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I informed Matt on his wall
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Fire Emblem: Azura Upgrade
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
- Status
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I disagree.
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You might wanna say a little more than that, at least for the sake of having your arguments on this thread
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Bump
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Bump
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By the way, do you know when the other character is getting released? The guy whose stated to have power to destroy all Dream Worlds? Because it might be a good idea to wait for him to come out.
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I don't know anything about someone destroying the Dream World (although Loki had attempted to use the Tempest to do so just because her plan of using it for her own purposes was foiled), but Alfador will be mentioned by Loki and Thorr (another new character) on the 17th
Might wanna take this to the discussion thread or my wall
Might wanna take this to the discussion thread or my wall
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HammerStrike did quote Azathoth's original statement on my wall over at community central. This is what he said.
The arguments in regards for Azura not getting the 2A I will quote from Azzy:
"Can you please show me where she builds these infinite worlds, though? Because all the dialogue about the dream adult Azura stops seems to be talking about a single dream world, and the area Loki said had infinite worlds is fine when this mission ends at the end of the video."
Really, further context around this would be appreciated, as I can't assume all of this from the video you provided without further knowledge of the game."
That's fine, but like I said, where is the further context that explains the world that Loki is in at the start is the same world Azura created? Because that's not stated in the video.
If JSW also has that info, that would definitely be appreciated.
I'd again like to ask simply where the area that has infinite worlds is stated to be Azura's dream. "If the worlds are infinite, as I was told... Any world that I could wish for exists here" implies the worlds are already there, and we only see Azura get rid of one of these worlds in the mission linked in the OP. At least, I assume that's what happens.
Also, in the same page this quote is from, the very next lines are:
"Did things become this way because of me? Is it because I hoped for things to be different?"
"Oh, Azura, no. You don't have that kind of power."
The best this conversation seems to imply is that the remnants of the forebears' power within Azura was used by Loki to cause a Tempest that made worlds mix and scatter. I genuinely don't see where "Azura created the infinite multiverse" is coming from when provided with only this information.
Is there not just some really direct statement someone could link about all these worlds being created by Azura? Dishing out 2-A this easily seems dubious without something concrete."
" Okay, but again, where is Azura shown to create/destroy this whole thing? She is flat out stated to be incapable of causing a Tempest messing with a bunch of worlds by her future self. Is there something that hasn't been posted that says this whole area is strictly Azura's dream world? Does she create it in a scene that hasn't been linked, yet?
Too much is missing right now for me to confidently say anyone looks 2-A, here."
" That's fine and all, but Azura is directly stated by herself to not have the kind of power to cause such a thing. Being 2-A, she would objectively have "that kind of power".
Loki simply says that the place she and Azura are in has infinite worlds. The world young Azura dreamed up was a single one of these worlds. When it vanishes at the end of the mission, the area that Loki said had infinite worlds still remains. Young Azura herself also suspects that any world she can dream up could be there because there are infinite worlds, not because she created infinite worlds. She does not even know if there are, as she says "as I was told".
I am sorry, but there is a severe lack of context and evidence for just handing out 2-A to this character. If there is a scene where this entire dream realm is destroyed by someone, or Azura is explicitly stated to have created the whole thing (direct evidence of which would override the statement of her older self of her not having the kind of power to mess with multiple worlds), then it would be really helpful to see it. What has been provided just does not seem like enough, with both the video and the dialogue posted suggesting that Azura did not create these infinite worlds."
"This comes from the video you yourself linked in the OP.
Note the exact line "It is as I expected. It is as I suspected. This world is the world of my dreams. I must put an end to it." This happens around 8:04 if you really need a timestamp.
Notice how the mission ends with Azura confronting her younger self to "put an end" to the world she dreamed up, which is the world they were fighting in. Notice how the place where Loki conversed with young Azura is still completely fine and intact, and how a conversation even happens there, afterwards.
Again, notice how Loki reiterates statements such as "There is an infinite number of worlds here, my dear... Any world you can conceive of must exist.", which implies these versions all exist because there is an infinite amount of them, not because Azura created infinite dreams.
Notice how she also says "You can summon any version of yourself you desire", which, because this statement comes immediately after the previous one, suggests that there are endless Azuras because there are endless worlds, not because the single dream world Azura made when she was a child contains all these infinite Azuras."
Basically what Azy is saying that without further context, Azura and the others can not considered be 2A without any further context.
The same argument is being used against the 2A upgrade.
" With all due respect, I don't need you to explain yourself better.
I just need proof of any of the following:
The arguments in regards for Azura not getting the 2A I will quote from Azzy:
"Can you please show me where she builds these infinite worlds, though? Because all the dialogue about the dream adult Azura stops seems to be talking about a single dream world, and the area Loki said had infinite worlds is fine when this mission ends at the end of the video."
Really, further context around this would be appreciated, as I can't assume all of this from the video you provided without further knowledge of the game."
That's fine, but like I said, where is the further context that explains the world that Loki is in at the start is the same world Azura created? Because that's not stated in the video.
