Final Fantasy X is canon to Kingdom Hearts II

[Bobsican]

Well, sort of, let me explain

https://www.khinsider.com/news/Chain-of-Memories-Interview-w-1up-2004-2561
Nomura: Actually, since Auron was one of the most popular characters with fans, we got a lot of requests from users asking us to put him in the first Kingdom Hearts. But, finally, we didn’t put him in the storyline, because the choice of who we’d feature in Kingdom Hearts isn’t only based on popularity. We have to see if that character matches well with the storyline, the Kingdom Hearts universe, and so on. This time, you saw that the Hercules world is back again, and we use the character of Hades. We thought that there could be a link between Hades and the underworld in the Olympus world, and in Final Fantasy X, Auron is also representative of the underworld. So we thought we could do something special with the relationship between those characters.

https://www.khinsider.com/news/A-Look-Back-Highlights-of-KH2-Worlds-according-to-Nomura-16133
"The FF character Auron appears not just because of the huge number of people who told me they wanted to see him in KH, but also because the Underworld, a land of the dead, links to the Farplane in FFX."

"The Underworld is linked with the Farplane, so we included Auron"

"Got rid of his sunglasses, made him a bit younger, that's about it. I also made him a bit chibi, with a thinner waist and a sharper overall silhouette to match the world of Hercules. By the way, his dialogue is a parody by Nojima himself, who was in charge of the scenario of both this game and FFX."

----

From this, it's pretty clear that unlike other FF cameos in KH (which are regarded as just parallel universe variants), Auron is special, as it's clear that the main devs of FFX and KH (Which are both developed by Square Enix, mind you), consider Auron as directly coming from FFX. Now what implications this may have for indexing is up to debate, as I'm not too knowledgeable on FFX, but from what I'm looking:

- If it's accepted as a one-sided crossover, KH Auron just inherits whatever from the main page

- If it's accepted as a canon crossover to both sides, the KH Auron page should be merged with the main FF page, this may also have the implication that KH and FF share a multiverse or similar, which'd make KH magic have the same propierties as FF magic, those currently in 2-B going to 2-A out of there being infinite universes that'd be bound to the KH of Worlds by extension, and about every FF character getting a heart, and surely more implications out of this (namely resistance scaling)

 

[Jibz]

Regardless of the outcome, this'll be one entertaining crt. May i ask, if this were to be accepted what scaling changes would occur? If any

 

[Bobsican]

It only affects Auron, and it'd make him just inherit stuff from FFX, or in the case it's agreed as a canon crossover to both sides, the KH and FF pages being merged.
For scaling, I'd be uncomfortable with scaling any KH/Disney characters to him, or vice-versa (let alone cosmological scaling), so that'd probably be left intact unless brought up semantics of what this'd lead to are sorted out.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Well... I might be wrong, at least until we get a bit more context or analyze it a bit more. But it comes to me more like Nomura meant a thematic connection? The Farplane is the afterlife in FFX and Auron was an unsent during the events of the game (essentially a spirit that couldn't rest in peace and remained in the living world), reason why Nomura mentions the connection from the Underworld to the Farplane and thus to Auron, as he was essentially dead during the game. Then again, Nomura may be pretty literal given how he just aims for the wild and never looks back. >_>;

What's scary is that if Kingdom Hearts is canon to FFX it would also be canon to FFVII, as the FFX-2 Ultimania more or less confirms that X and VII are set in the same universe, just different worlds. See here.

 

[Bobsican]

That could appear to be the case with the first mentioned interview, but it was before KHII even released (And we all may know Nomura likes to keep things vague when they haven't properly released yet), plus the other quotes really lean into being literal given how direct these statements are.

I don't think any side effects would come to KH being related to FFVII technically out of being related to FFX, as the FFVII characters that appear in KH are explicitly parallel universe variants as quoted at the end of the OP (namely in the Leon section).

 

[TartaChocholate]

I see your point. I mostly meant it's better look carefully at Nomura's statements just to be sure given this is kind of big.

I know you mentioned you're iffy on scaling Auron to KH and Disney characters, but IIRC he did fight alongside Sora in the Underworld in KHII and held his own against Hercules (Hades forced them to fight, or was he trying to buy time for something? I don't remember well. ) Would that count?

The big deal I wonder about is not so much direct scaling in tiering, rather how would the cosmologies of FFX, FFVII and KH would permeate into each other if it turns out they are canon. Then again, it may simply be contained in each specific universe and no biggie, me thinks.

 

[Bobsican]

Hades indeed brainwashed him, and those feats are currently taken as valid and all, so yeah.

