[FINALS] Asuna Kamakura & Javen vs Laser Frogman and Dr. Hecate [GRACE]

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

See the tourney hub for more cool stuff
​

Match Conditions
Speed will be equalized for all matches
Characters are only allowed specified optional equipment
Starting location is New York City
Starting distance is 10 meter

Character A	Character B	Key A	Key B	Votes
Asuna Kamakura	Javen	Adventurers Tournament Arc, Post-Limit Break	Super Form with Crimson Sword	0
Laser Forgman	Dr. Hecate	Combat Stage 4	Golden Hecate Unit, Super Mega-Mega Mech	0
Inconclusive				4

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Alrighty, congrats to the two teams who made it to the finals! For the prize for the winning team, these glorious warriors shall get... Bragging rights? I dunno

 

[Rayfire]

Alr, so, I won’t be able to respond until exams are over. If I’m going to debate vene and froggy at the same time, I’ll wanna be at my best cause it’s basically gonna be like this for me

I’ll kick things off once I’m ready Good luck to both teams, and I’ll make sure to get a BANGER theme song for this.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Alr, so, I won’t be able to respond until exams are over. If I’m going to debate vene and froggy at the same time, I’ll wanna be at my best cause it’s basically gonna be like this for me

I’ll kick things off once I’m ready Good luck to both teams, and I’ll make sure to get a BANGER theme song for this.

So it is all fair, I won’t make any big messages to start with and I’ll see what froggy plans, but regardless of what happens, it shouldn’t be so much to respond to by the point of exams finishing

 

[SSB64]

Asunaven FTW.

 

[Froggytron]

Alr, so, I won’t be able to respond until exams are over. If I’m going to debate vene and froggy at the same time, I’ll wanna be at my best cause it’s basically gonna be like this for me

Good luck with exams! Slaying good grades in +-one week requires one's full attention

I’ll kick things off once I’m ready Good luck to both teams, and I’ll make sure to get a BANGER theme song for this.

You should, this threat will go down in history I as well won't spam here anything besides an entrance opening until you return

 

[SSB64]

Good luck with both exams and the tournament Rayfire! My vote's already gone to you, so you're already off to a great start.

 

[Froggytron]

Good luck with both exams and the tournament Rayfire! My vote's already gone to you, so you're already off to a great start.

"Asunaven FTW" is a vote? Do you know that rules are against voting before any arguments are made...

 

[SSB64]

"Asunaven FTW" is a vote? Do you know that rules are against voting before any arguments are made...

It doesn't exactly matter. Even after the arguments, I'm voting Asunaven anyways.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

It doesn't exactly matter. Even after the arguments, I'm voting Asunaven anyways.

It's kinda sorta forum rules to have at least some decent reasoning for voting for a character in a thread.

 

[SSB64]

It's kinda sorta forum rules to have at least some decent reasoning for voting for a character in a thread.

As I've already addressed before, I do. Frogate shouldn't even be in the Finals to begin with.

 

[Froggytron]

As I've already addressed before, I do. Frogate shouldn't even be in the Finals to begin with.

A personal grudge / wanting someone's DQification isn't a valid threat argument, even kindergarten kids would know that

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

A personal grudge / wanting someone's DQification isn't a valid threat argument, even kindergarten kids would know that

It’s alright, what’s done is done, all that is important now is the match itself, not what came prior

 

[SSB64]

A personal grudge / wanting someone's DQification isn't a valid threat argument, even kindergarten kids would know that

That's not even a personal grudge. No one as of yet has come up with a valid reason for Frogate being the Finalists other than contradictory nonsense.

 

[Froggytron]

Anyway, as for how Frogman opens this, Frogmen always have their energy vision (sort of as a 6th sense to see the amount of energy stockpiled in objects, and in which parts of them). Javen is supposed to have entire habitable planets inside his Super-Hat, and with just 10 meters of distance, Frogman would instantly react by creating a 'bumper' ASAP. The soonest method is the usage of his commander status (at peak Stage 4 having even hundreds of Spagmatrons at direct command), where Frogman summons most of them in front of his team, all commanded to manifest their 3 Digi-Shields to grant a worthy protection even against series of enormous planets expanded directly to their faces.

It's very likely Frogman will try to set up other defensive measures as well (given that Hecate in-character starts with Golden Scanners, a powerful Info Analysis, which was confirmed by Vene she would try to right away share to Frogman via their shared cell telepathy), as the knowledge of (Supermassive Star creation, or knowledge of Asuna's rewind, precog, time stop and etc) will stack pressure. Frogman will also start brainstorming plans on 'strategies and moves best fit to use against their individual moves', and will be ready to deploy them when Asuna and Javen pick & use their moves, not to mention Hecate's massive intellect will help him greatly in making plans into even greater depths, they essentially can think together a single brain, preparing for what comes next

 

[SSB64]

It’s alright, what’s done is done, all that is important now is the match itself, not what came prior

Probably not the person to be saying this considering that it's your own characters here.

Pius, considering what came prior completely alters now, I'd definitely say it's important. Otherwise, we can have broken characters in our tournaments, and there's no rules against it, only being a problem if the owner of the tournament wants to eliminate them rather if they're actually broken or not.

 

[Rayfire]

Spoiler: Le epic

Mark my words... This DRILL will open a hole in the universe! And that hole... Will be a path for those behind us! The dreams of those who have fallen, the hopes of those who will follow!

Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, DRILLING a path towards tomorrow!

And that's Tengan Toppa! that's Gurren Lagann!

OUR DRILL IS THE DRILL… THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll keep this relatively short, considering i've heard from vene that froggy is sick, and i obviously don't want a totally overwhelming message, responding to that is very demanding lol

Alr, so first things first, i think it's important to jot down that frogman in particular is likely to be holding back on these two. Both asuna & javen are hero's in their own seperate ways. Javen saved mr portal from captivity and is renowned as the "Everywhere hero". Asuna doesn't really have a similar title, but there have been numerous times where she's put her life on the line for her friends, or gone out of her way to help others despite having no actual obligation to do so. Plus, asuna kills a lot of things that hunt humans, and she typically only acts in self defense. She won't attack anyone without a good reason.

Therefore, i think these two would have very low sin-meters (Alongside the fact that, with their strategy against Cobalt & Destiny, Asuna and javen prioritized the lives of those on earth above all else, throwing it towards another star system so that the planet wouldn't get destroyed by the ensuing chaos, and obviously keeping it habitable in the process.)

For the Conceptual Fear thing, the duo also have a solid counter to this beyond asuna's fear manip resistance, and her social influencing to encourage javen to fight. Froggy states this in Jack vs Frogman:

To make things more interesting, main stage 4 Frogman holding the ballon activates Conceptual Fear (how big is Jack's sin-meter btw? The fear works somewhat even at low sin-meters, but can be mostly overcome with strong willpower in such a state):

• Conceptual Fear - Manual activation. Upon detecting Frogman by any sense, the more Sin-Meter the observer has, the more severe Fear Manipulation is caused to them. Fear Manip. resistance is nearly not enough to prevent the symptoms (slowness, stun, tendency to run), as this power creates own consciousness in beings cells and very molecules, causing them to tremble in fear. Even Inanimate objects are forced to feel this, by gaining temporary instinctive intelligence.

And this is obviously further mitigated due to their low sin meter, making the effects largely minimal. But the main point is that willpower can allow it to be "Mostly" overcome, which both asuna and javen (ESPECIALLY the former) have. This is consistent for reasons i'll talk about later.

That's a good question asked In FU, willpower is precious, as it is sometimes taken as another energy^2 source, able to feed like EXP in the short-term, it behaves as a superior energy compared for example to an electrical one. 'Energy gathering (EXP Collection)' sections cover it greaty on the F.P. page.

It's also why it influences with Soul Crystal cores, when you repeat that 'they are built from energy^2 and meant to store energy^2'. Melee hits carrying willpower on them (behaving as short term energy^2) messes with them and forms cracks, it's sort of like an exploit.

But it's nothing that would save you from attacks or mitigate deadly effects, Stickmen can run as determined as they can and still die You need to have super-rare means to convert willpower into energy^2 and store it (which only the two strongest powers in FU reality show being capable of) and from these storages create attacks and defensive powers, in absolute majority of scenarios still requiring prep time

Ironically enough, asuna does some strikingly similair things to this because of how her world works And this is why i think she is key to winning this fight.

In PoW, Magic is produced by a human's, well, sheer force of will (It's influenced by cognitive ability, experience, & XP Level too, but mostly just willpower & the third one) and essentially turns their will into reality, which includes specific skills, which essentially checks the box for creating attacks and defensive powers.

It is also commonly used as an energy source in the verse. I mean, why use hands to build things when you can move things telekinetically with your willpower alone? This is the main reason why many countries and cities, like the capital in adellis, are so extremely developed despite being a middle-ages type of world. Obviously there is also the fact that there are plenty of skills that take the form of energy blasts too.

