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Fiamma vs D

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DontTalkDT said:
Due to the gigantic difference between a soul sealing spell targeting a single person and the potency of a soul crushing spell capable of annihilating quintillions of souls.

The potency difference is like saying "He doesn't get burned by a candle, so he should survive in the center of the sun"
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Not sealing, it was ripped out of him completely. Making him a hollow existence. The point being what happens to his soul seems irrelivant to him, so why would crushing it even more matter.
 
Accelerate420 said:
It's implicit, just like D having this power null skill that she never used. We know it's the same legend without it being explicitely told the details due to Index being based around real Christianic events and what not having happened, just like we know D can use that skill because she created the system. The locks also aren't literally physical btw.

"The power of the right sent the lord of devils into Hell and ensured there he would be bound for one-thousand years. If I can completely master the Holy Right... are you not curious as to what is inside it?"

We know it's the same legend because it follows the same mechanics.

Though that's irrelevant, I wasn't actually there for that thread so not much I can say about it tbh.
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Thread literally rejected that line of reasoning as too speculatory and I ain't gonna redo that debate here. For the time being that's a no.

(And please don't try to compare that to D. She in fact used all of these spells, since all spells ever used in the system are in fact just simulated by her spell...)
 
You just said she never used that spell though? I'm confused. Did she or did she not use the power null spell? That doesn't mean it happened and it's not explicit then. Doesn't that fall under speculatory?
 
Accelerate420 said:
You just said she never used that spell though? I'm confused. Did she or did she not use the power null spell? That doesn't mean it happened and it's not explicit then. Doesn't that fall under speculatory?
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Ok, more detail.

In Kumo Desu ga there's a skill system. Those in the skill system can use skills and magic spells the system offers them.

In Kumo Desu Ga there is a difference between magic and magecraft. Magic is Magic that is offered by the System, while Magecraft is God Magic outside of the System.

The System itself is a magecraft spell, created by D. She personally created every skill and spell the System offers its users.

If a person within the System uses a skill or spell then they are not actually using it themself. Instead they basically just say that they want to use it and the System then uses the skill or spell in their stead.

So e.g. if someone uses a fly skill then the System constructs a magecraft that makes that person fly. The person doesn't fly by their own capabilities.

So D has created a magecraft that produces the effects of every skill and spell mortals use. Hence she for one knows the magecraft formulas for all the skills and spells and has also demonstrated using them, since indirectly she is using all of them.

Get it?

(And she can go around and grant people arbitrary skills from the System, so when it comes to it she can literally also do just that.)
 
I get it. So essentially, logically if she is capable of resisting said skill she can't unless stated, right? So she would have to counter said skill with resistance, so unless said skill is passive she would have to actively counter it with the nully skill, which she can't if she is bfr/seal comboed.
 
StrongClick said:
Not sealing, it was ripped out of him completely. Making him a hollow existence. The point being what happens to his soul seems irrelivant to him, so why would crushing it even more matter.
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It's not like his soul was destroyed, it was merely sealed separetly from his body and mind. That doesn't prove soul immunity. It proves resistance and a rather minor one at that.
 
Accelerate420 said:
I get it. So essentially, logically if she is capable of resisting said skill she can't unless stated, right? So she would have to counter said skill with resistance, so unless said skill is passive she would have to actively counter it with the nully skill, which she can't if she is bfr/seal comboed.
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There's still no hell seals. And Fiamma still dies before he uses anything except basic holy right crush.

If we are really sceptical then she has to spend a billionth of a second to activate all the skills (which then are passive). Afterwards all would be active and she would passively resist.

And the BFR/Seal combo does nothing once she activates her null skill, since Fiamma won't even by able to activate spells anymore due to magic power null.


Literally any action D might take ends in Fiammas defeat. The only way Fiamma can reach anything here is by D doing absolutely nothing.

(Btw. IIRC D is the manager of the afterlife, so the idea of trying to banish her to the afterlife is ironic.)
 
Cause it's not mentioned in to aru. We aren't using any info from the bible not mentioned in to aru itself.
 
DontTalkDT said:
It's not like his soul was destroyed, it was merely sealed separetly from his body and mind. That doesn't prove soul immunity. It proves resistance and a rather minor one at that.
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Where are you getting his soul was sealed from? That was his body, his soul was ripped from his body. This is hardly minor.

"Give up. I am the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. The power I wield now is the Holy power of two billion followers passed down through two thousand years of history. It is not something that can be destroyed by just one person." In addition to this, the Basilica di San Pietro was the largest and highest stronghold of the old power. Combined with the power of the Vatican, these things could be said to be powerful spiritual items that could increase the Pope's strength."
 
Hmmm, well it clearly quotes the legend itself and even mentions the part about the 1000 years in hell. This is like me saying just because she says she can use it means she can't use it because she didn't use it regarding the power null skill. "The power of the right sent the lord of devils into Hell and ensured there he would be bound for one-thousand years"

Bound - a limitation or restriction on feeling or action.

