Frick this sense of Deja vu

[Udlmaster]

Allow me to first say Welcome to another day in Hell, I am your host, Satan!

Anyway, now the Tiering System is changed, WoD needs to be updated.

Firstly the Infinite dots, the first Dot being 3-D (self-explanatory) the next being able to manipulate Platonic objects and turn things into their Platonic representations.

Since I want this to be over and done with, the Archmages will change from 1-A to "1-B, at most High 1-B" to demonstrate the range of which they can achieve power.

Next is the Angels, the beings who created the entire verse under the guidance of the ELOHIM, they would be "1-A" existing beyond the Spheres of the Mages and having created them when they made all creation.

We know this because the source for all Arcana is the Supernal realms, each of which transcends the last, so yet another infinite hierarchy.

Then we have the ELOHIM at High 1-A, who are beyond Platonic conceptio and are aspects of the One Giver, and as such Supersede the very fundamental nature of the verse on all levels, as they would be credited (or the Angels would be) creating the One, Two and Three.

Then we have the One Giver who is above all this, being incomprehensible to the ELOHIM, and existing beyond the One, Two and Three, as they would have been made by the ELOHIM or Angels.

And so after much consideration and suggestion from others, I've chosen to promote Tier 0 The One Giver.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeet

 

[Ultima_Reality]

heck

So, can you post the full scans explaining the whole Dot stuff? If it isn't too much of a bother of course.

A screenshot of the full page this paragraph comes from would also be nice.

 

[Udlmaster]

heck

So, can you post the full scans explaining the whole Dot stuff? If it isn't too much of a bother of course.

A screenshot of the full page this paragraph comes from would also be nice.

Sure, the scan about the Platonic stuff is literally split between two pages which is why it starts off half way through and causes me on end of pain because it's incomplete, here's the other half and the book it is in is the 20th anniversary edition of Mage so you can verify that it is literally split between two pages and I'm not making it up:

https://i.imgur.com/CMfiDfQ.png

If you're not happy with how it forces machines to function like Platonic machines, moving one dot up Mages turn themselves into a Smei-Supernal (So Semi-Platonic Truth) form, which was what gave them Type 1 Abstract existence:

https://i.imgur.com/cheTGj6.png

It doesn't really change much as the gap between them doubles each time, so the gap between 2 and 3 is double 1 and 2.

As for that paragraph I've been able to refind it again, here's the full context:

https://i.imgur.com/6RNvW6z.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lZHG505.jpg

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't really see anything that makes Dots into an hierarchy of qualitatively superior levels here, especially since, from what I've read, they seem to be mostly points showing how potent one's magic is, though you can obviously correct me on that one.

Anyhow:

First scan seems more like some low-level Conceptual Manipulation, since it describes Mages forcing machines to reflect their platonic ideals and thus function 100% perfectly due to that.

Second scan seems like a Type 1 Abstract Existence / Non-Corporeal state which Mages can briefly access to heal themselves, which is just decent hax.

Now, the stuff about the Supernal Realms being an Infinite hierarchy seems like in-universe speculation and theorizing, and the text itself points out that most Mages heavily debate on that shit, so I'd wager it can't be reliably used, at least not without a "possibly" on the profiles, or something of the sort.

Existing "beyond manifest conception" also isn't exactly the most useful descriptive here.

 

[Udlmaster]

I don't mind having the possibly there.

The reason that they're superior is because the lower versions will automatically lose to higher tier magic, each magic is a dot/sphere/arete.

Arete on a few occasions (as you know) is literally stated to transcend categorisation and limitation, now, not to say Tier 0, but to say that in comparison to the lower tier, each should be beyond the lowers categorisation and limitation, which logically makes much more sense.

A dot 1 cannot categorise or limit a Dot 2, which is infinitely more logical.

The reason why they would be superior is because the potency difference, we know every time a dot goes to the next level it is at least twice as strong, as the gap between each is double the last, so this would show to us that it is quantitatively superior each time, and we know that difference, as above it's a Platonic difference.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Although, after thinking about it for a little while, I don't know if even a "possibly" is doable, since the whole thing about infinite realms is speculation by certain Mages and the books don't go too in-depth on that, as far as I've seen.

Being beyond categorization and limitation would most likely only apply to "Arete" when it is defined as a cosmic force, and Mage: The Awakening itself states that there is no consensus as to what it truly is, with some Mages believing it to be the World-Soul, while others believe it is the heart of an individual's internal genius, so I don't think this can be reliably used, either.

Meanwhile, Arete defined as a system used to denote a Mage's progression of power and access to higher spheres of magic is more aligned to the literal greek word than anything else: Rising your "Arete" is just a metaphor that refers to realizing one's own personal excellence or purpose, and becoming progressively more enlightenened to other spheres of magic. It pretty much denotes the extent of a Mage's influence over reality through wisdom and self-knowledge, as opposed to steps of an infinite hierarchy of planes / size / qualitatively higher power, and it most certainly doesn't refer to an hierarchy of cosmic "Aretes" that are each transcendent and unknowable in relation to the last.

