Final Fantasy VII Revised Profiles Proposal

[TartaChocholate]

Following the advice from the previous thread I made the blog.

• The profiles for Cloud, Tifa and Sephiroth can be seen HERE.
• Added Barret, Nanaki and Yuffie.
• Added Cid, Cait Sith and moved Vincent here.
• Added Aerith and Jenova.

I tried to add all justifications and explanations to the profiles themselves, but let me know if something is missing, unclear or wrong.

Still have to play Dirge of Ceberus again, but Vincent is updated with the original game like the rest so far.

An idea about the Planet itself (headcanon nonsense warning):

The Planet itself may be considerably stronger than what can be thought at first. This is a bit headcanon-ish, but… one of the big questions FFVII gets is "if Sephiroth is so strong why does he go out of his way to get the Black Materia and cast Meteor instead of Supernova-ing the Planet". We do have our explanations (mostly, parallel dimension limitations), but I think we can assume something: the Planet may be considerably stronger than Sephiroth or any of its creations for that matter, just that it can't just freely fight back due to its own delicate balance. On the Way to a Smile, Episode: Barret we get this exchange between Barret and Cid. Cloud in the tutorial halls also mentions that the Holy element is from the planet itself (which explains while the Ultimate Defensive Magic is Holy), but when you think about it, Mako doesn't have Holy properties. Well, Bugenhagen mentions in his expositio in his observatory that Spirit Energy that has been forcefully extracted loses its power, because it can't accomplish its true purpose. That can explain as well, why there is no Materia to access the Holy element aside Alexander, which is guarded by a monster in a very remote and hidden place, or why Materia that developed naturally is so powerful (Mime, Quadra Magic and Knights of the Round, for example). Essentially all methods of harnessing the Lifestream's power are rather incomplete, especially those that use Mako through Shinra's technology. The Cetra shared a more natural connection with the Planet and cultivated its Spirit Energy in more natural and proper ways, reason why their powers were much greater than what humans can do today, as seen with Aerith in later entries after her death. This explains why Sephiroth wants to force the Lifestream into the wound created by Meteor, by forcefully taking it all he will directly take all what it has without the imperfect filters that Materia, technology or his travels may have. Another thing to consider is that the Lifestream is not only the spirits and souls of those cycling through life and death at the moment. While a cycle of life and death does constantly take place, the Lifestream holds entire generations of people, knowledge and memories that remain within it, including the Cetra. As time goes on, and more people die, the Lifestream continues to grow stronger, and this has been taking place since the Planet itself was born. While the characters do talk on how the Planet is dying form the use of Mako, that doesn't really mean the Planet lost its power, it can also mean its losing its life and health, meaning it can still display its massive might such as when it pushed back Meteor in the ending, but doing so is an effort that can really hurt it given its condition. So perhaps, the Planet, with the Spirit Energy, the knowledge, Life and Power that has gained through its existence is beyond Sephiroth's power. Sephiroth may not be able to wound the Planet as he needs to with hos own power, despite being able to cause a cosmic explosion. Reason why he needs an additional source of power to do so. This doesn't really affect the CRT nor really changes much, but I thought it would be a fun idea to share.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Nice. Profiles are looking good, i agree with them.

I don't think you need to mention the KotR stuff. Though if you did, a note at the end would work.

For the underwater stuff: Yes, that should be there.

About Materia Emulation...

I'm neutral about it. While, yes, he never has shown it, he did absorb the lifestream. That and Kadaj using Bahamut SIN and all. I don't know, not really sure what ti decide for that.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Great work on this. I, of course, agree with the profiles.

You don't need to add a note or something for the Supernova, the calc linked in his AP section clearly uses the Japanese version.

You don't need to mention the feat if it's an outlier.

I disagree with this. He literally became one with the source of the thing that makes the materia. If it exists, I don't see why he wouldn't have it.

I don't see what issue you have with his durability.

He should probably have Summoning as well.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do with the Underwater stuff.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Thanks, guys!

Well, you have a point if it's an outlier there isn't much point bringing up Knights of the Round, and it's not like it's brought up that much for discussions.

I think it is worth pointing out the Supernova we use is the Japanese one, at least for poeple unfamiliar with FFVII or that just know about it from quick looks at the game, especially since the Japanese version was replaced with the international one in later releases despite authors acknowledging both. I think I can replace the current video link with one of the original Japanese Release fight to show the original Supernova, that could work.

I guess, Sephy having Summons makes sense given other characters such as Genesis as well also have used summons as Pokemon. Man, would have been helpful if instead of sending the Red Dragon he had sent Bahamut himself against the party in the Temple of the Ancients.