This effectively means that, since all of asuna's skills are created from her will, she isn't limited to just melee attacks, as she fits the mold for creating attacks with very similair means to how energy^2 is produced according to this

To summarise:

• Asuna can turn her will into reality (Like converting willpower into energy^2 to then create attacks as specified)
• Willpower in PoW is an energy source, for both regular & combative usages (And energy^2 is, well, energy )

Which i think is very good grounds for verse equalization to come into effect. Effectively meaning that pretty much all of asuna's attacks would be capable of cracking frogman's soul crystal, as well as technically being a superior energy force, since there are very few frogmen that can do this sort of thing.

On the red laser manipulation page, it does list ways frogman can counter it, such as reflecting it back with his own willpower, but it still certainly isn't something that can be simply negated, and even if frogman has superior willpower, asuna is just gonna keep pushing harder till she gets through. She's said so herself

Who cares if you know more about magic than me, or if you aren't scratched by my attacks? My fighting spirit is gonna keep surging... UNTIL I CAN OVERCOME ANYTHING!!!"

(This is also how he she activated her limit break later on in the fight that she said this for reference, it's not just a sick line lol)

Im a little salty that i didn't find this during the 7-A tourney, we might have avoided that 6 page debate entirely lol

So I think I can say with confidence that this is pretty big for asuven, and gives them advantage, at least over frogman specifically. I’ll cover Hecate too once I get around to it, but obviously frogman will be the biggest and most haxiest challenge for the duo here

 

[Rayfire]

Anyway, as for how Frogman opens this, Frogmen always have their energy vision (sort of as a 6th sense to see the amount of energy stockpiled in objects, and in which parts of them). Javen is supposed to have entire habitable planets inside his Super-Hat, and with just 10 meters of distance, Frogman would instantly react by creating a 'bumper' ASAP. The soonest method is the usage of his commander status (at peak Stage 4 having even hundreds of Spagmatrons at direct command), where Frogman summons most of them in front of his team, all commanded to manifest their 3 Digi-Shields to grant a worthy protection even against series of enormous planets expanded directly to their faces.

It's very likely Frogman will try to set up other defensive measures as well (given that Hecate in-character starts with Golden Scanners, a powerful Info Analysis, which was confirmed by Vene she would try to right away share to Frogman via their shared cell telepathy), as the knowledge of (Supermassive Star creation, or knowledge of Asuna's rewind, precog, time stop and etc) will stack pressure. Frogman will also start brainstorming plans on 'strategies and moves best fit to use against their individual moves', and will be ready to deploy them when Asuna and Javen pick & use their moves, not to mention Hecate's massive intellect will help him greatly in making plans into even greater depths, they essentially can think together a single brain, preparing for what comes next

I’ll reply to this soon btw

 

[SSB64]

Therefore, i think these two would have very low sin-meters

All I'll say is that, iirc, this seems to be countered by the fact that if you attack a Frogman, your sin-meter shoots up, or something like that. The same would go for if they attack Hecate.

Not to mention, simply bypassing a resistance won't help since, as far as I'm concerned, resistances in the Froggy Universe are usually stacked in the later Stages. He counters Asuna's time travel with his own, and has such high intellect that he'd basically know nearly every possible move that Asuna could feasibly make.

 

[Rayfire]

All I'll say is that, iirc, this seems to be countered by the fact that if you attack a Frogman, your sin-meter shoots up, or something like that.

Well, in the context of an actual fight, it’s assumed that asuven have a reason to defend themselves so that both teams actually, y’know, fight, so if they have this as their intent it wouldn’t increase their meters by very much at all, which the sin-meter page also mentions

 

[SSB64]

Well, in the context of an actual fight, it’s assumed that asuven have a reason to defend themselves so that both teams actually, y’know, fight, so if they have this as their intent it wouldn’t increase their meters by very much at all, which the sin-meter page also mentions

Ah. Fair enough. That probably only applies if Frogate are the ones to make the first move though. I'm pretty sure that would count as self-defense, though not if Asunaven attack first.

Plus, as I edited my message to add on before, Frogman, from what I know, has billions of years of culminated combat experience and adaptions. No doubt in my mind that the opponents he's faced have similar, if not, outright superior Hax to what Asuna brings to the table.

For a comparison as to how much of a disadvantage Asuna seems to be at here, Asuna was able to eek out a Technical Win against a Stage 3 Android in Spagmatron in spite of Spagmatron's Hax and abilities.

Spagmatron < Stage 3 Frogman < Stage 4 Frogman

Plus, while this is claims, Hecate exists alongside him, and Venefica said themself that Cobalt, the same character who stalemated both Asuna and Javen at the same time, was a bad matchup compared to Hecate.

.....Yeah.

 

[Rayfire]

Ah. Fair enough. That probably only applies if Frogate are the ones to make the first move though. I'm pretty sure that would count as self-defense, though not if Asunaven attack first.

Plus, as I edited my message to add on before, Frogman, from what I know, has billions of years of culminated combat experience and adaptions. No doubt in my mind that the opponents he's faced have similar, if not, outright superior Hax to what Asuna brings to the table.

For a comparison as to how much of a disadvantage Asuna seems to be at here, Asuna was able to eek out a Technical Win against a Stage 3 Android in Spagmatron in spite of Spagmatron's Hax and abilities.

Spagmatron < Stage 3 Frogman < Stage 4 Frogman

Plus, while this is claims, Hecate exists alongside him, and Venefica said themself that Cobalt, the same character who stalemated both Asuna and Have at the same time, was a bad matchup compared to Hecate.

.....Yeah.

Well, this is an entirely different Asuna compared to before, she not only has better stats, but better, well, everything but she’s always been used to skill/experience disadvantages and still winning… Furthermore this specific frogman has only been around for 26,000 years, not billions lol

Plus, willpower (And PoW magic itself) seems to be the perfect counter to frogman’s moves, as they would be considered a ‘superior energy force’. I went into detail on this in my reply. And neither of them have fought anyone quite like Javen before, and even those digi-shilds could only do so much against 4-A AP or a ‘superior’ energy force (I’ll also go into detail on this once I reply to froggy)

I got plans against Hecate too (Which I won’t post rn cause I don’t want this thread to get flooded for froggy too much) so I wouldn’t jump the gun just yet. This is far from over

 

[Javenplayz253]

which was confirmed by Vene she would try to right away share to Frogman via their shared cell telepathy

️
Question:
Do they like see through the minds of peeps or...?

Frogman will also start brainstorming plans on 'strategies and moves best fit to use against their individual moves', and will be ready to deploy them when Asuna and Javen pick & use their moves

Huh.


OK.

Jave would probably start with slashing his corrupted sword creating projectile towards Frogcate

 

[SSB64]

Furthermore this specific frogman has only been around for 26,000 years, not billions lol

I'm a novice in regards to the knowledge of the Froggy Universe. I'm just going off of both what I've heard in tournaments, and what little I've seen from the pages.

Plus, willpower (And PoW magic itself) seems to be the perfect counter to frogman’s moves, as they would be considered a ‘superior energy force’. I went into detail on this in my reply. And neither of them have fought anyone quite like Javen before, and even those digi-shilds could only do so much against 4-A AP or a ‘superior’ energy force (I’ll also go into detail on this once I reply to froggy)

Same here. Frogman likely has a counter to this, though since I'm not an expert, I'll refrain.

I got plans against Hecate too (Which I won’t post rn cause I don’t want this thread to get flooded for froggy too much) so I wouldn’t jump the gun just yet. This is far from over

We'll see. It doesn't look promising, especially given how much I've given Frogate flack for being too OP of a duo for tournaments. Hopefully, Asunaven change my mind on that and pull through to win.

 

[SSB64]

While a neutral statement, can we just take a moment to consider that, who I consider to be The Big Four of this Wiki (Sorry OLH), are all in one fight (Granted it was through rigged/bias/sloppy means, but still)?

 

[Yoriichi999]

literally me watching this entire thing:

 

[Rayfire]

Anyway, as for how Frogman opens this, Frogmen always have their energy vision (sort of as a 6th sense to see the amount of energy stockpiled in objects, and in which parts of them). Javen is supposed to have entire habitable planets inside his Super-Hat, and with just 10 meters of distance, Frogman would instantly react by creating a 'bumper' ASAP. The soonest method is the usage of his commander status (at peak Stage 4 having even hundreds of Spagmatrons at direct command), where Frogman summons most of them in front of his team, all commanded to manifest their 3 Digi-Shields to grant a worthy protection even against series of enormous planets expanded directly to their faces.

The army of spagmatrons could prove useful, but keep in mind that both asuna & javen can make many clones of themselves to compensate in terms of numbers, and the digi-shilds are also only specified to work against High 7-A maximum, and even if we ignore the fact that javen is 4-A, asuna by herself is 19.6 billion times stronger than the digi-shilds limit. So unless frogman can spawn that many spagmatrons (I don't think that many even exist lol) then DRILLING through the shields should be no problem at all

Trying to stop either asuna or javen with them would probably go something like this especially since asuna's magic is definitely very similair to energy^2 as i've explained above.

