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Final Fantasy VII Revised Profiles Proposal

As for who is stronger... Well, that's kind of a toughie. But, from the top of my head, IMHO i'd put them like this:

Limit Break Cloud >= Chaos Form Vincent >> AC Cloud > Chaos Empowered Vincent >>> FFVII Cloud > FFVII and AC Vincent

I have to discuss this a bit more, but for now I see it like this. Subject to change though.

Cloud had very little screen time in DoC so it's not really possible to gauge anything. Rosso did start a fight with him, but after they clash once it cuts away. Later both Cloud and Rosso are perfectly fine, and no mention of their encounter is made.
 
So you are basically saying Cloud would solo DEEP-GROUND lol. I find somewhat hard to imagine Cloud taking down Omega on his own tbh.

But then you remember that Sephy is hyped to be the strongest creature in FFVII universe and Cloud is able to fight him on almost equal term.

Btw, you put both VII and AC Vincent below VII Cloud. Does that means you don't think other party members are on the same level as Cloud even before AC? Vincent is easily the strongest one of them tbh.
 
It's mostly speculation, don't take it as a fact, I am not really good with scaling >_> but getting a hang of it, little by little.

Cloud's abilities may not be as flashy and spectacle driven as things are in DoC (I mean the Omnislash is still the Omnislash even if it went from multicolored-background changing-explosive shockwave slashes to a simple aura infused sword, when it came to special effects, AC was kinda subdued compared to its coreography), but they are still because he could finish off the strongest guy in VII, and has this massive power and speed increase with Limit Breaks.

While the Tsviets are by no means pushovers, the only one that really pushed things was Weiss who was capable of thrashing Vincent until Omega empowered him. All the other were unstoppable simply because they went against regular infantrymen from the WRO, Cloud and Tifa were suspiciosuly absent from the attack on Edge and they never encountered in the game, aside the Rosso vs Cloud clash that was glossed over. Otherwise, Vincent handily defeated them, and the times they got him was due to cheap shots.

I was mostly comparing just Vincent and Cloud, actually. I always thought that in the original game Cloud was the strongest of the group, but only by a small margin (like 10 to 8.5 or 9), but otherwise, everyone else were more or less on equal terms. What I meant to say, is that I feel that Vincent hasn't really grown weaker in AC, given his gunshots could hold off Kadaj to escape with Cloud, when Tifa couldn't really hurt Loz. I more meant AC Vincent = FFVII Vincent.

On the Way to a Smile shows that Vincent isn't inactive like the rest of the group, but spends most of his time travelling alone rather than fighting. But he was still capable of knocking out Nanaki with a single shot after some time had passed (long story) , and everyone dedicated themselves to their peaceful lives.
 
You are really dead set on everyone becoming fodders in AC lol. It's funny cuz even Geostigma Cloud was way better than everyone else who kept jobbing to the remnants. Unless Cloud pulled a Goku powered up dozen of times of screen, **** doesn't add up.

Tifa almost getting killed by a building~
 
Yeah, it's tricky to say the least. PIS is pretty rampant on the compilation (I mean, Yuffie knocked herself out by falling over in DoC, for Minerva's sake) and consistency was not on Nomura and Kitase's minds when making the plot. I'm trying to work out with all that -_-;

The only power up that's given an open explanation is Chaos, everything else is trying to piece together with the bits of info that are given. As you have told me, AC Cloud certainly has a huge difference with his teammates, but there's nothing really clear on why, or why everyone is so outmatched. In the end, after out discussions and all, I took a middle ground given the bits I had: Cloud had become a lot stronger, but everyone else had lost their edge. Reason why I am stubborn on it is how, if Cloud had always been on a tier of his own, them being a team against Jenova and Sephiroth would be odd, why not let just Cloud handle it if that was the case.

Either that or Cloud looked at his head, realized he is in permanent Super Saiyan state and decided to exploit that.
 
On a more serious note, I think the "Goku" example would work with Cloud. Maybe his teammates were able to keep with him to a certain degree but fell behind at a certain point. Cloud has the whole Jenova and Mako cells going on for him.

