Fire Emblem Major CRT: 4-A

[JustSomeWeirdo]

In this thread I will go over a Low 2-C 4-A upgrade for Fire Emblem and who all scales

First and foremost, we have the feat:



This official character guide states that the character Lilith, is capable of creating "Star Realms" (Localized as Astral Plane) in order to aid Corrin and their group, referring to the My Castle hub world.

Second, while the area is officially referred to as "My Castle", I must confirm that the area is, in fact, universal 4-A in size. Here are some details:

Basically, the Astral Plane is a parallel world with a separate space and time from the main universe Corrin is from

Third, who this all scales to:

Basically, Lilith, who doesn't have a profile, and everyone who by extension scales to her:

The Astral Dragon, Moro (Granted Lilith her power and should be superior) (does not have a profile but mentioning him is required for scaling)

Anankos (Scales to Moro, the First Dragons were unable to directly wage war with each other due to the potential damage)

Omega Yato Corrin (Scales to Anankos)

Naga (Stated, by Anankos, to have more power than him)

And by extension, everyone who scales to Naga, a scaling chain that's long accepted on the wiki in case of an upgrade like this one

There is some debate as to whether or not Garon or Takumi (and their respective Endgame Corrins), when granted the power of Anankos, downscales from him, as the power granted to Garon (which is comparable to the power granted to Takumi) made the difference between Corrin making quick work of him and actually fighting on even levels. Of course, it's debatable whether or not they truly downscale from the Silent Dragon to the point of sharing a Tier.

Fourth, why nobody else scales:

Simply put, outside of the Astral Plane, with the exception of travelling to it and creating it, she's powerless in realms that aren't full of dragon vein energy, like V*lla and, of course, the Astral Plane. Meaning there's no funny Low 2-C 4-A scaling to anyone who attacks her in, say, a cutscene taking place in Nohr or Hoshido

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This checks out to me, but it looks like we need a lot of staff support for such a big upgrade.

 

[TheGatememer]

This upgrade looks good

but you forgot to include Ike and Roy

 

[Bobsican]

"V*lla"
It doesn't help this is a normal word in several languages, I wonder how it would have been localized if the game was in more languages than English and Japanese.
Anyways, I agree with the proposals given.

 

[Edwellken]

This is unexpected but pretty straightforward. Looks good.

 

[XitSign]

It seems simple enough, and it's scaling we already use, so I have no issues with it.

EDIT: For clarity, the other thread brought up that this is comparable to AP thanks to Anakos, right? Just want it to be as clear as possible for non-supporters to understand why this creation feat works.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Yeah, I also provided the scaling chain (for the most part) that Moro (who granted Lilith's power) should be comparable to Anankos

 

[TheGatememer]

Funny how there were originally 4-A crts for Anankos

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

His daughter succeeding where he failed

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

This makes sense to me.

 

[Jibz]

following and agreeing so far, everything looks pretty clear cut. Nice job OP

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I agree, but I will say that you should think of a summary (with scans) for explaining why it scales to their physicals. A lot of people look at this wiki's pages and are confused as to why creation is scaled to AP here

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Basically a few things that are actually already accepted, with the energy used for Dragon Veins essentially acting as a Universal Energy System for Dragons

Lilith requires the same energy ("Dragon Vein" energy) to power herself that Anankos does (which, of course, being powered by the same energy source doesn't necessarily make you the same level of strength, however he directly scales to Moro, as stated above, who should be stronger than Lilith)

In areas lacking in said power, they're powerless. In both potential instances that Lilith returns to the real world, after having used up all the power she's had left, she gets oneshotted (potentially even by a fodder enemy, like in Conquest)

 

[Zencha9]

pretty straight forward

 

[Bobsican]

Hmm... on second thought:

I did some research on the Character Guide Book since its art-style seemed familiar. It turns out that this is from the 4koma manga books for FE Fates where 2 separate Corrins interact with each other from time to time and thus is not inherently connected canon-wise to the games. Is there a reason why you omitted where Lilith's character profile came from?

Regardless, should any information from this manga be reasonably considered for the game continuity? Mostly because we do not use Manga feats, profiles or statements for the game continuity AFAIK. It is also worth discussing if this realm creation feat scales to AP based on the Creation Feats standards, to futureproof and all.

Anankos creating "star realms" on a Low 2-C scale also seems to be higher than when it took him time and effort to restore the damage Grima did to the Awakening future timeline, which ranges from 7-B to perhaps even High 6-A, plus this Low 2-C feat is far above the rest of the feats in the "Naga Timeline", so it might even be an outlier.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

did to the Awakening future timeline, which ranges from 7-B to perhaps even High 6-A, plus this Low 2-C feat is far above the rest of the feats in the "Naga Timeline", so it might even be an outlier.

Undoing the damage was something done explicitly on request.

Anankos' other "7-B feat" was only done to move things, rather than an actual intended attack

Other than that we literally just have Grima being big, there are no feats to speak of

 

[TheGatememer]

The profile itself is from a manga and character guide. While the events in the manga aren't canon, the actual Low 2-C feat itself did not originate from the manga. The character guide just expands upon the feat, and gives extra information about it.

 

[Bobsican]

While it may be an expansion and all, the thing is that it can't be used per canon standards, you'd have to argue how it fits as a secondary canon to begin with.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Undoing the damage is more of a hax thing and not a non-casual low end feat pure say.

