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Fire Force Higher-Dimensional Existence Discussion/Possible Removal

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PrinceofPein said:
you have some really big leaps in logic right there
1. Changing the nature of Pi means adolla being referred to higher dimensions means it is a mathematical dimension
2. The raws I will have to check for myself but does not mean much on its own since it is a monologue
3. Being called a higher plane means nothing if you cannot prove it is mathematical/physics
4. Staring at the sun does not mean higher dimensional, you get blinded
5. If it was a mathematical dimension then there will be no consequences for accessing it, for all it gives is an extra axis and we just will not be able to use it.
6. Contain =/= encompass
7. Extradimension means outside physical reality which you know puts a dent and is an anti-feat to your mathematical axis
7.5. They cannot access it or touch it due to the flames
8. The most important one is that, there is no extra axis anywhere

So all in all this are just stringents of scans that says "adolla is a higher plane/dimensions" and then mix it with it containing maths then jumped into it manipulating Pi to mean that it contains an extra directional axis, well that is BS
Click to expand...
1) I don’t understand this
2)ok
3) The evidence used to validate its Higher dimensional nature is Adolla being the embodiment of the ideation of a higher dimensional plane which in the raws is mathematical in nature, also supported by the concept of “mathematics” being involved
4)The r>f depiction as pointed out by Mait is based on the lower dimensional beings not having access to the adolla without a side effect, which in this case is losing one’s eye
5)The fact that it’s mathematical and having a side effect already shows it’s superiority over the lower D as they are not able to fully grasp or comprehend it’s nature
6) contain and encompass are synonyms lol
7)why would being outside of the 3D reality be an anti feat?
7.5) This is the must confusing point so far
8) The extra dimensional axis is proven by it not being accessible to the lower D and it not acting on the same dimensional plane as the real world, being a purely conceptual world housing human ideation and thoughts which includes “higher dimensions” should suffice as a substantiation on its HDE nature
 
PrinceofPein said:
you have some really big leaps in logic right there
1. Changing the nature of Pi means adolla being referred to higher dimensions means it is a mathematical dimension
Click to expand...
No, Adolla being referred to as a higher dimensional in the mathematical sense alongside it being specifically mentioned to encompass mathematics as well means it’s a mathematical dimension. Adolla’s manipulation and creation of Pi is simply further evidence that Adolla actually encompasses the concept of mathematics.
PrinceofPein said:
2. The raws I will have to check for myself but does not mean much on its own since it is a monologue
Click to expand...
What do you mean? It’s literally stating what concepts and ideas are encompassed within the Adolla plane. So it referring to higher dimensions in the mathematical sense alongside it referring to mathematics as whole is pretty substantive.
PrinceofPein said:
3. Being called a higher plane means nothing if you cannot prove it is mathematical/physics
Click to expand...
And I’m proving it’s mathematical because Adolla is directly referenced alongside mathematics with its higher dimensional status.
PrinceofPein said:
4. Staring at the sun does not mean higher dimensional, you get blinded
Click to expand...
You completely missed that point since it was an analogy. You can’t even gaze upon Adolla because of its higher dimensional status, your eyes can’t comprehend what it’s sees.
PrinceofPein said:
5. If it was a mathematical dimension then there will be no consequences for accessing it, for all it gives is an extra axis and we just will not be able to use it.
Click to expand...
A lower dimensional being not being able to grasp of access a higher dimensional structure isn’t an anti-feat to it being a higher dimensional structure in nature, what?
PrinceofPein said:
6. Contain =/= encompass
Click to expand...
It’s literally stated that all thoughts, ideations, and concepts are what Adolla is, so it’s not just “containing” it, Adolla is it themselves.
PrinceofPein said:
7. Extradimension means outside physical reality which you know puts a dent and is an anti-feat to your mathematical axis
Click to expand...
No it doesn’t? It being outside of Einsteinian space-time doesn’t make it an anti-feat to mathematical axis’. I don’t know where you even got that from.
PrinceofPein said:
7.5. They cannot access it or touch it due to the flames
Click to expand...
What? No they cannot touch it because the Adolla flames themselves weren’t safe for “someone like them” to touch. Someone like them just being a regular human without the grace of Adolla.
PrinceofPein said:
8. The most important one is that, there is no extra axis anywhere
Click to expand...
A higher dimension in a mathematical sense would be an extra axis here.
PrinceofPein said:
So all in all this are just stringents of scans that says "adolla is a higher plane/dimensions" and then mix it with it containing maths then jumped into it manipulating Pi to mean that it contains an extra directional axis, well that is BS
Click to expand...
No it’s an assembly of evidence gathered which shows Adolla being continually referred to as a higher dimension in a mathematical sense, showcasing its higher dimensional status in comparison to lower dimensional beings and other such evidences I haven’t even begun to bring up yet.
 