The rest of the party except Vincent are really just a bunch of normal humans. They have no business fighting alongside characters with aliens cells inside them
 
I guess that's a good point, not to mention that in Dirge of Cerberus Hojo openly tells Vincent that the experiments that he did on him provided him with an "indestructible" body with capabilities far above normal, as well as the presence of Chaos and it's powers taking effect without killing Vincent were possible precisely because of Hojo's experimentation.

I'll have to double check how exactly the Mako infusion in SOLDIER is carried out, but exposure to it was given to everybody in the Planet's Core. There's also the issue of the Jenova Cells being purged from his body by Aerith, or at least heavily implied to, yet he was at his top game against Sephy a while later.

I guess Crisis Core can shed light on that. How effective the SOLDIER procedure is in creating a super soldier depends a lot on how the procedure was carried out, I remember Cloud had the last few pure Jenova Cells available at the moment (at least until several years later when you confront Hojo on the Sister Ray) but not much else.

What I can think of, but it's just speculation, is that Jenova Cells not only give superhuman abilities, but also allow a more explosive growth in the capabilties of the user. Reason why Cloud, despite recently awakening from a 5 year long coma could match at the beginning fo the game, Tifa, a trainer Martial Artist, and Barret, who already had been fighting Shinra for a while.

I am guessing, is not only the cells empowering him, but allowing the strength to remain as part of the body of the individual and essentially grow more quickly, the same way Jenova can adapt to different environments at great speeds. Kinda a minor scale version of that ability.
 
>What I can think of, but it's just speculation, is that Jenova Cells not only give superhuman abilities, but also allow a more explosive growth in the capabilties of the user.

That's pretty good assumption actually. Especially when you consider how Cloud went from fodder below 3rd class soldier to above first class by the end of the game in a relatively short time. This guy was in a coma for 5 YEARS!
 
Well, Cloud was noted to be very naturally talented as well. So one can assume that the mix of said talent plus the Jenova Cells enhanced growth allowed him to become so monstruously powerful in such a short time frame. It would also explain why there's such a huge gap between 1st Class an the rest of SOLDIER.
 
Yes, pretty much established he'd be much stronger than Zack at that point in time.
 
Alright, took quite a bit, but gathering the necessary info was kind of hard for this one. Long overdue but Nomura's Fashion Disasters got their profiles: Weiss the Judo Pants (this one was updated), Shelke the Clown Shoes, Nero the Face Jockstrap, Rosso the Butt Rug and Azul the Horse Mantle

Additionally made a profile for the Restrictor. Don't know who that is? Hard to blame anyone here, he was the antagonist in the DoC online mode which lasted only around 7 months (amusingly, he is voiced by Firion).

I know they won't read this, but huge thanks to Grimoire Valentine in Youtube and Makoeyes987 in thelifestream.net for providing the information and lore regarding the online mode, otherwise the profiles would be pretty incomplete and the Restrictor would have been impossible to make.

This is a bit of a quick update, will bring some more details on what else is up in a couple of hours. Sorry bout the bother in that regard.
 
Alright, it took forever but here we have another update. Apologies in advance, no Crisis Core yet, but finally got all the side materials out of the way to focus on the proper games now with only Crisis Core and Before Crisis remaining. This update covers background, lore and other things gathered from the following:

Material Used

  • Final Fantasy VII (original game)
  • Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
  • Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete
  • On the Way to a Smile (Short stories. Episode Tifa, Yuffie, Barret, Nanaki, Shinra and Lifestream Black/White)
  • Final Fantasy VII: The Kids Are Alright - A Turks Side Story (Side-Novel written by Kazuhige Nojima)
  • The Maiden Who Travels the Planet (Novella included in the Ultimania Omega in 2005. This one led to a HUGE overhaul in the overall lore regarding the Lifestream and Jenova)
  • Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII
  • Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII - Lost Episode (A short mobile game that fills Vincent's journey to Nibelheim which is skipped in DoC proper)
  • Dirge of Cerberus - Online Mode (had to gather the story and plot from other places as the mode was Japan exclusive and has been unavailable for over a decade)
And of course what I've could find from the side materials, such as the Ultimania Omega, 10th Anniversay Ultimania, Crisis Core Complete Guide, Dirge of Cerberus Official Complete Guide, Crisis Core Ultimania and many interviews, summaries and other things that have been compiled at thelifestream.net.