Spoiler: Digi-Shild explanation

"Digi-Shilds" - Spagmatron can use the power of his core to summon an inverse Digi-shield around his opponent, moving alongside him. While active, this full-body forcefield welcomes all enemy attacks in and guarantees they will land, acting as limited Probability Manipulation, while also absorbing opponent's attacks flying through it up to High 7-A mile of damage. Upon reaching it, the shield explodes inwards, disappearing. Furthermore, ranged attacks entering it show a 60% rate of duplicating themselves | It doesnt count into Digi-shields limit at High-EXP bar.

Of course, the spagmatrons have Digi-Shild redirect too, but i don't think we've ever seen them reflect hits THIS much stronger than them, and even if they can, Asuna & Javens danmaku options could leave the vast majority of them without it for pretty much the entire fight due to the cooldowns.

It's very likely Frogman will try to set up other defensive measures as well (given that Hecate in-character starts with Golden Scanners, a powerful Info Analysis, which was confirmed by Vene she would try to right away share to Frogman via their shared cell telepathy), as the knowledge of (Supermassive Star creation, or knowledge of Asuna's rewind, precog, time stop and etc) will stack pressure. Frogman will also start brainstorming plans on 'strategies and moves best fit to use against their individual moves', and will be ready to deploy them when Asuna and Javen pick & use their moves, not to mention Hecate's massive intellect will help him greatly in making plans into even greater depths, they essentially can think together a single brain, preparing for what comes next

Asuna is obviously not nearly as smart as these two, but she's no stranger to intelligence disadvantages, plus her own info analysis, while minor, can let her kow that hecate & frogman definitely shouldn't be messed around with, and i think javen will think the same thing thanks to frogmans fear thing.

While outsmarting them will be a challenge, i think asuna could definitely use her & javen's abilities to be able to defend and keep them on the move while asuna deduces their weaknesses like she's done many times before. Plus, without type 1 acausality i can see on either hecate or frogman's profiles, [Playback] could still be effective in preventing asuna from making any mistakes if she's in a pinch, and while hecate or frogman could probably figure out what happened they can't really prevent it from happening

I imagine frogman will be absolutely flabbergasted when he see's that this random 15 year old human can make so much energy^2 on the spot too lol, while i don't think he would just not plan anything i think that will render their usual strategies moot as well, since they seem to usually fight the red stickmin who can't produce such energy, as much willpower as they have to run away

Also, asuna's fear manipulation might also make hecate second-guess herself too, since she lacks any resistance to it Of course, frogman has Empathic Manipulation he can use on hecate, but it's never described as a constant or permanent thing on his profile, and asuna's fear manip has worked even against extremely serious opponents like the random NPC from the adventurers tournament, so any anger hecate would feel, for example, would in turn be nullified. So even if it did work, asuna just needs to glance at her once more for it to work again

With those reasons i think the explanation is too vague for frogman's ability to help his opponent out here. It will probably be like the max situation where frogman was forced to teleport hecate far out of range, but then she just isn't nearly as useful and frogman is on his own Constantly bringing hecate's will to fight back over and over would probably end up being a liability more than anything even in the best case scenario too...

(Lets refrain from replying for now so that froggy has time to reply once bro is back. It's starting to get a little flooded and we wanna avoid this )

 

[Froggytron]

Spoiler: Le epic

Mark my words... This DRILL will open a hole in the universe! And that hole... Will be a path for those behind us! The dreams of those who have fallen, the hopes of those who will follow!

Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, DRILLING a path towards tomorrow!

And that's Tengan Toppa! that's Gurren Lagann!

OUR DRILL IS THE DRILL… THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You make Frogman seem like the final boss of this tourney everyone has to connect in order to beat him

Alr, so first things first, i think it's important to jot down that frogman in particular is likely to be holding back on these two.

„holding back„ is far from the truth here, Frogman won't hold back, namely after Hecate tells him via telepathy all the arsenal of Super Javen and Asuna. Frogman won't attack until he is attacked (when facing low sin meters), but given that he expects to be attacked anyway, he will already deploy many defenses and plan the best reply to each individual move his opponents can make. The moment Frogman is attacked, he already has the best way to react (and Frogman is ready to instakill low sin-meters when they attack him / get in the way of clearing high sin-meter beings, viz Sin Vision page), namely as he is able to rewind them later when all business is done.

For the Conceptual Fear thing, the duo also have a solid counter to this beyond asuna's fear manip resistance, and her social influencing to encourage javen to fight. Froggy states this in Jack vs Frogman: And this is obviously further mitigated due to their low sin meter, making the effects largely minimal. But the main point is that willpower can allow it to be "Mostly" overcome, which both asuna and javen (ESPECIALLY the former) have. This is consistent for reasons i'll talk about later.

Mostly valid, but there are several ambiguities here:
Jack could barely overcome it with willpower as he was over million of times stronger in stats than Frogman, combined with the fact he was a low sin-meter. This means only Super Javen can do something similar here (with the extreme effort put into moving), yet Asuna will still be held back by a solid interference of the fear at the molecule level and stunning

To summarise:

• Asuna can turn her will into reality (Like converting willpower into energy^2 to then create attacks as specified)
• Willpower in PoW is an energy source, for both regular & combative usages (And energy^2 is, well, energy )

It is not superior in the slightest (never on any FU page or in the story is mentioned willpower can enhance your attack to be superior), but if this is truly how Asuna's verse works with magic, these are fair points that might crack the soul crystal a bit on each hit (if the magic created from willpower is somewhat still connected with Asuna as she fires it, some spells clearly not connected might still do nearly nothing).

Not sure if Asuna will benefit from this though, namely on Frogman, as Frogman’s body does not have any soul crystal in it, when destroyed it simply creates it while teleporting it universes away in the same time fragment (where it regens a new full frogman body, within minutes), then the Frogman returns to fight once more. Meaning, in the actual battle this would just help with the Spagamtrons, which Frogman can keep rewinding back.

Im a little salty that i didn't find this during the 7-A tourney, we might have avoided that 6 page debate entirely lol

You don't have to be, 7-A Asuna’s attacks still didn't hit Spagmatron’s soul crystal in most scenarios, his 10 layers of outer defensive carried him in the fight.

So I think I can say with confidence that this is pretty big for asuven, and gives them advantage, at least over frogman specifically. I’ll cover Hecate too once I get around to it, but obviously frogman will be the biggest and most haxiest challenge for the duo here

„advantage“ in terms of being capable of making bits of damage on soul crystals. But the advantage of their overall arsenal is yet to be debated for many pages.

 

[Froggytron]

Plus, as I edited my message to add on before, Frogman, from what I know, has billions of years of culminated combat experience and adaptions. No doubt in my mind that the opponents he's faced have similar, if not, outright superior Hax to what Asuna brings to the table.

For a comparison as to how much of a disadvantage Asuna seems to be at here, Asuna was able to eek out a Technical Win against a Stage 3 Android in Spagmatron in spite of Spagmatron's Hax and abilities.

Spagmatron < Stage 3 Frogman < Stage 4 Frogman

Plus, while this is claims, Hecate exists alongside him, and Venefica said themself that Cobalt, the same character who stalemated both Asuna and Javen at the same time, was a bad matchup compared to Hecate.

.....Yeah.

I'm a novice in regards to the knowledge of the Froggy Universe. I'm just going off of both what I've heard in tournaments, and what little I've seen from the pages.

Same here. Frogman likely has a counter to this, though since I'm not an expert, I'll refrain.

We'll see. It doesn't look promising, especially given how much I've given Frogate flack for being too OP of a duo for tournaments. Hopefully, Asunaven change my mind on that and pull through to win.

This is certainly almost correct (despite hating it, you might be 3rd after Vene in FU knowledge). Frogman has 20K+ years of experience with powers developed for billions of years and modified for millions of years, Frogman's 20K+ years come from mastering these (which he is slowly given as he grows in the Frogman stages). That is also why Red Laser alone screws with most other powers in it's undeniability.

 

[Froggytron]

️
Question:
Do they like see through the minds of peeps or...?

Hecate has a similar mindset to Frogman and IQ even surpasses him in some aspects, by giving Hecate some of his Frogman's cells (which cell communicate remotely, via how Frogman controls his clones remotely), Hecate's bio-adaptive mech allows her to read the information and share hers through it, their powerful minds make it appear as their 2 brains were connected as one. Further, Frogman cells allow to remotely send energy, so for example, Hecate with much energy can send some to tired Frogman through it easily.

Jave would probably start with slashing his corrupted sword creating projectile towards Frogcate

I have troubles in finding a list of Crimson Sword's hax on Javen's page, what hax does the launched projectile carry, can it power null on touch and so on? How big is the projectile?

 

[SSB64]

This is certainly almost correct (despite hating it, you might be 3rd after Vene in FU knowledge)

If I'm gonna win matches, I gotta know what my opponents are capable of after all.