Maitreya said:
No, Adolla being referred to as a higher dimensional in the mathematical sense alongside it being specifically mentioned to encompass mathematics as well means it’s a mathematical dimension. Adolla’s manipulation and creation of Pi is simply further evidence that Adolla actually encompasses the concept of mathematics.
Click to expand...
Again containing the concept of mathematics means nothing
This universe contains the concept of mathematics does that make me or anyone who can affect the universe and things in it Higher D?
Maitreya said:
What do you mean? It’s literally stating what concepts and ideas are encompassed within the Adolla plane. So it referring to higher dimensions in the mathematical sense alongside it referring to mathematics as whole is pretty substantive.
Click to expand...
Again it is not, it is just your own flawed interpretation of it
Maitreya said:
And I’m proving it’s mathematical because Adolla is directly referenced alongside mathematics with its higher dimensional status.
Click to expand...
OH yes, it is called a higher plane and said to contain mathematics and concepts that must mean it is dimension that has 4 space axes.
See the logic?
Maitreya said:
You completely missed that point since it was an analogy. You can’t even gaze upon Adolla because of its higher dimensional status, your eyes can’t comprehend what it’s sees.
Click to expand...
So Burns and Joker were saying rubbish since they cannot comprehend it hence your major scan falls into shit since they had no idea what they are saying.
That aside they comprehended it just fine
Maitreya said:
A lower dimensional being not being able to grasp of access a higher dimensional structure isn’t an anti-feat to it being a higher dimensional structure in nature, what?
Click to expand...
Read it again, I said they would be able to access it and not the other way around
Maitreya said:
It’s literally stated that all thoughts, ideations, and concepts are what Adolla is, so it’s not just “containing” it, Adolla is it themselves.
Click to expand...
Encompass means to hold all of it within it is different from equals to
Maitreya said:
No it doesn’t? It being outside of Einsteinian space-time doesn’t make it an anti-feat to mathematical axis’. I don’t know where you even got that from.
Click to expand...
it does my boy, since it is not physical and you need it to be physical.
Maitreya said:
What? No they cannot touch it because the Adolla flames themselves weren’t safe for “someone like them” to touch. Someone like them just being a regular human without the grace of Adolla.
Click to expand...
Yes they cannot touch adolla cause of the flames what is your issue with that statement?
since your scan just supported it, the flame cannot be touched by everyone
Maitreya said:
A higher dimension in a mathematical sense would be an extra axis here.
Click to expand...
They are your head canons and interpretation. There is nothing solid from your scans though.
Maitreya said:
No it’s an assembly of evidence gathered which shows Adolla being continually referred to as a higher dimension in a mathematical sense,
Click to expand...
No you sent a scan of adolla being called a higher plane, a scan of adolla stated to contain mathematics, concepts and a scan of adolla manipulating Pi.
And you round it up to be a higher Dimension with an extra axis.
it is a fly in logic and not a leap at this point
 
PrinceofPein said:
Again containing the concept of mathematics means nothing
This universe contains the concept of mathematics does that make me or anyone who can affect the universe and things in it Higher D?
Click to expand...
You’re whole rebuttal is being based off this very very inaccurate statement you keep repeating.

Adolla doesn’t “contain” the concept of mathematics, Adolla is the concept of mathematics.

As has been stated time and time again, Adolla is simply pure thoughts and ideation. They even go so far as to give you a visual of exactly what Adolla is.



You see? Adolla isn’t “containing” those thoughts, Adolla is those thoughts themselves.



Adolla is the place where all of humanities perceptions end up at, the reason for this is because humanities perceptions and thoughts are what make up Adolla in the first place. These thoughts and concepts includes things such as mathematics and higher dimensions as is specifically cited.

For God’s sake they even say that The Evangelist is the entirety of humanities collective unconscious given form itself


3145BD7F-3B93-43B5-812D-9E1598E2AEE4.jpg


So no, Adolla doesn’t contain these concepts, Adolla are these concepts themselves.
 
To be fair if they only embody thoughts I really don't think you can call them "conceptual embodiments." isn't exactly accurate as thoughts are not conceptual.


