Fire Emblem 7/6 and Warriors Upgrades Thread.

[Kyle_Ramos]

I am sorry for editing stuff before the thread was porperly terminated, i assumed everyone agreed with the changes.

Anyways, i still refuse to ignore the method of speech, it must have been phrased like that in the Japanese version for a reason. and as Marco said, it is at least stronger than 2 or more Holy Weapons. (So the bare mininum would be 13.298 peta)

If anything, the way he says how "The Holy Weapons" created the Ending Winter and "Stronger than The Holy Weapons" does heavely imply its stronger than all of them combined. I care more about the petatons than anything right now.

 

[ALRF]

I'm quite confused here.

Is High 6-A accepted?

 

[Dark649]

I don't like how the things went here, Kyle just did the changes without Wierdo to express his fully opinion and they were done poorly, also Kyle annoyed Wierdo, Matthew, Repuzzan and me, so i banned him and reverted most of his badly edits.

 

[Marco_Shark]

Wait.

Did Kyle have anything to do with the High 6-A rating?

I thought Medeus was the one that suggested every weapon was already high 6-A individually.

 

[Dark649]

No, it was Kyle that originally suggested them and i need to discuss it better with Wierdo and suggest new edits since Kyle and Modeus ones were done too fast without further analysis.

 

[Marco_Shark]

Not to be pushy, but im sure Medeus was the one that said every weapon was already high 6-A.

Anyways, i hope everything gets resolved soon.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

I'm fine with what Medeus suggested

 

[Marco_Shark]

Should we hold a vote count for the High 6-A ratings here or should another thread be made?


Anyways, are FE6 God Tiers (Fae, Idunn, Roy and Zephiel) getting another revision because of the quote? Because while the dragon dude might not be saying they are stronger than the 8 of them combined, it is at least logical to assume they are at least stronger than two of them.

 

[Dark649]

I tried to divide the mid end, Medeus used the high-end of said calc and i got 6-A+ for every divine weapon user and High 6-A for the other ones, also i think Fae is not comparable to Idunn, but to the normal divine weapon user since she can't defeat Iduun on her own. Yahn said that the weapons are not strong as they were in the past, so dunno if Lilina, Cecilia and Gwendoline scales, lastly Ninian was stated to be fragile and in my runs she gets shotted by Bolting.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Well, Dragon Form Ninian still fought the Fire Dragons

Human form Ninian is definitely weak though

 

[Marco_Shark]

Were did you get that Fae cant beat Idunn? Stats? Wait, have you been using stats to justify your points of view? This is ridiculous.

You cannot say Ninian or Fae are weak because "in my runs she gets one shotted by X"!

Anyways, do we all agree that at least the God tiers (Idunn, Roy and Zephiel) get High 6-A and that There is no reason to take the middle end since the calc itself makes it clear the higher end is "far more likely".

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, a well built up Fae could beat Idunn in two hits; one hit if she scores a critical hit. Additionally, she is canonically thought to be comparable to the Divine Weapons. Also, what was the Mid End again? I only saw a high end and low end in the blog link for the combined Divine weapons; which High End was implied to be far more likely.

Also, yeah, I didn't necessarily change the tiers, I mostly just cleaned up the Visual Editor text and removed the vague statements and reverted the range ratings. The Tiers were kind of mixed at the moment. But I'll look at the blog again.

Edit: Oh yeah, I nearly forgot about the Divine Weapons statement about loosing their power. I think Reppuzan actually made a mention of that a while back; didn't removing the seals restore the Divine Weapons to their former power? While I can guarantee that the Divine Weapons are less destructive, I'm unsure if it literally means they much weaker now that they were back then. If I'm wrong about that and the Divine weapons truly lost their power, then maybe downgrades for Divine Weapons users including the FE7 cast and Fire Dragon might be in order.