Seriously, if it wasn't for their material I would have never been able to make any of this, I am seriously considering making an account in their forums solely to thank them for it.

Anyhow, no more delays and let's get with the updates themselves:

New Profiles:

  • Made a profile for Bahamut Fury, the Summon to whom most of the cast owes their current speed tiering. Otherwise they'd be stuck with Lightning and Laser dodging stuff (and argueably the Hexafang move), which would only lead to Massively Hypersonic to Relativistic stuff, I think.
  • Made a profile for the Omega Weapo from Dirge of Cerberus and the Chaos Weapo independently from Vincent.
  • Overhauled Hojo's profile, updating and correcting the information with Final Fantasy VII and to include the material from Dirge of Cerberus. Additionally, made a tab for Hojo himself without mutations. It doesn't have much porpuse, but it makes it more organized.
Updates for Several Characters

  • Everyone got a new section explaining how the Lifestream works. Essentially, the Power and Abilities section was getting too cluttered trying to correlate the Lifestream and how it translated into their resistances and abilities, so I decided to just make a new section altogether to explain it in detail. Additionally, a small section explains that the profiles consider The Maiden Who Travels the Planet and its relationship with the rest of the canon to clarify the current stance.
  • Updated the party's resistances by adding the resistance to Soul Absorption, Biological Absorption and Power Absorption that Cloud, Tifa and Sephiroth got in the previous update. Also changed their Power and Abilities section; as well as their Notable Techniques one using the newer and more concise one that Cloud and Tifa have.
  • The resistance to Battlefield Removal was changed from Sephiroth's abilities to the Lifestream itself. To elaborate, Sephiroth by himself doesn't really has BFR upon further research, not to mention you cannot resist the eject effect in the game, regardless of equipment or Materia setups. However, in the lore itself and story events we have something different: in a couple of occasions the Lifestream, more than a simple physical place, seems to be some sort of dimensionally interconnected realm, which can link not only the space where the Spirit Energy is flowing, but also people's minds (as seen in The Maiden who Travels the Planet, where Cloud and Tifa falling into the Lifestream allowed Aerith to guide them into Cloud's mind), personal spaces (such as Safer Sephiroth's heaven inspired battleground) and the spiritual path Cloud went through to fight Sephiroth in their last duel in the original game (which The Maiden who Travels the Planet establishes is Cloud's spirit following Sephiroth's in the Lifestream to finish him off). And as seen with Nero the Sable's dark powers, the absorption also includes a process of being sent to these possible spaces to be absorbed into the Lifestream.
  • The clean-up I made for Cloud and Tifa in pretty much every section of their articles to shorten and better explain things was applied to all the other party members.
  • Everyone has an "Equipment" tab now. There are no new additions in that regard, simply moved the Ribbon and their Ultimate Weapons there to keep things better organized.
  • The list of Materias obtained in the story was moved to the Standard Equipment section.
  • Due to the newer conditions seen in Crisis Core, the Ribbon additionally grants resistance to Curse Manipulation which prevents the use of Limit Breaks. Now the Ribbon protects from Power Nullification of physical, magical, spiritual and mental abilities (Limit Breaks are Spiritual Abilities which translate into physical or magical moves, Summoning and Magic are magical abilities, Command and Independent Materia grant Physical Abilities and the overall use of Materia is reliant on Mental Prowess). While it's not a Status Ailment in FFVII it is one in CC, the main difference simply being that you don't come across abilities that inflict it. But, as seen in CC the lore regarding the Ribbon does comment on protecting of all Status Effects ("all" of course meaning within the games). When Zack's profile is updated he will get the according resistances.
  • Revised the tiers for the Summons Tab for the cast. Now they include the weaker Summons and range from High 6-A scaling from Ifrit (who according to Dissidia can reduce the world to ashes), go through High 5-A with the likes of Typhoon (who has calcs putting him in this tier) and peak with Knights of the Round who are 4-B by virtue of being superior to Bahamut Fury. In Aerith's case, she just has Summons within the High 6-A tier, as the strongest one obtained while she's still in the party is Bahamut who still scales to Ifrit and such.
  • Fixed the explanation for the Knights of the Round 4-B rating: originally their 4-B tier was due to hurting Safer Sephiroth but do to that being somewhat contradictory with the lore as there is a superior Summon called Zirconiade who scales to a single Weapon (who in turn scales to a Jenova weaker than Jenova SYNTHESIS), their 4-B tier reasoning was changed due to being superior to Bahamut Fury.
  • Added and Immortality Negation (Types 2, 3, 6 and 7) to the rest of the party (bar Cloud, Tifa and Vincent who already have it) by virtue of being able to kill Jenova fragments.
  • Added Immortality Negation Type-8 to the party for being able to kill Jenova, as she can live and enforce her will as long as a piece of her remains. naturally.
  • The party's resistances now include resistance to Mind Reading and Perception Manipulation, due to the additions to Sephiroth's and Kadaj's abilities thanks to The Kids are Alright. See Kadaj's update for more details.
  • Removed Inorganic-Physiology for Kadaj, Yazoo, Loz and Sephy. I had misunderstood the definition of it and assumed it simply meant you lacked organs, but you have to be some sort of physical object without organs. However, Sephy keeps his non-corporeal in his AC tab, while Kadaj and his bros get Non-Corporeal as well due to their nature described in On the Way to a Smile, as seen in Advent Children and a few events in The Kids are Alright.
Sephiroth