I think it's worth to wait for more input regarding Sephiroth's Materia emulation. Being honest, there's actually no concrete word on Sephiroth having absorbed the powers of every Materia in existance (at least I couldn't find any). There are several mentions on how he absorbed vast amounts of power and knowledge from the Lifestream and how overwhelmingly powerful he became. His plan with Meteor also was about forcing the Lifestream into the wound he would create to absorb it all, meaning there was much left for him.

Though if Materia Emulation is valid, Sephiroth would also get new powers based on the abilities found exclusively in Crisis Core.

@Ogunabali: Well, regarding the Underwater Materia it kinda goes like this: you can fight the Emerald Weapon without it at the bottom of the ocean for 20 minutes, after that the party most likely drowns. The game encourages the player to get the Underwater Materia to fight properly the Weapon. There are two choices here: we take it as the Underwater Materia makes possible the entire battle at the bottom of the ocean and its conditions, atributting the abilities to the Materia itself; or we consider the capability to fight at the bottom of the ocean for 20 minutes a natural ability of the party, which would also enormously improve their stamina (and these capabilities kind of clash with later events in the story).

Regarding his durability, well, it's just more of a personal confusion, but I guess I am just tripping with my own feet.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I agree that them fighting 20 mins underwater is a thing, but I don't see what that would upgrade. Their stamina is already extremely high as it is.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Well, true, though they would also get resistance to Extreme Pressure and Enhanced Senses (being able to see and hear in abyssal waters) as natural abilities.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Good point.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

Looks fine to me.

 

[Theglassman12]

seems ok at first, though I need to go through the games all the way to give a better two cents.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Knights of the Round Table stuff are outliers, and freezing a target till they reach AZ temperatures is still Durability Negation, it's just throwing an AZ ball doesn't negate durability.

Edit: I was also informed of another detail, and apparently all summonable monsters such as Bahamut Fury and are 4-B. Though, most of them would be baselinish with Sephiroth, and 8 out of 9 protagonists still being in the Megafoe range. But Bahamut Fury, Jenova, Zack Fair, and Genesis would be 4-B. Scales from Bahamut fury creating a solar system sized pocket reality that is destroyed by KOTR.

 

[SinsofMan]

Yeah I am noping 4-A to 3-B KOTR, it is pretty outlierish by a factor of literally millions to billions for just 4-A. I am fine though with scaling 4-B to KOTR since its pocket dimension was at the very minimum Solar System Sized. Otherwise, seems okay as a whole. Exit: Also, Bahumat Fury was clearly a few AU as well, maybe more. It is at least baseline 4-B, DDM is correct.

 

[Dark649]

I agree with DarkDragon.

 

[TartaChocholate]

@Glass: No worries, take your time.

@Medeus: Agreed, though what I meant was precisely that regarding KoTR, when I said mentioning them in the profiles was to make it clear that their feat was an outlier so people who check the profiles know why everything peaks with Sephy (though, as Crimson said, it's rather redundant). Though I didn't know Bahamut Fury had been recalc'd so radically, Thanks for letting me know that. Where did you find out about this though?

AZ would apply to Shiva's Diamond Dust, then. Though, the Elemental Materia + Shiva (essentially VII's equivalent of the Spellblade) fits more into the "ball of AZ" category IIRC. The attack does subject the enemy to AZ cold, but only for the brief instant they are attacked. Doesn't seem to be enough to negate durability on that front.

 

[TartaChocholate]

So, I have another question but for Crisis Core: many of Zack's commands can ignore durability, such as his Darkness ability or his special Punches, and Sephiroth could be on the receiving end of those. Does that translate into anything? Could that be a resistance of any sort? Stamina? Or just gameplay mechanics?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well that should fall under the question of whether does taking a hit from an elemental ability in a game give you resistance to it. I'm pretty sure that we treat that as game mechanics or just nothing at all, so some staff should probably comment on that part.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Yeah, it kind of falls into the Boss Resistances Trope if anything.

Anyhow, updated Sephy's profile to include Crisis Core Materia and cleaned the first post.

@Dark, Sins: So, uh, what are your thoughts on the proposal? Medeus is right on KotR, but in regards of the other changes?

 

[SinsofMan]

I think it is fine on first glance? I might come back to this, but minus KOTR, it is fine.

 

[TartaChocholate]

I appreciate it. While so far the proposal has been well received at first glance, and Medeus has been supportive of it, it lacks input for applying any changes. I know it's a lot of stuff to go through, so I am thankful for the patience.