TBH I don't think they'd inherently "share" a cosmology, as the relation between the Farplane and the Underworld is quite unexplained, unless that for their interaction they'd have to be in the same multiverse, or in the case we can default to that out of anything else requiring more assumptions (such as the Farplane not having that much range on its own to begin with), so I wonder what you'd think on that regard.

Keep in mind that we already accept each "world" in KH as a universe, so even then we'd just default to each one having their own universe somewhere in the Realm of Light if anything, it may lead into there being infinite universes in KH's cosmology by extension, which'd lead into anyone currently in 2-B being 2-A instead, however, and of course about every FF character having a heart, and maybe KH's magic system inheriting the FF semantics (Such as Mega Flare being dumb for example)

For reference, we don't assume the Toy Story universe is within KH's, even if Woody and company were canonically grabbed from there by Young Xehanort, as the "world" that appears in KH is just a copy YX did, and the whereabouts of the original for all we know would be in another multiverse, unless anybody is willing to correct me.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Well... I might be wrong, at least until we get a bit more context or analyze it a bit more. But it comes to me more like Nomura meant a thematic connection? The Farplane is the afterlife in FFX and Auron was an unsent during the events of the game (essentially a spirit that couldn't rest in peace and remained in the living world), reason why Nomura mentions the connection from the Underworld to the Farplane and thus to Auron, as he was essentially dead during the game. Then again, Nomura may be pretty literal given how he just aims for the wild and never looks back. >_>;

What's scary is that if Kingdom Hearts is canon to FFX it would also be canon to FFVII, as the FFX-2 Ultimania more or less confirms that X and VII are set in the same universe, just different worlds. See here.

That author statement is contradicted, they are confirmed to take place in different dimensions here

Hades brainwashed him, and those feats are currently taken as valid and all, so yeah.

TBH I don't think they'd inherently "share" a cosmology, as the relation between the Farplane and the Underworld is quite unexplained, unless that for their interaction they'd have to be in the same multiverse, or in the case we can default to that out of anything else requiring more assumptions (such as the Farplane not having that much range on its own to begin with), so I wonder what you'd think on that regard.

Keep in mind that we already accept each "world" in KH as a universe, so even then we'd just default to each one having their own universe somewhere in the Realm of Light if anything, it may lead into there being infinite universes in KH's cosmology by extension, which'd lead into anyone currently in 2-B being 2-A instead, however, and of course about every FF character having a heart

For reference, we don't assume the Toy Story universe is within KH's, even if Woody and company were canonically grabbed from there by Young Xehanort, as the "world" that appears in KH is just a copy YX did, and the whereabouts of the original for all we know would be in another multiverse, unless anybody is willing to correct me.

If the KH characters are parallel universe counterparts, then KH and FF would share a cosmology

 

[HST_Master]

7 remake backs up Nojima's statement by having Shinra from X-2 be in one of the photos of the founding members of the Shinra Corporation

 

[XXKINGXX69]

7 remake backs up Nojima's statement by having Shinra from X-2 be in one of the photos of the founding members of the Shinra Corporation

A shinra from a different dimension, as shown in Stranger of Paradise. Or maybe X and VII remake are both in Dimension 10

 

[HST_Master]

A shinra from a different dimension, as shown in Stranger of Paradise. Or maybe X and VII remake are both in Dimension 10

Nojima's statement existed way before VII Remake, in X-2's Ultimania. The fact square chose to add Shinra as a reference in Remake shows they want to be consistent in X and VII existing in the same universe.

 

[TartaChocholate]

To be fair, the original idea had several inconsistencies even back in the day. Though, this is not quite a case of the fans speculating VII and X are in the same setting based on hints and references or other potential connections, rather the writter himself saying that's the idea and references being born from that. So it kinda can be taken as the authors intentions being "Yeah, we're doing it! Maybe we're not pulling it off flawlessly, but we're going for it!"

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Nojima's statement existed way before VII Remake, in X-2's Ultimania. The fact square chose to add Shinra as a reference in Remake shows they want to be consistent in X and VII existing in the same universe.

That statement is contradicted

 

[XXKINGXX69]

anyway, has this been accepted? I asked a friend on discord who's knowledgeable on FF and from what I've seen, if spirit energy empowers magic in KH, that could be more consistency

 

[Bobsican]

I've yet to see a single staff member give their thoughts on the matter, so not really.
Magic isn't really elaborated on in KH, beyond at most it being stated that a Keyblade is a good channeling device for it, which'd imply it's empowered by an user's heart, as the Keyblade is an extension of an strong one, but an argument could be made from that as a heart is practically a soul, even if technically it's something separate from that.

