For Your Consideration: A Massive Rework of the Supernatural Willpower Page

[SheevShezarrine]

As it stands, our current page for Supernatural Willpower is functional, but very brief and rather vague. This is understandable, as the ability is by nature rather vague, due to a good degree of subjectivity inherently involved in the concept of willpower; one's own willpower is in no small part influenced by their own perspective. For many years, this prevented us from even having an ability page for it at all, and the vagueness of the ability still irks some to this day.
Take, for instance, this thread on the Rocky verse, which got somewhat derailed by people arguing the minutae of the ability, and where the line could possibly be drawn between Supernatural Willpower and impressive but realistic showings of will. The point being, that Supernatural Willpower is vague to the extent that establishing a baseline to it is essentially impossible, and that you basically just know it when you see it.
However, what if I told you that a good amount of vagueness can be taken out of the equation, and that Supernatural Willpower can be codified to a much more comprehensive degree than it is currently? I present to you: an entirely new draft of the Supernatural Willpower page.
In brief, I will summarize the major points of the page/improvements it makes over the current:

• a hard barrier is defined between high but realistic willpower and outright Supernatural Willpower
• the ability is split into types, based on general characteristics displayed
• the inherent vagueness of the concept of willpower is more directly addressed than on the current page, with examples and characteristics given to provide a more clear notion of what constitutes a "strong" or "high" but realistic willpower
• the ability is finally given a limitations section, and an exhaustive one at that
• the "Supernatural Willpower Users" category is added to the Categories section, so one can more easily search for exemplar users of the ability, as opposed to having to leave the page and manually navigate the categories list

While larger, site-sweeping revisions of content are understandably a pain in the ass, I urge the site staff to seriously consider helping refine and then implement this new form of the page, as I am firmly of the mind that this is a massive improvement upon the power as it exists currently on this site.

 

[Da3ggman]

What did you have in mind for the difference between Peak Human and Supernatural Willpower?

 

[Deagonx]

Given that this constitutes a change to site standards, this has to be a staff discussion. I will move it now and ask that non-staff members refrain from commenting further without staff permission.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

What did you have in mind for the difference between Peak Human and Supernatural Willpower?

I make the distinction in the sandbox draft, but the most basic and tangible difference is that the Supernatural Willpower can surpass the natural limits of the body and mind and achieve things that are neurologically and physiologically impossible, whereas "peak human" willpower is bound by those limits on account of being something people can achieve irl. They can push themselves to their breaking point, but it is impossible to go beyond it.
For example, an untreated arterial dissection will cause unconsciousness within 15 to 30 seconds, and death within 90 to 180 seconds. If a character can have their arm chopped off and keep going for several minutes without so much as putting a rag over the stump, then that's bona fide Supernatural Willpower

 

[KLOL506]

Wonder where the Assassin's Creed dudes would fall in this new version of Supernatural Willpower (Specifically the Hybrids).

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Wonder where the Assassin's Creed dudes would fall in this new version of Supernatural Willpower (Specifically the Hybrids).

Idk, what sort of abilities does theirs grant them?

 

[KLOL506]

Idk, what sort of abilities does theirs grant them?

Mostly feats they've demonstrated for themselves (Like powering through bullet wounds to the chest that would kill most people near instantly and doing strenuous parkour moves throughout), snapping out of fatal stab wounds (Without medical aid) and getting back up as if nothing happened (And then healing them afterwards), so on and so forth.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Then I'm assuming Rocky wouldn't qualify, correct?

One can't just shrug off heat exhaustion or heat stroke, either, as it directly impacts the body's ability to metabolize and to maintain homeostasis to such a degree as to require immediate medical treatment. However, Adonis was able to shrug off heat exhaustion without medical treatment, thus he qualifies for Type 1.
Rocky was able to will himself out of the symptoms of his cavum septum pellucidum, which isn't something one can do irl, thus he qualifies for Type 2

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Mostly feats they've demonstrated for themselves (Like powering through bullet wounds to the chest that would kill most people near instantly and doing strenuous parkour moves throughout), snapping out of fatal stab wounds (Without medical aid) and getting back up as if nothing happened (And then healing them afterwards), so on and so forth.

Higher end of Type 1. For a similar example, Denji from Chainsaw Man was stabbed through the heart as a normal human and continued attempting to flee, including struggling vigorously, even though such a stab should have dropped him pretty much on the spot

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Not really sure what each type would be here, so I’m just leaving the respective albums for Megami Tensei’s show of Supernatural Willpower.

Shin Megami Tensei’s.

Persona’s. And again.