The Abstract Existence page makes this clear, there's a blatant difference between thought based AE and outright conceptual AE. Unless it's directly stated word for word that Adolla is the very concept of thoughts as a whole (Not just the thoughts of humanity.) then it shouldn't qualify for conceptual existence.
 
LordGinSama said:
To be fair if they only embody thoughts I really don't think you can call them "conceptual embodiments." isn't exactly accurate as thoughts are not conceptual.


The Abstract Existence page makes this clear, there's a blatant difference between thought based AE and outright conceptual AE. Unless it's directly stated word for word that Adolla is the very concept of thoughts as a whole (Not just the thoughts of humanity.) then it shouldn't qualify for conceptual existence.
Click to expand...
We luckily, it is in fact mentioned that these aren’t just thoughts but the very concepts themselves as well.

8.jpg


This image actually explains it pretty well. The cataclysm is the merging of the real world with the world of ideas, Adolla, which results in the concepts of the people of the previous world to be merged with the real world when the cataclysm happened 250 years ago.
 
Maitreya said:
You’re whole rebuttal is being based off this very very inaccurate statement you keep repeating.

Adolla doesn’t “contain” the concept of mathematics, Adolla is the concept of mathematics.

As has been stated time and time again, Adolla is simply pure thoughts and ideation. They even go so far as to give you a visual of exactly what Adolla is.



You see? Adolla isn’t “containing” those thoughts, Adolla is those thoughts themselves.



Adolla is the place where all of humanities perceptions end up at, the reason for this is because humanities perceptions and thoughts are what make up Adolla in the first place. These thoughts and concepts includes things such as mathematics and higher dimensions as is specifically cited.

For God’s sake they even say that The Evangelist is the entirety of humanities collective unconscious given form itself


3145BD7F-3B93-43B5-812D-9E1598E2AEE4.jpg


So no, Adolla doesn’t contain these concepts, Adolla are these concepts themselves.
Click to expand...

Okay and????
Where is the HDE based on the extra axis, I am still waiting for that since all these are irrelevant.
Sure adolla contains the thoughts of humanity and materialises them but which part is the HDE?
I am not interested in mental gymnastics
 
Maitreya said:
We luckily, it is in fact mentioned that these aren’t just thoughts but the very concepts themselves as well.

8.jpg


This image actually explains it pretty well. The cataclysm is the merging of the real world with the world of ideas, Adolla, which results in the concepts of the people of the previous world to be merged with the real world when the cataclysm happened 250 years ago.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that be a Type 3 construct then? Unless "people." are literally the only race within the verse then I believe this would be a personal concept.



Keep in mind I haven't read FF only SE these are more so me asking questions out of curiosity.
 
LordGinSama said:
Wouldn't that be a Type 3 construct then? Unless "people." are literally the only race within the verse then I believe this would be a personal concept.
Click to expand...

in the past, the previous reality and it’s people shaped Adolla with their concepts. So after the Great Cataclysm (which merges Adolla with reality), the current world was born which contains concepts from the past mixed in with reality.

Although Shinra tampered with this, another Great Cataclysm happened at the end of the series which contains the concepts from the FF world in SE world.
 
LordGinSama said:
Wouldn't that be a Type 3 construct then? Unless "people." are literally the only race within the verse then I believe this would be a personal concept.



Keep in mind I haven't read FF only SE these are more so me asking questions out of curiosity.
Click to expand...
Nah it would be at least type 2. The concepts being referred to are all concepts in general

An example of type 2 conceptual manip being presented in the series is when Adolla changed the mathematical concept of Pi from an infinite, insolvable equation into a solvable one.


So yeah, Adolla both being stated to house the idea of “mathematics” as a whole coupled with the fact that they both created and manipulated “Pi” itself I think gives proper credence to type 2 conceptual manip.

There’s other examples as well involving the concept of “despair” but that was just the one that came to the top of my head
 
Maitreya said:
What do you mean? It’s literally stating what concepts and ideas are encompassed within the Adolla plane. So it referring to higher dimensions in the mathematical sense alongside it referring to mathematics as whole is pretty substantive.
Click to expand...
« Ko Jigen » doesn’t necessarily refer to higher dimensions in the mathematical sense everytime it’s used.
 