JSW already covered the details regarding the Universal Power Sources debate; Moro has more of it than Lilith does. And Anankos iirc has statements about being able to destroy some of the star realms or at least terrorize them? But either way, Lilith apparently has multiple tier 4 creation feats as a back up.

And yeah, High 6-C via sheer size is too casual to be considered an (Insert certain compound word universally hated) in any way shape or form. And we already know Divine Dragons can't actually create unlike First Dragons despite officially being considered much stronger via Naga Vs Anankos take.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

you'd have to argue how it fits as a secondary canon to begin with.

Probably by being, quite literally, a Character Guide written to tell you more about the characters

 

[Bobsican]

But only of the manga continuity for all we know, so uh... yeah.

 

[TheGatememer]

You would have a point if the feat was from the manga, but it isn't. It is a character guide by Intelligent Systems.

 

[Eficiente]

So, why does this scale to physicals?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

As explained above, the same energy used for their magic is also used for their physicals

 

[Eficiente]

Well, having the same categorized power/energy doesn't necessarily mean that something being created may be the same as the same power being used offensively. If it wasn't under 1 name feats like this can still be done via something that can be called out as magic, or someone's power/superpowers in a way that the latter can be lesser physically, so what does it add that it is "Dragon Vein" energy as opposed to if we didn't know that?

 

[TheGatememer]

That same energy is also seen amplifying individuals.

 

[Eficiente]

Yes, ok.

I don't disagree with this in an objective way, maybe it scales to physicals in the same level the creation feat is, maybe it doesn't. I'm good with a "likely".

 

[Confluctor]

Low 2-C seems good to me

 

[QuasiYuri]

Isn't this space seen as similar to the places where they make the heroes' children grow up ?

 

[TheGatememer]

Isn't this space seen as similar to the places where they make the heroes' children grow up ?

It's similar in a way, but not the same space. Those are the Deeprealms, this is the Astral Plane.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

This is giving me Sonic 06 vibes, a bad game in a popular gaming franchise that also has among the most impressive feats in the canon like just why???

As long as it meets the universal energy system criteria which judging by the evidence, seems to be the case I think this upgrade is overall fine (personal grievance aside) but a bit more input will help strengthen the arguments and clear up some potential misgivings. This is a massive upgrade afterall.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fates games aren't that bad; in fact, I don't think there's ever been a bad FE game. I think all of them are great.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Fates games aren't that bad; in fact, I don't think there's ever been a bad FE game. I think all of them are great.

Fair enough I can respect that take, I personally think forcing players to buy multiple games (Conquest, Birthright and Revelations) to get the full context as well as locking important canon plot points/elements behind paid DLC is bad practice and if a game was inherently good it wouldn't have to resort to such predatory business practices but I digress.

Also I guess this counts as a bump? This is a very important CRT afterall.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, it's more or less the same type of Practice that Pokemon does all the time; save for the fact that there are a lot more differences between the games compared to Pokemon. The Legend of Zelda also did that once with Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons; both of which are among the most underrated gems in the series. Plus, buying a copy of one game offers discounts on the other two games to where it's three full games for the price of two.

Also, most of Fates problems comes from the story being a mess; which I don't disagree with but it can fall into the So bad that it's good territory. The gameplay is very well designed; (It still has multiple difficulty options, the games work the way they should with the SRPG combat system and movement, and it's still always fun to ship party members).

But anyway, I agree to stick to the main topic. Three staff members agree, Eficiente says he's okay with a "Likely Low 2-C" and QuasiYuri commented but seemed vague on whether it's an agreement or disagreement and more so just a "Answering a question with a question" situation.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Well, it's more or less the same type of Practice that Pokemon does all the time; save for the fact that there are a lot more differences between the games compared to Pokemon. The Legend of Zelda also did that once with Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons; both of which are among the most underrated gems in the series. Plus, buying a copy of one game offers discounts on the other two games to where it's three full games for the price of two.

Also, most of Fates problems comes from the story being a mess; which I don't disagree with but it can fall into the So bad that it's good territory. The gameplay is very well designed; (It still has multiple difficulty options, the games work the way they should with the SRPG combat system and movement, and it's still always fun to ship party members).

But anyway, I agree to stick to the main topic. Three staff members agree, Eficiente says he's okay with a "Likely Low 2-C" and QuasiYuri commented but seemed vague on whether it's an agreement or disagreement and more so just a "Answering a question with a question" situation.

Spoiler: Musings

Don't get it twisted Pokémon's split versions are just as bad (if not worst), it only gets a free pass (despite the outdated practices) due to brand influence and nostalgia also as for LoZ Mimish Cap was my underrated gem, Link rocking sentient headwear long before a certain plumber was pretty hilarious tbh.

If three staff members plus several users agree with the upgrades, I think it should be enough but new engagement won't hurt either.

In all honestly I just don't want another repeat of other similar CRTs, where the upgrades were approved then a few days/weeks later other staff members and/or users re-downgrade the verse/characters due to the intial CRT being rushed or certain details being overlooked.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Gharnef essentially becoming a Tier 2 stonewall is kinda based tbh

 

[thetechmaster36]

Link rocking sentient headwear long before a certain plumber was pretty hilarious

link had it better, his sentient cap looked like a bird, mario only has a hat with eyes

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Mario's hat was a ghost, which is pretty neat

 

[thetechmaster36]

Mario's hat was a ghost, which is pretty neat

ghosts are not as cool as birbs

Jokes aside, I agree with this. Based af

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Bump