FF7 Fix Part 2

[Cyberblader90]

Nearly full credit to Tarta for this one. Dude is amazing. bare with us, because this crt is LONG

Intro​

This is an upgrade that affects the lower tiers of the Final Fantasy VII verse. This includes 1st and 2nd Class SOLDIER members, early game Zack, Midgar section characters of the original game (and a bit after the events of Midgar for the party), the Turks and Player Turk in the first part of Before Crisis.

The big change is thanks to new evidence in the Remake that proves that it is possible to scale the characters to low tier Summons as early as Midgar, reinforcing some evidence that was already in Before Crisis, but was a bit lacking.

Scaling to Summons​

This is already known by this point, but I wanted to go through this part to emphasize how prevalent it is in the franchise and how relevant it is, given this is what makes up a large part of the scaling.

Through the series it is very common that characters must earn their Summons, be it because Summons will not accept working for someone they don't respect or the creature may flat out lose control or attack the summoner. The most common way to do this is to defeat the Summon in combat, showing you're worthy or at least proving your might to them.

The main point of interest is, of course, Ifrit, for his description as shown in Dissidia: Final Fantasy:

Here are a some examples using this Summon, the main point of scaling in this revision:

Spoiler

Summon usage examples

• Final Fantasy IV: Ifrit is not properly fought during the main story as he has already joined Rydia when she reappears. However, Rydia needs Asura and Leviathan's help. Both tell Rydia she has to prove herself in combat. And accept to join once they are defeated. Asura even mentions this is a rule in Feymarch, the land of the Summons in FFIV, which means Rydia must have fought and earned Ifrit in the past, which is more or less confirmed in Rydia's Lunar Trial, where she must reencounter her Eidolons and Ifrit openly states that he doesn't trust humans and his trust must be earned through battle.
• Final Fantasy V: Bartz finds Ifrit, but the Summon says only those who can withstand his flames are worthy of being his summoners. And after winning, Ifrit is content and accepts to work for Bartz and his team.
• Final Fantasy VI: After Kefka has extracted all magic from Ifrit and Shiva, he disposes of them. If the party tries to interact with them, they will be repelled by the Esper's power and Ifrit will attack. After battling him he will sense Ramuh and calm down, however, the strength displayed by the party will earn their trust and he, along Shiva, will grant their Magicites to the party.
• Final Fantasy VII: While there are no fights in the original game as the Summon Materia to Summon are simply found by or given to the party, Crisis Core shows that defeating Summons causes the creature to revert back to their Materia, which happens to Ifrit. Zack obtains the Materia later on because it's explained in mission briefings that he handed over to Shinra the Materia he obtained and Shinra managed to relocate the creatures, allowing Zack to go after them, defeat them and get another copy of the Summon Materia for his own use. Being strong enough to control Summons being a requirement is reinforced by a scene with Yuffie later on which, though played for laughs, shows that if you are not strong enough the Summon will simply go out of control, something very real given Zack's alarmed reaction and Yuffie returning a very rare Materia willingly. In the Remake, Ifrit is given to Cloud by Jessie during the story, however, there's a major difference (aside what will be explained below): Chadley reveals that he found out how to artificially create Summon Materia, but in order to test if the Materia is the real deal, he needs Cloud to fight the Summons in the Battle Simulator, which as explained in Crisis Core poses very real danger (Chadley uses a portable version of the same one in Shinra's facilities). As expected, given how Summons become useable and formidable allies after obtaining them, Chadley's theories were spot on. The first Summon obtained this way is Shiva, which is Ifrit's equal and shows that Cloud is stronger than Summons under his command, Ifrit being no exception (and you can beat Ifrit later on anyways).
• Final Fantasy VIII: In order to take the SeeD field exam it was necessary for Squall to go to the Fire Cavern and defeat Ifrit as a prerequisite. He does just that alongside Quistis, they battle the GF, and this joins upon defeat.
• Final Fantasy IX: Here Ifrit isn't earned per se, but rather Dr. Tot gives Garnet the Topaz which grants the power of Ifrit (alognside the Opal for Shiva and the Amethyst for Atomos). Or to be more clear, it would simply give back Garnet the power of the Eidolons which was always hers and were forcibly taken by queen Brahne.
• Final Fantasy X: Once again Ifrit is not fought to be earned, Yuna gains Ifrit through the Summoner ritual and prayer. However, Yuna has to fight Ifrit in a couple of ocassions, such as the encounter with Belgemine, who uses Ifrit against her as a way to test if Yuna is capable as a Summoner, at test in which Yuna succeeds even without using Ifrit herself, which shows Summoners are still comparable to their Aeons again for them to gain them in the first place.

