Fire Emblem Discussion thread: New Forum, New Mystery of the Emblem

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was thinking that at the very least, the most powerful Dark tomes like Apocalypse, or Nergal’s tome (which I can’t remember how to spell), would scale to it, since Niime just seems to be referring to powerful dark magic in general.

I remember that we removed the Divine Weapon ratings based on the fact that the power was caused by the combined might of the Divine Weapons/The Dragons, but Jahn seems to imply that the Divine Weapons alone (at their peak) are capable of causing the Ending Winter, so that would be a good supporting feat.

Honestly, there is no reason why we shouldn’t use Dragon Veins for scaling, given that it’s been accepted as a UES, and its power has been shown to physically amplify individuals.

Ereshkigal? While it makes sense on paper, it's pretty contradictory to what Nergal was doing to plot world destruction. If he was truly capable of "Destroying a planet or two with his dark magic tomes," pretty sure he would have just done so as opposed to relying on dragons from an alternate dimension. Nergal was completely driven insane where destruction was all he really desired left. And was defeated by weakened versions of the Divine Weapons. And the three dragons that came from the Dragons Gate (Same ones stated would take a whole month to destroy all of Elibe) were all individually considered stronger than Nergal. They were too much for Athos, until Ninian came in and one-shotted two of them and weakening the 3rd. And even the weakened version took considerably more effort given Nergal didn't exhaust the party unlike the Dragon. In Eliwood's route, there was a moment where people presumed Eliwood did some self sacrifice final blow, but luckily turned out to be outright. In Hector's route, Eliwood was about to be finished, but was basically rescued by Hector, and Athos exhausted himself and basically died later on. Nergal didn't really give that much threat, and it's implied (And consistent with in game estimations) that Athos using Aureola basically owns Nergal and was more than a match for him on his own. And in the end, while Niime is very wise and experienced, she also isn't omniscient. And the planetary stuff have simply been hypothesized and not truly proven or reached.

Yeah, there was a fabled human history that just said it was the Dragons who did it. But it was "Divine Weapons clashing with the Dragons" giving the impression it was a combination of both but Divine Weapons held more weight to the feat. And further emphasized by the fact that it was clearly the Dragons who were hit a lot harder by the impact. And consistent with the fact that using a Divine Weapon against a War Dragon basically equals the War Dragon getting OHKO'd. But they are loose supporting examples, and if Roy vs Zephiel is anything to go off of, the Divine Weapons can't be too much weaker than their originals or even the Binding Blade. So while I can't guarantee planet level stuff, Nergal downscaling from the Ending Winter seems like the best thing to go off of.

Oh yeah, I guess I'm getting old to fast. But yeah, Dragon Veins are still based on the Holy Bloods of the First Dragons. And by extension are Extended versions of Quintessence (The official UES throughout the entirety of Fire Emblem). But at the same time, as far as Elibe's version of Dark Magic is. There are still mysterious dark tomes with unknown effects. Niime couldn't even predict what was going to happen when she was ordered to use the spell which froze the river. Which does imply that in FE6-7, there are some odd one outs when it comes to some Dark Tomes exceeding or being beyond the control of what most magic users can output normally. It is still true that being a stronger caster generally holds more weight than using a stronger tome, hence why some character can over power an Fimbulvetr user with just a regular Fire tome, but Forblaze of course is much stronger than what any individual mage/sage is able to use normally.

 

[TheGatememer]

Ereshkigal? While it makes sense on paper, it's pretty contradictory to what Nergal was doing to plot world destruction. If he was truly capable of "Destroying a planet or two with his dark magic tomes," pretty sure he would have just done so as opposed to relying on dragons from an alternate dimension. Nergal was completely driven insane where destruction was all he really desired left. And was defeated by weakened versions of the Divine Weapons. And the three dragons that came from the Dragons Gate (Same ones stated would take a whole month to destroy all of Elibe) were all individually considered stronger than Nergal. They were too much for Athos, until Ninian came in and one-shotted two of them and weakening the 3rd. And even the weakened version took considerably more effort given Nergal didn't exhaust the party unlike the Dragon. In Eliwood's route, there was a moment where people presumed Eliwood did some self sacrifice final blow, but luckily turned out to be outright. In Hector's route, Eliwood was about to be finished, but was basically rescued by Hector, and Athos exhausted himself and basically died later on. Nergal didn't really give that much threat, and it's implied (And consistent with in game estimations) that Athos using Aureola basically owns Nergal and was more than a match for him on his own. And in the end, while Niime is very wise and experienced, she also isn't omniscient. And the planetary stuff have simply been hypothesized and not truly proven or reached.

