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Fire Force to Soul Eater - Death and Asura

LordGinSama said:
So your trying to tell me that Black-Blood can increase one's AP from like 6-C at best to 2-C? Meaning a gap of at least two infinities? Yeah I'm not buying that part.



The scaling might be legitimate but I'll be bent over a barrel and shown the 50 states if this isn't the outlier of the century. Like the scaling for Soul Eater is already inconsistent as it is with the feats presented.
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Flawed take for two reasons:

The current tier of FF has nothing to do with the OP. Its tiering is undergoing revision atm (arc plans on one in the future as well). The crt is entirely to prove death is relative to SBM.

We also have no idea what tier Asura started off as when he was just a fragment, only that he was weaker than Death. Pre black blood Asura is Unknown
 
I'm honestly unsure if Black blood is the sole reason why Asura became so strong, its likely also from him taking in Vajra that he got stronger. The past Death also prob needed a death scythe to beat him.
 
LordGinSama said:
Tbh I'm not sure how Shinra stating that he made Death more intimate and a little closer. It could just be me but at least the way that I'm seeing it, I'm not seeing how that statement equates Death being equal to himself.



I also really wouldn't use Death collecting Shinra's soul as evidence of him scaling. It's extremely obvious that Shinra was willing letting Death absorb his soul.
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Definitely agree on these two. Overall I'm neutral on FF - SE cross scaling as I haven't read FF myself so I can really only take others' word for it.
 
Ok I’ll give my personal perspective on the matter while discussing some of the evidence presented:

I’m not a big fan of Death scaling to Shinra. I’ll be up front on that. And I do not agree with some of the interpretations of the scans.

For example:

Death scales equally to Shinrabanshoman as he was created to be his equal and replacement as God, which is noted to be a role of power. Death also shows the ability to manipulate the souls of mankind as SBM and Haumea did, adding further support to being their equal.
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I do not agree with saying Death scales equally to Shinrabanshoman as for one Shinra straight up not only made Death, but completely altered his concept as well.

Shinra displayed that he could just manipulate Death itself where it became fundamentally different than it was before and he even went as far as to lessen the very value of life which goes hand in hand with Death. So Shinra can screw with life and death whenever he wants to when he’s in his godly form.

This scan of Shinra saying Death is absolute doesn’t really support the notion because in the scan of Shinra saying “nothing is absolute” he literally makes a contradictory absolute statement of Haumea not regretting the world they live in.

This is fine because god is full of contradictions as Shinra states. Shinra can call Death an absolute being with Death not truly being an absolute being in terms of Fire Force due to this contradiction Shinra knowingly allows. He can just be an “absolute being” over Death because he is it’s concept not an “absolute being” over all of creation like Shinra was cited as being.

Shinra referring to Death as “lord” and him confiscating his powers as this scan shows doesn’t support the notion of Death scaling equally to Shinra either imo because Shinra was A. Clearly willingly relinquishing his power so Death can take over as “God” of the new world Shinra himself created. He also did not “absorb” any of the powers he took either he simply took them at Shinra’s behest.

Death as “God” here makes sense not in the sense of him having “power equal to Shinra” but as in him being the literal concept of Death itself. This goes narratively as well since the reason humanity asked for Death to begin with was because of the fear they had from it. Thus when Shinra lessened the value of life he brought Death closer to humanity so they would no longer have to fear it. He is the “Absolute God” of “Death.” Not the “absolute god of all of creation” as Shinra was cited as being.

But the main issue I have with Death is that….he demonstrates nothing on the capability of either Shinra or Adolla. He does not even contend with them in combat, the only indication is Shinra labeling Death as “God” that we are then suppose to assume means “God in absolute power” while demonstrates nothing if that indication.

Even Shinra was shown reality warping the sun and also changing the depiction of the world. But Death shows no such abilities to that capability which is where my hesitancy lies. Haumea mentions how all of creation stems from imagination which Shinra manifests. This is the reason he is God because he controls “All of creation” and has feats to back it up. Death does not rule over “all of creation” nor is he capable of manipulating all of reality through his imagination.

He is simply “A God to rule Death” as Shinra states.