To add on to the example above from ff4, it is explicitly stated you must be on par or stronger than the summon or they will kill you.

The bottom note is: if someone can use properly a Summon then that person is as strong or stronger than that Summon, so simply having an useable Summon in the party is enough for the Summoner to scale to the feats of his Summons, unless it's explicity noted otherwise.

In addition to this, the Remake revealed that the Northern Region frozen state is thanks to Shiva freezing the whole place to, in a way, stop the wound caused by Jenova. Shiva, most of the time, is played as Ifrit’s elemental counterpart and equal throughout the franchise and having such a feat helps reinforce Ifrit’s case.

In that regard, given the statements of Ifrit reducing the world to ashes, his statement of being capable of untold devastation and capable of burning down anything in his path feels less like a hyperbole. Such mentions are not uncommon among Summons, reinforcing how overwhelmingly powerful they are. Leviathan aside controlling the world’s oceans in other installments, here is mentioned to be capable of preventing great disasters and, once again, being the deity of Wutai, the nation which went to war against Shinra and their forces, including SOLDIER. Bahamut is also hyped up as capable of untold destruction.

Current Situation:​

Current scaling states that 2nd Class SOLDIER Zack scales to Ifrit by virtue of defeating him in Crisis Core, which applies to 2nd Class SOLDIER members and the original game party by the time they obtain the Ifrit Materia.

There are other important cases that benefit from this that are yet to be added to the wiki, such as Essai and Sebastian (two 2nd Class friends of Zack), the Player Turk in earlier points (main character of Before Crisis) and the second version of Ravens (special soldiers created by the AVALANCHE branch fought in Before Crisis).

Related to this, as of now the lowest tiers of Final Fantasy VII are currently 9-A due to scaling to the explosion of the Airbuster, a boss fought in the Midgar section of the game. This currently applies to Cloud and the main party during the Midgar section of the game, 3rd Class SOLDIER members (who are fought by that point), Rufus and Reno, who are bosses in this part.

Upgrade to High 6-A​

It was possible to argue with material from Before Crisis that the low tiers could scale to Ifrit, essentially as the Player Turk and Cloud fought Ravens very early on (Cloud empowered by his emotions) and the creator of the Ravens (AVALANCHE's modified version of SOLDIER precisely as an anti-SOLDIER measure), Fuhito, explicitly says that the Ravens were made to surpass SOLDIER. Ravens are later shown easily defeating Essai and Sebastian, two 2nd Class SOLDIER members, as mentioned above.

The issue I had with this initially was that Ravens were enhanced using the data of SOLDIER they managed to steal from Shinra between their first and second appearance, so the version that scales and easily defeated 2nd Class SOLDIER were already stronger versions.

However, with the Remake and the evidence provided there, things point towards characters being indeed on Tier 6 since Before Crisis was indeed correct from the beginning and that characters scale to Ifrit as soon as the original story begins:

As mentioned above, in Chapter 3 Jessie gives the Ifrit Materia to Cloud. Later on, during the events of Chapter 4, Cloud alongside Jessie, James and Meowth Biggs and Wedge, sneak into the 7-6 Annex Shinra Warehouse to steal materials. During the operation, the group is attacked by squads of Infrantrymen, Shock Troopers, Guard Dogs (which are actually genetically enhanced monsters used by Shinra) and machinery. When fighting all those enemies, the Ifrit Materia is unusable, despite Biggs warning Cloud to equip it to prepare for the upcoming fight just moments earlier. However, once the Shinra personnel sends out the Sweepers mechs, the Materia will be useable for Summoning.