Furthermore, from what I read, "Dots" can refer to literally everything and are used as a general statistic for certain attributes. They can be used to denote willpower, even. So the thing about "the first dot is 3-D" doesn't seem to hold either.

As I've said before, this scan only shows that Mages can force objects to reflect their platonic ideals in order to make them function at total efficiency. That's arguably just low-level Conceptual Manipulation, and even then it's not applicable for combat, as it only affects the efficiency of objects, not their durability or anything else, as pointed out by the scan you posted in the OP.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Although, after thinking about it for a little while, I don't know if even a "possibly" is doable, since the whole thing about infinite realms is speculation by certain Mages and the books don't go too in-depth on that, as far as I've seen.

Actually, they would exist, it wouldn't be a possibly, The Supernal realm contains all truths as Platonic truths and The Abyss contains all lies as Archetypal lies, this means that there is two scenarios which have the same result in the end:

The theory is true and therefore the Supernal realms are an infinitely transcending hierarchy.

The theory is false but exists within the Abyss resulting in there still being a infinite hierarchy which just exists within the Abyss.

Both of these result in the infinite hierarchy.

>Being beyond categorization and limitation would most likely only apply to "Arete" when it is defined as a cosmic force

This will definately need to be backed up by a statement that the statement about it being beyond categorisation and limitation only applies to one aspect of Arête.

In the statement I gave in the OP about Arête it states it's all of them (Interpretations) because it transcends being categorised.

>Rising your "Arete" is just a metaphor that refers to realizing one's own personal excellence or purpose

It's not a metaphor, it's a tangible thing which once it reaches 10 allows the Mage to become Transcendent.

Additionally, in the scan I provided it literally states : "Arête serves to measure a mage's raw mystical power."

Magical power literally comes from Arête itself.

>Furthermore, from what I read, "Dots"

Dots is the name I give them, I call it the "Dot scaling" because all levels in WoD are represented by dots, and it's easier to say on a Mobile phone than spheres, which also gives the wrong connotation, as the Spheres relates to the types of Magic (Entropy, Time, Matter etc.).

>So the thing about "the first dot is 3-D" doesn't seem to hold either.

The basis of the first spell tier (The first dot) being 3-D comes from the default we arrive to when there is no scaling for something, we defaultly assume that it is baseline 3-D, if you want to say its weaker, then that makes the gap between them even higher, from X dimensional to Platonic as a jump.

>As I've said before, this scan only shows that Mages can force objects to reflect their platonic ideals in order to make them function at total efficiency.

Yes, if it becomes and functions like a Platonic object would, as it would function as a perfect representation of all possible, impossible and so forth versions of the thing it represents, then that would result in the object having to perform Platonically, which would be High 1-B or above, as it would include the variations which function in higher dimensions, and if you say that there are no higher dimensions, then it would still act like it would in higher transcendent dimensions because it would come under it's impossibilities.

>and even then it's not applicable for combat,

I'm not using it as a basis for combat though, I'm using it as a basis for the level of power/output.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, I should note, I'm not scaling all "dots" to the Spell tiers, if you'll take a look at the Mummy page, even though they too use magic and have dots, I'm not scaling them to the Mages, because each section (Strength, Dexterity etc.) all have their own scaling, I wouldn't scale True Naming from Mummy to Fate sphere from Mage.

Which I think was your confusion that I was scaling all dots to each other, which is definately not what I'm doing.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, I've gotten a lot of requests for this so notifying the whole 1 person following this thread, I'm now advocating after a lot of pressure to go for Tier 0 ToG

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I agree with this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am on Ultima's side 100%.

 

[Udlmaster]

I am on Ultima's side 100%.

Which part?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

All of it.

 

[Lapsad]

Yes,TOG is much possibly become Tier-0, according her staement which predate all creation and the tellurian it just a merely her fragment power , furthermore for her transduality type 4 to make her become " incomprehensible being " in the viewpoint of Elohim

 

[Udlmaster]

Yes,TOG is much possibly become Tier-0, according her staement which predate all creation and the tellurian it just a merely her fragment power , furthermore for her transduality type 4 to make her become " incomprehensible being " in the viewpoint of Elohim

The ELOHIM are fragments of her power, these beings who Created the Angels who created all aspects of the Tellurian and possibly many more Tellurians, but the text on if there are multiple Tellurians isn't too clear.

The One Giver is vastly above anything else in the verse with even the ELOHIM not even being able to enter her presence without dying immediately and her plans for creation being so transcendent that when told it would erase some ELOHIM.

