the maximum Garou ended up copying and what you're arguing he can copy with no proof

The problem with your argument is that Garou has already overcome that massively or comparable numerical differences with his own AP. What you’re essentially arguing for is a character who can copy an person’s AP by 100x can’t copy someone who’s 100x stronger than himself because that person is 100x stronger than them. It’s nonsensical.

Also here’s another big issue with your numbers….try doing it with Garou’s 5A key. Since that’s literally what’s listed on his profile. I bet your results are gonna be much closer, what you just said here was literally all something I said at the very initial post. Hence why I said there was a difference of 20-28 zeroes that Garou copied, which is in his key.

A little weird to just ignore that whole point that I brought up to say my “numbers are wrong” when they weren’t at all.

No, it entails him limitlessly copying Saitama who's 4-A, which means nothing lol.

If you want Saitama to be limitlessly strong go ahead and make a High 3-A Saitama CRT or something.

Actually it does since it doesn’t matter whether or not Saitama is limitlessly strong, it matters whether or not Garou considers Saitama to be limitlessly strong.

Because if Garou considers Saitama to be limitlessly strong, then that must mean he also considers his copying ability to be limitless for his statement to make sense.

First, that's not enough as I pointed out above, the difference is much greater than that

Second, it's not so much the fact that he was able to jump that gap, it's the fact that you're trying to say he can do it repeatedly when there's no indication of this, again, 4-A could just be the peak that he's able to reach with his power mimicry, it's unprovable either way.

1) No it is not, you intentionally picked the 4C key for Garou to claim my “numbers were wrong” when literally in my initial post I cited how Garou’s key ranges from 5A/4C which means his power mimicry also ranges from 20-28 zeroes. And then some since Garou continued to grow after the fact.

2) Why is he not able to jump that gap again? He’s demonstrated the ability to copy AP, and the extent to which he can copy AP is by that amount at least. Therefore he’s able to copy that amount of AP, to suggest that this is Garou’s “copying limit” is a positive claim on your part since there’s nothing in the series that indicates this was Garou’s “copying limit.” Especially considering Garou was still on panel shown to continue to grow “exponentially” according to the narrator.

I've denied all of your arguments, I didn't mean refute as in factually prove wrong, rather refute as in attempt to prove wrong.

And I respectfully do not think you have adequately proved my positions to be invalid or incorrect in any way.

But again, it isn't though, unless you've got math manipulation and can change what numbers represent.

It literally is. You intentionally picking the 4C key while ignoring the 5A key for his power mimicry in an attempt to claim that my numbers are incorrect is pretty disingenuous not gonna lie. Especially when in my original post, my numbers were absolutely correct for the keys I posted.

That's the problem, you're essentially arguing characters with power mimicry can just endlessly copy to reach nigh-infinite levels of 3-A, again, pretty much the definition of NLF.

No I’m arguing that someone with power mimicry can copy the power of someone by the difference they’ve shown to be able to copy. Which in this case can very well result in 3A.

A 10-A who copied someone who's 6-A can't then go onto copy someone again and reach High 6-A and then again to reach 5-C and then against to reach Low 5-B repeating that almost ad infinitum until they reach uncountable levels of 3-A.

Wait a minute…why not? If your only argument in refutation to that is “that’s a no limits fallacy” then that does not prove the argument incorrect, because I can just as easily say that’s a fallacy fallacy. If you have an ability, a power you possess that allows you to copy someone’s AP. Then yes you can indeed find someone stronger than you, copy their AP, then move on to someone stronger than you. And continue on that method so long as your ability allows you. What is your issue if that is literally what the ability entails for the user?

I'm not saying Garou's ability doesn't exist, I'm just saying there's absolutely no proof he can jump to 3-A, I'm sure if for example; Character A was 10x stronger than Garou then Garou could probably copy his power, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, the higher you go into the numbers the more evidence required to claim he can copy them.

Attempting to dismiss my claims by pretending I didn't make any is pretty immature, anyone should be able to see that I've done more than claim NLF, though it is a NLF so I'll keep saying that.

Actually you are, whether you realize it or not. Because what you’re saying is that Garou can’t copy by the difference he’s copied previously. So if Garou can’t do that, why should it entail that Garou can copy any AP higher than his own?

Except I didn’t “dismiss” your claims, I responded to each argument you presented. And no a lot of arguments I found did end up being just saying it’s a NLF, which is in of itself a fallacy as well which I can also keep repeating.

 

[Maitreya12]

Saitama isn't 3-A tho

That….doesn’t have any bearing on the argument that was posted?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

That….doesn’t have any bearing on the argument that was posted?

He still couldn't copy Saitama tho

 

[Maitreya12]

The entire premise of this CRT is upgrading a character based on a assumptions plain and simple.

-There's no 3-A feat

-There's no 3-A lore/statement

Ergo I don't logically see why the character should be upgraded to 3-A.

^This too and saying "Saitama can adapt higher into 3-A than Garou can mimic" isn't a vaild explanation.

I think people keep getting confused on the intentions for this CRT.

This is not about upgrading Garou’s profile to 3A.

this is simply about Garou’s hax ability that allows him to copy someone who is 3A on a vs battle thread