TDLR; I think scaling Death to Shinra causes more messy scaling than not due to his very much lack of presentation anywhere near the levels of either Shinra or Haumea as well as the fact that Death can be seen as the “absolute God of death” instead of the “God of all powerful creation” like Shinra was said to be.

Death here is meant to be the “God of Death” while Shinra here is meant to be the “god of all creation.” Which seemingly includes life and death itself being part of that “creation” as Shinra’s manipulation displays.

In regards to the Kishin being Adolla, I will say this because this post is getting long enough as is: There is straight up concrete proof that the Kishin is the remnants of Adolla.

I will have to go more in depth in my next post.
 
This is fine because god is full of contradictions as Shinra states.
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This is before chapter 298, where Shinra comes to know the full meaning of what being God entails. In that chapter he comes to the full understanding that he had not considered the true root of Despair, and then makes Death. His words after 298 point toward him considering Death as an absolute entity.

Shinra referring to Death as “lord” and him confiscating his powers as this scan shows doesn’t support the notion of Death scaling equally to Shinra either imo because Shinra was A. Clearly willingly relinquishing his power so Death can take over as “God” of the new world Shinra himself created. He also did not “absorb” any of the powers he took either he simply took them at Shinra’s behest.
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Again this is meant as a parallel to Haumea calling Shinra as lord prior, when noting the meaning of the title of God. The point of specifying taking Shinra and co's powers is not that Death absorbed their power, rather to show Death functions the same as SBM and Haumea, in that he can affect the souls of all mankind, which is also stated to be the case in Soul Eater.

Your points on what Death is the god of
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Death is not just the god of death, but of order. Soul Eater establishes he is that and that some of the eight Great ones are his fragments. Shinra made Death to be his replacement and to solve the root of Despair. Death is also meant to fill the role of an actual God to mankind, whereas the evangelist is a falsehood.

In soul eater, its noted True Gods, in this case Death, rule over the Cosmos, and that Death as the "Power of God", which makes him the strongest in the world.

Haumea notes Shinra used his imagination AND the Power of God to make creation. AS you can see in the op, Ohkubo even years before Fire Force puts heavy focus on Death's Power of God. Haumea also affirms she and the Evangelist are not God, whereas Death is, which is further affirmed by Sho. this would automatically put Death Above the Collective Unconsciousness. As for feats, as mentioned prior, he affects the entire planet and changes even the established order. People become STRONGER than they were as pyrokinetics, so it's very consistent for the Soul Eater era to be on par with the FF era. Soul eater establishes he rules the cosmos, and its noted that the direct opposite of his wavelength, Asura can reshape the world (Archne planned on using to become the "mother of all things)

I do not agree with saying Death scales equally to Shinrabanshoman as for one Shinra straight up not only made Death, but completely altered his concept as well.
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I don't see how this an issue. Death is as strong as he is because Shinra made Death more intimate. I've said this myself as well. He does this make his replacement. There's nothing within this specific point that goes against scaling.
 
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Maitreya said:
I do not agree with saying Death scales equally to Shinrabanshoman as for one Shinra straight up not only made Death, but completely altered his concept as well.
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So he created a concept, doesn't prove he scales above it.

Maitreya said:
Shinra displayed that he could just manipulate Death itself where it became fundamentally different than it was before and he even went as far as to lessen the very value of life which goes hand in hand with Death. So Shinra can screw with life and death whenever he wants to when he’s in his godly form.
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Again Shinra has conceptual hax then, not really a point to him being above Death.

Maitreya said:
This scan of Shinra saying Death is absolute doesn’t really support the notion because in the scan of Shinra saying “nothing is absolute” he literally makes a contradictory absolute statement of Haumea not regretting the world they live in.
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This doesn't seem to be a literal use of absolute, he's merely saying he won't make her regret being born into the world because he's bringing back her protector who died.

Maitreya said:
This is fine because god is full of contradictions as Shinra states. Shinra can call Death an absolute being with Death not truly being an absolute being in terms of Fire Force due to this contradiction Shinra knowingly allows.
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Two different contexts, Haumea sees instincts and consciousness differently where Shinra doesn't but that doesn't make this now true nor does it mean it's an actual contradiction. And in terms of FF Death is an absolute being, hell this is even implied in SE that Death is one who has order over life and death something Shinra can control too.