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

I'm uncertain if she deserves promotion to tier 0. That category is reserved strictly for omnipotent (as in the case of Azathoth, Kami Tenchi, the writer, the creator, the Amaranth, and TOAA) and nigh omnipotent (as in the case of Yog, Fetherine, Gan, Anu, and TLoI) characters. The nigh omnipotent ones (formerly high 1-A's) can have minor weaknesses, but they are supposed to be unbeatable by anything other than another tier 0 (ex; only someone like the creator can destroy Featherine). They should be completely invincible to anything that's not tier 0. Looking at her profile, I see no evidence that she cannot be destroyed by any 1-A character with Regenerationn negation on a true godly level. It seems like Ren Fuji could defeat her. Nigh boundless tier 0s can only be destroyed by either other nigh boundless tier 0s (in which case the matches are banned because it would be too difficult to determine a winner) or true boundless tier 0s (in which case the matches are banned because it's a stomp). Looking at her profile, it looks like she can be beaten by someone other than a tier 0, so I caution against this.

 

[Udlmaster]

She is completely untouchable to all things within the verse.

It goes so far to debate the Omnipotence paradox (The Stone paradox) and literally states how she is beyond such.

This is even backed up when creation as new all things were all things, all things contradicted each other and lived in perfect harmony.

To go on deeper, not just statements and such, the Angels, Low 1-As transcend the Infinite Arête dots, where each dot difference is double the last dot difference, which are tiers of power.

Then the ELOHIM who not only transcend that and the Angels but also the Supernal Realms, of which there would be an infinite amount each transcending the last, each one having the difference between them be the Dot system, as each would produce a more transcendent aracana.

Then above all that you have the Umbra, which has a myriad of realms with the Epiphanies literally not even being able to be understand from the perspective of your transcendent mind which is transcending the infinite mountains of Umbral concepts where all thoughts exists as truths.

This all contained within the Tellurium and is transcended by the ELOHIM, as each Guarden is likely (but not confirmed) to be a Tellurium, which each ELOHIM has and made, and Jehovah not only nearly destroyed his own but all other Guardens when he was mad at Lilith.

Then these guys cannot be in the presence of the One Giver and cannot even be told her plans.

Like I said, her plans were so complex and transcendent it would destroy the ELOHIM. These High 1-A beings.

And again, I should note, Even the Storyteller is below the One Giver, she is beyond the Author and so on.

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

So she is nigh omnipotent and true godly Regenerationn negation wouldn't harm her? She does sound like she's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY beyond most tier 1-A's. When I stumbled upon her page initially, I considered her one of the most powerful characters on this wiki, right up there with Meng Hao (Post Immortal Ascension), and I was actually hoping to have a match between them one day since they seemed like 2 of the strongest 1-A's around. That said, I didn't consider her to be completely immortal and invincible to any non tier 0 character, just really, really, really hard to defeat even by the strongest of tier 1-A's. Are you telling me that not even the most powerful and versatile 1-A's could defeat her even with absorption and true godly Regenerationn negation (two things I don't see her listed as being resistant to)?

 

[Udlmaster]

True-Godly regen negation wouldn't work on her, her ELOHIM existed in the True Void before all things which reduces thing to something less than nothing and attacks existence itself.

The Angels (Who do have True-Godly regen) were the only ones who suffered there as they "burnt" in the True Void.

So, her fragments were totally immune to things which negates True-Godly.


As for Absorption, yeah, the Supernal realms are specifically noted to (if the Archmage doesn't have a high enough Gnosis) to absorb their concept and erase their existence.

Even the Angels would be beyond absorption, and then there's the Absorption spells which simply would not work on the ELOHIM let alone the One Giver.

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

Those should be added to her profile. With that, she sounds unbeatable to anyone other than tier 0's. She should be comparable to Featherine and Yog-sothoth, though again, matches between tier 0's are only allowed in the Fun and Games board, since truly omnipotent ones like TOAA and Azathoth would stalemate each other since they were both completely impossible to destroy and they would be stuck at it forever or until they got bored and realized how pointless the fight would be since there would be no winner, and nigh omnipotent ones like her and Featherine are both so ungodly powerful that determining a winner between the two of them would be considered too difficult and would inevitably lead to an inconclusive result, and placing nigh omnipotent ones against true omnipotent ones results in a curbstomp.

 

[Udlmaster]

Why do you consider her to be Nigh-Omnipotent? In the verse she is only ever considered to be Omnipotent and they go so far as to say she's beyond the Omnipotence paradox.


Like, why is she weaker then TOAA of all beings?

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

True omnipotence is when you can do literally anything at all with no limits even if it makes no sense, like making a squared circle, making a block even you can't lift and than lifting it anyway, destroying yourself beyond a state even you can return from and than returning anyway, and so on. Some fictions like the suggsverse may have beings who are said to be "above omnipotence", along with similar OC characters you may find on Joke Battles wiki or the FC/OC wiki, but technically, the only way a character can be truly perfectly omnipotent is if they can do anything period and there is nobody stronger than them in-verse. The only way a character can be able to beat true omnipotents lie TOAA or Kami Tenchi, is for them to be a fan made character who is explicitly said to be beyond even those characters. You would have to write something down like "is stronger than TOAA", and from there, it becomes an endless upward spiral of creating stronger characters.

Nevertheless, the one thing we can agree on is that she is tier 0. Having weaknesses listed on her profile is what makes me view her as nigh omnipotent instead of truly omnipotent. No truly omnipotent character has any weaknesses. That's irrelevant, though. You have made your point, I agree with her being tier 0. You have my support.