Speaking of, there's a Battle of the Block(s) Tourney going on, and I'm helping the maker out in searching for contestants. They're even accepting characters weaker than the tier, but have an ability that then at 8-B to 8-A. Surprisingly, a base Android Soldier with the Green Laser Pistol and charged lightsaber would qualify due to both being 8-A despite the soldier itself being High 8-C.

I'll be joining too with a character I was inspired to make thanks to you, so I highly recommend you join too.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Alr, so first things first, i think it's important to jot down that frogman in particular is likely to be holding back on these two. Both asuna & javen are hero's in their own seperate ways. Javen saved mr portal from captivity and is renowned as the "Everywhere hero". Asuna doesn't really have a similar title, but there have been numerous times where she's put her life on the line for her friends, or gone out of her way to help others despite having no actual obligation to do so. Plus, asuna kills a lot of things that hunt humans, and she typically only acts in self defense. She won't attack anyone without a good reason.

I should point out that it isn't exactly out of character for an FU fighter to kill a low-sin meter in a fight, as Hecate herself is killed in this thread by Gunnix. As long as they have a superior rewind the death later, it's still well within their authority to kill whoever stands in their way, especially since Javen and Asuna are making the first attacking move.

So I think I can say with confidence that this is pretty big for asuven, and gives them advantage, at least over frogman specifically. I’ll cover Hecate too once I get around to it, but obviously frogman will be the biggest and most haxiest challenge for the duo here

Alright, enough of the Hecate underestimation She's been dogged on the whole tourney, and I'm putting my foot down

It's been said a million times that Cobalt is smarter than Asuna in all facets, but that is basically meaningless now that Hecate is in the ring. Her feats of intellect completely stomp Cobalt's, she's at least a few hundred times smarter. She makes plans and applies her powers in far, far greater ways as well. The only thing Cobalt has on Hecate when it comes to their brains is her pure fighting skill, which is decently above Hecate's but her thinking speed/attack accuracy and sheer creativity make up for this. Regardless, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say she's at least equal with Asuna in that regard based on their similar combat feats. Honestly, she may even be better since I don't think Asuna has fought multiple above genius battle robots built specifically to kill with intense battle intuition at once and still won Mid-Diff, only getting a disadvantage when Triton joined (as well as earlier facing Helios, Selene, Suru, and Ekaterina all at once after they'd destroyed part of her Battle Army first. All four of them are reeeaally good fighters). Heck., even her massive Slimy Mk. 2 mech had acrobatics compared to a master among master at Martial Arts, Akumo, and impressed him a lot. The Golden mech, being further advanced and WAY smaller, more agile, and nimble, is obviously way past that stage of fighting ability. Frogman and Hecate easily hold the skill advantage.

Another thing Hecate has on Cobalt besides intellect, is both willpower and stamina. The same thing which let Asuna and javen have higher odds over Cobalt and Destiny won't work again. Off the bat, even base Hecate has higher stamina feats than Javen. She often spends multiple days with basically no breaks working on stuff, spent a week straight finishing up her Slimy Dream Mech, can build a whole bunch of her Battle Drones and Battle Army with minimal robotic helping, and spent many days on the run from Monarch (after being beat up, fighting many battles in a row included against a 7-B mech while she was 8-B, after multiple tortures and losing her only friend ever at the time, Alexis, and crashing a large car through multiple trees and being shot) and still persisted. Stamina is a little more nebulous, but considering she's wearing her Golden Mech here she has a triple upgraded Starry Slimy System which regens stamina at a very good rate and feats of not tiring during all those intense robo/Dragon Hero matches. Tomo, a regular dude, also wore the mech and didn’t get tired after facing blood sea soldiers and flying around for a while, so that’s something Her ability to take bodily punishment also seems comparable to Asuna considering the stuff at Monarch.

This also obviously ties into her own supernatural willpower, which imo seems comparable to Asuna's if not actually better overall. Not only was she bullied as a kid (actually her entire life really, more time being bullied than Asuna, which is apparently a large factor to her will), but she also survived the Mind Breaker without wavering, a device which literally shatters the minds of those subject to it, to the point that multiple previous patients were driven so mad that they straight up cannibalized each other and then themselves after just seconds of it. Hecate survives at least a minute and is virtually the same afterwards, it stuns Craven, who administered it, and Alexis, who thought she’d never see Hecate again after she was taken to the machine. That is bare minimum comparable to Asuna's feats of surviving madness-inducing things, if not even beyond that when you add everything which happened to Hecate in quick succession afterwards. She remained a bit goofy after ALL of this. And this Hecate is older, so you can throw the death of Slimy in there too as well as Star being hunted down by mobs and Ekaterina rallying people to hate/go after her during the Dragon Heroes stuff, Star being mind maniped to destroy the City and everyone turning on her AGAIN and trying to kill her son, and going through the horrors pregnancy and childbirth has on you. She's had it way worse than Asuna ever has so far and persisted alarmingly well. She may not be able to convert her will into Magic or anything, but when it comes to this specifically I believe that Hecate comes out on top until Asuna gains further willpower feats.

Also, asuna's fear manipulation might also make hecate second-guess herself too, since she lacks any resistance to it Of course, frogman has Empathic Manipulation he can use on hecate, but it's never described as a constant or permanent thing on his profile, and asuna's fear manip has worked even against extremely serious opponents like the random NPC from the adventurers tournament, so any anger hecate would feel, for example, would in turn be nullified. So even if it did work, asuna just needs to glance at her once more for it to work again

• Limited Body Control, Light Manipulation, & Fear Manipulation (Scared off a group of bandits by making her eyes glow through a mana surge.)
• Enhanced Fear Manipulation (Could scare a huge knight that was far larger than herself, though she needed to use Luck Magic in order to bypass their cold and fearless nature to use this effectively.)

Yeah no, the fear thing isn't happening again. Willpower is a thing and should keep Hecate going (the pivot to Frogman along with heavy writing and planning workloads and stress/work apparently made me neglect all of this in the max match clearly, and probability stuff didn't help anyway but luckily Asuna doesn't have that nearly as close to Max, all she has is Fortune, and the help button was genuinely crazy with its reach) And I don't see a reason why Hecate wouldn't adapt to it in this case anyway, since the Golden Mech can adapt to abstract effects like the Blood Sea stuff, this doesn’t feel like it’s beyond the scope of the Golden Adapter.

Also it's not exactly wrong for me to say she actually does resist fear given what she does with her Slimy Dream Mech, and that thing doesn't exactly make her any braver than she is when she's wearing this mech and she could persist through krakoDaio's glare which is similar to Frogman's conceptual fear at full blast. The whole Blood Sea Army also has an inherently terrifying presence which she persisted through (and if you wanna go down that route, Tomo was wearing the Golden Mech, and he could fight them without being scared off too, and there's zero chance that TOMO of all people can withstand fear anywhere close to Hecate's capacity for it. He doesn't even have supernatural willpower). Fear is something Hecate doesn't really feel in any case, given her total lack of it through all of her escapades. She could also just fight without looking at her or just having the mech fight in 'blind mode' if you will, if that's even necessary now that I've pointed all this out with Golden Battlefield mapping, she'll have Asuna locked onto the whole time, and escaping the 4000KM range won't be too helpful either since anything that does enter the range is also locked onto if it's coming from either Asuna or Javen, and she'll have Frogman marked down as an ally so all of her stuff would refrain from hitting/effecting him in accordance to that. Hecate will be able to fight equally as well when blind as she would otherwise with these methods, so since asuna’s is sight based based on the profile mentions of fear manip, it won’t be effective even if the above methods didn’t count for defense against fear,

Plus, as I edited my message to add on before, Frogman, from what I know, has billions of years of culminated combat experience and adaptions. No doubt in my mind that the opponents he's faced have similar, if not, outright superior Hax to what Asuna brings to the table.

Besides the age thing which was already pointed out (it being only 26K as opposed to billions), this is pretty accurate. Stage 3 has fought 'a wizard with thousands of spells including transience/time immunity and a brute able to separate into two complete characters using superior reactions and intangibility explosion attacks', just buying time against such a thing for Gunnix to recover. It's true he had an ally there but in this feat he did work alone, and it still applies the same anyway considering Hecate is here (and Golden Hecate is above Gunnix anyhow) and this Frogman is Stage 4, far more intelligent, efficient, powerful, and fast than the aforementioned Stage 3 which would have done this feat. It's not a stretch to assume that this Frogman has at least seen all of Asuna's hax individually throughout 26,000+ (further on this note, the Stage 3 in said feat would be at max 10,000 old, making the Frogman here WAY past that, for a sense of scale) years of facing haxxed high sin meter enemies beyond this skeleton and has experience overcoming each one. Ofc he didn’t spend ALL of this time doing that since red stickmen exist, but considering stage 4’s role as a commander frogman and the fact that other units are better suited for that fodder, it’s pretty safe to say that was his main job

Spagmatron < Stage 3 Frogman < Stage 4 Frogman

It's honestly probably more like Spagmatron << Stage 3 Frogman, especially if the Frogman has a Red Saber, and Combat Stage 4 wields two combined with the experience factor, among other things like intellect and expanded abilities, Stage 4 Frogman is a good deal beyond Stage 3, especially Combat Stage 4 which is a notably battle experienced Stage 4

Plus, while this is claims, Hecate exists alongside him, and Venefica said themself that Cobalt, the same character who stalemated both Asuna and Javen at the same time, was a bad matchup compared to Hecate.

