Full Metal Alchemist Possible Upgrades

[Dark649]

The reason why i didn't proposed long ago is that its that its highest attack they withstood in the story and their alchemy didn't showcased as much as this ap wise, but i'm curious and neutral about the outcome to hear the response about this also since i previously noted the death battle video:

During the very near end of the manga, the party seemingly survives Father casual blast , though Alphonse [who's armor was not completely destroyed] tried to protect May while Hohenheim barely tried for Izumi. It's not the first time something similar to this happened as Scar's brother survivedan attack from Kimblee with the stone long enough to save him before dying, Edward did also withnessed an attack from Kimblee stone, but was injured by a simple constuction piece, although that falling could be lower than his current 9-B level. In a previous situation Edward could not recontruct a bridge, but that was because he lacked the material to do so.

Since in the verse, most everyone can fight and damage with eachother even with physical attacks the revision might be this:

At least 7-C+, likely 6-C: Depowered Father.

7-C+: Philosopher Stone Battle Users [Kimblee and Alphonse], Hohenheim, Pride, Father, Greed U.Shield, Lust U.Spear, Edward Last Carbon Fiber Automail.

At least 7-C: Izumi Offense, King Bradley, Greedling, Monster Envy, Sloth, Likely Armstrong [Since he physically fought Sloth], Oliver, Buccaneer, Pride Dura, Kimblee - May and Isaac alchemy [Alchemy users scales from the Doctor/Roy's and Alphonse who both hurt Monster Envy and Sloth with it].

7-C, higher with alchemy: Izumi Durability [The sin she bears is likely the cause of her lower dura], Lust Dura, Edward, Alphonse, Scar, Ling, Greed, Gluttony, Envy, Ryza's Equipment [since she shoot Barry, hurt Scar, Envy and the Bradley rejects], Fu, Lan, Barry, Slicer Brothers and the Chimera's.

Likely 7-C: For physically weaker char. like May since she was protected by Alphonse so its lower. Her weaker dura might scale physically to Roy [punched edward], Solf [def. likely 7-C dura] and Isaac since Roy tried to fight the Bradley rejects, its possible for the Mannequins to scale here [since they attacked Jerso, forced the others to dodge their bites and recovered from May attacks], not sure about Ryza and the other weak soldier physically.

Thanks to Kimblee Edward invaded Pride Soul, turned into a philospher stone and destroyed Pride, kind as NPI and Soul Destruction.

Lastly Good Lin and Greed should be added in the Verse page.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not well suited to evaluating this. It is better if you ask the experienced members listed in the Fullmetal Alchemist verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List. My apologies.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Yes, this is fine imo. Many of these characters are extremely talented in alchemy (Especially Ed) so I don't see why they don't scalen

 

[DMUA]

It's been awhile since I've seen Tier 7 FMA brought up, and even longer since I've watched through brotherhood, but I think it's generally fine from my remembering the arguments?

I don't think they should scale to Father, considering he was toying with them and even taking a bit of their attacks is more likely PIS then them being able to withstand a handheld sun exploding in their face

 

[Theglassman12]

this seems fine, forgot that they actually tanked the blast head on, could've sworn they just barely dodged.

Though I was meaning to ask. Shouldn't all the full blown Homunluli have type 8 immortality as they're also reliant on their philosopher stone being intact? As shown when Envy died when he broke his or when Lust died when hers evaporated?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Upgrading the entire verse based on an attack from Kimble that was done with the Philosopher's Stone and is above nearly every feat in the verse is a no-go to me.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think the rating seems fine.

 

[Dark649]

Looks fine for Type 8 Immortality since when an Homunluli once runs out of lives like what happened to Gluttony , he still lives though the philosopher stone and to that Father was able to re-create him.

Matthew its not only Kimblee's feats, but also Father's blast.

 

[Elizhaa]

Looks fine for Type 8 Immortality since when an Homunluli once runs out of lives like what happened to Gluttony , he still lives though the philosopher stone and to that Father was able to re-create him.

True; so, I agree that Type 8 Immortality should be fine too.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Ed's durability for his last automail should scale since he blocked a strike from Pride with it. We should also take into account that Ed and co survived the blast from father, they were heavily injured however they still survived. Also Ed should get some form of NPI and Soul Destruction as seen when he invaded Pride's soul.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

This is interesting, but i'll wait for more arguments before picking a side.

 

[Spinoirr]

Maybe it shouldn't scale unless they can harm the characters who lived said attack if it wasn't by something protecting them

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Another thing, I've heard Hohenheim has a feat of dodging or reacting to lightning in the Manga, is this true? I'm also thing we could use some feats from the anime since its canon to the manga.

 

[Epsilon_R]

I agree

 

[PaChi2]

Upgrading the entire verse based on an attack from Kimble that was done with the Philosopher's Stone and is above nearly every feat in the verse is a no-go to me.

Im with Matt here.

And scaling to Father in any way is a no-go.

 

[Dark649]

Another thing, I've heard Hohenheim has a feat of dodging or reacting to lightning in the Manga, is this true? I'm also thing we could use some feats from the anime since its canon to the manga.