Nergal doesn't even remember the reason why he wanted power, just that he wants as much of it as possible for whatever reason, so he doesn't even really have a goal in mind, destroying the world or otherwise.

I wasn't really referring to the "blowing up planets" stuff, but the tilting planets stuff, which iirc is around 5-C. Niime outright warns Raigh that it will happen should he misuse the power he is trying to obtain, so she isn't really hypothesizing more so warning him the consequences of misusing said power.

Yeah, there was a fabled human history that just said it was the Dragons who did it. But it was "Divine Weapons clashing with the Dragons" giving the impression it was a combination of both but Divine Weapons held more weight to the feat. And further emphasized by the fact that it was clearly the Dragons who were hit a lot harder by the impact. And consistent with the fact that using a Divine Weapon against a War Dragon basically equals the War Dragon getting OHKO'd. But they are loose supporting examples, and if Roy vs Zephiel is anything to go off of, the Divine Weapons can't be too much weaker than their originals or even the Binding Blade. So while I can't guarantee planet level stuff, Nergal downscaling from the Ending Winter seems like the best thing to go off of.

To me, it didn't really seem like it was a combination of the Dragons and the Divine Weapons, but a side effect of the power of the Divine Weapons clashing against the Dragons. If a good portion of power came from the Dragons, then the Ending Winter probably would've happened long before the Divine Weapons were even created (albeit to a lesser scale). It's only after the Divine Weapons were used that the Ending Winter happened. Jahn also says that the current Divine Weapons in FE6 cannot bring about another Ending Winter, which implies that the power of the Dragons wasn't necessary for it to happen in the first place.

To be fair, War Dragons aren't "true" dragons like Jahn, since they are artificial dragons produced on a mass scale.

Not that it matters too much either way, since at the end of the day, Ending Winter stuff would only scale to the past Divine Weapons, and should really only be used as supporting evidence otherwise.

Oh yeah, I guess I'm getting old to fast. But yeah, Dragon Veins are still based on the Holy Bloods of the First Dragons. And by extension are Extended versions of Quintessence (The official UES throughout the entirety of Fire Emblem). But at the same time, as far as Elibe's version of Dark Magic is. There are still mysterious dark tomes with unknown effects. Niime couldn't even predict what was going to happen when she was ordered to use the spell which froze the river. Which does imply that in FE6-7, there are some odd one outs when it comes to some Dark Tomes exceeding or being beyond the control of what most magic users can output normally. It is still true that being a stronger caster generally holds more weight than using a stronger tome, hence why some character can over power an Fimbulvetr user with just a regular Fire tome, but Forblaze of course is much stronger than what any individual mage/sage is able to use normally.

Honestly, that could've also just been Niime screwing with Martel

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Nergal doesn't even remember the reason why he wanted power, just that he wants as much of it as possible for whatever reason, so he doesn't even really have a goal in mind, destroying the world or otherwise.

I wasn't really referring to the "blowing up planets" stuff, but the tilting planets stuff, which iirc is around 5-C. Niime outright warns Raigh that it will happen should he misuse the power he is trying to obtain, so she isn't really hypothesizing more so warning him the consequences of misusing said power.

Originally, it was to rescue Aenir who is unknown whether or not to have died, but his over obsession with dark arts basically took control of his mind.

And well yeah, Ending Winter also pretty much "Tilted the planet." And I know it was merely a warning, but it was still a hypothetical warning that "You'll never know what to expect and the consequences could far exceed your expectations or what is thought possible" type of warning. Though, Ending Winter is a consistently known measure.

To me, it didn't really seem like it was a combination of the Dragons and the Divine Weapons, but a side effect of the power of the Divine Weapons clashing against the Dragons. If a good portion of power came from the Dragons, then the Ending Winter probably would've happened long before the Divine Weapons were even created (albeit to a lesser scale). It's only after the Divine Weapons were used that the Ending Winter happened. Jahn also says that the current Divine Weapons in FE6 cannot bring about another Ending Winter, which implies that the power of the Dragons wasn't necessary for it to happen in the first place.