 

[Marco_Shark]

Dont get me wrong, but taking the middle end of a calc because the Holy Weapons (Not the SoS) were stated weaker by an unknown amount but taking the weakest posible power inctease (stronger than one of the Holy Weapons and not even 2 or the 8 of them) when the SoS was stated stronger than the (Pre-Weakening) Holy Weapons by an unkown amount, its flat out wrong.

Tell us exactly what tier YOU want and give your reasoning.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Marco I don't think that tone was quite necessary; "Flat out bias" is inappropriate to use against staff. Just wait for him to explain when he gets the chance.

 

[Marco_Shark]

Understood.

 

[Marco_Shark]

bump

 

[Marco_Shark]

Bump

 

[Dark649]

Ok, if the High-End is the more appropriate choice, then i will have no problems with High 6-A Divine Weapon Wielders [Since 5 Petatons is the Lower End] and those that can have these weapons and those that fought evenly with them, which are: Roy, Lilina, Fae, Zephiel, Yahn, Dragon Idunn, Cecilia, Gwendolyn, Eliwood, Lyndis, Hector, Nino, Nergal, Fire Dragon, Dragon Ninian and Athos.

The only problem is Yahn saying that Roy and the others should keep the Divine Weapons because they might be not as strong as they were in the past, later Yahn states to have regained his old strength and more as a Fire Dragon, but is then killed by the party. I do not think Nergal [Who was gathering quintessence], The Fire Dragons, Zephiel, Dragon Yahn and Idunn [Who should be as strong as she was in the past] are that weak, they should require the weapons at nearly full power to do something to them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I agree with that. I needed some time to think it over as well. While it may be stated that "Divine weapons appeared to have lost some of it's power," that can sometimes be a metaphor to say the power is more controlled rather than they became weaker combat wise. Additionally, there's no statement that the Sword of Seals was that much weaker; same with Idunn.

Additionally, Zephiel still fought evenly with Roy, despite using a theoretically weaker divine weapon that is thought to be on par with other Divine weapons. Yeah, there's also Nergal, who devourers souls and adds them to his power; doubt he'd be that much weaker than the prime divine weapons either. It was already discussed that fodder War Dragons should not scale to the Dragons Gate Dragon; since those typically get stomped by Divine weapons and can be killed with normal weapons.

Nino never really used a divine weapon, so she shouldn't really scale or have a seperate key. And the obvious thing is human characters should only have a Tier 6 rating while using the Divine Weapons. So I suppose everyone who can use a Divine Weapon could have a seperate key.

So I guess High 6-A is alright for the Divine Weapons? And then every human character who can use one gets a seperate key. And obviously, this scales to the god tier bosses; Idun, Fire Dragon (Fire Emblem 7), Dragon Ninia, and maybe Fae (Fire Emblem)? Just wanted to know if these are the proper conclusions before the edits are made.

 

[Dark649]

It was likely an hack Nino with a divine weapon, but that doesn't count. I will later do the edits. The last thing is the possibilty of Ninian taking Bolting [Since everyone can take attacks in a battle], but Ninian story wise is considering a fragile individual [As dancer and was stated to not adapt well in Elibe], same for Idunn since she was needed to be protected normally, both main power comes fron their dragon forms.

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm honestly not sure if we can give every character who can possibly use the Divine Weapons since there's no in-story reason for them to.

For instance, both Lleu and Sophia can wield Apocalypse with enough grinding, but there's no canonical statement that they have.

I'm not particularly against this, but it's just something to point out.

 

[PaChi2]

Im with Repp.

 

[Marco_Shark]

Well, they are capable of weailding and using it, amd since its an optional "form", i think its fine. If we were writing stuff like "canonical weilder of..." then there would be a problem.

Does anyone have anything else to add before the thread finally reaches its end?

 

[Marco_Shark]

bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose Reppuzan does make a good point, but what about Lilina? She is a relatively popular/notable character in the game being Hector's daughter. And in canon, is Roy's love interest. She does have her Forblaze key, but should it be removed?