 

[KLOL506]

Higher end of Type 1. For a similar example, Denji from Chainsaw Man was stabbed through the heart as a normal human and continued attempting to flee, including struggling vigorously, even though such a stab should have dropped him pretty much on the spot

Well for my example, Rodrigo stabs Ezio in his stomach and leaves him to bleed to death, but a few minutes later he wakes up ready to fight at full power again, no medical aid needed, calling it as something his armor blunted off.

Then, during the Siege of Monteriggioni a few days later, he gets shot through his shoulder and abdomen yet again, suffers a 4-storey fall and is then not only ready to fight at full capacity, but also parkours through the Auditore crypt before passing out (After recuperating in Rome, the doctor there tells him he cannot heal his wounds with medicine, he can only dull the pain while his body does the healing on its own).

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Well for my example, Rodrigo stabs Ezio in his stomach and leaves him to bleed to death, but a few minutes later he wakes up ready to fight at full power again, no medical aid needed, calling it as something his armor blunted off.

Then, during the Siege of Monteriggioni a few days later, he gets shot through his shoulder and abdomen yet again, suffers a 4-storey fall and is then not only ready to fight at full capacity, but also parkours through the Auditore crypt before passing out (After recuperating in Rome, the doctor there tells him he cannot heal his wounds with medicine, he can only dull the pain while his body does the healing on its own).

That seems to still be a very impressive example of Type 1, plus a bit of Regeneration. If he's essentially forcing himself to regenerate as opposed to it being an inherent part of his physiology, then that could fall under Type 7 - Other.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Not really sure what each type would be here, so I’m just leaving the respective albums for Megami Tensei’s show of Supernatural Willpower.

Shin Megami Tensei’s.

Persona’s. And again.

The Persona ones I've read so far are solidly Type 5 and probably Type 6 as well

 

[KLOL506]

That seems to still be a very impressive example of Type 1, plus a bit of Regeneration. If he's essentially forcing himself to regenerate as opposed to it being an inherent part of his physiology, then that could fall under Type 7 - Other.

Well, it doesn't have much to do with his physiology rather than his extreme stubborness so I guess Type 1 would do.

I assume Ezio would serve as a decent example for Type 1?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Well, it doesn't have much to do with his physiology rather than his extreme stubborness so I guess Type 1 would do.

I assume Ezio would serve as a decent example for Type 1?

Yes, he's a good example

 

[Chariot190]

I present to you: an entirely new draft of the Supernatural Willpower page.

swap the caesar example out for Bruno, Diavolo straight up notes him not immediately dying after having his torso and spine blown out, heart ruptured and overall just completely ****** up was due to force of will

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The Persona ones I've read so far are solidly Type 5 and probably Type 6 as well

Reading it over, 3, 4, 5, and 6 are applicable. Forgot to add, but merely having the potential to wield a Persona no-sells the infinite amount of information and minds within the Collective Unconscious.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Reading it over, 3, 4, 5, and 6 are applicable. Forgot to add, but merely having the potential to wield a Persona no-sells the infinite amount of information and minds within the Collective Unconscious.

In that case, they are firmly in 3 as well, and at practically the highest bounds of it no less. I'm assuming that the Personas are pretty much their will made manifest in an astral form, similar to JoJo Stands?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

In that case, they are firmly in 3 as well, and at practically the highest bounds of it no less. I'm assuming that the Personas are pretty much their will made manifest in an astral form, similar to JoJo Stands?

Ya, it is. In the second folder, they come back from being erased off sheer willpower. Pretty sure that’s type 4.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

swap the caesar example out for Bruno, Diavolo straight up notes him not immediately dying after having his torso and spine blown out, heart ruptured and overall just completely ****** up was due to force of will

How about I just put the JoJo logo as the cover image since basically everyone in the verse except Holly has at least one type and usually to an exemplary degree

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree with having types, it's just complicating a fairly simple ability. I can see the purpose for it though. What I more staunchly disagree with is the concept of "peak human" willpower, that is completely impossible to define, you rightfully say that it's difficult to tell what is or isn't superhuman willpower, but by applying this you make the issue much worse.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Ya, it is. In the second folder, they come back from being erased off sheer willpower. Pretty sure that’s type 4.

That's a combination of 4 and 6, with probably a bit of 5 sprinkled in for flavor since they are reactively rebounding from an ability that worked on them and gaining the ability to null it

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I disagree with having types, it's just complicating a fairly simple ability. I can see the purpose for it though. What I more staunchly disagree with is the concept of "peak human" willpower, that is completely impossible to define, you rightfully say that it's difficult to tell what is or isn't superhuman willpower, but by applying this you make the issue much worse.