 

[Udlmaster]

It's no different than Azathoth's weakness, who I'm guessing is "True Omnipotent" to yourself.

And, she does "lift the rock too heavy for her to lift", like I said, the verse goes out of it's way to tell you how she is beyond the Omnipotence paradox, which is the Unliftable rock thing.

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

Hmm. So she's a true omnipotent than. Up there with Azathoth, TOAA, Kami Tenchi, the creator, the writer, the amaranth, the Undoubtedly First, the author avatar of the suggsverse, and U-DO. In that case, she should be one of the most powerful characters in all of fiction barring fan made characters like the kind you would find on Joke Battles wiki.

 

[Udlmaster]

For all those reading, while I do not agree with the logic Frieza Force is using, I am trying to gone one to understand my view point using a Devil's advocate argument.

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

And I see how even by that logic she could be considered omnipotent. She sounds invincible.

 

[Antvasima]

You should preferably ask Ultima to comment here again. It is largely up to him if this goes through or not.

 

[Udlmaster]

You should preferably ask Ultima to comment here again. It is largely up to him if this goes through or not.

I speak to him a little on discord, I've chosen to let him focus on covering his verses first and he can come back here at his leisure.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we need his help with several of the tier 1 verses.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, we need his help with several of the tier 1 verses.

Yeah so it's best to let him come back when he's ready.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

k so i'm back

Actually, they would exist, it wouldn't be a possibly, The Supernal realm contains all truths as Platonic truths and The Abyss contains all lies as Archetypal lies, this means that there is two scenarios which have the same result in the end:

The theory is true and therefore the Supernal realms are an infinitely transcending hierarchy.

The theory is false but exists within the Abyss resulting in there still being a infinite hierarchy which just exists within the Abyss.

Both of these result in the infinite hierarchy.

I can see where your argument is coming from, especially with that book on in-universe mystical traditions stating that knowledge and symbols both come from the influence of the Supernal being diluted down unto the Fallen Reality.

Although I am still unsure, especially given how disconnected the two statements are, and how it itself contradicts the scan you posted on the OP that describes the Supernal Realms as being "nigh-infinite" in number and corresponding more to platonic truths than anything else, so rating them as a hierarchy feels rather strange to me.

It's not a metaphor, it's a tangible thing which once it reaches 10 allows the Mage to become Transcendent.

Additionally, in the scan I provided it literally states : "Arête serves to measure a mage's raw mystical power."

Magical power literally comes from Arête itself.

Yeah, I guess I worded it poorly. What I wanted to say was that "rising your Arete" has more to do with becoming enlightened to greater forms of magic by realizing one's own inner purpose and excellence, which comes in different forms for every individual. Of course it is related to the cosmic force which mages theorize Arete itself to be, but not in the sense that it allows Mages to continuously transcend into greater "Aretes" that each stand above conceptualization in relation to lesser ones, as you are implying is the case here, that's misinterpreting what it is supposed to be mean in the first place.

Rather, I'd just interpret Arete itself as a force that remains constant throughout a Mage's evolution, and is just perceived by them in continuously deeper, internal levels of consciousness that increase their magical power as they mentally evolve. By that, I basically mean that Arete transcending categorization (which is an extremely vague label that I don't think can be used for tiering by itself anyways) is an attribute that seems to moreso refer to a single, unified force that is just perceived in different degrees as a mage becomes more and more enlightened, rather than a full-blown, contrived hierarchy of different levels of existence that each transcend the last or whatever.

Interpreting it like the the latter requires more than a few mental gymnastics, especially since the level of Arete above a Sleeper in the game itself is "Initiated", and transcendence proper is only achieved at the maximum in-game level of it, as you've pointed out yourself.

Dots is the name I give them, I call it the "Dot scaling" because all levels in WoD are represented by dots, and it's easier to say on a Mobile phone than spheres, which also gives the wrong connotation, as the Spheres relates to the types of Magic (Entropy, Time, Matter etc.).

Ah, okay then. Although, is there any evidence pointing towards the dots forming an infinite hierarchy of power? I'd like to see that.

Yes, if it becomes and functions like a Platonic object would, as it would function as a perfect representation of all possible, impossible and so forth versions of the thing it represents, then that would result in the object having to perform Platonically, which would be High 1-B or above, as it would include the variations which function in higher dimensions, and if you say that there are no higher dimensions, then it would still act like it would in higher transcendent dimensions because it would come under it's impossibilities.

Except that the scans themselves say that this ability doesn't affect the resilience or overall physicality of the objects, and only serves to improve their efficiency to the maximum. It clearly doesn't skyrocket them to higher levels of existence or anything of the sort.

Besides, with the new tiering system, our standards on Platonic Forms and how to treat them became a lot more rigorous. If you want them to qualify for 1-A or anything close, you are going to need actual, proper evidence and showings that they encompass -all- levels of space and time regardless of scale, rather than just your word on that, or else we'd just call it a textbook NLF based on insufficient evidence and tier them based on what the verse itself showcases in its structure.