On that matter, I bothered doing some research on the FF side on what's the Farplane and all, and I think Spira should be within the KH Hercules universe as otherwise we'd have to make up powers for Hades to interact with other universes (which'd be more assumptive), and so that'd lead into potentially KH and FF sharing a multiverse or so.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

In final fantasy, the heart is the same as one's soul, and when someone dies, they return to a stream of souls, or an afterlife
What abilities does manipulating a soul grant, and what abilities do souls have by default? Is there a page on this?

 

[Bobsican]

Check this

 

[XXKINGXX69]

souls in FF are pretty important in the cosmology, so if they are consistent, then it can be used as supporting evidence for this

while also originating from aspects like memories, emotions and bonds of friendship or negative emotions

Its like this in FF too

A heart is made from light and/or darkness, both of which make up existance. Every being has its own heart, within which their memories are bound to.

Same for FF.

The user can amplify their own power over light by calling upon the power of others', even from multiple universes away, negative emotions can amplify darkness, which can also amplify the user

Similar to how emotions can empower everything in FF

Memories are a vital component of a heart[4], significant disruption of them can destroy a heart.

Similar to how memories are a part of the heart/soul in FF

The darkness in hearts is the same one that was around since the inception of the universe, and as a component of it that defines existence, it falls as such.

Both of these are true in FF mostly, especially the one about defining existence which is stated verbatim here

I'll have to ask someone i know about the rest , his name is bowser on discord I think you know him

 

[Bobsican]

Hearts are very relevant for KH's cosmology, not only people have a heart, so does each universe (To which the hearts of all its inhabitants are bound to), inanimate objects like rivers also have one and there's also an entity known as Kingdom Hearts, to which all hearts in existence are bound to (And with lesser, artificial variants being a thing in some parts of the series), and many characters seek it for its supreme power on the cosmology.
Entities without a heart that "exist" anyways are regarded to be of nonexistent nature for that matter.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Call some people who are both KH and FF supporters

 

[Bobsican]

@HST_Master and @TartaChocholate are about the only ones that are active (And both are already in this thread).
Quite ironic that for a series designed to appeal to FF fans (KH), hardly anyone in here is into both.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Its hard for a revision like this to be accepted because only people knowledgeable on both verses can comment

 

[Bobsican]

For connections from the FF side to KH:

- Sora appears as a champion that can be summoned in World of Final Fantasy, and it can fit within KH lore as it's clear he's dropping from the Realm of Sleep (Even having his KH3D appearance), which is basically where anyone in KH goes when their heart sleeps

- Final Fantasy Record Keeper has as its entire premise reliving past events from other games in the series to restore paintings that record such historical events, and with KH being one of them, that gives the heavy implication that KH is within the FF cosmology to begin with.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

is linked in the sense that both are a land of the dead and not who inhabit the same universe, Tidus and Wakka themselves have nothing to do with their FFX counterparts

 

[Bobsican]

The argument isn't that KH Tidus and Wakka are the same ones as the FF ones, nor for nearly every other FF cameo in KH for that matter, but rather that there's blatant statements that directly link KH to FFX (and Auron in particular) out of how the KH Underworld is connected specifically to the FFX Farplane.
It just being a thematic thing is only brought up for the earliest interview on this regard, which was before KHII even released, and then it's later on explained on to be quite more than that.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

maybe the most connection you can find is in world of Final Fantasy where Extraverse is introduced, where basically all Square games exist in different multiverses, but if we consider that then it would basically say that Tomb Raider is canon for FF because of her outfit appearing in Lightning Returns


there is even a backgroud for Lara's clothes

 

[Bobsican]

Well, I'd avoid just using clothing to claim this sort of stuff, as for all we know they could just have bought it from somewhere, or is just non-canon fanservice, and isn't really inherent proof of canonicity, but the rest is at least considerable.

 

[SamanPatou]

At most I can see Auron having a single file with two or more keys for FF and KH, considering him a single person.

Similarities between the series can be for the simple fact that they are developed by the same company with KH stemming from FF in the first place, but I believe that, for our purpose and the ideas that were behind the conception of both series (considering FF is quite olden than KH) we shouldn't consider them being the same canon throughly, especially out of simple WoG and some common points.

 

[Bobsican]

I'd be fine with just considering KH and FF Auron as the same character and just merging the pages as a result if everyone agrees.