If JSW also has that info, that would definitely be appreciated.
I'd again like to ask simply where the area that has infinite worlds is stated to be Azura's dream. "If the worlds are infinite, as I was told... Any world that I could wish for exists here" implies the worlds are already there, and we only see Azura get rid of one of these worlds in the mission linked in the OP. At least, I assume that's what happens.
Also, in the same page this quote is from, the very next lines are:
"Did things become this way because of me? Is it because I hoped for things to be different?"
"Oh, Azura, no. You don't have that kind of power."
The best this conversation seems to imply is that the remnants of the forebears' power within Azura was used by Loki to cause a Tempest that made worlds mix and scatter. I genuinely don't see where "Azura created the infinite multiverse" is coming from when provided with only this information.
Is there not just some really direct statement someone could link about all these worlds being created by Azura? Dishing out 2-A this easily seems dubious without something concrete."
" Okay, but again, where is Azura shown to create/destroy this whole thing? She is flat out stated to be incapable of causing a Tempest messing with a bunch of worlds by her future self. Is there something that hasn't been posted that says this whole area is strictly Azura's dream world? Does she create it in a scene that hasn't been linked, yet?
Too much is missing right now for me to confidently say anyone looks 2-A, here."
" That's fine and all, but Azura is directly stated by herself to not have the kind of power to cause such a thing. Being 2-A, she would objectively have "that kind of power".
Loki simply says that the place she and Azura are in has infinite worlds. The world young Azura dreamed up was a single one of these worlds. When it vanishes at the end of the mission, the area that Loki said had infinite worlds still remains. Young Azura herself also suspects that any world she can dream up could be there because there are infinite worlds, not because she created infinite worlds. She does not even know if there are, as she says "as I was told".
I am sorry, but there is a severe lack of context and evidence for just handing out 2-A to this character. If there is a scene where this entire dream realm is destroyed by someone, or Azura is explicitly stated to have created the whole thing (direct evidence of which would override the statement of her older self of her not having the kind of power to mess with multiple worlds), then it would be really helpful to see it. What has been provided just does not seem like enough, with both the video and the dialogue posted suggesting that Azura did not create these infinite worlds."
"This comes from the video you yourself linked in the OP.
Note the exact line "It is as I expected. It is as I suspected. This world is the world of my dreams. I must put an end to it." This happens around 8:04 if you really need a timestamp.
Notice how the mission ends with Azura confronting her younger self to "put an end" to the world she dreamed up, which is the world they were fighting in. Notice how the place where Loki conversed with young Azura is still completely fine and intact, and how a conversation even happens there, afterwards.
Again, notice how Loki reiterates statements such as "There is an infinite number of worlds here, my dear... Any world you can conceive of must exist.", which implies these versions all exist because there is an infinite amount of them, not because Azura created infinite dreams.
Notice how she also says "You can summon any version of yourself you desire", which, because this statement comes immediately after the previous one, suggests that there are endless Azuras because there are endless worlds, not because the single dream world Azura made when she was a child contains all these infinite Azuras."
Basically what Azy is saying that without further context, Azura and the others can not considered be 2A without any further context.
The same argument is being used against the 2A upgrade.
" With all due respect, I don't need you to explain yourself better.
I just need proof of any of the following:
- Azura creating the place that contains infinite worlds.
- Azura destroying the place that contains infinite worlds.
- Azura's dream world being the same as the one that contains infinite worlds.
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"Hee-hee. What you say is true. But this world contains an infinite number of worlds within it..."
No idea why "this world" shouldn't be the Dream World, but it also uses different wording than the "connected to infinite worlds" used every time they describe the multiverse as a whole. There's absolutely zero reason for Loki to suddenly start talking about the multiverse while explaining the Dream World
Also, about the part of Azura "not having that kind of power", it literally just means Azura can't summon the Tempest, which seems more like a worthiness thing than anything else
No idea why "this world" shouldn't be the Dream World, but it also uses different wording than the "connected to infinite worlds" used every time they describe the multiverse as a whole. There's absolutely zero reason for Loki to suddenly start talking about the multiverse while explaining the Dream World
Also, about the part of Azura "not having that kind of power", it literally just means Azura can't summon the Tempest, which seems more like a worthiness thing than anything else
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I think the Azathoth comment makes sense.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
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- Thread starter
- #54
Hans says that:
"Adult Azura in the beginning of the chapter already mentioned she made her own dream world and ended it when she was young, leading into Young Azura also being able to do such since Loki already tried to get Young Azura to help her with those dream world creating/ending powers."
"Adult Azura in the beginning of the chapter already mentioned she made her own dream world and ended it when she was young, leading into Young Azura also being able to do such since Loki already tried to get Young Azura to help her with those dream world creating/ending powers."
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"But this world contains an infinite number of worlds within it."
"There is an infinite number of worlds here, my dear..."