The tutorial that follows explains the reason: Summons only fight opponents they consider worthy. If the enemy is formidable enough, the Summon in the Materia decides to jump into action. From a gameplay perspective this may simply be to avoid abusing Summons in every battle or because of the different sizes given all the places you can fight in, the Summon wouldn't perform well (though this could be easily solved with the personal dimensions). But, the in-story justification is the one given in the tutorial.

This event is pretty relevant, even without considering what was mentioned above about how Summoners scale to their Summons, because the Sweepers are enemies that are fought at the very beginning of the game, as early as the first bombing mission in the Mako Reactor 1. While, Cloud and Barret treat it as a dangerous foe, they manage to win and continue to their objective without much issue. This also happens in the original Final Fantasy VII, Sweepers are one of the enemies encountered in the Sector 1 reactor.

This essentially means that as soon as the game begins, Cloud, Barret, Tifa and Aerith are stronger than enemies comparable, if weaker than Ifrit, which only escalates from there, as the party fights much stronger Shinra mechs and enemies during the course of the events of Midgar. The case is pretty straightforward for the cast in Remake, who can directly fight and defeat Summons. However, this makes a strong case for the original game.

Furthermore, the interview in Famitsu with Tetsuya Nomura, director of Final Fantasy VII: Remake, in February 25th 2021, has Tetsuya himself explain in the section regarding The First SOLDIER (which will explain how the unit was formed to begin with) that SOLDIER members must fight Shinra Mechs as part of their to simulate real combat experiences. So essentially, even the weakest members of SOLDIER fight Sweepers (the interview points out Cutters, which are a variant of Sweepers) and stronger machines like the Scorpion Sentinel (or Guard Scorpion in the original game), which would mean the 3rd Class members, which are the SOLDIER the main cast encounters in the Shinra Building by the end of the Midgar section of the game and can defeat in battle as simple strong mooks. Another important part is that in The First SOLDIER it's also possible for the recruits to use and battle Ifrit.

Why should the original game count?​

As we know, with the revelations of the ending of Remake, the game is not a new take on the Final Fantasy VII setting, rather a sequel of sorts and the setting is the same of the original game but either in a different timeline or the original being deviated by Sephiroth’s plan to break free from fate. In that regard, most of what applies to Remake is applicable to the original game with the obvious exception of the deviations of the story that Sephiroth plotted to happen as part of his plan to change the future. Gameplay changes and things obtained differ by virtue of Remake being the first chapter of the story but still a complete game, but point being, the lore and story behind is the same before the deviations come in.

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New scaling​

All of the above essentially means that everyone in the Midgar section of the game is already High 6-A: Cloud, Barret, Tifa, Aerith, Red XIII, Reno, Rude, Rufus and the Shinra staff including SOLDIER 3rd Class and their mechs.

The new scaling would go kinda like this:

Remake:

• Cloud and the party: At least High 6-A (Can control Ifrit, a Summon stated to have the power to burn down the world, and later defeat it in combat. Has also defeated Ifrit's equal Shiva, who permanently froze the Northern Continent 2000 years ago, and became stronger to defeat Summons above them, like Leviathan, who controls the oceans of the world, and Bahamut who surpasses all of them, earning their Materias to Summon them at their side)
• Red XIII: At least High 6-A (Despite having grown far weaker since the events of Before Crisis, likely due to Hojo's experimentation, still managed to fight alongside Cloud and his team, who were strong enough to defeat Summons like Ifrit, who can reduce the world to ashes, Shiva who froze the entire Northern Continent, Leviathan who controls the world's oceans, and Bahamut who is stronger than all of them)
• Reno and Rude: At least High 6-A (Despite having grown weaker since the decay of the Turks department since the events of Before Crisis, they still held their own against Cloud and his team, who had grown stronger since they fought and defeated Summons like Ifrit, Shiva and Leviathan, all whom have power on this scale. Far stronger than 3-C SOLDIER members, who regularly train by fighting Mechs comparable to Ifrit)
• Rufus and Darkstar: At least High 6-A (Held their own against Cloud in a duel, whom had grown stronger since defeating enemies, such as Sweepers and 3-C SOLDIER members, that were already comparable to Ifrit, who has the power to burn down the world)
• SOLDIER 3-C: At least High 6-A (As part of their training, even SOLDIER recruits have to fight Shinra Machines, like Sweepers and Scorpion Sentinels, that compare to Ifrit, a Summon who has the power to reduce the world to ashes)