Maitreya said:
Shinra referring to Death as “lord” and him confiscating his powers as this scan shows doesn’t support the notion of Death scaling equally to Shinra either imo because Shinra was A. Clearly willingly relinquishing his power so Death can take over as “God” of the new world Shinra himself created. He also did not “absorb” any of the powers he took either he simply took them at Shinra’s behest.
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He's capable of taking all the powers that make them strong as they are though, why wouldn't that have correlation to Death's own power? And idk why Shinra being willing makes it any more less about power when he also did this to everyone with powers who were or were not willing.

Maitreya said:
But the main issue I have with Death is that….he demonstrates nothing on the capability of either Shinra or Adolla. He does not even contend with them in combat, the only indication is Shinra labeling Death as “God” that we are then suppose to assume means “God in absolute power” while demonstrates nothing if that indication.
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Probably be the last thing I comment on from ur post.

This argument doesn't really work, we know that Asura someone who scales to Death can affect the entire world and even beyond their dimension with their mere aura as he did in chapter 103, so Death and Asura have the capability to affect the entire world, have the range to do so and Asura has world destruction statements.
 
At the very Minimum Death himself should > the collective unconsciousness, given that he is titled as God while Haumea and the Evangelist are not

image.png
 
Cyberblader90 said:
This is before chapter 298, where Shinra comes to know the full meaning of what being God entails. In that chapter he comes to the full understanding that he had not considered the true root of Despair, and then makes Death. His words after 298 point toward him considering Death as an absolute entity.
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As noted before “absolute entity” can be here meaning “ruler over death” as Shinra immediately points out after. Not “ruler over all of creation” as Shinra is cited. Shinra is still cited as being full of contradictions just like God is. So it’s in basis to contradict himself.

He contradicts himself in the very scan of him saying “nothing is absolute” by bringing in another absolute in his next words to Haumea.
Cyberblader90 said:
Again this is meant as a parallel to Haumea calling Shinra as lord prior, when noting the meaning of the title of God. The point of specifying taking Shinra and co's powers is not that Death absorbed their power, rather to show Death functions the same as SBM and Haumea, in that he can affect the souls of all mankind, which is also stated to be the case in Soul Eater.
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Yes because Shinra is relinquishing his own powers as God so Death can now be God but I do not think that means he has the same power of God. Especially when Death’s own range for his own soul was literally like a city but Shinra is manipulating the souls of all of humanity simultaneously, showing he has a far greater extent of soul manipulation than Death does. (Also he resurrects literally all of humanity casually, something Death is never shown to be able to do.)
Cyberblader90 said:
Death is not just the god of death, but of order. Soul Eater establishes he is that and that some of the eight Great ones are his fragments. Shinra made Death to be his replacement and to solve the root of Despair. Death is also meant to fill the role of an actual God to mankind, whereas the evangelist is a falsehood.
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So if I’m recalling correctly I believe you’re talking about this scan here. This is something I will go into more in depth in my Adolla being Kishin post but to keep things short:

I think what Asura’s referring to there was Shinra and not death (prolly as a retcon tbh) because of the fact that he’s talking about severing the world from Despair, which is what Shinra did. And creating a world full of madness.