This world Ôëá Multiverse, Here Ôëá Multiverse
They literally just mean "This World" and "Here"
"There is an infinite number of worlds here, my dear..."
This world Ôëá Multiverse, Here Ôëá Multiverse
They literally just mean "This World" and "Here"
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Bump
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People aren't even agreeing with me any more, but old comments of mine posted by another person.Matthew Schroeder said:
I have ascended.
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The same thing I thought, last time.
This is still a discussion of the same few minutes of gameplay and dialogue, it seems. It's not like anything new has come to the table.
This is still a discussion of the same few minutes of gameplay and dialogue, it seems. It's not like anything new has come to the table.
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Your choice. I'm just not interested in having the same several-dozen comment discussion of absolutely nothing from the first thread.
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I think we just need a reason as to why Loki goes off topic in the middle of her conversation about the dream world not once, but twice, just to talk about the multiverse for a few seconds and then immediately get back on topic in both casesJustSomeWeirdo said:
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Those statements do indicate a 2-A structure, and there's indeed multiple timelines that are often referred to as worlds. But I do still see Azathoth's point about wanting to here more than two statements. That being said, Alfador's "Destroy all worlds" statement does sound legit, but we should perhaps wait for him to be released in FE Heroes.
Most of the staff have pretty much said they're neutral, but I do know the majority seem to agree with the upgrade.
Most of the staff have pretty much said they're neutral, but I do know the majority seem to agree with the upgrade.
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If there's a character that will later destroy all infinite worlds in the dream world, maybe it's just better to wait for that.
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No need to wait for anything, nothing else will come about the Dream World, Alfador has nothing to do with the Dream World
If two statements indicate the Dream World being 2-A, then the Dream World is 2-A, we aren't just going to say "Well, Intelligent Systems didn't say anything else about the Dream World after concluding the Adrift storyline, so it doesn't matter"
If two statements indicate the Dream World being 2-A, then the Dream World is 2-A, we aren't just going to say "Well, Intelligent Systems didn't say anything else about the Dream World after concluding the Adrift storyline, so it doesn't matter"
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So from what I gather, now the consensus on this 2-A character is either positive or neutral.
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I will again point out that the place Loki said contained infinite worlds within it was not the same place that young Azura destroyed. Loki is still standing there when the mission is over, and a conversation takes place there. Considering adult Azura was trying to put an end to young Azura's dream world in the mission (which seems to happen when it's over), I still have no idea why these are being treated as the exact same thing.
I really don't feel like restating everything discussed in the last thread.
I really don't feel like restating everything discussed in the last thread.
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Young Azura never destroyed the dream though, the following Tempest Trial even takes place inside of it, with the boss even being a Mikoto from Azura's dream who Loki had summon the Tempest
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Can you link this, to me?
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Before We Met.., which takes place after the Adrift paralogue, even features Mikoto: Caring Mother as the boss, which is the Mikoto that Azura created in her dream
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That's what I thought you meant.
What is the statement that specifies this as the same dream world? Because young Azura says "If the worlds are infinite, as I was told... Any world that I could wish for exists here.", and this is right after adult Azura mentioning worlds mixing and scattering in ultimate chaos. Not to mention Loki states in Adrift that young Azura can pull alternate versions of people from other worlds.
What is the statement that specifies this as the same dream world? Because young Azura says "If the worlds are infinite, as I was told... Any world that I could wish for exists here.", and this is right after adult Azura mentioning worlds mixing and scattering in ultimate chaos. Not to mention Loki states in Adrift that young Azura can pull alternate versions of people from other worlds.
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Adrift maps are included to the Tempest Trial, meaning the Dream World is in the mix, it's also never mentioned in Adrift that it was going to be destroyed, just that Young Azura can't use it to hide from the real world forever and that she'd one day have to face reality
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"Azura? It is as I suspected. This world is the world of my dreams. I must put an end to it."
Wasn't this used as justification for Azura destroying the dream world? Or was that something like "Azura destroyed her old dream world before this all began"?
Regardless, watching through the scene again, Loki immediately says "Tell me--anything you want. Any wish can become real. There is an infinite number of worlds here, my dear... Any world you can conceive of must exist. You can summon any version of yourself that you desire."
When throwing in Azura's dialogue from Before We Met..., I really can't see how contextually, the dream world in Adrift isn't just supposed to be one of these infinite worlds. Assuming it is all worlds without any direct statement seems to require far greater speculation that I can't see this dialogue supporting.
Wasn't this used as justification for Azura destroying the dream world? Or was that something like "Azura destroyed her old dream world before this all began"?
Regardless, watching through the scene again, Loki immediately says "Tell me--anything you want. Any wish can become real. There is an infinite number of worlds here, my dear... Any world you can conceive of must exist. You can summon any version of yourself that you desire."
When throwing in Azura's dialogue from Before We Met..., I really can't see how contextually, the dream world in Adrift isn't just supposed to be one of these infinite worlds. Assuming it is all worlds without any direct statement seems to require far greater speculation that I can't see this dialogue supporting.
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