Original Game:

• Cloud and the party: At least High 6-A (As early as the beginning of the story, they could defeat Sweepers, Shinra mechs recognized as worthy opponents by Ifrit, who has the power to burn down the world, as well as stronger machines such as the Guard Scorpion/Scorpion Sentinel, which are used to train by SOLDIER cadets, who themselves have access to and have fought Ifrit. Eventually grew strong enough to casually defeat full-fledged 3rd Class SOLDIER units)
• Red XIII: At least High 6-A (Despite having grown weaker since the events of Before Crisis, most likely due to Hojo's experimentation, Red XIII still fought alongside Cloud and his team, who can defeat 3rd Class SOLDIER members without problems and had grown stronger since defeating Sweepers and the Guard Scorpion mechs. Even SOLDIER cadets are capable of controlling and fighting the Summon Ifrit, who has the power to burn the world to ashes, and are trained by fighting mechs like the Guard Scorpion, while the Sweepers are considered formidable foes by Ifrit)
• Reno: At least High 6-A (Has grown weaker since the events of Before Crisis and the decay of the Turks Department. Even so, as a veteran Turk, should be far above SOLDIER cadets who can control and fight the Summon Ifrit, who can burn the world to ashes, and are trained by fighting mechs like the Guard Scorpion, a roboguard stronger than Sweepers, which are considered formidable foes by Ifrit. Despite being defeated, held his own against Cloud, Barret and Tifa at once, who had grown stronger since defeating Sweepers and a Guard Scorpion themselves)
• Rufus and Dark Nation: At least High 6-A (Held their own against Cloud in a duel, who can defeat 3rd Class SOLDIER members without problems and had grown stronger since defeating Sweepers and the Guard Scorpion mechs. Even SOLDIER cadets are capable of controlling and fighting the Summon Ifrit, who has the power to burn the world to ashes, and are trained by fighting mechs like the Guard Scorpion, while the Sweepers are considered formidable foes by Ifrit)
• SOLDIER 3rd Class: At least High 6-A (As part of their training, even SOLDIER recruits have to fight Shinra Machines, like Sweepers and Scorpion Sentinels, that compare to Ifrit, a Summon who has the power to reduce the world to ashes)

I'd add a note in the original game pages explaining why it scales to Remake to avoid confusion.

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The true power of Shinra's Weaponry​

This is, in a way, a minor note in the overall upgrade, but it's a point that's constantly brought up when discussing the tiering of Final Fantasy VII and how they shouldn't be beyond Tier 9 because guns affect them or Zack got killed by firearms. This assumes the weapons used in this setting are as weak as the ones in real life, which is completely wrong. To elaborate:

Shinra is a company that extracts Spirit Energy (commonly called Mako) to power their technology. Spirit Energy is what flows in the Lifestream, which is what houses all the different powers accessible through Materia, which includes, Magic, Commands, Summons and Support Effects. Shinra takes full advantage of this.

The company is constantly developing warfare technology and improving upon it. Among it's many divisions, the company has three particular departments of our interest here:

• Advanced Weaponry Division, led by Scarlet: As the name indicates, this division is in charge of developing Shinra's weaponry and war technology. This goes from the roboguardas and mechs such as the Airbuster and the Proud Clod, stationary weapons to guard important places like the Sentry Launchers and Sentry Rays, to the firearms and weapons used by Shinra's army.
• Research and Development division, led by Hojo:
• Public Security Forces (a fancy name for the army), led by Heidegger:

The weapons developed by the Weaponry Division at the very least, have to be useable by the members of other divisions of Shinra, which would include SOLDIER and the Turks. The First SOLDIER reveals that SOLDIER cadets do use firearms, but even if we put that aside and we consider that unit as strictly of swordsmen like it was seen until now, the Turks is a division that has all kinds of different fighting styles among its members, many of them specializing in firearms (even using a codename based on their weapon of choice), such as Emma (Gun), Freyra (Shotgun) and Ruluf (Two Guns). The weapons used by the Turks are even designed to be augmented with Materia an actual gameplay mechanic in Before Crisis.