Yep. In a battle like this, Hecate is just... better, outright, than Cobalt. Her teammate in Frogman is much greater than what Destiny was for Cobalt, which makes up for Hecate's lack of stuff like Hyperspace and portal/clone spams, and she's just waaaaay more creative than Cobalt is when it comes to mid-battle applications of her abilities despite being a lot worse at just generating new ones. Combined with Frogman and using telepathy between each other, their intellect essentially stomps Cobalts (and greatly raises Hecate's battle intuition since Frogman will be in her mind the whole time) and will be extremely difficult for Asuna and Javen to overcome, alongside the stuff I mentioned before. There's also a few extra things applicable to this battle specifically up her sleeve Cobalt lacked which can also throw a curveball into Asuna and Javen's attempts to win

Well, this is an entirely different Asuna compared to before, she not only has better stats, but better, well, everything but she’s always been used to skill/experience disadvantages and still winning… Furthermore this specific frogman has only been around for 26,000 years, not billions lol

I know for a fact she hasn't faced a disadvantage close to this large in experience. The vast majority of those 26,000 years consists of immense training, thinking, commanding, and battling equally haxxed enemies, so just 'being used' to fighting enemies at that sort of disadvantage is hardly applicable, even for a willpowered prodigy like Asuna. Even Hecate should be well more experienced considering Asuna's age, but that gap is probably small enough not to matter too much. However, Hecate is quite literally built differently, and her thinking is telepathically tied to Frogman, so... the difference is thousands of times greater than anything Asuna has faced so far.

️
Question:
Do they like see through the minds of peeps or...?

Don't need to, the Golden Scanners will basically pick apart every single detail of all of Javen and Asuna's stuff. With her Golden Scanners, Hecate was able to completely decipher all of Ekaterina's abilities simply based on a glance, completely bypassing all of her means against analysis built into her battlesuit. She also did this for robots like Neired, who have an even more great resistance to info analysis, still without much struggle/extra time doing so. They are much more advanced than the slimy Mk. 2 ones, which are beyond the Mk. 1 scanners, which are far greater than her base mech scanners, and it’s all stacked upon her base info analysis, which even without mechs is very impressive and borderline inhuman. Neither opponent even has a baseline resistance to info analysis, so she's gonna know everything, and that'll be instantly sent to Frogman so he'll know all of it too

The army of spagmatrons could prove useful, but keep in mind that both asuna & javen can make many clones of themselves to compensate in terms of numbers,

Clones wouldn't be too useful against someone who can set up an expansive avalanche of matter-shredding and tearing lasers being bent into all shapes and directions (said lasers also couldn't even be moved/diverted by Class Z TK from Faji, who's abilities as a psychic surpass Asuna's gravity/tk stuff based on her profile). When it comes to the matter based powers here, it really doesn't care at all about stats unless they're tier 2 or something, seeing as it possesses many durability negating powers like deconstruction and doing so at a whim (even when it doesn't hit directly these things still occur). One of their selling points is that they even nullify stronger powers, especially in higher concentrations (shooting vastly higher in capability) and any clones who approach her avalanche would be shredded the same way, destroying most of what would be used to attack the Digi-shields. Note that all of the golden laser powers worked against someone who was already explicitly designed to not just resist, but negate these sorts of powers just by the existence of his 'special body' which normally would disperse them on contact. Using air manipulation (far greater than Mk. 2, whereas even Mk. 1 could do something like this) to concentrate the explosions of the Golden lasers, she could also even absorb that energy and make herself a good deal stronger, faster, and more durability through her Tomo barriers, which even absorbed stuff like 'spatial bursts' which annihilate the fabric of space and cause existence erasure. Considering that, most of Asuna's attacks would be susceptible to absorption since this is based on the same thing Albion had which we deemed absorbed her attacks in this thread, but even if not she has feats of absorbing attacks similar to stuff that warps reality regardless since Blood Sea abilities are described as a 'pseudo-Magic', but this also refers to V. Verse Magic which is way different from PoW magic. Even if negate is used on the fire lasers, Hecate can replicate a similar defensive with a large field of Golden Bubbles, which even sub-atomic based attacks cannot pass through at all. or if it's used on the bubbles, Hecate keeps the lasers. If it's used on the tomo barriers (which actually also count as power null so I don't evem know if Negate would work at all), Hecate still keeps bubbles and the lasers. Negate also has to actually land first, above all, as well, and depending on how that works the lasers might destroy it or the barriers might absorb it.

It's also not in the profile because these are actually Tomo's feats, but he was wearing the same mech so it's applicable to Hecate too, but he was able to use the same barriers to absorb the effects of Blood Sea Soldiers Dark Bloodswords, which inflict Power Nullification, Durability Negation, Statistics Reduction, Life Manipulation, Space-time Manipulation, and Deconstruction and are also noted to be slightly stronger than Cobalt's Plutonium Hyperblade, which does the same things since she copied it from them via her Energy. It also absorbed their self-destruction which is way beyond their standard AP and their Blood Tornadoes which normally shred shields instantly, due to being made up of their dark energy. The array of the Tomo barriers absorption is massive, and they can also be converted for physical attacks while also retaining the ability to absorb blows which inflict these effects as well.

While outsmarting them will be a challenge, i think asuna could definitely use her & javen's abilities to be able to defend and keep them on the move while asuna deduces their weaknesses like she's done many times before. Plus, without type 1 acausality i can see on either hecate or frogman's profiles, [Playback] could still be effective in preventing asuna from making any mistakes if she's in a pinch, and while hecate or frogman could probably figure out what happened they can't really prevent it from happening

Frogman easily remembers all from his own rewinds, so he should be able to remember. Plus Frogman will know about playback right away after Hecate's scan. Playback also becomes sort of useless if Hecate can land her Shut Up Sound Waves, which are just gonna stop thought altogether, so it can't even be used at that point. Asuna doesn't resist the kind of mind stuff that those waves induce, after triple checking the profile again her resistances look to mainly go towards madness/insanity inducing mind shenanigans moreso than just stopping the ability of thought altogether (which again, in her profile and every thread she’s been in so far, she is not shown resisting/countering at this point in time)

 

[Froggytron]

The army of spagmatrons could prove useful, but keep in mind that both asuna & javen can make many clones of themselves to compensate in terms of numbers, and the digi-shilds are also only specified to work against High 7-A maximum, and even if we ignore the fact that javen is 4-A, asuna by herself is 19.6 billion times stronger than the digi-shilds limit. So unless frogman can spawn that many spagmatrons (I don't think that many even exist lol) then DRILLING through the shields should be no problem at all

Trying to stop either asuna or javen with them would probably go something like this especially since asuna's magic is definitely very similair to energy^2 as i've explained above.

Of course, the spagmatrons have Digi-Shild redirect too, but i don't think we've ever seen them reflect hits THIS much stronger than them, and even if they can, Asuna & Javens danmaku options could leave the vast majority of them without it for pretty much the entire fight due to the cooldowns.

Would Digi-Shields be simple forcefields with High 7-A capacities, it would likely go this way. Yet, their attack reflection is broken (I think I mentioned they could possibly reflect even 2-tier attacks with weeks of being in cooldown, thrice on this wiki), the power of anything reflected translates into the time they wont be able to reflect again. Each Spagmatron has 3 Digi-shields, and there are hundreds of Spagmatrons, meaning there is potential to reflect thousands of even 4 tier projectiles before all is in cooldown. But also don't forget the fact, that each Digi-Shield destroyed is still there, in its repairing form it still redirects 20% range damage flying through it. Stack 20% thousands of times, and even 19.6 billion times stronger attacks before extremely small (Im too tired to calc it).

... meaning that Spagm wall can withstand thousands of projectiles and then reduce their power extremely once all reflections are depleted. And here is where Frogman comes so dangerous with FU Androids, given that even a single 2-Sec-Rewind can rewind the fact of the shields reflecting the High 6-A/4-A attacks (while the attacks are reflected already), meaning with a Frogman in back, the shields can reflect and reflect again and again. Thats also why Stage3-4 Frogmen are commanders in FU-

While outsmarting them will be a challenge, i think asuna could definitely use her & javen's abilities to be able to defend and keep them on the move while asuna deduces their weaknesses like she's done many times before. Plus, without type 1 acausality i can see on either hecate or frogman's profiles, [Playback] could still be effective in preventing asuna from making any mistakes if she's in a pinch, and while hecate or frogman could probably figure out what happened they can't really prevent it from happening

Don't forget, every 2-Sec-Rewind can rewind her using Playback, meaning it negates all information she gained (and Frogman experienced as Combat stage 4 will instantly notice when someone gets tons of information in a single time frame, further with Hecate's help granting him the knowledge that Asuna has Playback in the first place). Unlike Spagm or Gunnix, Stage3+ Frogman negs many of Asuna's arsenal.