Alchemy acts similarly to electricity as Edward indeed used it to cause a blackout against Pride, Hoheinheim seemed to a dodged an alchemy attack but its not the same speed wise as a thunderbolt. The chapters where there the cast is trying to outrun and reacting to alchemy attacks are 17 , 65 , 85 , 86 , 96 , 98 and 105 , so if there is a particular one you want to calc you can ask.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Nobody suggested anyone scaling to Father. For the Kimblee argument he can tank his own explosions, hell Edward survived a Philosophers Stone enhanced attack from Kimblee, the explosion isn't even what damaged him but rather him getting impaled by steel. Also there are quite a few town level feats coming from state Alchemists such as Kimblee.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do agree with Matt, but I don't think anyone suggested anyone scaling from Father. However, Kimblee is only powerful due to the Philosophers stone, and Edward did tank a blast, but he seems to have gotten much stronger at that point in time than previous. And he kind of lost all his powers to revive his brother is another heads up of the ending. So I think Edward having his end of series key return seems okay.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

The issue with that is that Kimblee can only be that strong via his Philosophers Stone. Something that all of the Homunluli have inside them and fuels their power. Now while i dont think it should scale to everyone it should still scale to the Homunluli in some regard ( I.E Pride's AP, Edwards's Automail, Greeds Shield, Lusts Spear, Ed's father, Father himself and Edward's durability. ) and yeah i agree, obviously Edwards BoS key but his key in the EoS and his MoS key should scale since MoS Edward is the one who tanked it.

 

[PaChi2]

Kimblee can be, you know, an outlier.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose that makes sense; though, it's also important to note that the scaling of FMA is pretty inconsistent.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Kimblee can be, you know, an outlier.

Kimblee has several low 7-C - 7-C feats. Not sure how its an outlier wherever it's pretty consistent for the explosion boy. Now as i said this shouldn't scale to everyone, only Edward, Scar, Al ( With the stone. ) Father and his Homunluli, State Alchemist with the stone and without the stone they'd scale to his low 7-C feat. You can't really argue that it's an outlier for the verse either since theres a low 2-C, low 5-B, 6-B and 6-C feats coming from the God tiers.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

I suppose that makes sense; though, it's also important to note that the scaling of FMA is pretty inconsistent.

I can settle with "At Least 8-C, likely 7-C+" for these characters. As for Father he should get a 6-C key for when he absorbed Trurth via Newton's Third law. His still has access to his sun attack in his depowered key but admitted that it's dangerous to use in this form so for that key it should only scale to one attack, not SS or durability. Also note, nobody scales to this Father.

 

[PaChi2]

I mean. If you wanna scale to Kimblee and his 7-C feats, why not scale to Father and his tier 6 feats, because both are well above the rest of the cast featwise.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Father does scale to his tier 6 keys, the difference is that nobody has ever fought Father in those keys and they didn't last long before he was weakened. Kimblee on the other hand has several town level feats and other characters have tanked his explosions. It's not above the rest of the cast feat wise. This a blatantly false Equivalency and rather dishonest. Kimblee has 3 solid low 7-C to 7-C feats, characters have fought him and tanked his explosions. Simple as that.

 

[PaChi2]

"Its not above the rest of the cast feat wise"?

I guess there are other people with tier 7 feats, then?

And I always wondered if Kimblee did tank any of his explosions or he had a way to avoid damage from them. Because those attacks would have killed him in any scenario.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think he meant scaling wise, not direct feat wise. As in Kimblee isn't a God Tier unlike Father.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

It doesn't matter if there are other people with 7-C feats. This is like me saying Ichigo isn't planet level because he doesn't have planet level feats or that Luffy isn't island level because he doesn't have any tier 6 feats. This type of argument is ludicrous and fallacious. Also Kimblee has tanked his explosion while standing in the epicenter of the blast, not to mention Alchemy follows the rules of Newtons Third law. Energy is involved in the usage of Alchemy, borrowing energy produced by the earth and using it as a weapon. I.E KE.

 

[PaChi2]

It doesn't matter if there are other people with 7-C feats. This is like me saying Ichigo isn't planet level because he doesn't have planet level feats or that Luffy isn't island level because he doesn't have any tier 6 feats. This type of argument is ludicrous and fallacious.

It actually does. That's consistency.

Luffy is island leven because there are plenty of tier 6 or 7+ feats in OP, so it is consistent.

Here we have: Father (tier 6 feats and God Tier), Kimblee (Tier 7 feats), Everyone else (tier 8-9 feats). And you want to scale almost everyone to the single character with tier 7 feats.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

PaChi please stop using fallacious strawman arguments and false Equivalencies. Kimblee has three feats in the tier 7 range, Alchemist without the aid of any outside sources have causal High 8-C feats. Also Father isn't the god tier, The Truth is the God tier who's low 2-C. Father has several tier 6 feats and even a tier 5 feat. Also you are 100% twisting up my argument and suggesting I'm attempting to scale everyone to 7-C, whenever I explained that not to be the case. First of all this would only scale to Father and his goon, State Alchemist with the use of Philosopher Stones, Ed's father, Scar, Al with the stone and Edwards keys for his MoS and EoS keys. The other characters would either scale to High 8-C. Also the high 8-C feats are extremely causal and happen in the BoS. I'm not sure if your purposely attempting to twist my argument to make it seem that everyone scales to 7-C or if you just misunderstood something or you lack context, regardless I dont appreciate the strawman.