  • Added Extrasensory Perception as the spirits in the Lifestream that manage to retain their individuality after death are unbound of mortal limitations and can see the true shape of the world around them. Additionally, he gets Clairvoyance thanks to the Lifestream connecting memories and being able to detect events all over the Planet from it, regardless of their location (and in Sephy's case from the Northern Cave). It quite doesn't reach Cosmic Awareness because it's localized within the Lifestream and the Planet rather to interstellar distances as Cosmic Awareness usually conveys.
  • Added Soul Absorption as Sephiroth can devour the spirits of those overcome with negative feelings or sins to feed his power, such as what happened with President Shinra and Hojo in Maiden Who Travels the Planet. More specifically, Spirits who have strong lingering regrets or obsessive emotions inadvertently create a core like Sephiroth's hatred for Cloud, which prevents them from joining the Lifestream. However, unlike Sephiroth, they don't manage to keep their individuality and become mere shadows of their former selves shaped by that core. Think of a revenant unable to rest in peace.
  • Added Soul Destruction and Astral Projection as seen how Sephiroth can freely move his spirit without his body and he can destroy other spirits in that state. There is a catch though: I haven't found concrete proof that Sephiroth can affect the souls inside living beings reason why it isn't added as he can attack souls directly.
  • Upgraded Sephiroth's Regenerationn from Low-Godly to Mid-Godly as Maiden Who Travels the Planet shows he can survive the complete destruction of his Spirit (which in VII contains your soul, mind, emotions, memories and overall individuality) and still come back, which also ties with his words in On the Way to a Smile - Lifestream Black about being able to return as long as Cloud remembered him even if his Spirit is disseminated. Important is to remember that the Spirit that returns to the lifestream is also the mind and soul of a person, his individuality and consciousness that is eventually stripped away, yet Sephiroth avoided this fate twice.
  • Re-elaborated his resistance to Time Manipulation and Time Stop virtue of, as seen in The Maiden Who Travels the Planet, the layer of the Lifestream where the souls of the dead reside has no real time and spirits are free of it. He still needs to follow the time of those of the physical world to interact with them, reason why this doesn't translate into a higher speed rating nor is interpreted as "Trascending Time".
Jenova