I imagine frogman will be absolutely flabbergasted when he see's that this random 15 year old human can make so much energy^2 on the spot too lol, while i don't think he would just not plan anything i think that will render their usual strategies moot as well, since they seem to usually fight the red stickmin who can't produce such energy, as much willpower as they have to run away

It's possible Frogman will be smiling with evil joy instead, while Asuna gets flabbergasted Would Asuna's attacks really be similar to energy^2 (which is comparable to EXP), this means the Spagmatrons capturing these attacks with Laser Bubbles will be massively fed with direct EXP (which they don't even need to deconstruct). Asuna's verse logic could act as an exploit to FU Android evolutions being accelerated, and before soon there might be many Gunnixes instead of Spagamtrons. It's true these Gunnixes wouldn't have mastered attacks, but with Frogman's help, they could achieve launching many attacks and be way more powerful than Spagmatrons here, effectively changing the battlefield balance.

Also, asuna's fear manipulation might also make hecate second-guess herself too, since she lacks any resistance to it Of course, frogman has Empathic Manipulation he can use on hecate, but it's never described as a constant or permanent thing on his profile, and asuna's fear manip has worked even against extremely serious opponents like the random NPC from the adventurers tournament, so any anger hecate would feel, for example, would in turn be nullified. So even if it did work, asuna just needs to glance at her once more for it to work again

Frogman can spam emphatic manipulation on Hecate, but it's also possible Hecate (with her biologically connected Golden mech) could gain the feature from Frogman's cells to instead gain power from fear (similarly to Frogman), backfiring on Asuna in another way

(Lets refrain from replying for now so that froggy has time to reply once bro is back. It's starting to get a little flooded and we wanna avoid this )

Thanks once more, I was able to respond to all truthfully as there weren't pages of replies already

 

[Rayfire]

You make Frogman seem like the final boss of this tourney everyone has to connect in order to beat him

Gotta hype myself up brother (I'm fine with winning or losing tho, lol, asuven have already came real far, but that doesn't mean im not gonna stop trying )

I've got 2 huge replies to respond to, so i'll be a minute, but i have counter args for both lined up

 

[SSB64]

Gotta hype myself up brother (I'm fine with winning or losing tho, lol, asuven have already came real far, but that doesn't mean im not gonna stop trying )

I've got 2 huge replies to respond to, so i'll be a minute, but i have counter args for both lined up

I'll definitely be handing you my Ki for the Spirit Bomb that Asunaven are going to drop on Frogate.

 

[Rayfire]

I should point out that it isn't exactly out of character for an FU fighter to kill a low-sin meter in a fight, as Hecate herself is killed in this thread by Gunnix. As long as they have a superior rewind the death later, it's still well within their authority to kill whoever stands in their way, especially since Javen and Asuna are making the first attacking move.

„holding back„ is far from the truth here, Frogman won't hold back, namely after Hecate tells him via telepathy all the arsenal of Super Javen and Asuna. Frogman won't attack until he is attacked (when facing low sin meters), but given that he expects to be attacked anyway, he will already deploy many defenses and plan the best reply to each individual move his opponents can make. The moment Frogman is attacked, he already has the best way to react (and Frogman is ready to instakill low sin-meters when they attack him / get in the way of clearing high sin-meter beings, viz Sin Vision page), namely as he is able to rewind them later when all business is done.

This sort of just... works in asuna's favor then, considering that danger sense is asuna's instincts telling her that someone wants to or is about to harm her in some way. She learned from experience in her previous life really well This will essentially just help her see them coming better lol

This might also just encourage them to do what they did against Cobalt and Destiny more...

Alright, enough of the Hecate underestimation She's been dogged on the whole tourney, and I'm putting my foot down

It's been said a million times that Cobalt is smarter than Asuna in all facets, but that is basically meaningless now that Hecate is in the ring. Her feats of intellect completely stomp Cobalt's, she's at least a few hundred times smarter. She makes plans and applies her powers in far, far greater ways as well. The only thing Cobalt has on Hecate when it comes to their brains is her pure fighting skill, which is decently above Hecate's but her thinking speed/attack accuracy and sheer creativity make up for this. Regardless, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say she's at least equal with Asuna in that regard based on their similar combat feats. Honestly, she may even be better since I don't think Asuna has fought multiple above genius battle robots built specifically to kill with intense battle intuition at once and still won Mid-Diff, only getting a disadvantage when Triton joined (as well as earlier facing Helios, Selene, Suru, and Ekaterina all at once after they'd destroyed part of her Battle Army first. All four of them are reeeaally good fighters). Heck., even her massive Slimy Mk. 2 mech had acrobatics compared to a master among master at Martial Arts, Akumo, and impressed him a lot. The Golden mech, being further advanced and WAY smaller, more agile, and nimble, is obviously way past that stage of fighting ability. Frogman and Hecate easily hold the skill advantage.

Another thing Hecate has on Cobalt besides intellect, is both willpower and stamina. The same thing which let Asuna and javen have higher odds over Cobalt and Destiny won't work again. Off the bat, even base Hecate has higher stamina feats than Javen. She often spends multiple days with basically no breaks working on stuff, spent a week straight finishing up her Slimy Dream Mech, can build a whole bunch of her Battle Drones and Battle Army with minimal robotic helping, and spent many days on the run from Monarch (after being beat up, fighting many battles in a row included against a 7-B mech while she was 8-B, after multiple tortures and losing her only friend ever at the time, Alexis, and crashing a large car through multiple trees and being shot) and still persisted. Stamina is a little more nebulous, but considering she's wearing her Golden Mech here she has a triple upgraded Starry Slimy System which regens stamina at a very good rate and feats of not tiring during all those intense robo/Dragon Hero matches. Tomo, a regular dude, also wore the mech and didn’t get tired after facing blood sea soldiers and flying around for a while, so that’s something Her ability to take bodily punishment also seems comparable to Asuna considering the stuff at Monarch.

This also obviously ties into her own supernatural willpower, which imo seems comparable to Asuna's if not actually better overall. Not only was she bullied as a kid (actually her entire life really, more time being bullied than Asuna, which is apparently a large factor to her will), but she also survived the Mind Breaker without wavering, a device which literally shatters the minds of those subject to it, to the point that multiple previous patients were driven so mad that they straight up cannibalized each other and then themselves after just seconds of it. Hecate survives at least a minute and is virtually the same afterwards, it stuns Craven, who administered it, and Alexis, who thought she’d never see Hecate again after she was taken to the machine. That is bare minimum comparable to Asuna's feats of surviving madness-inducing things, if not even beyond that when you add everything which happened to Hecate in quick succession afterwards. She remained a bit goofy after ALL of this. And this Hecate is older, so you can throw the death of Slimy in there too as well as Star being hunted down by mobs and Ekaterina rallying people to hate/go after her during the Dragon Heroes stuff, Star being mind maniped to destroy the City and everyone turning on her AGAIN and trying to kill her son, and going through the horrors pregnancy and childbirth has on you. She's had it way worse than Asuna ever has so far and persisted alarmingly well. She may not be able to convert her will into Magic or anything, but when it comes to this specifically I believe that Hecate comes out on top until Asuna gains further willpower feats.

Definitely fair points, however, it should also be noted that asuna's willpower is far greater in this key than when she handled the madness manipulation of the dark forest without issue, which almost certainly left some notably willpowered adventurers left with, well, no willpower, hence why none of the adventurers trapped in it's grasp couldn't use magic and basically went insane, so it’s effects are particularly potent since they work on individuals with higher degrees of supernatural willpower (Whom, granted, were more like on the lower end of this lol, but it's still supwill at the core) than the norm in fiction. She didn't experience her limit break for nothing. Which is also why asuna said her will to fight would keep increasing till she won when she fought haruka, so even if hecate had an advantage in this regard, it's very unlikely to last forever.

Most of these also just sound like mental endurance feats, which, while still impressive, aren't always combat-applicable, it seems like a very long-term sort of thing like Cobtiny vs Asuven came down to, but this thread hasn't reached such a point yet. I don't think hecate has gotten rapidly stronger during a fight through sheer will despite being at large disadvantages in most categories like asuna has, for example. Willpower in fiction takes many forms, but in this case i believe asuna will benefit from hers more unless this becomes a mental endurance fight, but that's a whole other discussion that can wait until something like that happens.

Yeah no, the fear thing isn't happening again. Willpower is a thing and should keep Hecate going (the pivot to Frogman along with heavy writing and planning workloads and stress/work apparently made me neglect all of this in the max match clearly, and probability stuff didn't help anyway but luckily Asuna doesn't have that nearly as close to Max, all she has is Fortune, and the help button was genuinely crazy with its reach) And I don't see a reason why Hecate wouldn't adapt to it in this case anyway, since the Golden Mech can adapt to abstract effects like the Blood Sea stuff, this doesn’t feel like it’s beyond the scope of the Golden Adapter.

