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Fist of the North Star General CRT
- Thread starter Silvervigilant
- Start date
- Status
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@Antvasima
1. I was referring to Twellas's skill document that puts all the top-tiers at Extraordinary Genius (and gives them a ton of feats) while even a bunch of the bottom-tier people are still probably Genius according to the doc IIRC.
2. There are so many Jagi nuke calc blogs that I've honestly lost track, but here are some: The current one, a high-ball Deviantart one, and the low-ball one. It's hilarious and weird how this went from the biggest FoTNS feat by a notable margin to being just the baseline for low-tier fodder.
3. We haven't decided which of the Soryu Tenra feats to use yet.
4. IIRC we're now leaning in favor of Kenshiro's FTL feats but I don't know enough about that (but it seems to be legit).
5. Good lord, we got so many Goten Sho calcs to look at. Here's the list:
5a. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:KLOL506/RaohCalc
5b. Of course, there's this, and IIRC @Twellas said that he felt like it was best to use the 2100 meter range and that he believed that both the 1/34.3 second and the 1/220 second could be used since given Raoh's speed both speeds were probable.
5c. For this page (https://www.deviantart.com/kirito352/art/Raoh-s-Goten-Sho-Hokuto-no-Ken-788465006), I found the values for adding the split in both the low-end and high-end calcs on the page, AND I found the values if the used speed is 1/34.3 seconds and 1/220 seconds. As I've stated before, they are:
Low-End size (2000 meter thick cloud), 1/34.3 seconds: About 178 gigatons (Large Island Level) for just the hole, 1.314 teratons (Small Country Level) including the split
Low-End size (2000 meter thick cloud), 1/220 seconds: About 7.27 teratons (Just above baseline Country Level) for just the hole, 56.37 teratons (Country Level+) including the split
High-End size (8000 meter thick cloud), 1/34.3 seconds: About 533.88 teratons (Large Country Level+) for just the hole, 3.941 petatons (Continent Level+) including the split (although if this were accepted then 30% Raoh would probably just upscale to baseline Multi-Continent Level since the gap is so small and 30% Raoh >>>> the near-dead Raoh who did the Goten Sho)
High-End size (8000 meter thick cloud), 1/220 seconds: About 21.96357 petatons (Multi-Continent Level) for just the hole, 161.14565 petatons (Still Multi-Continent Level) including the split
Just for fun, I also found the results for the speeds that the Deviantart calc itself used, but added the split:
Low-end size: 317.447 gigatons (Large Island Level)
High-end size: 14.76 teratons (Country Level)
1. I was referring to Twellas's skill document that puts all the top-tiers at Extraordinary Genius (and gives them a ton of feats) while even a bunch of the bottom-tier people are still probably Genius according to the doc IIRC.
2. There are so many Jagi nuke calc blogs that I've honestly lost track, but here are some: The current one, a high-ball Deviantart one, and the low-ball one. It's hilarious and weird how this went from the biggest FoTNS feat by a notable margin to being just the baseline for low-tier fodder.
3. We haven't decided which of the Soryu Tenra feats to use yet.
4. IIRC we're now leaning in favor of Kenshiro's FTL feats but I don't know enough about that (but it seems to be legit).
5. Good lord, we got so many Goten Sho calcs to look at. Here's the list:
5a. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:KLOL506/RaohCalc
5b. Of course, there's this, and IIRC @Twellas said that he felt like it was best to use the 2100 meter range and that he believed that both the 1/34.3 second and the 1/220 second could be used since given Raoh's speed both speeds were probable.