  • Added Extrasensory Perception as the spirits in the Lifestream that manage to retain their individuality after death are unbound of mortal limitations and can see the true shape of the world around them. Additionally, she gets Clairvoyance thanks to the Lifestream connecting memories and being able to detect events all over the Planet from it, regardless of their location (and in Sephy's case from the Northern Cave). It quite doesn't reach Cosmic Awareness because it's localized within the Lifestream and the Planet rather to interstellar distances as Cosmic Awareness usually conveys.
  • Overall update to her profile. Moved her resistances to the effects used by the party to her second tab.
  • Re-elaborated her resistance to Time Manipulation and Time Stop virtue of, as seen in The Maiden Who Travels the Planet, the layer of the Lifestream where the souls of the dead reside has no real time and spirits are free of it.She still needs to follow the time of those of the physical world to interact with them, reason why this doesn't translate into a higher speed rating nor is interpreted as "Trascending Time".
  • Added a new tab for Advent Children explaining Jenova's existance after her death in the original game, not only for abilities but also for stats (most are Unknow but it was added for clarity and to keep things organized).
  • Added Immortality Type-8 to her pre-AC tabs, as she can live as long as any part of her body remains to try to restore her body, normally living through Jenova Cells.
  • Added Immortality Type-9 due to Hojo's description of Jenova in The Maiden who Travels the Planet, due to how her soul had already permeated the Lifestream and she was becoming the Lifestream itself, which as seen in Maiden, is also a dimensional layer of spirits and memories connecting different realms, and how according to Hojo "everyone would eventually return to Jenova". Yup, Sephy's mom was becoming the afterlife itself, living up to her eldritch horror inspirations.
  • Added Extrasensory Perception as the spirits in the Lifestream that manage to retain their individuality after death are unbound of mortal limitations and can see the true shape of the world around them.
  • Added the abilities Kadaj displayed in The Kids are Alright. See Kadaj's update for more details.
Cloud

  • Small revision of his stats: his Advent Children key now states <4-B, likely higher, far higher with Limit Breaks> as Cloud has explicitly become stronger than he was at the end of FFVII, but also his Limit Breaks give him an absolutely insane Damage Boost, allowing him to one-shot enemies who are unaffected by his regular attacks. Regarding his durability, this works with Omnislash: Sephiroth casually parried the whole move and then used Octaslash on Cloud, which is one of Sephy's stronger moves, which Cloud survived, albeit barely. So the implication is, Cloud is actually tough enough to endure his own Omnislash.
  • Added Vehicular Mastery, specifically Motorcycles. I had forgotten the kind of stunts he can pull in the Hardy Daytona and especially the Fenrir.
  • Upgraded his Regenerationn Negation from Low-Godly to Mid-Godly by virtue of being able to permanently kill Sephiroth, as explained in Sephy's section above.
  • Added Immortality Negation Type-9 due to having been able to finish off Jenova and her mimetic influence in the Lifestream when he killed Sephiroth. While Jenova's corpse remained as a stain in the Lifestream, her active influence was gone for good and given Hojo's description of Jenova's merging with the Lifestream, Cloud essentially killed Sephiroth so hard he also destroyed part of the afterlife with him.
  • Added minor Soul Manipulation and minor Astral Projection. As shown in Maiden Who Travels the Planet Cloud can send his spirit into the Lifestream separate from his body, which can fight like he does and the other souls he strikes down don't pass away, but completely destroyed, which is what happened to Sephiroth. Like Sephy, Cloud cannot attack the souls inside living beings.
Vincent