Also it's not exactly wrong for me to say she actually does resist fear given what she does with her Slimy Dream Mech, and that thing doesn't exactly make her any braver than she is when she's wearing this mech and she could persist through krakoDaio's glare which is similar to Frogman's conceptual fear at full blast. The whole Blood Sea Army also has an inherently terrifying presence which she persisted through (and if you wanna go down that route, Tomo was wearing the Golden Mech, and he could fight them without being scared off too, and there's zero chance that TOMO of all people can withstand fear anywhere close to Hecate's capacity for it. He doesn't even have supernatural willpower). Fear is something Hecate doesn't really feel in any case, given her total lack of it through all of her escapades. She could also just fight without looking at her or just having the mech fight in 'blind mode' if you will, if that's even necessary now that I've pointed all this out with Golden Battlefield mapping, she'll have Asuna locked onto the whole time, and escaping the 4000KM range won't be too helpful either since anything that does enter the range is also locked onto if it's coming from either Asuna or Javen, and she'll have Frogman marked down as an ally so all of her stuff would refrain from hitting/effecting him in accordance to that. Hecate will be able to fight equally as well when blind as she would otherwise with these methods, so since asuna’s is sight based based on the profile mentions of fear manip, it won’t be effective even if the above methods didn’t count for defense against fear,

Bruh, Then why wasn't this listed on hecate's profile before I get the willpower thing if a lot of stuff was going, but this seems like something that's been in V.verse forever. Why wasn't it brought up earlier? (Not that it's a big deal, i occasionally make these sorts of mistakes too lol)

Either way, Both asuna & Javen have the range to fight well outside of 4000km, so the battlefield mapping thing won't be a big deal. Plus, if asuna has [Supercharge] active then hecate will have less time to react to any incoming attacks she can see with it, reducing it's effectiveness greatly. I know that hecate can get faster too, but she has a much harder time controlling herself at max speed, so unlike cobalt i don't think it'd be as effective despite the gap being closed more.

Clones wouldn't be too useful against someone who can set up an expansive avalanche of matter-shredding and tearing lasers being bent into all shapes and directions (said lasers also couldn't even be moved/diverted by Class Z TK from Faji, who's abilities as a psychic surpass Asuna's gravity/tk stuff based on her profile). When it comes to the matter based powers here, it really doesn't care at all about stats unless they're tier 2 or something, seeing as it possesses many durability negating powers like deconstruction and doing so at a whim (even when it doesn't hit directly these things still occur). One of their selling points is that they even nullify stronger powers, especially in higher concentrations (shooting vastly higher in capability) and any clones who approach her avalanche would be shredded the same way, destroying most of what would be used to attack the Digi-shields. Note that all of the golden laser powers worked against someone who was already explicitly designed to not just resist, but negate these sorts of powers just by the existence of his 'special body' which normally would disperse them on contact. Using air manipulation (far greater than Mk. 2, whereas even Mk. 1 could do something like this) to concentrate the explosions of the Golden lasers, she could also even absorb that energy and make herself a good deal stronger, faster, and more durability through her Tomo barriers, which even absorbed stuff like 'spatial bursts' which annihilate the fabric of space and cause existence erasure. Considering that, most of Asuna's attacks would be susceptible to absorption since this is based on the same thing Albion had which we deemed absorbed her attacks in this thread, but even if not she has feats of absorbing attacks similar to stuff that warps reality regardless since Blood Sea abilities are described as a 'pseudo-Magic', but this also refers to V. Verse Magic which is way different from PoW magic. Even if negate is used on the fire lasers, Hecate can replicate a similar defensive with a large field of Golden Bubbles, which even sub-atomic based attacks cannot pass through at all. or if it's used on the bubbles, Hecate keeps the lasers. If it's used on the tomo barriers (which actually also count as power null so I don't evem know if Negate would work at all), Hecate still keeps bubbles and the lasers. Negate also has to actually land first, above all, as well, and depending on how that works the lasers might destroy it or the barriers might absorb it.

It's also not in the profile because these are actually Tomo's feats, but he was wearing the same mech so it's applicable to Hecate too, but he was able to use the same barriers to absorb the effects of Blood Sea Soldiers Dark Bloodswords, which inflict Power Nullification, Durability Negation, Statistics Reduction, Life Manipulation, Space-time Manipulation, and Deconstruction and are also noted to be slightly stronger than Cobalt's Plutonium Hyperblade, which does the same things since she copied it from them via her Energy. It also absorbed their self-destruction which is way beyond their standard AP and their Blood Tornadoes which normally shred shields instantly, due to being made up of their dark energy. The array of the Tomo barriers absorption is massive, and they can also be converted for physical attacks while also retaining the ability to absorb blows which inflict these effects as well.

[Negate] Is basically a status effect, it doesn't really need to land, it's not a projectile lol

It's never specified how many golden-fire lasers there are, though. Unless there are more than tens-of-thousands of them i don't think they could hit even one asuna in this key, and this assuming she just dodges and doesn't use any of her skills to help her Even if it was for defensive purposes only, asuna can still bend her attacks around them to land hits, especially if she uses her speed amps to get much faster than hecate could react to stop them

• Homing Attack (All adventurers can manipulate their magic in any way they like/are capable of, Including changing an attacks direction.)

Frogman easily remembers all from his own rewinds, so he should be able to remember. Plus Frogman will know about playback right away after Hecate's scan. Playback also becomes sort of useless if Hecate can land her Shut Up Sound Waves, which are just gonna stop thought altogether, so it can't even be used at that point. Asuna doesn't resist the kind of mind stuff that those waves induce, after triple checking the profile again her resistances look to mainly go towards madness/insanity inducing mind shenanigans moreso than just stopping the ability of thought altogether (which again, in her profile and every thread she’s been in so far, she is not shown resisting/countering at this point in time)

I don't think frogman remembering just his own rewinds is going to help him. The reason asuna remembers other rewinds is because she remembered chidori's in chapter 4 iirc, which is why she has memory-based type 1 acausality, which frogman doesn't have Unless frogman remembers other time reversals, i don't think he'll remember asuna using them. Remembering your own time reversals is common in fiction, but remembering other ones aren't lol, that’s like saying you resist memory manipulation for this same reason. Obviously your own powers won’t affect you unless you're Izuku Midoriya or sum, but if you lack an actual resistance to it as well there’s no evidence another persons abilities couldn’t do the same. (Granted, I did add this as another justification for asuna’s type 1 acausality, but it’s more-so supporting evidence. I might take it out but the main point here still stands)

• Acausality (Type 1; Asuna's memories are unaffected by chidori's time magic or her own.)

Asuna's danger sense can cover for her and javen if hecate is about to use the sound waves. Even if she can't resist or willpower through it, she'll have time to avoid them, so they won't exactly be the most useful here if they never land, or if javen uses his imagination manifestation to make some noise-cancelling earmuffs for both of them to mitigate the effects of it by drowning out the noise of it. And there are many earmuffs out there that specifically drown out high-frequency noises like hecate's ability specifies. This is definitely something that Javen's Imagination Manifestation can do, and probably better. I think asuven will be able to get around this easily.

Would Digi-Shields be simple forcefields with High 7-A capacities, it would likely go this way. Yet, their attack reflection is broken (I think I mentioned they could possibly reflect even 2-tier attacks with weeks of being in cooldown, thrice on this wiki), the power of anything reflected translates into the time they wont be able to reflect again. Each Spagmatron has 3 Digi-shields, and there are hundreds of Spagmatrons, meaning there is potential to reflect thousands of even 4 tier projectiles before all is in cooldown. But also don't forget the fact, that each Digi-Shield destroyed is still there, in its repairing form it still redirects 20% range damage flying through it. Stack 20% thousands of times, and even 19.6 billion times stronger attacks before extremely small (Im too tired to calc it).

... meaning that Spagm wall can withstand thousands of projectiles and then reduce their power extremely once all reflections are depleted. And here is where Frogman comes so dangerous with FU Androids, given that even a single 2-Sec-Rewind can rewind the fact of the shields reflecting the High 6-A/4-A attacks (while the attacks are reflected already), meaning with a Frogman in back, the shields can reflect and reflect again and again. Thats also why Stage3-4 Frogmen are commanders in FU-

Asuna won’t be the only one attacking though. Her attacks might become minuscule if this happens, but Javen, on the other hand, should definitely still be able to harm frogman massively. His ap is way too huge of a gap for this

For the above reasons asuna will remember the rewinds and find a way around it. Unless it's just rewinding specific things, in which case, all it will take is a 3-second use of [Negate], and the cooldowns will stick on the spagmatrons once it's out of the scope of frogman's rewind.