5c. For this page (https://www.deviantart.com/kirito352/art/Raoh-s-Goten-Sho-Hokuto-no-Ken-788465006), I found the values for adding the split in both the low-end and high-end calcs on the page, AND I found the values if the used speed is 1/34.3 seconds and 1/220 seconds. As I've stated before, they are:
Low-End size (2000 meter thick cloud), 1/34.3 seconds: About 178 gigatons (Large Island Level) for just the hole, 1.314 teratons (Small Country Level) including the split
Low-End size (2000 meter thick cloud), 1/220 seconds: About 7.27 teratons (Just above baseline Country Level) for just the hole, 56.37 teratons (Country Level+) including the split
High-End size (8000 meter thick cloud), 1/34.3 seconds: About 533.88 teratons (Large Country Level+) for just the hole, 3.941 petatons (Continent Level+) including the split (although if this were accepted then 30% Raoh would probably just upscale to baseline Multi-Continent Level since the gap is so small and 30% Raoh >>>> the near-dead Raoh who did the Goten Sho)
High-End size (8000 meter thick cloud), 1/220 seconds: About 21.96357 petatons (Multi-Continent Level) for just the hole, 161.14565 petatons (Still Multi-Continent Level) including the split
Just for fun, I also found the results for the speeds that the Deviantart calc itself used, but added the split:
Low-end size: 317.447 gigatons (Large Island Level)
High-end size: 14.76 teratons (Country Level)
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Can you:
1) Summarise all of the relevant genius or extraordinary genius level intelligence feats here please?
2) List all of the current wiki calculation blogs that still need to be evaluated?
3) Copy-paste all of the other relevant HnK calculations and their visual evidence to another wiki blog, so we can ask to get them evaluated as well?
1) Summarise all of the relevant genius or extraordinary genius level intelligence feats here please?
2) List all of the current wiki calculation blogs that still need to be evaluated?
3) Copy-paste all of the other relevant HnK calculations and their visual evidence to another wiki blog, so we can ask to get them evaluated as well?
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1. It's @Twellas 's blog, so he can do a much better job than me.
2. I mean, didn't I just list them? Are you saying you want a list of just the wiki ones?
3. Maybe, but I'll have to do it later.
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-Having mastered around 300 martial arts (applies to everyone in the verse)
-Mastering a martial art (Hokuto Shinken) that not even people who have mastered said 300 martial arts could use efficiently
-Having approximately 2000 years worth of combat experience
-Being able to literally bend fate with skill alone
-Being able to master a martial art in all of its aspects after seeing it once, even martial arts that scale to Hokuto in complexity
-Being able to know everything about that martial art's history and function after seeing it once
-Being able to instantly come up with a technique that power-negs the opponent's
-Being able to recognize a person off of the percentage of bodily acid contained within a single sweat drop
-Having like, 4 forms of skill-related precognition
-Being able to visualise every single possible blind spot an opponent could possibly have
-Being able to stealth through buildings full of martial artists
There's more, which I wrote on the document along with all the context
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Okay.
Yes, that is correct. We only use wiki calculation blogs nowadays.
Okay. Thanks.
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Thank you. I suppose that seems fine then.
I unfortunately do not have the time to properly read your document.
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Well, i know that this will not be able to convince you but, i found this wikipedia page and there's this segment about the Nyoninzo and This is said. and they also used the Fist of the North Star X Fist of the Blue Sky Guidebook as source, and while reading SNK, it gave the impression that it was supossed to be the same ritual that Kenshiro did (but that's just me) But even if we consider that they both did a different ritual, i don't see how this would put Kasumi above Ken in any way. Also if we assume that they both did a different ritual, we will have to get rid of Summoning for Kenshiro, since Kasumi only used that technique thanks to his ritual, and we never have seen Kenshiro do it. We also would need to get rid of the resistance to Hokuto based pressure point attacks to Kasumi, since Ken only gained that thanks to his ritual, and we never have seen Kasumi having something similar or even talk about that, granted he never fought another Hokuto master after the ritual, but still, if you belive that they did different rituals there's no reason to belive that they gained the same abilities. I personaly belive that it was the same, it's just that the HNK just only mention Shuken. Also both rituals gave a power boost to both Ken and Kasumi
Koryu never said that. Well Koryu was trained under by Tenshin (Kasumi's father) and alongside Ryuken (Kasumi's brother) i think that it's very unlikely that he never heard nothing about such a legendary fighter as Kasumi.
