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FE6 Downgrade 2: The Squeakquel

JustSomeWeirdo

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It would appear, during a break of mine, that the ratings for Binding Blade were upgraded back to the exact same spot i once downgraded, with the exact same calc even


Once again, we are scaling the Divine Weapons to the full might of the Ending Winter (divided by 8, of course), implying that only the weapons were responsible for the event. However, if you were to play the game or even read the chapter scripts online, you'd know we're told otherwise from a non-biased source who was present during the event.

“The most powerful and potent were chosen out of the humans to wield their newly crafted weapons. They came and charged this temple. However, when the immense power of the weapons and our power clashed near Bern, something unexpected happened.”-Jahn, Chapter 24

Jahn, in his lore dump, tells Roy and co. the true story of the Ending Winter, and that the Ending Winter was caused by both the Divine Weapons AND Dragons, but of course, I went through this exact same thing in the original downgrade, so I'll get to my next point

I don't think the Ending Winter should scale to anyone to begin with.

“The laws of nature started to collapse. Snow began to fall in mid summer. Stars shone in the middle of day…”

"When the order of nature collapsed, we Dragons took a fatal blow. The forces of nature weakened, and it became difficult for us to retain our original Dragon form. Therefore, we decided to seal our powers in gemstones and take human form instead.”

Jahn doesn't describe the Ending Winter as simply changing the planet's rotation or mere weather manipulation like our ratings think it is, but rather nature itself being warped by the magical power of their clash, more akin to Reality Warping than anything else, to be honest.

Also, before anyone tries using this to give Roy Reality Warping or something, read this

“Do not worry. The weapons do not seem to have as much power as they did in the past. They are unable to bring about such a disaster again.”

Even if you were to say the weapons in their prime scaled to the Ending Winter, even if you were to chalk it all up to reality warping, literally none of it actually scales to the weapons as they are now, and should be changed back to Unknown.

YouTube Source (No Commentary)

Dialogue only ver.

Or read the script online
 
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JustSomeWeirdo

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I also expect a certain someone to tell another certain someone to comment here, most likely contradicting the narrative

Not naming names, you know who you are
 

JustSomeWeirdo

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I don't even think the Divine Weapons should have those abilities in their prime, either, since the way it's described sounds a lot more like it only happened due to how much magical power is gathered into one place at any given time, rather than an ability of the weapons themselves
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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IIRC, these translations are actually pretty outdated. There are more recent translation patches out there that have more accurate dialogue. The stars shining mid day, or snow falling mid summer I heard are like bad translations. The more accurate basically says "Summer became Winter, Day became Night". I know some people are trying to interpret that as the Earth being flipped; which is possible but still doesn't quite tackled the other points yeah.

Also, I agree it's more or less the combined might of Divine Weapons and Fire Dragons as opposed to just the Divine Weapons given it says the clash of it was the cause. But it was discussed last time the Divine Weapons did hold more weight overall due to the nature of them flat out destroying the Dragons, and the fact that even weakened states are consistent with outright one-shotting Fire Dragons. But this is basically a Unity based feat, making it still hard to judge individually. I pretty much agree the feat cannot fully scale even to the Binding Blade regardless of whether or not it held most of the weight overall. Even if we assumed that the combined might of the 8 prime Divine Weapons + Binding Blade at least holds half the feat; that's still vague guess work.

The Fire Dragons burning the Continent within a month is also super vague to qualify. There could be a calculation required to scorch the continent, but we need to divide it by 3 given it took 3 of them to do it. And also taking the time frame into a count, as destroying a town one building at a time is only building level. The most generous thing might be dividing the energy required to scorch the continent by how many seconds are in a month; or in 3 months given 3 dragons scorch it in a month. It should not really fully scale to anyone either given that even with 4 Divine Weapons, they still struggled to take a weakened version down. And Ninian is a glass cannon, she collapses after one attack and is otherwise extremely fragile despite possessing great magic powers. Though, Fa and Idenn due to be Divine Dragons should logically be above them. But the three Dragons Gate Dragons are like a lot stronger than any of the War Dragons commonly seen throughout FE6.

I'm also unsure about Randal or Champions of Yore cross scaling. I know they appear in Marth's Timeline and fight enemies there, but we don't know how strong they were before entering the timeline. It's not like we use feats from Ike's timeline to scale to Marth's timeline via Priam.
 