However, how would we consider the whereabouts of Spira (basically the planet where FFX takes place) for the purposes of its relation to the Farplane (Which is inside it) and the KH Underworld?
Would we consider Spira to just simply be within the same universe as the one where the Underworld is, or just give a range upgrade to Hades? The former also leads into other FF stuff to have to be in the same multiverse by extension, to retain consistency on this and all, unless now the FFX universe is in another multiverse from the rest of FF, or we go with a range upgrade for Hader, both of which seem rather assumptive and raise even more questions for both sides.

And for the record, what'd be required for KH to be considered to effectively share a multiverse with FF then? It seems rather odd to dismiss WoG when it's clear it has the authority for both series out of being a main dev for both of the games involved, and doesn't bring contradictions.

 

[HST_Master]

That statement is contradicted

Once while every other instance it's kept consistent. Thus it keeps priority until proven otherwise as the sole time it's been contradicted is Stranger of Paradise

 

[HST_Master]

I'd be fine with just considering KH and FF Auron as the same character and just merging the pages as a result if everyone agrees.

However, how would we consider the whereabouts of Spira (basically the planet where FFX takes place) for the purposes of its relation to the Farplane (Which is inside it) and the KH Underworld?

Separate Universe from KH's which given KH4 and Hades' seeming role wouldn't be too far off

Would we consider Spira to just simply be within the same universe as the one where the Underworld is, or just give a range upgrade to Hades? The former also leads into other FF stuff to have to be in the same multiverse by extension, to retain consistency on this and all, unless now the FFX universe is in another multiverse from the rest of FF, or we go with a range upgrade for Hader, both of which seem rather assumptive and raise even more questions for both sides.

Like I said above, Hades range wouldn't be out the question depending on what he does for KH4

And for the record, what'd be required for KH to be considered to effectively share a multiverse with FF then? It seems rather odd to dismiss WoG when it's clear it has the authority for both series out of being a main dev for both of the games involved, and doesn't bring contradictions.

Simply more hard evidence both exist within the same continuity, otherwise most appearances of Sora in FF can just be dwindled down to FF having it's own version of him the same way KH has their own version of various FF characters

 

[Bobsican]

Well, we don't know yet the proper semantics at play in KHIV to begin with, and we should do the revisions without it in the meantime as much as we don't use unreleased stuff for pages (it being Hades to begin with on that part of the trailer is even quite speculative in itself), so we're basically making an assumption on Hades suddendly being capable of breaching other universes as early as that time in KHII, which is more unreasonable than going with the least assumptive alternative of Spira and Olympus sharing a universe or so.

 

[HST_Master]

Like I said, depends on what he does not that it's a guarantee

 

[Bobsican]

Well, in the meantime we default to the negative, so Hades shouldn't have the capability to breach to other universes for all we know.

 

[SamanPatou]

However, how would we consider the whereabouts of Spira (basically the planet where FFX takes place) for the purposes of its relation to the Farplane (Which is inside it) and the KH Underworld?
Would we consider Spira to just simply be within the same universe as the one where the Underworld is, or just give a range upgrade to Hades? The former also leads into other FF stuff to have to be in the same multiverse by extension, to retain consistency on this and all, unless now the FFX universe is in another multiverse from the rest of FF, or we go with a range upgrade for Hader, both of which seem rather assumptive and raise even more questions for both sides.

The two places seem to just be connected because yes, maybe underworld shenanigans, dimensional portals or else, without further details we shouldn't assume anything more than a simple inter-dimensional connection that likely doesn't affect either place meaningfully.

And for the record, what'd be required for KH to be considered to effectively share a multiverse with FF then? It seems rather odd to dismiss WoG when it's clear it has the authority for both series out of being a main dev for both of the games involved, and doesn't bring contradictions.

WoG isn't always true, consistent and in this case it's a huge statement that also involves games and stuff on which Nomura doesn't have authority. To consider them the same, big multiverse, we should have many more references, evidences and most likely in-game confirmations on both sides.

For example, the Street Fighter universe is known for encompassing other three verses because of recurring characters, references withing the story of the games, infos in official guides and even word of god.

 

[Bobsican]

Hmmm, fine, however, is the act of merging the Auron profiles out of being the same character fine then after all?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Once while every other instance it's kept consistent.

Where?

 

[Zer00Negativo]

Where?

bro VII and X take place in the same universe but not VII remake, there are no contradictions in strange of paradise and in the interview

 

[XXKINGXX69]

bro VII and X take place in the same universe but not VII remake, there are no contradictions in strange of paradise and in the interview

it does, stranger of paradise says VII takes place in Dimension 7, while X takes place in Dimension 10

 

[Zer00Negativo]

There are two FFVII, the classic and the remake, the classic takes place in the X universe and the Remake in a different universe (or vice versa) because its own events contradict the classic.