Sounds like Sealing to me.

Therefore it still applies.
 
@ StrongClick: His soul was sealed outside his body aka not destroyed. This isn't evidence that he wouldn't die if his soul was destroyed at all. Ghosts literally life with their souls outside their body and that doesn't mean they are immune to death by soul destruction.

Heck, considering that the first thing Fiamma did was break out of that state he didn't even demonstrate the capability to move his body while his soul is separated.


Heck, generally having the soul exist outside the body without the body dying doesn't even grant soul resistance. E.g. Saiki Kusuo can do that too.
 
Accelerate420 said:
Hmmm, well it clearly quotes the legend itself and even mentions the part about the 1000 years in hell. This is like me saying just because she says she can use it means she can't use it because she didn't use it regarding the power null skill. "The power of the right sent the lord of devils into Hell and ensured there he would be bound for one-thousand years" Bound - a limitation or restriction on feeling or action.
Sounds like Sealing to me.

Therefore it still applies.
Click to expand...

*Sigh* Even if, D can just negate the magic power behind the seal and by that destroy it. Or teleport out of it. Or leave her physical body and float out of it with her soul. Unspecific bound does nothing here.

Seriously nothing of this is relevant, because Fiamma doesn't get that far anyway.
 
Anyways, I'm going to sleep now.

To add in another fun fact: D usually is covered in darkness that blocks supernatural means of perception & targeting, so I wonder if Fiamma even knows she's there.
 
@DT I'm arguing soul ripping and soul haxing doesnt bother him much because of the HR ignores it. For example he has his soul taken but can still do magic when that needed to use magic, not having this means a lot in index. Aren't the bodies of 'ghosts' dead?

Inside the thirteen-sided object, standing in stupor, Fiamma's lips give a slight twitch. The sign of final resistance he was making with all his strength. [...] At that moment Fiamma's voice was heard, "Hmph." The Pope expression twisted into one of shock. This was not something someone who had been bound by such a spell should be capable of. Fiamma's voice adopted a light tone, "How pitiful... just two billion followers? Only two thousand years of history?"

The world disappeared.

-

Since when does fiamma need to know of his enemy? This is a vs match anyways.
 
Fiamma doesn't have to be aware of her due to HR Auto Detection and targeting. This was actually brought up with Hassan vs Fiamma.
 
Soul hax would not work on Fiamma. he had his soul removed and he didn't care.

before you say removed =/= destroy, it's the same result. his body functioned without a soul in it, and the purpose of the seal was to immobilise Fiamma via Soul removal, so you can't argue some vague mechanic like as long as the soul exists he would be fine, as there would be no point to using such a ability if that was the case, if said ability would even exist at all due to how useless it would be.

Also its very clearly demonstrated Fiamma does not need to know himself if someone is there or not, only the HR. To which I would ask what is the best feat that this darkness actually has to counter HR? otherwise it's NLF. HR can hit inanimate objects in outer space, nothing that would be emiting any sort of human presence (granted it was being hit by a laser, but still, it locked on and verified a non animate object as a threat and destroyed it)
 
Accelerate420 said:
Fiamma doesn't have to be aware of her due to HR Auto Detection and targeting. This was actually brought up with Hassan vs Fiamma.
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Except supernatural sensing also gets negated, meaning the Auto Detection ain't working.

TIHYDDWBE said:
Soul hax would not work on Fiamma. he had his soul removed and he didn't care.

before you say removed =/= destroy, it's the same result. his body functioned without a soul in it, and the purpose of the seal was to immobilise Fiamma via Soul removal, so you can't argue some vague mechanic like as long as the soul exists he would be fine, as there would be no point to using such a ability if that was the case, if said ability would even exist at all due to how useless it would be.
Click to expand...
It isn't the same result. The soul still exists, it is just separate. Every single character with Astral Projection can do that and it doesn't mean they have soul manipulation immunity. The soul functions just fine, the only additional challenge would be to maintain a connection between body and soul if you still wish to operate the body. Which isn't even that difficult since in Index a lost soul and its body are connected by a "thin string" anyway (see volume 2), so moving a body with the soul outside of it is an issue of minimal resistance.

If you want to claim soul manipulation immunity go make a CRT. Make it nice and short, post the quote and get another admin to tell you that it doesn't amount to anything close to that.

As it stands Fiamma only has resistance which gets casually ignored by D.


Heck, D also canonically used things like mind manipulation above Fiamma's resistance and time stop. She has a bunch of win cons she canonically uses in combat, while the only thing Fiamma does that MAYBE works (and with that I mean most likely gets negated) is something he never actually is shown to use.
 
I'm starting to think Fiamma vs Beast needs to be readded if Fiamma literally never used....
 