  • Thanks to Bware1 for letting me know of this one: Vincent gets Soul Absorption via the Death Penalty, as in DoC the firearm's ability to increase Vincent's power was reimagined as being able to devour the souls of the wicked to increase its power (alluding to its effect in the original game). Added it to his equipment tab and his standard equipment section. I had forgotten to check out the menu description of the Death Penalty (to be fair, it was the climax of the game, Vincent had his shiny new Chaos form and Gackt's kickass song was playing on the background so I was a liiitle caught up in the moment). The wording is a bit different, but it pieces together well with the idea: monsters are essentially lifeforms corrupted by the Lifestream (and The Maiden who Travels the Planet and Dirge of Cerberus heavily imply that Tainted Lifestream is due to either Jenova's previous influence or negative emotions and sins, as in the wicked).
  • Added an explanation how his resistance to Darkness Manipulation and the negative effects of the Lifestream is enhanced by Chaos inside him, and expanded his resistances and relation to the Lifestream based on Tainted Lifestream and Dirge of Cerberus.
Aerith

  • Added Extrasensory Perception as the spirits in the Lifestream that manage to retain their individuality after death are unbound of mortal limitations and can see the true shape of the world around them. Additionally, she gets Clairvoyance thanks to the Lifestream connecting memories and being able to detect events all over the Planet from it, regardless of their location (and in Sephy's case from the Northern Cave). It quite doesn't reach Cosmic Awareness because it's localized within the Lifestream and the Planet rather to interstellar distances as Cosmic Awareness usually conveys.
  • Re-elaborated her resistance to Time Manipulation and Time Stop virtue of, as seen in The Maiden Who Travels the Planet, the layer of the Lifestream where the souls of the dead reside has no real time and spirits are free of it.She still needs to follow the time of those of the physical world to interact with them, reason why this doesn't translate into a higher speed rating nor is interpreted as "Trascending Time".
  • Moved the White Materia to her Equipment section, though its Holy Manipulation is still not combat applicable.
  • Elaborated a bit more on her "Spirit in the Lifestream" key' stats. At least now there's a small explanation on why most are Unknow.
  • Removed the Sneak Attack Materia from her Materia section. You don't get it until the end of the game, I had left it in before by accident.
Kadaj

  • Added (and, by extension, to Sephiroth and Jenova) Pain Manipulation, minor Biological Manipulation, Memory Manipulation and Perception Manipulation thanks to the events of The Kids are Alright where Kadaj can read memories of other people, take the form of people they know according to those memories (which change entirely depending on who's looking at him and whether Kadaj's victim knows the person or not), take the pain and heal injuries without magic and according to Tseng's narration all of this are Jenova's abilities. Kadaj's Memory Manipulation has the limitation he needs physical contact to use it. Kadaj also gets minor Fear Manipulation, as his presence "communicates death" according to Tseng. The name of the abilities aren't official, I just made up pretentious and endgy sounding ones because it seemed fitting for Kadaj.
  • Added another example to Kadaj's Weapon Creation from The Kids are Alright.
Others

  • Added a proper tab and key for Reeve in Caith Sith's profile. It doesn't have much purpose, but I thought it would be better organized that way. Now, there is a scene in DoC where Reeve is shown to run as fast as Vincent and outpace Azul, but that, if anything, is an outlier, given nothing indicates Reeve is above a normal human and FFVII has many issues when it comes to consistency regarding the power of their characters, best seen with Yuffie.
  • Yuffie's Lifestream section goes a bit to clarifies why her powers are so inconsistent across the compilation (she really gets the short end when it comes to display ability) and elaborate why is such an issue of consistency more than anything.
In trivia news, according to The Kids are Alright, Don Corneo is alive after the events of FFVII. The sleazeball makes money by stealing information about missing people from bulleting boards and news sites, taking advantage the energy shortages and cut communications, so that people who have gone missing after Meteorfall or due to the Geostigma crisis are impossible to find and relatives and friends have to pay him for him to return the info.

Now, finally moving on to Crisis Core once again and Before Crisis to finish up Zack and the Turks.
 
This seems to make sense to me, but I am not the best person to ask.
 
He still has to go and be a creep in Wutai sadly, but then all bets are off, lol.

This is the final update for the main cast of the original game, as there's no more material for them. Unless something in CC or BC retools the entire verse (unlikely) these would be the final version of the profiles, saving corrections and fixing mistakes in the future, espcially with the Compilation over and all new material pertaining the Remake
 
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