Vague highly subjective ability with characteristics that can vary wildly by verse and author =/= simple

And how is "peak human" willpower impossible to define, seeing as it is by its very nature hard-capped by the physiological limits of the human body?

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, he's a good example

Neat.

 

[Armorchompy]

And how is "peak human" willpower impossible to define?

Like, when does it start. Is fighting with a broken arm for ten minutes superhuman? how about one minute? how about one hour? so on so forth

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Like, when does it start. Is fighting with a broken arm for ten minutes superhuman? how about one minute? how about one hour? so on so forth

Have you not read the draft at all?

And for your example, depends on whether or not an irl human is capable of it. It being physiologically impossible irl is the hard limit that separates immense but realistic will from Supernatural Willpower. Iirc, I already went over this with you in the Rocky thread

 

[Armorchompy]

... I have, thank you very much. You detail examples of IRL willpower but that does not explain where a feat stops being just good stamina and falls into the field of "Peak Human Willpower". You don't really explain what stops being "peak human" and starts being "superhuman", although that can at least be inferred.

I continue to disagree.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I disagree with having types, it's just complicating a fairly simple ability. I can see the purpose for it though.

Same I agree with this as well, there's too many supernatural ways of strong willpower feats that trying to tier it will be too complicated and confusing especially when you assume which willpower feat/type is more potent then the other

It should just clarify that it has different ranges kinda like the soul manipulation page does

 

[SheevShezarrine]

... I have, thank you very much. You detail examples of IRL willpower but that does not explain where a feat stops being just good stamina and falls into the field of "Peak Human Willpower". You don't really explain what stops being "peak human" and starts being "superhuman", although that can at least be inferred.

I continue to disagree.

In physically strenuous situations, good stamina and strong will are inextricably linked, will in that context is what pushes someone to dig deeper and deeper into their energy reserves despite difficulty continuing to mount up. "Peak human" (in quotations as it's considerably more accurate but far less succinct to phrase it as "the strength of will required for an irl individual to push themselves to their physiological limit and stay there until no longer required or until they die") willpower is the ability to do such to fullest extent possible within context for the irl human form. And I did explain in summary where really strong irl human will ends and where Supernatural Willpower begins:
"human willpower is still inexorably bound by the limits of the body, and the chemical and structural limitations of the brain. Supernatural Willpower, however, allows one to exceed their physiological limits, to varying degrees and to varying effects"
Thus I must ask if you paid much attention while reading, and maybe even whether you came here intent on disagreeing, as you've essentially been acting as though I have offered exceptionally little elaboration or justification, and have been rehashing arguments that were already discussed in a previous thread.
What's more, it's this vagueness (the "impossibility to define" that you claim) and the confusion that it causes concerning the lower bounds of Supernatural Willpower that prompted this proposed rework in the first place.
Thus to be honest it comes across as incredibly dismissive of you, regarding both the issues of Supernatural Willpower in its current state, and of my efforts to at least somewhat rectify them, for you to unflinchingly rehash previous arguments and insist that the page has no cause to be improved

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Same I agree with this as well, there's too many supernatural ways of strong willpower feats that trying to tier it will be too complicated and confusing especially when you assume which willpower feat/type is more potent then the other

It should just clarify that it has different ranges kinda like the soul manipulation page does

Many of the most common/prominent varieties are listed, and there is an "Other" Type that can be used to fill in the blanks. It's not all that complicated

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Supernatural Willpower is an ability that allows a character to persevere through physically and mentally adverse conditions that should be far past what they could reasonably withstand.

Also this is classifying a small portion of supernatural willpower, it's not just about enduring but having strong enough willpower to do something that's supernatural. Could be something like being able to create fire via pure strength of you willpower or even change their own body structure

So I personally thing it should be reworded a little

some of the most common varieties are listed, and there is an "Other" Type that can be used to fill in the blanks. It's not all that complicated

Which still are listed with an assumed potency
For example why is

• continue acting while unconscious

A higher tier than

• resist possession

Plus many more

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Also this is classifying a small portion of supernatural willpower, it's not just about enduring but having strong enough willpower to do something that's supernatural. Could be something like being able to create fire via pure strength of you willpower or even change their own body structure

Those are both addressed in the page

So I personally thing it should be reworded a little

Which still are listed with an assumed potency
For example why is

• continue acting while unconscious

A higher tier than

• resist possession

Plus many more

It's not a higher tier, it's a different type, same as how Type 6 Immortality isn't a higher tier than Type 5. It's only directly considered "higher tier" compared to Types 1 and 2, which were already established as basically being the most simple of the Types and pretty much the baseline of Supernatural Willpower.
I admit however that the wording could cause confusion and give the impression of it being "higher tier" so that will be amended.