Yeah, you're right i don't think it's usable for the wiki, but i don't think that the guy was lying tho, he even gave the pages where it was stated.
I would but it's very hard to find avalible to sell in my country and the few ones that i found are super expensive.
Well he did not had Anryu Tenha, his Matoki was not even as strong Juukei's if we go by feats, Liu was not a "Majin" and Liu got deafeated by Kasumi before Kasumi even did it the initiation ritual. Meaning that Kasumi beat him without the need of a power boost.
Well it doesn't really say that Ryuken is as powerful as Kaioh, since Kaioh listed as 5 in power while Ryuken is 4, but this i quite different from the statement in HNK X SNK Guide, since this one takes things like strength, looks, charisma and ect... to account. In HNK X SNK Guide it seems to be a fullbown statement by WOG.
The manga itself>guides and WOG regardless, yeah if the manga contradicts the WOG, then yeah we have to give priority to the manga, but there's nothing in the manga that contradicts HNK X SNK Guide, in HNK they give more credit to this notion, and in SNK, nothing contradicts this too (i'll talk about that later)
Well in a fight between 2 equals Hokuto fighters, every technique should come in hand
About Kasumi obtaining the fullest for of Hokuto. When the Taoist said that, he was talking about the initiation ritual, and yeah the initiation ritual grants knowlege about Hokuto Soke and Hokuto Shinken at it's fullest, it also grants knowlege about all of the previous users, so he likely learned the previous masters techniques, but none of them had mastered MT, and even then MT cannot be mastered just by view.
You can say that Kasumi had the fullest form of Hokuto at the time, but there's nothing that confirms that he mastered MT. You also seemed to agree that Kasumi did not mastered MT.
Also in Lengends Revive the only ones that have a MT models are Ken and Raoh not Kasumi.
Well if Kasumi used MT at will at least one time, we would have 100% proof that he mastered MT. But since he never did that, we do not have.
That comparasion doesn't make much sense, Soryu Tenha is a technique that can be teached to others successors, while MT can't be teached. so there's much more chance of Kenshiro learning ST than Kasumi "learning" MT. not to mention that we've know that Kenshiro learned the Tenha Kassatsu, a technique invented by Kasumi, so i don't see why Ken would not have learned the Soryu Tenha.
There is context. When the Taoist said that, he was talking about the initiation ritual, and yeah the initiation ritual grants knowlege about Hokuto Soke and Hokuto Shinken at it's fullest, it also grants knowlege about all of the previous users, so he likely learned the previous masters techniques, but none of them had mastered MT, and even then, MT cannot be mastered just by view.
You seemed to agree with the Revive statement about Raoh a while ago. Also where do the Revive statement contradtics the manga ?
Look, i think we have more important things to do here in this thread, so i will not discuss this with you forever. that said i will give my reasons for why i think that Ken should scale above Kasumi (or at least be comparable)
Ken's stated to have become the strongest man in Hokuto, not only by Raoh, but quite possibly by the WOG
Raoh after obtaining MT was stated to have suparssed Hokuto's power itself, Hokuto Legends Revive is supervised by Hara himself, and Hara said that is very faithfull to the manga
Kenshiro mastered MT and gained immunity to Hokuto arts, something that's very not clear for Kasumi. and without those, Kasumi would certainly lose a fight against Ken.
Kenshiro surpassed Kaioh, and Kaioh was able to fight Shachi (possessed by the goddess of Hokuto) to a standstill. and even tho, you don't agree with me on this, i'm not the only one who interpreted this feat in this way. so it's not like i'm the only one making this up.
There's only 2 statements that say that Kasumi is the strongest man of Hokuto, and you said that, those statement retcons the fact that Kenshiro is the strongest, but it's not like that.
The first statement is Ryken saying that Kasumi was the most powerful man of Hokuto, well it's pretty clear that this doesn't retcon Kenshiro being the most powerful, since at the time Ryuken said that, Kenshiro was just a newborn, and Kasumi was infact the strongest at the time. As far as i recall Ryuken didn't even did the initiation ritual. Also i just want to correct something that you said earlier about Ryuken.