As for Ninian, I actually noticed that yes she is typically seen as fragile. However, as a playable character, Nils lended her some of his energy, so she had the durability to survive enemy encounters. Nils on the other hand does seem to have relatively decent dodging ability, and is notably at least as durable as some of the gameplay wise glass cannon characters. So, while I'm unsure and relatively neutral on whether we should scale durability, but I think either durability scales, or Massively Hypersonic reaction speed should be removed. In my opinion, I find it strange for one stat to scale but not the other.

 

[Marco_Shark]

Well, you can always just put "At most" and save yourself a ton of trouble finding other stats for her, she is considered weaker than the rest of the cast, but she IS still a unit fighting on the same battlefield and fighting (In this case, dodging) same enemies as the rest.


And yes, she should have the "Form", its a fact she CAN weild it, so its a valid option.

But as long we dont claim stuff like "Lilina is the canonical wielder of Forblaze", we should be 100% fine, and after all, its completely optional.

 

[Dark649]

I agree with Reppuzan and i agree with 9-C Peak Human Base Ninian, Fae, Jahn and Iduun. Their main power is their Dragon Forms.

The only canonical characters that receives Sacred Weapons are: Eliwood, Hector, Lyn, Athos, Nergal, Zephiel and Roy.

The edits before closing this thread are: Upgrade 6-A characters to High 6-A, Remove Lilina Forblaze Key, Add end game Fae stats and remove MHS reactions from Ninian and Idunn.

Note: Joshua keeps his 6-B rating since he canonically receives Audhulma from his dying mother.

 

[Marco_Shark]

Wait...Joshua is from FE8.

And, did we agree or disagree on the Optional Holy Weapon form for those who can weild it stuff?

 

[Dark649]

I was using Joshua as an example to add keys to those that canonically uses them.

 

[Marco_Shark]

Oh, i get it now.

Sorry about the ruckus dude.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Marco

Forblaze and Aureola will probably end up on Athos' profile, but not anyone else really.

 

[Marco_Shark]

I am pretty sure Lilina can use Forblaze if you grind, but i think its fine if we only look for the canon Holy Weapon weilders.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Marco

I'm aware of the fact that any character can wield any weapon available to their class if they grind long enough but:

1) It'll be a pain to add a weapon to every Elibe profile that they may or may not have canonically used.

2) There's no actual guarantee that they used it.

 

[Marco_Shark]

i agree.

Its fine if we stick to canon.

 

[Dark649]

One last question Repp, do you think Dragon Fae canonically helped Roy against Dragon Idunn or he defeated her by himself?.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dark

Considering the fact that Fae's recruitment is required to get the Golden Ending, I think it's probable that Fae helped out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, so Fae scales to the divine weapons as well? I don't mind removing Lilina's key, the human forms for Elibe Dragons get speed downgrade; and the Divine Weapons and God tiers get upgraded to High 6-A. Those the conclusions?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Medeus

I was under the impression that the power of the Divine Weapons was dispersed over time and the Ending Winter was the fault of both the weapons AND the dragons. As a result, they should probably stay at 6-A, with the Sword of Seals and Eckesachs being At least 6-A, possibly High 6-A for being stronger than them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, I suppose that seems fair.

 

[Marco_Shark]

They were weakened by an unknown amount, tho. And the Sword of Seals was never stated to have gotten weaker.

Yahn´s speech does imply the main cause of the Ending Winter were the Divine Weapons, while yes, they clashed with the dragons, the dragons before that didnt show that kind of power ever.

Not to mention the Holy weapons utterly STOMPED the dragons, they were never equal in any way.

I think High 6-A bevause of the high end of the calc would be more accurate.


I mean, the only thing that could help your case is Athos´s statement that the fire dragons could destroy the continent (which is pangean sized) in under a month, but even then, that is at most 6-A over quite a long time, which pales in comparison while compared to the bare mininum output of the Holy Weapons. (High 6-A), and wouldnt stop God Tiers from reaching clear cut High 6-A by multipliers.