It's also possible that asuna could just... Throw them away with Class Z TK or Gravity Magic, and into space. I imagine frogman has some way to teleport them back, but having to do that frequently would probably hamper his ability to fight, even if just a little.

This also brings me to the fact that asuna could probably tell that stopping time drains frogman of his energy, similair to how she identifies kedrons weaknesses despite having no knowledge of him. So im fairly confident that she could take advantage of this to weaken frogman as well. And If she can master time magic better over the course of this fight with reactive evolution then she could make it last somewhat longer too. It's kind of limited because time magic is fairly complicated for asuna, but i have no doubt her RE wil come into play here for other reasons i've mentioned later as well. This won't work on hecate, but frogman will definitely feel an effect at least somewhat overtime.

Don't forget, every 2-Sec-Rewind can rewind her using Playback, meaning it negates all information she gained (and Frogman experienced as Combat stage 4 will instantly notice when someone gets tons of information in a single time frame, further with Hecate's help granting him the knowledge that Asuna has Playback in the first place). Unlike Spagm or Gunnix, Stage3+ Frogman negs many of Asuna's arsenal.

Again, asuna and javen have type 1 acausality, so she'll still remember any information she has on hecate and frogman at the time. There's also no evidence i can find that frogman can spam this, (In which case i don't think he'd be allowed lol) so it's not like he could put her and javen in a time loop or something even if she couldn't remember time reversals

It's possible Frogman will be smiling with evil joy instead, while Asuna gets flabbergasted Would Asuna's attacks really be similar to energy^2 (which is comparable to EXP), this means the Spagmatrons capturing these attacks with Laser Bubbles will be massively fed with direct EXP (which they don't even need to deconstruct). Asuna's verse logic could act as an exploit to FU Android evolutions being accelerated, and before soon there might be many Gunnixes instead of Spagamtrons. It's true these Gunnixes wouldn't have mastered attacks, but with Frogman's help, they could achieve launching many attacks and be way more powerful than Spagmatrons here, effectively changing the battlefield balance.

If that's how it works, then all that's really needed is another usage of [Playback] to prevent that from ever happening if it goes wrong. As explained above the rewind thing wouldn't really work so asuna should be able to get this off and fix her mistake. If there are any gaps in the digi-shilds at all, asuna could bend her attacks to slip through and hit frogman anyway as well, since they are a product of her will and imagination If asuna gets much faster such as using skills like [Supercharge] she'd be able to blitz the spags and frogman too and reach their commander before they can react.

Plus, as far as i know, the spagmatrons lack any resistance to javen's corruption, so if he unleashes a flurry of attacks with the crimson sword, they would instead corrupt the digi-shilds, and thus the spagmatrons with them

• Homing Attack (All adventurers can manipulate their magic in any way they like/are capable of, Including changing an attacks direction.)
• Corruption, Statistics Amplification (Type 1) (Via; The crimson sword, A sword originally from his ancestors, who put it in a magic stone to prevent anyone from picking it up other than the family bloodline, The crimson sword is a powerful weapon that corrupts anyone's physical body and depending on the way you use it you might either use the corruption to your will and gradually make you stronger, or fall to it as your demise, Luckily for the Everywhere hero he knows how to control it! and uses it as his primary weapon when it comes to it, the attacks it does can also corrupt people as long as it comes from the sword itself)

Javen also doesn't have the same situation with the energy^2 thing, so even if asuna is limited to seeing opportunities only for attacks, javen can keep pressure on the duo by attacking with zero risk of upgrading the spagmatrons.

Plus, once the digi-shilds are actually down, asuna can target them to destroy their soul crystals with her magic, which is certainly similair to energy^2 as far as i can tell at the moment. And with asuna's impossible levels of willpower and sheer AP i don't find it unlikely that she can one-shot a lot of them and get rid of a lot of frogman's defenses that way, especially since they would not resist time stop for example
It's also very likely that asuna could take out the vast majority of spagmatrons with THIS skill, where their commander wouldn't be able to help them...

• Spatial Manipulation & Pocket Reality Manipulation (Via [Barrier of Chaos] Skill. A mimicked version of haruka's Void of Despair. When in adequate range, asuna can entrap opponents in a white space that she can control to her whim. Typically, asuna will unleash a flurry of skills and attacks at random into it, entrapping the target with danmaku-like attacks that are near-impossible to dodge. Like Haruka's [Void of Despair], it is likely that a target must require an incredibly strong will to cancel it out, or otherwise they will face attacks the whole time it is active. However, this is not effective against massively stronger opponents.)

With a lack of supernatural willpower on spagmatrons page, even if they survive the onslaught of attacks from asuna & javen in here, then they still won't be able to get out, so it could effectively work as BFR in this case.

So what looks like a good way for Frogman to turn things around would instead be an advantage for asuven, as they would find a way around the spagmatrons... BECAUSE THAT'S HOW A DRILL WORKS!

It is not superior in the slightest (never on any FU page or in the story is mentioned willpower can enhance your attack to be superior), but if this is truly how Asuna's verse works with magic, these are fair points that might crack the soul crystal a bit on each hit (if the magic created from willpower is somewhat still connected with Asuna as she fires it, some spells clearly not connected might still do nearly nothing

Not sure if Asuna will benefit from this though, namely on Frogman, as Frogman’s body does not have any soul crystal in it, when destroyed it simply creates it while teleporting it universes away in the same time fragment (where it regens a new full frogman body, within minutes), then the Frogman returns to fight once more. Meaning, in the actual battle this would just help with the Spagamtrons, which Frogman can keep rewinding back.[/URL]

That's a good question asked In FU, willpower is precious, as it is sometimes taken as another energy^2 source, able to feed like EXP in the short-term, it behaves as a superior energy compared for example to an electrical one. 'Energy gathering (EXP Collection)' sections cover it greaty on the [/URL]F.P. page.

Maybe i'm just mis-interpeting it, but energy^2 definitely seems like a pretty top-tier thing especially when it's stated that willpower is an aspect in FU that cannot be simply negated, which kinda sorta implies that willpower is just superior to regular attacks in FU.

Well, without willpower you literally can't use magic at all in PoW, so it's pretty much the source of it

It would still help asuna greatly against Frogman even if she can't get rid of him for good, though. You mentioned that energy^2 can also be used for defensive abilities, so if asuna made a forcefield for example, i have a hard time believing frogman could bust through it for this reason, especially given their roughly equal stats

Moreover, With asuna's power bestowal, It's possible that javen's moves could be imbued with asuna's own, as in PoW it's essentially a combination of skills. Making it even less likely for frogman to get through if javen puts a forcefield of corruption around them. plus it's sheer durability.

I should probably ask how well frogmen deal with people that are faster than them. Cause with asuna's amps, her movement and reaction speed will benefit her team greatly, and she can give this to javen temporarily too. Although, i should mention that laser frogman doesn't exactly have higher reaction speeds despite his impressive processing speed, so while that'll help him in intelligence im currently under the assumption that frogman will be blitzed

Phew, this was very long, I think it'll be better to rI espond to the key points rather than everything at once, otherwise this'll be very slow and wear everyone out lol

 

[SSB64]

Cobtiny

I still like Cold Destiny better. >:3

 

[SSB64]

Also, adding onto what Rayfire said, similar with what was mentioned about Cobalt, if all else were to fail, Javen could probably just plop giant stars down and boil Frogate. I'm not entirely sure if they have as good of resistances or ways around Javen spawning stars like what he did with Cold Destiny. Heck. I don't think Frogman has a reliable counter to that given that, from what I've seen of his profile, he doesn't have a solid resistance to it. Best I saw was a flame that permanently burns and destroys a person's body, but that isn't too impressive, and sounds more Hax based rather than temperature based.

 

[Rayfire]

Also, adding onto what Rayfire said, similar with what was mentioned about Cobalt, if all else were to fail, Javen could probably just plop giant stars down and boil Frogate. I'm not entirely sure if they have as good of resistances or ways around Javen spawning stars like what he did with Cold Destiny. Heck. I don't think Frogman has a reliable counter to that given that, from what I've seen of his profile, he doesn't have a solid resistance to it. Best I saw was a flame that permanently burns and destroys a person's body, but that isn't too impressive, and sounds more Hax based rather than temperature based.

While it’s definitely an option they’d be willing to go for and a good wincon afaik, there’s a lot more to cover than just that. I wanna be a bit more broad than the star strategy in terms of what Asuna and Javen could do to win this time around. I do have ideas (Which I won’t share atm) on how Javen could do things of similair scale beyond just making stars and blowing them up tho

 

[SSB64]

While it’s definitely an option they’d be willing to go for and a good wincon afaik, there’s a lot more to cover than just that. I wanna be a bit more broad than the star strategy in terms of what Asuna and Javen could do to win this time around. I do have ideas (Which I won’t share atm) on how Javen could do things of similair scale beyond just making stars and blowing them up tho

Fair. I'm just saying that it's technically a wincon for them. But if we can find more wincons for Asunaven, the method I mentioned would end up backing up the other wincons for justifying an Asunaven W.