There is a misunderstanding though, I didn't propose KotR as a valid 4-A/3-B entry, what I wanted to mention is how their feat is an outlier and clarify it as such in the profiles in a note or something similar. I've seen some profiles that clarify that a feat or power of the character is considered an Outlier, such as Makoto Nanaya regarding her Astral Heat at the very bottom, or Master Roshi destroying the moon for his early keys.

 

[PaChi2]

Special punches shouldnt negate durability tbh. Its probably just game mechanics.

On topic: profiles look good.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Depends on how said punches work. overall.

But otherwise, I agree with what has been discussed here.

 

[PaChi2]

Depends on how said punches work. overall.

But otherwise, I agree with what has been discussed here.

Gil punch = spend gil/money = do fixed damage.

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

Don't know about Makoto, but Roshi's note about the moon feat is there because it's a controversial feat, and a lot of people would want to try and upgrade DB based on it. So it's there as a remainder that this wiki views that feat as an outlier and to not try and upgrade the verse based on it.

The KOTR feat is completely different though, pretty sure no one even knew it existed until it was brought up just a while ago. I don't think that warrants it getting the same treatment.

 

[TartaChocholate]

@PaChi, Xyz: The Goblin Punch series are special commands that ignore Vitality and defensive buffs, similar to how the Bahamuts, Typhon and KotR work when dealing damage. There isn't a special lore behind them, but it's a recurring ability that always gives mundane physical strikes some twist.

At first I also thought this was a simple mechanic, but I did ask properly before and Defense Ignoring attacks are considered Durability Negation, though some aspects are left out as mechanics such as percentage or fixed damage. I left out abilities that rely on stuff like that like Gil Toss or Throw or the original game's Goblin Punch.

@Ogbunabali: Noted. You're right, I'll just leave it out altogether.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Bump.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Made profiles for Barret, Red XIII and Yuffie using this same format. Though didn't properly add them to the wiki.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We aren't using those for the main images are we?

 

[TartaChocholate]

It's in the meantime. I couldn't find any good full body renders of them.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

 

[TartaChocholate]

Ah right. Don't know why I assumed it had to be 3D models.

 

[PaChi2]

We can have both, can we?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Yeah, the ones he was using originally can go in a gallery.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

I played it long ago and as far as I remember sephiroth wanted to use the black matter to hurt the planet not to destroy, so that the wounded planet would expel its lifestream and then release the true sephiroth that had fallen into the lifestream, and then sephiroth could merge with the lifestream and become one with the planet.

But I also agree that the game planet (Gaia) has a level of durability much greater than 5-B, as sephiroth can use supernova magic thanks to a part of the lifestream that he controls

 

[Zer00Negativo]

Should Minerva be updated too? she is practically the personification of the planet / lifestream

 

[TartaChocholate]

Fixed, as mentioned the AC portraits were added to the gallery.

@Zero: It's not a bad idea, but I am doing the updates by myself, so it's gonna take time, gonna finish the original cast before anything.

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

I agree with this.

 

[Tonygameman]

I also agree with these (especially for new profiles like Barret and Yuffie).

 

[TartaChocholate]

Thanks, dude. Almost done with Aerith, Jenova, Cid and Cait Sith.

Also some important changes for everyone here and there. Will post them all when everyone they are done.

 

[TartaChocholate]

All righto, Aerith, Jenova, Cid and Cait Sith done. Can be seen here and here.

There are a couple of red links, I apologize, it's to mark where I have to insert some sources (my Gyazo expired, so I'll fix them tonight when I get back home). Fixed some typos and rewrote a couple of things, also everyone got some new additions:

• Resistance to Deconstruction, Matter Manipulation, Corruption (but not Disease Manipulation) and Empathic Manipulation.
• Also everyone has a case for Low-High Regen Negation by being able to destroy Jenova fragments and rendering them useless for the Reunion and giving her a full physical death when destroying Jenova Synthesis (and remembering the reunion can gather cells which surivived the Lifestream).
• Fixed "Healing of Status Ailments" and properly wrote it as "Purification" in the profiles.
• Having a few doubts regarding the exact nature of Cait Sith Inorganic Physiology, so will correct depending on new findings.

The exception to above is Aerith due to her leaving the party much sooner and having a very different relationship with the Lifestream, as seen on the Way to a Smile.

Jenova's profile was surprisingly fun to do >_> Though I am a bit disappointed she has such a lackluster moveset.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Some of the links appear to be broken, but looks pretty good so far.