You said "i know that Ryuken stated that no master before him had done it, but he's just wrong, he also said nobody achieved it at all and we know for a fact Kasumi did, invalidating his statement as a whole" but i only found him saying that no one had mastered MT. He never said that nobody achieved it at all, he only said himself didn't. So this not invalidate his statement.
The second statement is The Taoist saying that Kasumi is the strongest man of Hokuto. The Taoist is treated as some sort of omniscient entity in SNK (although i don't remember all of his omniscience feats) the thing is that, The Taoist himself said that he could not read Hokuto users destiny so he probably was not able to say if other Hokuto man would surpass Kasumi, but at the time, he knew that Kasumi was the best. This is also suported by the fact that during the fight between Toki and Raoh, Kenshiro stated that not even god could predict the outcome of their battle. therefore not even the destiny knew which one was the best.
That said, i understand your opinion, and i think it's a valid one, i mean Hokuto/Souten no Ken, has always being vague as hell, and with alot of contradictions. And you gave solid points for Kasumi be the strongest one too. I personally belive that an argument can be made for both. Kasumi is just freakishly adaptable, and Ken is just a Monster with alot of different techniques at his disposal. By end of the series both became the apex predator in their time. I think the best answer for now is to play safe, and scale both of them as equals, since Regenesis didn't end yet, and we do not have access to some fully translated materials. Maybe by the end of Regenessis, Kasumi will surpass Kenshiro, maybe not, Maybe Kasumi will use Musou Tensei !!! but for now, we should scale both of them as equals, that way we'll make sure that we're not doing a disservice for the characters.
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I'm just curious, would it be possible for someone like Kasumi or Kenshiro to have an enhanced longevity/lifespan? I mean, most characters don't really last too long in the story, but I really don't think that a much longer than normal lifespan would be too crazy.
I wish there was at least 1 example of it in-story.
I wish there was at least 1 example of it in-story.
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Here are all the wiki blogs/calcs that need to be evaluated:
1. Of course, there's this, and IIRC @Twellas said that he felt like it was best to use the 2100 meter range and that he believed that both the 1/34.3 second and the 1/220 second could be used since given Raoh's speed both speeds were probable.
2. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...the_North_Star_Assorted_Feats_(2)#Soryu_Tenra
3. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:KLOL506/RaohCalc
I will likely do one for all the non-wiki calcs later, but I would like to request that even after we look at these feats, we also wait somewhat until the non-wiki ones are looked at.
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People change their mind
Doesn't matter, the statement would be factually incorrect if Kasumi hadn't mastered Musou Tensei, you can't have "the fullest form" of a martial art without mastering its most important technique
literally no part of my comment implied that I agreed with that specific segment of the description, I don't have an issue with the description as a whole, just that passage.
uuhhh in the fact that Kenshiro, while very clearly still not unlocking the full power of Hokuto, whooped Raoh's ass? The statement clearly says Raoh>Hokuto, which is demonstrably false and just makes no sense
Kasumi wasn't even in Buronson's imagination when he had Raoh say that.
Already explained why that's unusable
...no, not really, Kasumi can still do a ton of stuff like burn him from the inside out with Seito Gekken techniques, chi drain his ass, turn him to dust... Why does that matter at all in a matter of AP?
... I... don't really care about how many people think that, it's a baseless assumption. Oh, what's this? Here's Yasaka tanking an actual strike from the actual goddess of Hokuto and not through some proxy!
Well, it for sure retcons every statement from Raoh, because, as I've already said, the Ryuken who gave that statement is the same who has a direct scaling chain that puts him above Musou Tensei Raoh. With these out of the way, the only real statement Ken has is the Sekimatsu one.