This is something Shinra also did. He brought on the “madness” shown in Soul Eater when he changed the depiction of the world. Instead of “fear and despair” originally, it became a “world full of madness” as was cited. (The usage of that term “madness” by Ohkubo was pretty purposeful.)
Cyberblader90 said:
In soul eater, its noted True Gods, in this case Death, rule over the Cosmos, and that Death as the "Power of God", which makes him the strongest in the world.
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This I take as supporting evidence to your claim because my main personal issue is the lack of showings or depictions on the matter of Death performing capabilities anywhere near the level of Shinra or Haumea (and the kind of messy scaling it creates by making Death 2-C), but I will take this as supporting statements to such claim.
Cyberblader90 said:
Haumea notes Shinra used his imagination AND the Power of God to make creation. AS you can see in the op, Ohkubo even years before Fire Force puts heavy focus on Death's Power of God. Haumea also affirms she and the Evangelist are not God, whereas Death is, which is further affirmed by Sho. this would automatically put Death Above the Collective Unconsciousness. As for feats, as mentioned prior, he affects the entire planet and changes even the established order. People become STRONGER than they were as pyrokinetics, so it's very consistent for the Soul Eater era to be on par with the FF era. Soul eater establishes he rules the cosmos, and its noted that the direct opposite of his wavelength, Asura can reshape the world (Archne planned on using to become the "mother of all things)
Click to expand...
Shinra’s power is the power over all of creation as Haumea cites. That is the power of Shinra as god. Death is meant to be the “ruler over death” as Shinra himself says. Death being “God” here can refer to Death being the god over death instead of the god over all of creation like Shinra.

The regular people of soul eater can become stronger than the regular people of Fire Force and that’s fine as I don’t see that as supporting the notion of Death himself scaling to Shinra.

I will say the bigger supporting argument I see of Death being god tier is him facing the Kishin who is meant to be the remnants of Adolla in the new world of madness Shinra created. So Death may be above the collective unconscious unless it can be proven the Kishin is weaker now than when it was Adolla. Which I believe some other users wanted to argue as well.

But I still don’t see him scaling above Shinra 😈
 
Arkenis said:
So he created a concept, doesn't prove he scales above it.


Again Shinra has conceptual hax then, not really a point to him being above Death.
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I’m just gonna comment on this part since I addressed the other notions but…Death (the character) is the concept of death. It’s the same thing.

Shinra was the one who created Death in the first place and altered his concept which means he altered Death’s fundamental being as well.

Death the character would’ve never existed without Shinra willing him into existence. I see no reason why Shinra wouldn’t be able to will the character Death out of existence by simply reversing what he did to the concept of life and death.
 
Yes because Shinra is relinquishing his own powers as God so Death can now be God but I do not think that means he has the same power of God. Especially when Death’s own range for his own soul was literally like a city but Shinra is manipulating the souls of all of humanity simultaneously, showing he has a far greater extent of soul manipulation than Death does. (Also, he resurrects literally all of humanity casually, something Death is never shown to be able to do.)
Click to expand...

out of context, Death's soul is tethered to Death City to prioritize its Safety. He literally shows the same range of soul manip in chapter 302:
0302-008.png
0110-014.png


So if I’m recalling correctly I believe you’re talking about this scan here. This is something I will go into more in depth in my Adolla being Kishin post but to keep things short:
Click to expand...

No, im referring the conversation between Death the Kid and the Great One of power, where the great one describes the existence shinigami is and how he rules the cosmos

Shinra’s power is the power over all of creation as Haumea cites. That is the power of Shinra as god. Death is meant to be the “ruler over death” as Shinra himself says. Death being “God” here can refer to Death being the god over death instead of the god over all of creation like Shinra.
Click to expand...

power over creation is because of two things together: Imagination and the power of God, which is a title. A title that refers to power. Death shares the Same title, heck his original name was "God".

So Death may be above the collective unconscious
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Given that neither Hamuea or the Evangelist are even classified as God, Death is already above the CU
 
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Maitreya said:
I’m just gonna comment on this part since I addressed the other notions but…Death (the character) is the concept of death. It’s the same thing.

Shinra was the one who created Death in the first place and altered his concept which means he altered Death’s fundamental being as well.

Death the character would’ve never existed without Shinra willing him into existence. I see no reason why Shinra wouldn’t be able to will the character Death out of existence by simply reversing what he did to the concept of life and death.
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Are you suggesting a creation cannot be on par with its creator? he created him to be his replacement. Nothing indicates he is weaker
 
Cyberblader90 said:
Are you suggesting a creation cannot be on par with its creator? he created him to be his replacement. Nothing indicates he is weaker
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Nothing specifically indicates him to be at the same level of Attack Potency from what I can tell.
 
the position of God would and his position as replacement

Haumea comments what makes SBM the god of creation is twofold, his imagination and his "power of god". She further states that God is something neither she or the evangelist are, and it's a seat of power. Death is given this designation many times, both in SE and FF. He's both above the collective unconsciousness in power (evangelist) and on par with SBM per that role
 
Maitreya said:
I’m just gonna comment on this part since I addressed the other notions but…Death (the character) is the concept of death. It’s the same thing.