Apologies if I’m about to spit stuff that are against standards, I’m not too accustomed to those yet, but a few thoughts:

The collective unconscious of 3D humans being 5D is iffy, what exactly are they perceiving or conceptualizing that creates this? What do we see of mathematics in Fire Force? Why assume that the concept of additional axes is tackled in the first place? Mathematics is a human construct, we can’t generalize it as “is the concept of mathematics therefore deals with higher-d planes gg”. Lumping the words “is a higher plane” and “is mathematics” together on the basis that they appear on the same page is forced. This higher plane is the collective of the concepts which humanity perceives and interacts with, including mathematics, which doesn’t seem to have the proper context in-series to warrant it describing higher-dimensional planes. Again, I’m asking to see notable uses of the word “dimension” throughout the series to give this concept of mathematics a basis. That should waive most of my arguments here.
 
BadSystems said:
Apologies if I’m about to spit stuff that are against standards, I’m not too accustomed to those yet, but a few thoughts:

The collective unconscious of 3D humans being 5D is iffy, what exactly are they perceiving or conceptualizing that creates this? What do we see of mathematics in Fire Force? Why assume that the concept of additional axes is tackled in the first place? Mathematics is a human construct, we can’t generalize it as “is the concept of mathematics therefore deals with higher-d planes gg”. Lumping the words “is a higher plane” and “is mathematics” together on the basis that they appear on the same page is forced. This higher plane is the collective of the concepts which humanity perceives and interacts with, including mathematics, which doesn’t seem to have the proper context in-series to warrant it describing higher-dimensional planes. Again, I’m asking to see notable uses of the word “dimension” throughout the series to give this concept of mathematics a basis. That should waive most of my arguments here.
Click to expand...
"Higher plane" uses the kanji for 'Higher dimension" in raws. It's just a translation thing. Both are technically correct.
 
Cool, but I want to see dimension used in a sense other than “world” or “realm” at some point.
 
BadSystems said:
Cool, but I want to see dimension used in a sense other than “world” or “realm” at some point.
Click to expand...
If you wanna get super technical. 次元 means mathematical dimension. You could infer "高次元" means a higher mathematical dimension than the one before. It also seperates "World" from it.
 
World is used as Universe in Fire Force, so it could just mean higher world.

But about the technical meaning thing, could you post the untranslated scan?
 
BadSystems said:
World is used as Universe in Fire Force, so it could just mean higher world.

But about the technical meaning thing, could you post the untranslated scan?
Click to expand...
I posted the untranslated part from what I have, where it mentions the higher plane/dimension in the 2nd image of imgur album. Will try to find full image but Fire Force raws kinda hard to find for me.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
I posted the untranslated part from what I have, where it mentions the higher plane/dimension in the 2nd image of imgur album. Will try to find full image but Fire Force raws kinda hard to find for me.
Click to expand...
How do I use the album? When I click on the arrow it takes me to a blank screen.
Edit: NVM, figured it out.
 
Makai641001 said:
No

Not necessarily
Click to expand...
From the definitions I’ve found with the kanji it is in fact typically referring to higher dimensions in the mathematics sense.

jlearn.net

Meaning of 高次元, こうじげん, koujigen | Japanese Dictionary | JLearn.net

The english translations and meanings for 高次元, こうじげん and koujigen are: high dimension,higher dimensions
jlearn.net jlearn.net


www.romajidesu.com

Meaning of 高次元 in Japanese | RomajiDesu Japanese dictionary

高次元, 高次元, こうじげん, koujigen, meaning, definition, Japanese, English, Romaji
www.romajidesu.com

There’s also no reason to think it isn’t referring to “higher dimensions” in a mathematical sense when it’s literally referring to mathematics itself alongside higher dimensions, so the fact that the kanji uses “higher dimension” to mean that in a mathematically higher sense gives credence to the fact that both the ideas of “mathematics” and “higher dimensions” are encompassed alongside Adolla.

So yeah, I don’t know why in this case it wouldn’t be referring to higher dimensions mathematically given the context of the scene.
 
I feel like a summary of the current state of the CRT is in order before tagging more staff since it's been dozens of replies since the last staff member commented here and that was @First_Witch (albeit retired) and from what I can tell, there isn't a clear resolution to the discussion.
 
First witch input is irrelevant (in the sense of, he has no control over moderation), so not sure why are you counting it as a staff member vote.
You need to count the actual vote (@Duedate8898) because for some reason y'all want to ignore the opposing one.
 
ImmortalDread said:
First witch input is irrelevant (in the sense of, he has no control over moderation), so not sure why are you counting it as a staff member vote.
You need to count the actual vote (@Duedate8898) because for some reason y'all want to ignore the opposing one.
Click to expand...
Must you project your national insecurities in comparason to us like this?

Even if Dread was incorrect, I was just making fun of Deceived. If anyone counted me as a vote then lol, lmao even.
 
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