 

[PaChi2]

Dude, Im just going by the OP.

According to thr OP even the slicer brothers and Barry are 7-C.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Here, let me fix the OP's argument for scaling. Give me a moment and I'll post what it should look like.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, I said Father is A God Tier, not The God Tier. I know Truth is Tier 2 and The God Tier, but Father is still Top Tier far above the cast. Kimblee is just High Tier and could scale to quite a few characters if they're portrayed as being his equal.

 

[PaChi2]

I could concede Philosopher's stone amped people scaling to Kimblee. This includes Honenheim for obvious reasons.

Also Pride, Lust's spear and Greed's shield.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Father with the Truth Absorbed: At Least 6-C ( Casually created a mimi sun in his hand with ease. ) this would scale to his SS, Durability and AP. nobody scales to this Father


Weakened Father: At Least 7-C+ ( Still far superior to the likes of Kimblee and his children ), Possibly 6-C via mini sun ( Stated that he could still create his mini sun although it would be dangerous in this state.) 6-C only applies to this one attack and doesn't scale to his SS, normal AP nor durability


Hohenheim: At Least 7-C+ ( Fought against a weakened Father and blocked multiple of his attacks. )


Edward Elric: At Least 7-C+ ( Fought and defeated Father in his weakened state, tanked a point blank explosion from Kimblee, blocked a strike from Pride. )


Pride: 7-C+ ( Stated to be the most powerful homunculus, should be superior to the likes of Kimblee )


Alphonse: At Least 7-C+ with a Philosopher stone ( Fought against Pride and Kimblee on even ground upon using the stones power )

Wrath: 7-C+ ( effortlessly slaughtered Greed in their first bout, managed to over power Greed-Ling, Lan Fan, Fu and almost defeated Scar if not for the solar eclipse. )


Scar: Likely 7-C+ ( Managed to briefly keep up with a injured Bradly and managed to harm him. )

Greed-Ling ( Blocked strikes from Pride, fought with Wrath briefly and injured him. Destroyed Wrath's Ultimate eye. )


Roy Mustang: 7-C ( killed Lust and Envy albeit enraged at the time. )


The other Homunculi: 7-C ( Should be superior to Kimblee due to possessing Philosopher stones as apart of them. )


Kimblee: 7-C via a Philosopher Stone ( Insert calc here )


Keep in mind, this only scales to Mos and EoS characters, BoS characters would scale to wall level for fodder while state Alchemist such as Edward scale to High 8-C.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looking at the NarutoForums blog, it seems that they questioned the 7-C high end and it looks like the 8-A ends were the more accepted results. But other than that, the list above looks pretty good.

 

[PaChi2]

I can say that scaling directly Homunculi to Kimblee because of having a philosopher stone is iffy since the 7-C feats were done through alchemy and none of the Homunculi have shown the ability to perform it or to rivalize its potency physically.

But this goes to Envy, Wrath, Greed, Sloth. I mean in AP. Gluttony... Maybe via his stomach.

Pride is fine since Al had to boost himself in order to fight Pride and Kimblee. And he consumed Kimblee anyway.

The others Im not sure they scale in AP to Kimblee. Its like comparing different engines fueled by the same substance.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Nah, Gluttony probably shouldn't scale, his false Gate is BFR and durability negation. Which ones do you think shouldn't scale? Envy in his monster form should scale at the very least and roy should via Flame Alchemy but not in terms of durability since Lust almosted killed him. Out off all the characters I've listed Roy is likely the most questionable but he did kill Lust and stomped Monster Envy with his Flame Alchemy which is some of the strongest alchemy in the series.


Also the anime is canon so someone should calculate some feats. Issa's freezing should be impressive, Roy vaporizing a large portion of the ice and Armstorm destroying a decent amount of the ice. Also Bradly cutting a tank round in half.

 

[PaChi2]

>The anime is canon.

Huh. First time hearing it.

Anyway, let's go:

Envy and Lust shouldnt scale because they were killed by a non-amped Roy Mustang. Kimblee performed his feats using the Philosopher's stone, therefore, Roy Mustang without a stone should not scale. Lust's spear should, tho.

Sloth is the same basis only this time its Armstrong and co.

(Note that Im using Alchemy as a cutting measure).

Bradley and Greed/Greeling:

Greed's shield should scale.

But I dont think any of the two should scale physically (AP wise) to Kimblee. Both are humans imbued with Philosopher stone, which gave them superhuman physical characteristics above the rest. So... At most I could buy a "At least, possibly 7-C".

Scat bypasses durability with his destruction ability iirc.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

FMA Brotherhood is indeed one of the most faithful Manga to Anime adaptations of all time, but it's still secondary canon at best with Manga being the primary canon.