Shinra was the one who created Death in the first place and altered his concept which means he altered Death’s fundamental being as well.

Death the character would’ve never existed without Shinra willing him into existence. I see no reason why Shinra wouldn’t be able to will the character Death out of existence by simply reversing what he did to the concept of life and death.
Click to expand...
Yeah Ik, Death should have AE type 2 so no worries I wasn't like misunderstanding.

Again I don't think creating or being able to manipulate him matters here, as we know Shinra has power of creation not that he's above cration though.
 
Arkenis said:
Probably be the last thing I comment on from ur post.

This argument doesn't really work, we know that Asura someone who scales to Death can affect the entire world and even beyond their dimension with their mere aura as he did in chapter 103, so Death and Asura have the capability to affect the entire world, have the range to do so and Asura has world destruction statements.
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Yeah, to follow up with this, Death, the Ruler of the World, is implied to be "The Ruler of the Cosmos", with Noah and The Great One of Power's statement.

The Great One of Power is even held to high regard by Asura - who saw his Madness of Power inside Black Star and was frightened by it.

Hell, Asura was actually stated to be the strongest in the 8 Reaper Legion BEFORE he became a Kishin - implying that Asura is indeed stronger than Death.

As well as Excalibur, who was part of the 8 Reaper Legion as well - who is stated to be the strongest weapon in the world making him stronger than Vajra (Asura's own weapon who is also part of the 8 Reaper Legion who Asura was also afraid of), Spirit (who Spirit stated that with him they could have defeated Asura, and Death wasn't so confident that he could beat Asura without Spirit), and Matasaburou (who although wasn't one of the 8 Reaper Legion, it was stated to have a "godlike" wavelenth).

Even Crona after absorbing the Kishin, stated that they'd destroy the world. Which was followed up with Kid saying that "this is a battle between Order and Madness.... a war of fear and courage between two Gods!!" Which refers to Death who is the God of Order, which was subsequently passed down to Kid, and Asura who is the God of Madness which was then "passed down" to Crona by eating Asura.

So these characters with "godlike" statements or "world destroying" statements do actually scale to each other in relativity. These "Gods" in Soul Eater have power/rule over the cosmos, and as Shinrabansho-man also had the same cosmic scale powers, so should those in the same "series" that are also considered true gods (like Asura, Death, and Death The Kid)
 
Nierre said:
Yeah, but I'm not sure what'd it even have lol
probably just Vajra's abilities.. maybe the bandage attacks too
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Yeah no it would have the soul hax too. The characters for this verse are missing a lot of abilities on their page lol.
 
Hello. I am only here to say that even if Shinra is stronger than Death and Asura, it's clear you aren't called a God without being extremely powerful in their shared verse. So the idea from the above that even if they aren't on par, those described as godlike or True Gods are relative to Shinra isn't out of the table.
 
Small post now in addition to what was said earlier.

Shinra is the God of all creation because of a combination of the power of God and his imagination. Death lacks the imagination, but still has the power of God.

It's because of the power of God that Shinra can physically tank attacks from the collective unconscious when it's fused with haumea.

Also, we know from death messing with the souls of humanity that he made people stronger than they were before which is also reiterated in soul eater. So, it's narratively consistent for the entities in soul eater to match the levels shown in fire force.

Asura and Death also have range to affect the entire planet, and Asura can even affect other dimensions like the Death Room, a space meant for gods. (Other worlds/spaces isn't anything new for Soul Eater). Shinigami also presides over both Life and Death.
 
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The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Hello. I am only here to say that even if Shinra is stronger than Death and Asura, it's clear you aren't called a God without being extremely powerful in their shared verse. So the idea from the above that even if they aren't on par, those described as godlike or True Gods are relative to Shinra isn't out of the table.
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Yeah this is part of my argument as well.
 
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