Schnee One said:
I'm starting to think Fiamma vs Beast needs to be readded if Fiamma literally never used....
Click to expand...

"The Right Hand which creates all miracles will destroy all evil. The power of the Right sent the Lord of Devils into Hell and ensured there he would be bound for one-thousand years. If I can completely master the Holy Right... are you not curious as to what is inside it?"
For the record this is all ever said or shown on the issue. It does in fact not even describe how any of that was actually done.
 
@DT Where are you getting the HR is supernatural sensing? You can't supernaturally sense an inanimate laser beam or a space station. It literally matches the threat, its reactive evolution, nature of it's output is regulated to it's enemy's difficulty. Like how wolfgang's briah makes him always faster than than his enemy. Fiamma's entire gimmick is to be a power-scaler. It's a threat detector more than anything which is why Fiamma was able to beat Hassan as well in a past debate.
 
@Accelerate

Supernatural sensing word wonders against Hassan as he's a spirit, so that's probably not the best example
 
DontTalkDT said:

"The Right Hand which creates all miracles will destroy all evil. The power of the Right sent the Lord of Devils into Hell and ensured there he would be bound for one-thousand years. If I can completely master the Holy Right... are you not curious as to what is inside it?"
For the record this is all ever said or shown on the issue. It does in fact not even describe how any of that was actually done.
Click to expand...
Not true, this miracle is described and referenced in a few places.

"Furthermore, the Right Hand of The Likeness of God has the distinction of being the greatest weapon in history, having cast down an uncountable number of Fallen Angels; even The One Who Challenged the Light was defeated when opposed by the Right Hand of The Likeness of God. It is such an overwhelming power."

The embodiment of the power of the Right Hand itself. The Holy Right."

It says the right hand produces this power to cast down an uncountable number of angels, dunno whats so difficulty to understand. LPSaD with mastered HR who can obviously reproduce all of them as opposed to the ones related to the right hand. Saying he wont use miracles in LPSaD is wrong since he only had the state momentarily, you can't compare it to base who stated he was relucant to show it off in it's incomplete state, and he tried to use them all to the fulliest to purify the foundation which was the point of his plan.

-

Also HR isnt supernatural sensing??? It literally responds to the need and hardship faced by automatically regulating it's output.
 
Lol if HR was just supernatural sensing it would not work on IB in the first place , as the sensing would be negated


On the soul part , it's not immunity but it still works to counter it when HR is active, btw the pope is not the only example all the soul and mind corrupting stuff he did read and control during ww3 (the parachement, controlling Gabriel ,etc)

Btw DT I don't know much so i will not vote for now but did u consider pendex or will it be forever be ignored in every thread?


Ps: fiamma vs Beast was before the CTR on fiamma tho
 
Schnee One said:
@Accelerate
Supernatural sensing word wonders against Hassan as he's a spirit, so that's probably not the best example
Click to expand...
Presence Concealment negates that logic, especially on the level of Hassan's.
 
@DT @THY

Equating astral projection to offensive soul hax is false equivalence. Astral projection is not a enemy ability and is just a projection of their soul outwards whilst the Pope's spell is a enemy attack. Saying it's a minor resistance is utter downplay, one as it is fortified by the RC followers, years of history and Vatican and it is an offensive soul manipulation meant to effect the body via soul extraction. Why would you compare a lost soul or projection to a soul removal and sealing attack?

Using other verses as a basis for soul characteristics doesn't matter as they all treat the soul differently. For example it would be like saying every human in Supernatural is immune to soul manipulation because their soul can be destroyed, taken, and manipulated and they will still be alive. In index a soul merely means something else.

Furthermore, since you bring up volume 2, said volume uses lifeforce and soul interchangeably. For example 1,

"In essence, their original fuel, lifespan and lifeforce, could not simply be compared to a human's. Or rather, more accurately, their lifeforce was infinite so of course, the amount of magic they could use was on a completely different level."

"With no wounds, no bleeding and no illness, she simply died. Like a consumed battery, she was expended. If souls existed, hers was extracted from her flesh, leaving behind an empty shell."

2, A string of something connecting a body to a soul doesn't mean anything, you would just be using qualifiers from other verses. And saying that this is the reason a Pope level spell can easily be countered has no root or basis from any of the text.

3, Leivinia Birdway even says the soul is like crude oil to be refined into usable magic.

"Even in the magic side, there are a flood of different theories as to the definition of the soul, so this part is rather difficult to explain… If you think of the energy flowing through the human body as crude oil, then it is necessary to refine it into gasoline before using magic"

As THY said in their previous post, the vague soul mechanic excuse doesn't fly. Unless you think people in index can survive or use magic without lifeforce/soul your argument makes no sense. So above FRA
 
Can someone count the votes? What score are we at?

Pretty much everything needed to be said about fiamma has been said already...
 
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