 

[Armorchompy]

"human willpower is still inexorably bound by the limits of the body, and the chemical and structural limitations of the brain. Supernatural Willpower, however, allows one to exceed their physiological limits, to varying degrees and to varying effects"

Yeah I'm sorry that just isn't quantifiable, I think this will just cause more confusion.

Thus I must ask if you paid much attention while reading, and maybe even whether you came here intent on disagreeing, as you've essentially been acting as though I have offered exceptionally little elaboration or justification, and have been rehashing arguments that were already discussed in a previous thread.
What's more, it's this vagueness (the "impossibility to define" that you claim) and the confusion that it causes concerning the lower bounds of Supernatural Willpower that prompted this proposed rework in the first place.
Thus to be honest it comes across as incredibly dismissive of you, regarding both the issues of Supernatural Willpower in its current state, and of my efforts to at least somewhat rectify them, for you to unflinchingly rehash previous arguments and insist that the page has no cause to be improved

I mean I dunno what you want me to say, sorry you feel that way but I still disagree though

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Also this is classifying a small portion of supernatural willpower, it's not just about enduring but having strong enough willpower to do something that's supernatural. Could be something like being able to create fire via pure strength of you willpower or even change their own body structure

So I personally thing it should be reworded a little

Would this work better?

Supernatural Willpower is an ability that allows a character to, as the name suggests, use their sheer force of will to manifest supernatural abilities. In more basic usages, it allows one to survive physical and/or mental adversities and conditions that should disable or even outright kill them, and that the bounds of willpower in our real world would be helpless against. However, far more dramatic effects are possible. Due to the concept of willpower having much basis in individual perspective while also having a near-universal presence in human activity, this ability can manifest in a plethora of different ways, and in some instances serve as a basis or even the basis of a verse's power system, for example as a "fighting spirit".

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Yeah I'm sorry that just isn't quantifiable, I think this will just cause more confusion.

How? Sheev gave a pretty blatant explanation differentiating "Peak Human Willpower" and Supernatural Willpower.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Would this work better?

Much better, I think just needs to be more simplistic and shorter as I think there's unnecessary details? As the texts below it are the ones that's supposed to clarify the ability in more detail but yee

 

[Armorchompy]

How? Sheev gave a pretty blatant explanation differentiating "Peak Human Willpower" and Supernatural Willpower.

Yeah but I don't think that really changes the issue of "you're making it harder to figure out where any specific feat goes", how am I gonna figure out if someone managed to exceed their physiological limit or not in any specific feat (unless it's super obvious)? Just because you add more details it doesn't make it easier to pick, in fact the fact that you're splitting the power into multiple categories makes it harder.

Thus I must ask if you paid much attention while reading, and maybe even whether you came here intent on disagreeing, as you've essentially been acting as though I have offered exceptionally little elaboration or justification, and have been rehashing arguments that were already discussed in a previous thread.

Also I noticed this specific bit, two things:
1) Random asked me to comment, i literally wouldn't have even seen this otherwise and I would have just gone on with my life without giving a shit
2) If you're gonna keep taking my disagreement in bad faith and imply I'm biased I'm gonna stop making the effort to try and see your perspective, dig in my heels and force you to try and get other staff, since I don't really have much love for that kind of accusation and I don't exactly get paid to sit here and listen to it

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Yeah I'm sorry that just isn't quantifiable, I think this will just cause more confusion.

Not quantifiable? Sorta kinda true to an extent, but depends on the means of measurement. For example, an untended and severe arterial bleed will cause unconsciousness within a minute, and death within 5. Holding out to the longest possible duration of consciousness would require quite a lot of force of will, but pushing past that, going to 2, 3, 4 ,5 minutes and still being up and at 'em is where it gets to Supernatural.

 

[Armorchompy]

Not quantifiable? Sorta kinda true to an extent, but depends on the means of measurement. For example, an untended and severe arterial bleed will cause unconsciousness within a minute, and death within 5. Holding out to the longest possible duration of consciousness would require quite a lot of force of will, but pushing past that, going to 2, 3, 4 ,5 minutes and still being up and at 'em is where it gets to Supernatural.

In some situations sure but not only are there more factors to consider than that (if someone is fighting they'd pass out faster), but a lot of feats just can't have that sort of analysis done.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

May need to take a look at this later. This is a lot to read and not yet understand what the OP is proposing.