Likewise, I'd like to see a scan from WoD stating that Platonic Forms contain "all possible and impossible variations" of their particulars or whatever, if such a scan exists of course, that'd be really helpful.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Udlmaster]

>the scan you posted on the OP that describes the Supernal Realms as being "nigh-infinite" in number and corresponding more to platonic truths than anything else

Well, the theory being true would just be it's own truth/lie, it wouldn't have to be consecutively true, so it wouldn't contradict the account that a Supernal realm contains Nigh-infinite Platonic Truths.

>Arête part

We know that there is a gap between each arête tier, as a Mage Of 1 Arête cannot cast 2nd Tier spells, they don't have the magical power & intelligence to do so.

So because of this it structures itself as a hierarchy of power due to its very nature.

The gap of which can be measured in a sense by the difference between the start and end.

Dot 1 is just 3-D while Dot 2 has the ability to have things function like it's Platonic representation.

>Interpreting it like the the latter requires more than a few mental gymnastics, especially since the level of Arete above a Sleeper in the game itself is "Initiated"

Sleepers simply do not have Arête, not even an Arête of 0, they just simply don't have a rating.

>Although, is there any evidence pointing towards the dots forming an infinite hierarchy of power?

If you mean the idea that they can keep going above 5, then that comes under the unspoken rule of Tabletop games, and that's that the levels don't stop.

For example, D&D only lists up to level 20, but goes on further and lets you go on further, 30 is the place where the game stops holding your hand and you're on your own from there.

Same thing goes for here, you can go up to 10 but the game stops holding your hand and you can carry on, on your own:

I did however ask this question to the Co-Founder of Whitewolf, and he gave the generic answer that it's up to the Storyteller how high they can go, but they can go to infinite if the Storyteller chooses too.

For reference, all Supernatural beings can literally become the Storyteller, so in game Arête can go on for infinity just as a possibility.

>Except that the scans themselves say that this ability doesn't affect the resilience or overall physicality of the objects, and only serves to improve their efficiency to the maximum.

And that's fine, it doesn't have too, for example, Goku's power was able to reach into the 4 dimensional levels without changing his physiology, only his output/efficiency.

Same here.

>If you want them to qualify for 1-A or anything close, you are going to need actual, proper evidence and showings that they encompass -all- levels of space and time regardless of scale, rather than just your word on that, or else we'd just call it a textbook NLF based on insufficient evidence and tier them based on what the verse itself showcases in its structure.

We already know they do, as we specifically see in the Supernal realms scan that the Platonic Truths give meanings to the Platonic concepts which govern all aspects of the Fallen Reality.

So yeah, they do affect all of reality.

>Likewise, I'd like to see a scan from WoD stating that Platonic Forms contain "all possible and impossible variations" of their particulars or whatever, if such a scan exists of course, that'd be really helpful.

Besides the fact that Platonic concepts are literally the culmination of every variation of the thing it represents and what we see are just imperfect representations of it.

The Abyss is the opposite to the Supernal, it contains are lies and impossibilities as Archetypal lies.

As a 4th/5th Tier Mage you can actively cast a Platonic concept into the Abyss, turning it into the Archetypal lie.

Meaning they are both two sides of the same coin, the Platonic Truths and the Archetypal lies are merely the same thing dependent on its location, so yes, the impossibilities just exist in a different place but they both culminate to be the same thing.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Well, the theory being true would just be it's own truth/lie, it wouldn't have to be consecutively true, so it wouldn't contradict the account that a Supernal realm contains Nigh-infinite Platonic Truths.

That's not what the scan says. It states that there is a nigh-infinite amount of Supernal Realms, each of which represent a platonic truth, not that each supernal realm contains nigh-infinite platonic truths. The statement "a nigh-infinite collection of platonic truths" is referring to the whole subject of the matter (the Realms), as opposed to individual objects implied by the phrase.

We know that there is a gap between each arête tier, as a Mage Of 1 Arête cannot cast 2nd Tier spells, they don't have the magical power & intelligence to do so.

So because of this it structures itself as a hierarchy of power due to its very nature.

It is a hierarchy of power, I agree to that, but you have presented no evidence that there is a qualitative difference between each level outside of guesswork, or at least that's what I see.

Dot 1 is just 3-D while Dot 2 has the ability to have things function like it's Platonic representation.

See below, I guess.

I did however ask this question to the Co-Founder of Whitewolf, and he gave the generic answer that it's up to the Storyteller how high they can go, but they can go to infinite if the Storyteller chooses too.

For reference, all Supernatural beings can literally become the Storyteller, so in game Arête can go on for infinity just as a possibility.

Wouldn't this fall under something akin to game mechanics, though? Not necessarily Arete itself, mind you, but the idea that it can go on for infinity, especially since the game itself puts a strict cap on it, and that's what we should primarily follow, imo.

I am not sure if you can even do that? Going to the authors for the purposes of asking VS Related questions just makes it all the more likely for it to be rejected.