To be fair, War Dragons aren't "true" dragons like Jahn, since they are artificial dragons produced on a mass scale.

Not that it matters too much either way, since at the end of the day, Ending Winter stuff would only scale to the past Divine Weapons, and should really only be used as supporting evidence otherwise.

That is true that they're merely spawns of birthed by Idenn and there aren't many real or original Dragons left, just a few people who have Dragon blood in them that causes them to age slower than normal.

Fair enough on the rest though.

 

[TheGatememer]

Originally, it was to rescue Aenir who is unknown whether or not to have died, but his over obsession with dark arts basically took control of his mind.

Yeah, we even see that he questions why he even wanted power in the first place in his death dialogue

 

[TheGatememer]

FE6 is really making me realize how much I took normal reinforcements for granted

 

[TheGatememer]

By the way, in 3H, would Fire/Ice Attacks scale to 9,400 C (Temperature of Sirius), and -270 C (Temperature of Outerspace) respectively? Given that they can burn/freeze characters (namely Sothis/Byleth) who should have this level of Heat/Cold resistance.

Honestly, sounds pretty weird, but then again, characters aren't burned by walking on lava, yet they are from fire attacks

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Outer Space doesn't eat the thermal energy of your body unlike how ice or liquid/solid nitrogen would normally. And at best, I think only the High 6-A scaled characters would. Plus fiction can be inconsistent with heat given temperature of Sirius would only require 8-C levels of heat resistance to withstand. And we don't scale characters being similar tiers to some of the other things like resistance to radiation or ability to breath in space.

 

[TheGatememer]

Oh right, didn't a bunch of characters lose cold resistance for surviving in space?

 

[Franstel]

Læraðr's design has been revealed.

Dunno why but he gave me Kingdom Heart villain vibes.

 

[Franstel]

With last chapter, since we learn that Læraðr is the Yggdrasil, it's even more proof for 2-A and higher fire emblem heroes, also would he get Large size Type 9?

 

[TheGatememer]

With last chapter, since we learn that Læraðr is the Yggdrasil, it's even more proof for 2-A and higher fire emblem heroes, also would he get Large size Type 9?

FEH is Low 1-C now, not 2-A.

Læraðr is an avatar of Yggdrasil, so it’s not inherently proof of Low 1-C. But, he still scales anyways because of Tempest stuff.

 

[TheGatememer]

Ngl, after replaying Sacred Stones, the god tiers should probably be downgraded since it’s never actually confirmed that Fomortiis caused the earthquake. Either way, it would be way less than 6-B, since at most, half of Grado was destroyed

 

[XitSign]

FEH is Low 1-C now, not 2-A.

Læraðr is an avatar of Yggdrasil, so it’s not inherently proof of Low 1-C. But, he still scales anyways because of Tempest stuff.

But, would it mean we should make Yggdrasil a part of his eventual profile with that connection? A key for the Avatar, and a key for the World Tree as a whole, which would be that Large Size?

It feels kinda integral to who and what he is, but I'm not sure how the profile should be formatted...

 

[XitSign]

Ngl, after replaying Sacred Stones, the god tiers should probably be downgraded since it’s never actually confirmed that Fomortiis caused the earthquake. Either way, it would be way less than 6-B, since at most, half of Grado was destroyed

I think we talked about this before and no one ever got around to it. I think whatever we get out of the Earthquake might be valid for a 'possibly' maybe? Because my memory was that Fomortiis' power created the Earthquake as part of a longform plan to cause the events of the game to happen, but that's coming from memory, I'd need to check everywhere for valid scans before we use that.

Frankly all the SS profiles could use touch-ups anyways, so all the more reason to do it.

 

[TheGatememer]

But, would it mean we should make Yggdrasil a part of his eventual profile with that connection? A key for the Avatar, and a key for the World Tree as a whole, which would be that Large Size?

It feels kinda integral to who and what he is, but I'm not sure how the profile should be formatted...