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it is implied that Randal and his group just appeared in Valentia, since they are stated to have travelled from continent to continent. And I could be remembering wrong, but I think there was also something about them being in unfamiliar territory, which further supports this. And saying that Randal, who is just some random cavalier is far stronger than the wielders of the Divine Weapons (while they are weakened), seems a bit wrong, to say the least, since they are

I don’t really have anymore to say about the Einherjar than I’ve already said.

Priam is a bit of a different case, as he is a descendant of Ike, and may not even be from Tellius, or even been to Tellius at all. not to mention, the Ragnell is pretty broken down so it’s definitely nowhere near as strong as it used to be.

But that’s all I have to say, really. As I’ve said already, I agree with the downgrade.
 
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Posting from an off-site user:

"These arguments not only use outdated fan translations, but also use headcanon to downplay the verse severely.

1.- For this debunk, i will be using the original script for FE6 and FE7

(http://web.archive.org/web/20040409051952/http://homepage1.nifty.com/miruka/fe/fe6/index.html and https://www.pegasusknight.com/mb/fe7/st_map31.html)

I will be using DeepL as it is considered one of the most reliable Japanese to English translators around. I will be also posting individual kanji so the meaning of the word is clear.


2.- In two separate occasions, the Sword of Seals is stated to NOT be a Divine Weapon. But a separate blade that is superior to the combined power of all 8 Prime Divine Weapons in context (Japanese does not use plurals the same way English does, it is reliant on context, and in both times the subject of conversation are the weapons being used together, if you find an statement on the original japanese script that claims Sephyn and Yahn were only talking about one, i recommend it to be posted.)

2.1 - Yahn's statement directly mentions the divine weapons, which the SoS is not, if you think that the Sword of Seals no longer scales, i would welcome any statement or direct proof that proves this claim.

2.2 - In two separate occasions (by the old legends of Bern Niime manages to read and by Yahn, the Ending winter is stated to have caused Day to become night. Since no amount of climate is going to move these celestial bodies and that it has to have been on a timeframe shorter than 24 hours, the complete ending winter should have the same Moon Level energy as the one the earth employs normally in 24 hours to spin.


3.- Assuming the Dragons clashing against the divine dragons had a major part on its impact is wrong as the Dragons are severely inferior to them.

The dragons before the Divine Weapons were already being overwhelmed by Human's superior reproductive capabilities, this is also stated by Niime and Yahn, The main reason why the Dragons forced Iduun to become the dark dragon and make war dragons. (This fact is nowhere in this "downgrade thread" for some reason.)

This is obviously before the divine weapons were made because the argument of being overwhelmed by numbers is irrelevant when there were literally only 8 heroes, not to mention the weapons were LITERALLY made to crash with dragons. So it has more to do more with their individual characteristics than the dragon's strength.

The sheer fact that they can expel such amount of energy hitting anything clearly implies AP.

4.- The FE7 and FE6 Divine Weapons are also missing a key.

Nergal no-sold a blast from Forblaze and could have killed Durandal!Eliwood. (the same Eliwood that one-shot Ninian.), then, at the start of chapter 31, Athos magically enhanced the divine weapons to the point Eliwood states "It is much better than the last time i've had it". Also, Athos considers Sol Katti to be comparable to the other weapons, so Lyn should scale to anything the others can.

4.1 while stated to have lost the power to break the laws of nature and literally deprive the earth and sky of their strength (check the imgur), the magically enhanced Divine Weapons are still strong enough to:

4.1.1 - One shot Ninian, who one shotted two fire Dragons. This is also backed up by Roy's team defeating the War Dragons (who managed to turn the tables on the humans who could reproduce very quickly) and Yahn, who is a full blooded fire Dragon enhanced by being on the Dragon Temple.
(In case anyone argues Roy could have gone alone to the dragon temple, Selphyn states on the previous chapter to bring only his most trusted allies to the final battle.)

4.1.2 - Defeat Nergal, who took minor damage from Durandal!Eliwood and Forblaze.

4.1.3 - Defeat and take attacks from the Fire Dragons, who were stated to be able to turn the entire continent to ash over time.

Conclusion -

1.- There is Zero evidence that disproves the Sword of Seals being weaker at any point or not scaling above the full power of a divine weapon on its prime at the very low end and the entire ending winter on an actually reasonable "high end" based on the evidence provided. Spinning the earth in any reasonable time frame to be impressive is 5-C on top of all the other effects the Ending Winter had.