And that's fine, it doesn't have too, for example, Goku's power was able to reach into the 4 dimensional levels without changing his physiology, only his output/efficiency.

"Power" is the keyword here. Goku is physically 3-dimensional, but he has displayed/scales to Low 2-C levels of power regardless of that. Meanwhile, you have presented no evidence that the ability itself makes random objects under its effects infinitely more powerful than their regular states, and the scans themselves just say that they will work at maximum efficiency when under it, nothing more and nothing less, because that's what it does, it "perfects" them. The text even notes that the objects' durability won't actually change, and that a perfected rock tumbler will still break under sufficient damage.

So the Burden of Proof is upon you here, and unless you bring up evidence of the contrary, I don't see that being relevant.

We already know they do, as we specifically see in the Supernal realms scan that the Platonic Truths give meanings to the Platonic concepts which govern all aspects of the Fallen Reality.

So yeah, they do affect all of reality

I never denied that they affected all of reality, what I asked was for some tangible, explicit evidence that they can qualify for the new requirements for 1-A. As in, proof that they govern and exist beyond all extensions of infinite / uncountably hierarchies, because otherwise they'd just be ruled over NLF and scale to however big the verse in which they exist is, as I've already said.

I am aware that if we choose to take Platonic Forms at face value and at their highest interpretation they'd be 1-A or higher anyways, but there needs to be some good evidence supporting them being this high beyond "they are platonic / plato and his works mentioned", as with any Tier 1 verse.

Besides the fact that Platonic concepts are literally the culmination of every variation of the thing it represents and what we see are just imperfect representations of it.

As I've said, that's extremely vague and not enough evidence for anything near 1-A unless further context is shown, so that'd be just considered a NLF / hasty generalization until further notice.

 

[Udlmaster]

>That's not what the scan says. It states that there is a nigh-infinite amount of Supernal Realms, each of which represent a platonic truth, not that each supernal realm contains nigh-infinite platonic truths. The statement "a nigh-infinite collection of platonic truths" is referring to the whole subject of the matter (the Realms), as opposed to individual objects implied by the phrase.

Not really, the part about the "Supernal realms" relates specifically to them being "not as people think of them", it then goes to say "but a nigh-infinite collection of Platonic Truths, each informing an aspect of the fallen reality."

It's not saying each realm is informing only one aspect each and only has 1 Supernal truth, as that's contradicted directly by the verse's interpretation where the Mages theorise that there's an infinite amount, it's saying each realm is a collection of Nigh-infinite Platonic Truths, as that is the interpretation which the verse accepts as I said above, your interpretation actually goes against what the verse thinks.

>It is a hierarchy of power, I agree to that, but you have presented no evidence that there is a qualitative difference between each level outside of guesswork, or at least that's what I see.

The third tier spell which allows them to assume a Supernal form, or become a Platonic truth giving meaning to a Platonic concept.

That's the gap.

>Wouldn't this fall under something akin to game mechanics, though? Not necessarily Arete itself, mind you, but the idea that it can go on for infinity, especially since the game itself puts a strict cap on it

No, not really, literally every character in WoD can become the Storyteller and say if there is infinite Arête or not.

It's more akin to everyone being the Luminous being from D&D, and the Co-Founder said there were no limitations.

>I am not sure if you can even do that? Going to the authors for the purposes of asking VS Related questions just makes it all the more likely for it to be rejected.

It's actually not a VS related question, I actually only asked him if given infinite EXP could one have infinite Arête, and he said functionally, yes.


>Power" is the keyword here.

It's not just power, Muh infinite androids and all. It's literally just output, which is what the spell effects, it doesn't have to change the durability or physiology as with the Goku example, Lower dimensioned beings can output higher dimensional power.

So when it acts like the Platonic Gun, it would include the guns which were made by the 4th to 8th dimensional beings and even higher, it's output would include this.

>As in, proof that they govern and exist beyond all extensions of infinite / uncountably hierarchies

You mean like the Infinite hierarchy of Arête? Because you did just agree that Arête was a hierarchy of power.

>As I've said, that's extremely vague

It's the definition of what a Platonic concept is in general,

We know from previous threads on this that WoD is explicitly talking about real life Platonism, which Assault and multiple others agreed on, that it was the same.

Given the fact that the book's idea of what a Platonic concept is, is predicated on the reader knowing what it is proves this, and so does the way it not only states things like that, such as the Cave Analogy, but also

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Not really, the part about the "Supernal realms" relates specifically to them being "not as people think of them", it then goes to say "but a nigh-infinite collection of Platonic Truths, each informing an aspect of the fallen reality."

It doesn't, though, as that only paragraph is specifically referring to the Supernal Realms as a whole, and not individual ones; it's basically stating that the realms as a collecive are not actually places, but a near-infinite conglomerate of platonic truths that each define an aspect of physical reality. If the text meant otherwise, it'd make that a lot clearer and say something along the lines of "a Supernal Realm is not a place as mortals think of it, but a near-infinite collection of platonic truths".