Ye, it would be a part of his profile. It would be like: Low 1-C, higher as Yggdrasil or something. (He would have almost the entire cosmology as standard equipment funny enough)

 

[TheGatememer]

I think we talked about this before and no one ever got around to it. I think whatever we get out of the Earthquake might be valid for a 'possibly' maybe? Because my memory was that Fomortiis' power created the Earthquake as part of a longform plan to cause the events of the game to happen, but that's coming from memory, I'd need to check everywhere for valid scans before we use that.

Frankly all the SS profiles could use touch-ups anyways, so all the more reason to do it

Yea frankly a lot of profiles could use more polishing, since they haven’t been changed since like, 2017. I haven’t even gotten around to revising the current Three Houses profiles, which should probably be done soon

 

[XatorNova]

Ngl, after replaying Sacred Stones, the god tiers should probably be downgraded since it’s never actually confirmed that Fomortiis caused the earthquake. Either way, it would be way less than 6-B, since at most, half of Grado was destroyed

I am taking a peek at the script again, and what it says is that in order to stop the earthquake, Lyon and Knoll needed the Sacred Stone of Grado that contains Fomortiis's soul, which was considered a stronger power, so perhaps that can be used

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ngl, after replaying Sacred Stones, the god tiers should probably be downgraded since it’s never actually confirmed that Fomortiis caused the earthquake. Either way, it would be way less than 6-B, since at most, half of Grado was destroyed

Funny thing is someone calculated the result to be Low 5-B, but it is a good point that it was mainly a foretold Earthquake and not sure if there is any proof that Fomortiis caused it. Was implied he could have stopped it, but that could have also been deception to manipulate Lyon.

 

[TheGatememer]

I am taking a peek at the script again, and what it says is that in order to stop the earthquake, Lyon and Knoll needed the Sacred Stone of Grado that contains Fomortiis's soul, which was considered a stronger power, so perhaps that can be used

Maybe, but either way, it's probably not 6-B, and would probably only be a likely, or possibly, since we don't actually know if the Dark Stone had the power to stop it.

Funny thing is someone calculated the result to be Low 5-B, but it is a good point that it was mainly a foretold Earthquake and not sure if there is any proof that Fomortiis caused it. Was implied he could have stopped it, but that could have also been deception to manipulate Lyon.

That calc assumes its a Magnitude 12 quake, which uh, doesn't seem right

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Another minor note, is on this calculation. Given the calculated weight combined with the escape velocity of Sirius. This would required a minimum KE that is like 55 Teratons of TNTe. And given this is an extremely casual feat, it would further be back up for Tier 6 god tiers + Javelins of Light being absolutely consistent.

 

[TheGatememer]

By the way, I think villages being destroyed is a good backup feat, since it's pretty clear from the backgrounds and sprites that the village isn't just being raided; it's outright reduced to rubble basically instantly

 

[HoodedEnigma]

There are also plenty of other games where the enemies can flat out destroy large structures and obstacles that are part of the terrain in one shot like the bandits at the start of Path of Radiance who destroy those houses or the Invaders in Fates that can destroy pretty much any structure in your My Castle to dust so I don't believe it's that far-fetched

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There are also plenty of other games where the enemies can flat out destroy large structures and obstacles that are part of the terrain in one shot like the bandits at the start of Path of Radiance who destroy those houses or the Invaders in Fates that can destroy pretty much any structure in your My Castle to dust

I have made a calculation back in 2017, but it got rejected.

 

[HoodedEnigma]

Too bad, Though yea I guess getting a definitive size of anything on the map for FE can be pretty hard. Some games a large mountain range can take up only 1 tile, making their scale compared to the houses or castles on the same map hard to determine.

 

[TheGatememer]

Nintendo Direct tomorrow, so hoping for Jugdral Remakw, but ready to don my clown wig

 

[StekFence]

Just believe

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Switch 2 launch title

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Switch 2 (Or whatever they're calling it) will not be mentioned. It will be the September direct at the very soonest we will here about the name or announcement; with the release being March 2025 at the earliest. There could be some games teased for it, but I expect an FE4 remake to more so come out for Switch. If they're working on something but saving it for next gen, it's probably be for something brand new, as opposed to a remake.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

I know, I just don't expect to see the fe4 remake here, especially since Nintendo sees it as one of their bigger titles now