2.- Due to simple power scaling, the dragons does not scale to the divine weapons and were clearly overwhelmed by them.

3.- The FE7 Divine Weapons even if they had lost their power to break the order of nature and the energy of the planet and the sky (again, check imgur if you think i am making this up) is incalculable, it is clearly at least superior to the wiki approved feat of Anankos "fixing Grima's destruction in the future timeline feat over time" (which is At least 7-B) in Fates.

Turning something to ash is several times higher than normal destruction and no matter how long you take, you cannot destroy a continent without at least being able to destroy a mountain (Aka, At least 7-A), so any assumption of the FE7 divine weapon users being 7-C or anything as low as that is downplay. Also, they require a separate key for Divine Weapons and Magically/Athos enhanced Divine Weapons. Not to mention scaling to Ninian and Nergal's feats.

4.- This is all from the original japanese script that you can freely consult if you doubt the authenticity of any of this."
 

JustSomeWeirdo

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Still describes it as reality warping and still implied to be what happens when enough magical power comes together at once

Literally missing the entire point of how it isn't even AP in the first place, Mikoto's "debunk" is just reinforcing my argument

Also, be my guest and try to quantify a dragon taking a month to burn down Elibe with durability negating attacks
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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First of all, the translations do not appear reliable. And it's mentioned time after time that a human translator is far more reliable than any translation tool out there. Especially considering the translations used in the scans contradict some of the claims above or just even have bad translations in general. Like "Divine Generals" and also the word "Divine Weapon" was singular in some sentences. Also, just because "Divine Weapons" was plural, doesn't mean the Sealed Sword is superior to the combined might as opposed to being superior to them individually.

Second, a lot of that is a repeat of things conflicted. First of all, there's current doubt about the Divine Weapons scaling from the feat even if altogether; making some doubt about the Binding Blade fully scale too. The Dragons were overwhelmed initially due to sheer numbers; all the humans basically bombarded them with group efforts while also just trying to wear them out. It's basically like a swarm of bees trying to fight a grizzly bear. But the tables were turned when Idenn became the Dark Dragon who is able to reproduce Fire Dragons at a faster than normal rate against her will. But when the numbers became more equal, the tables were clearly turned in terms of raw power. And yes, the Divine Weapons are overwhelmingly stronger than the War Dragons, but it's still a group effort on both ends and it required basically thousands and possibly millions of War Dragons to do the feat.

Also, I really do not need to explain the comparison of the Dragons Gate Fire Dragons to the fodder War Dragons again. Literally even a weakened DG Fire Dragon was a major thread to the combined party even with 4 Divine Weapons on hand. And was considered more dangerous than Nergal. Which sounds counter intuitive since Nergal terrorized Nabata single handedly a lot more than Bern ever could with all their dragons being revived. But here's the thing, Ninian is an obvious glass cannon; she collapses after using her attack even once, and that one attack killed 3 End Game bosses that would have overwhelmed Eliwood and Athos, and even that last weakened one was still a stronger boss than Nergal. Also, "Burning to ashes" cannot be compared to violent fragmentation and other values that are more blunt force trauma based. It's just simply scorching the surface until it's covered in black dirt/soot. Which is more of a heat based, but it's something inferior to melting let alone vaporization in the context of continental burning. Not to mention, it still needs to be factored that it required 3 Fire Dragons in peak condition and that it was going to take a whole month; meaning it's mostly just fires spreading. That's like trying to scale a forest fire feat to someone who smoked a cigarette and left it on the grass for the fire to spread and burn down the forest. That's not a Tier 7 cigarette lighter.

The Anankos part is false equivalency and actually has a 7-B rating that came from other parts. The "Restoring damage" shouldn't even be considered an AP feat. His actual 7-B rating came from a vortex calculation which was checked as legit. The 3 Fire Dragons needs a blog with a proper calculation and I highly doubt the results will be too great.

Also, where does "Athos enhancing the weapons" come from? I did not see that in the script. Or at least I don't have time to watch the entire video it better if you gave a specific timestamp. But it sounds more like the seal was loosened rather than Athos being able to enhance them. And even so, it's not like his empowerments are anywhere near as potent as the primal Divine Weapons or Binding Blade feat. There are more recent translations on more recent translation patches that still do not mention what is being implied on that list.
 
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Antvasima

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What JSW and Medeus have agreed about can probably be applied, but it is best to ask for a bit more input first.
 
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