It's not saying each realm is informing only one aspect each and only has 1 Supernal truth, as that's contradicted directly by the verse's interpretation where the Mages theorise that there's an infinite amount, it's saying each realm is a collection of Nigh-infinite Platonic Truths, as that is the interpretation which the verse accepts as I said above, your interpretation actually goes against what the verse thinks.

There being an infinite amount of supernal realms is clearly not an universal interpretation throughout the setting and the scan itself never elaborates or goes too in-depth about it besides saying that it is heavily debated among Mages, so I wouldn't call it the primary interpretation which the verse uses for the cosmology, especially since a good chunk of WoD is anything but set in stone, as far as I've seen anyways. That just sounds like cherry-picking to me.

The third tier spell which allows them to assume a Supernal form, or become a Platonic truth giving meaning to a Platonic concept.

That's the gap.

Those are just abilities that happen to be Conceptual Manipulation, not enough evidence that each succeeding level of Arete gives you power completely transcendental over lower levels.

No, not really, literally every character in WoD can become the Storyteller and say if there is infinite Arête or not.

It's more akin to everyone being the Luminous being from D&D, and the Co-Founder said there were no limitations

That seems fair, at first glance, although assuming that and the levels of Arete being qualitatively above one another is a valid interpretation (which I still doubt), I could see there being a "potentially 1-A" in the profiles or something along those lines.

It's not just power, Muh infinite androids and all. It's literally just output, which is what the spell effects, it doesn't have to change the durability or physiology as with the Goku example, Lower dimensioned beings can output higher dimensional power.

I meant "power" as in Attack Potency, which is primarily what tiering is all about. As the text themselves defines it, the objects affected by the spell don't become any more powerful, and only start to mimick their platonic form in the sense that they will start to work perfectly, and at maximum efficiency (i.e a meat blender will start making perfect blends, and a watch will start measuring time at maximum precision). So far, I haven't seen any evidence that they become infinitely more powerful besides your interpretation of it, which contradicts the text itself, it seems.

So when it acts like the Platonic Gun, it would include the guns which were made by the 4th to 8th dimensional beings and even higher, it's output would include this.

Proof of that? As in, explicit evidence from the text itself that the gun would become infinitely greater in potency, besides the word "platonic" being used, which really doesn't mean much in this context, as I've explained.

You mean like the Infinite hierarchy of Arête? Because you did just agree that Arête was a hierarchy of power.

Yes, and you haven't provided actual evidence that each gap between levels of Arete represent a qualitative difference in power.

We know from previous threads on this that WoD is explicitly talking about real life Platonism, which Assault and multiple others agreed on, that it was the same.

I am not asking for evidence that it is talking about real life Platonism, becase that's irrelevant in the context of the current tiering system. I am asking for explicit evidence or actual implications that said platonic forms actually encompass and transcend infinite hierarchical levels (Besides the Arete scale, as you've yet to provide evidence for it qualifying for any tier) in-verse, or have influence equivalent to such, and that's about it.

I say that because scaling of this type should be carefully analyzed and have some good evidence backing it up beforehand. It's roughly the same reasoning behind why we don't just default to rating any character stated to be FTL at High 3-A and give them Immeasurable Speed just because that's how it would work on a realistic context.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Supernal realm part


But again, this interpretation can not exist as it directly contradicts introduced theories. Because remember, all the books are said from the Author's perspective so it cannot be that the Author is introducing elements which contradict what was establish if we go with your interpretation.

If we go with my own, then they both exist without contradiction, which gives my interpretation the most credence than yours, and again, I already went over the wording aspect on how the Realms part only refers to the first part of the sentence and then goes on to describe the Supernal realm's features.


>There being an infinite amount of supernal realms is clearly not an universal interpretation throughout the setting and the scan itself never elaborates or goes too in-depth about it besides saying that it is heavily debated among Mages

How it was something that was brought up by the Authors, if it held no credence then the Omniecient Author would have debunked it like it does with Arête, so it's not like it doesn't debunk wrong theories anyway, because it does and the fact it gives a spotlight to this theory again gives it credence.

>Those are just abilities that happen to be Conceptual Manipulation, not enough evidence that each succeeding level of Arete gives you power completely transcendental over lower levels.

Well, let's think of it like this, to become a Platonic concept you would assume all aspects and variations of the thing you represent, so, when the Mage does this they assume the form of say Circle, that means all circles in the verse from 11-A to 1-A are now within the Mage while they're the Form of Circle.

The arête 3 allows them to do that while Arête 2 cannot, that would be our gap, that Arête can push a person from being physically 10-B to Low 1-A/1-A.

>That seems fair, at first glance, although assuming that and the levels of Arete being qualitatively above one another is a valid interpretation (which I still doubt), I could see there being a "potentially 1-A" in the profiles or something along those lines

Im happy to meet in the middle ground here and agree with a possibly.

>So far, I haven't seen any evidence that they become infinitely more powerful besides your interpretation of it, which contradicts the text itself, it seems.