The taoist is pretty clearly talking AFTER Kasumi is already dead, the phrase "The time has come to tell the legend of the blue sky" means that said "legend" has already ended; given how the narration is presented as a sort of flashback, you could argue that it's set during or even after the events of HNK.
This is not the place to talk about this, that's right. I also agree that having them as equals is the safest option
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Nah, I don't think so, unless Regenesis gives us some more feats. All the MFTL+ stuff is from Souten no Ken regardless and that stuff doesn't only scale to the god tiers, hell, one of the feats comes from a guy Kasumi fodderises
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1. Here ya go: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...asumi_holds_up_a_large_staff_and_a_steel_ball
2. By the way, would you happen to know by any chance if there is anything in the entirety of FOTNS about any of the characters using their powers for a longer lifespan/longevity? Just curious.
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Kasumi's mother was like, 500 years old or something like that, though it's implied that she isn't even human, so...
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Are you sure? Where does it say she's 500 years old?
Also, she looks really good for that age lol.
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500 is an estimate, all I remember is that she's supposed to be older than any human could possibly be, but she isn't human, Kasumi couldn't smell her nor sense her aura, she's implied to be a spirit akin to the taoist
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Okay. I will ask for evaluation help, but would appreciate if you copy all of the calculations not featured in our wiki to a blog post there, and then link to it here, as well.
@Mr._Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @DemonGodMitchAubin @Armorchompy
Would any of you be willing to evaluate the calculations linked above, and then tell us here, please?
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I'll likely do it later.
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Here ya go! Hope it helps!
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@DMUA @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Armorchompy @KieranH10 @Psychomaster35 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @DragonGamerZ913
Would any of you be willing to evaluate the above-linked calculations and then tell us here please? This thread is important, but is not going anywhere.
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To Whoever evaluates the blog page I posted, please look at the values I found for adding both the split and/or our wiki's speed values (from @Jasonsith's page) into the calc's low-end and high-end values.
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I have a question for people who think Kasumi is stronger than Ken, is it not actually redundant?. Kenshiro is heavily implied to be the reincarnation of Kasumi and kasumi is outright shown to have had multiple incarnations throughout history. you can clearly see a young boy centuries in the past in the Souten no Ken manga who is shown with his brothers and they all look almost identical to Ken, Raoh and Toki.
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being a reincarnation of a guy doesn't automatically make you as strong as the og, we aren't even sure they are reincarnations, let alone the mechanics behind it
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I apologise for my ignorance.
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How did you come to the estimate of her being 500?
Because "older than any human could be" could be just 150 years old.
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Actually, I did some internet surfing, and I couldn't find anything about Kasumi's mother being a goddess or being older than any human
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Ok, she's not superhumanly old, she's supposed to be around 80 years old I guess. I think it's not that big of a stretch to say the has some for of Longevity.
her being supernatural is all but confirmed, she can emanate light randomly, Kasumi can't smell her nor sense her aura (Kasumi can literally smell abstract concepts like "murderous intent" and what martial art you practice) and she's implied to have some relation with the Goddess of Hokuto
her being supernatural is all but confirmed, she can emanate light randomly, Kasumi can't smell her nor sense her aura (Kasumi can literally smell abstract concepts like "murderous intent" and what martial art you practice) and she's implied to have some relation with the Goddess of Hokuto
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I'll try my best, but even if I can manage to copy the needed calcs, that'll take some time.
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Also, for how I managed to find all the values of that DA Goten Sho calc if the split is added, it turns out that if you look at all the values that @Jasonsith found, they all have the same multiplier of:
(AP value of just the hole) * (about 7.382498) = AP value of both the hole and the split
Not kidding.
(AP value of just the hole) * (about 7.382498) = AP value of both the hole and the split
Not kidding.
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@KLOL506
Can you post this in a regular calculation blog please?
vsbattles.fandom.com
Can you post this in a regular calculation blog please?
KLOL506/RaohCalc
vsbattles.fandom.com
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I'm not sure if that was accepted so uh...@KLOL506
Can you post this in a regular calculation blog please?
KLOL506/RaohCalc
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