Again, the text says that's it doesn't change the durability but it does state it becomes 100% efficient and that it becomes a physical representation of its Platonic ideal, not that's it mimics it. And so yes, the output is what is changed and is the only thing which matters here, because it's output can become higher dimensional, the fact that the durability doesn't change doesn't matter.

>Proof of that? As in, explicit evidence from the text itself that the gun would become infinitely greater in potency

Because that's is the output/efficiency that would change, because the gun becomes w physical representation of the Platonic gun.

As with the example you gave above, the Platonic Gun would shoot out the Perfect bullet which would as per the definition of Platonic include all variations of the thing it represents.

>which really doesn't mean much in this context, as I've explained.

Platonic does matter, a lot as the Text specifically states it "becomes the physical representation of the Platonic ideal of the machines".

>Yes, and you haven't provided actual evidence that each gap between levels of Arete represent a qualitative difference in power

See above for that I guess.

>I am not asking for evidence that it is talking about real life Platonism, becase that's irrelevant in the context of the current tiering system. I am asking for explicit evidence or actual implications that said platonic forms actually encompass and transcend infinite hierarchical levels (Besides the Arete scale, as you've yet to provide evidence for it qualifying for any tier) in-verse, or have influence equivalent to such, and that's about it.

If you mean if you want me to see if there's another Infinite Hierarchy which the Platonic concepts would govern, then I can find one, but it's just not what I am currently scaling them to.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

But again, this interpretation can not exist as it directly contradicts introduced theories. Because remember, all the books are said from the Author's perspective so it cannot be that the Author is introducing elements which contradict what was establish if we go with your interpretatio

There is nothing really "established", though, or at least there do exist things that are not. As far as I've read, WoD introduces a plethora of different beliefs and philosophies held by various kinds of Mages, and even the relatively impersonal narrator of Mage: The Awakening almost never actually weighs on any of them and leaves it up to the reader to decide, it seems. At the end of the days these are just theories, and can be contradicted, especially when they directly clash with actual descriptions of the very thing they are theorizing about.

and again, I already went over the wording aspect on how the Realms part only refers to the first part of the sentence and then goes on to describe the Supernal realm's features.

There is no indication that this is the case, especially when you consider that the entire introduction of the paragraph is referring to the Realms as a collective, and the fact that a period is put after it, which fairly obviously indicates that this part is talking about the same thing: The fact that the Realms aren't actual places but platonic truths which together form a near-infinite conglomerate.

Again, if they wanted to say each Supernal Realm contained infinite platonic truths, they'd word it differently, something like "the Supernal Realms are not places as mortals think of them, but near-infinite collections of platonic truths". Either that or something like what I worded in my previous post.

Well, let's think of it like this, to become a Platonic concept you would assume all aspects and variations of the thing you represent, so, when the Mage does this they assume the form of say Circle, that means all circles in the verse from 11-A to 1-A are now within the Mage while they're the Form of Circle.

Again, provide some reliable evidence from the verse itself that Platonic Forms actually govern and transcend all forms of space and time or infinite hierarchies of existence in a way that can qualify for 1-A. If all of your evidence is just "they are platonic so they contain all possible and impossible variations of whatever", then that's extremely vague and nowhere near enough to qualify for the tier. At the very least give some implications that they would qualify, if explicit statements going for it aren't avaliable.

The arête 3 allows them to do that while Arête 2 cannot, that would be our gap, that Arête can push a person from being physically 10-B to Low 1-A/1-A.

Again, that's just an ability which they gain the capability to use once they become more enlightened, and is not necessarily an indicative that they become transcendentally more powerful or anything of the sort. You could say it's literally just hax, even, and is not really any different from any level system in other games, the only difference here is that WoD has a canon explanation for it.

Of course, if you have any other scans proving me wrong on that matter, then I am all ears.

Again, the text says that's it doesn't change the durability but it does state it becomes 100% efficient and that it becomes a physical representation of its Platonic ideal, not that's it mimics it. And so yes, the output is what is changed and is the only thing which matters here, because it's output can become higher dimensional, the fact that the durability doesn't change doesn't matter.

Except that the text itself only states that the efficiency of the objects are perfected, and nowhere is it stated that they become infinitely stronger outside of unfounded assumptions of yours that contradict what the text itself says. If anything, if the objects truly became representations of every possible and impossible permutation of them, then their durability would also logically have to change alongside everything else, but the text itself states that it doesn't, and that they just start to work perfectly, and... nothing else. So that puts a sizeable hole in your interpretation of the ability.

I am aware that this is an argument from ignorance, but as far as I see, the Burden of Proof is entirely on you here, and as of yet you still haven't provided any actual evidence beyond your word here.

If you mean if you want me to see if there's another Infinite Hierarchy which the Platonic concepts would govern, then I can find one, but it's just not what I am currently scaling them to.

Yeah, pretty much. If there's no infinite hierarchy for said concepts to scale to, or if It isn't explicitly stated or clearly implied that they'd govern an area of equivalent size even if it didn't exist in the verse, then they don't have enough evidence backing up them qualifying for 1-A, and thus they'd need to be quantified based on however big their domain in the verse is.