While Materia is usually associated with the science department, it's shown that the weaponry division and the SOLDIER department (latter appended by the Public Security Forces) were shown to produce their own Materia: Remake shows Scarlett overseeing the creation of new Materia, while Crisis Core shows that SOLDIER had their own Materia laboratory (if I recall correctly, during the story, the researchers there lament to Zack that the lab was going to be shut down or moved to the Public Security Forces, but I can't find the proper cutscene and my own saves are past that point) and 1st Class members were expected to be able to create their own Materia via Materia Fusion, a mechanic Zack was an expert at.

the production and commercialization of artificial Materia, which essentially makes magic accessible to anyone who can buy it, development of mechs and machines designed for combat, which include the Airbuster, the Guard Scorpion/Scorpion Sentinel and the Prod Clod among others, the training and genetic procedure of the SOLDIER superhuman army program, the genetic engineering and production of monsters (which includes the dragons fought near Nibelheim), as well as the recruitment and training of the Turks, which are essentially their special agents in charge of delicate missions.

Essentially High 6-A with weaponry. Tthere actually is a good in-story reason for this one, not just plain scaling:
The Shinra Company actively develops and upgrades the weaponry their army uses to face the enemies of Shinra. Consider it for a bit, this is the same company that produces SOLDIER, Materia, trains the Turks, creates war mechs and has gone to war with people capable of giving trouble to that sort of technology either by having their own answers, Materia of their own, stealing their technology, etc. Specific scenarios include, for example, Scarlet upgrading her machines in order to hunt down the Player Turk when they were branded as traitors to Shinra, when the Player Turk was well above Ifrit’s level, or, another example, is sending the army to kill Zack, well knowing that Zack had defeated Angeal, Genesis and held his own against Sephiroth. Shinra essentially has the technology to develop super powerful entities and technology for their use, weaponizing the Mako they extract, so it would actually be less likely that said technology and power did not apply to their firearms, especially as they have had to deal with their own science and members turned against them in the past.

Now it may seem a bit crazy at first that everyone is so strong, but actually, everyone has good ways to actually have so much power, when considering the existence of Spirit Energy as well and how it works as essentially the Ki (Cosmo, Nen, Chakra, Reiki, Fuyoku, etc.) of the setting:

Will and Emotions in FF7

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tldr version is that spirit energy is an inverse universal energy system that is born from memories and emotions, that buffs all stats. The boosts from spiritual energy can be exponential, and most characters have access to this.

Beyond this, the main cast have some other reasonings:

• Cloud: Already as an infantryman it was shown his potential was enormous. Later got injected with Jenova Cells and bathed in Mako, essentially going through the SOLDIER procedure.
• Barret: Not as blatant as the rest, but he has been an anti-Shinra fighter for years and preparing a long time to take them down and their forces. Also in Before Crisis he already seemed to be physically stronger than the Player Turk. He also is well read in the Studies of the Planet’s Life which details the workings on the Lifestream and Spirit Energy.
• Tifa: Expert martial artist, trained by Zagan the best martial arts fighter in the world. Martial arts also include study and training in one’s energy. Zagan also noted that Tifa had talent.
• Aerith: Member of the Cetra with a massively high affinity and spiritual connection to the Planet and strong Spiritual Energy.
• Red XIII: Member of a race of incredibly long-lived and intelligent beasts that also share a connection with the Planet, though not as strong as the Cetra, possessing high spiritual aptitude. Not to mention, Red XIII kept up with the late game Player Turk in Before Crisis, who defeated Zirconiade, a Summon well above Bahamut Fury and below only the Knights of the Round. Meaning he actually got weaker during his time as Hojo’s lab rat dog (which makes sense given it left him scarred)
• Reno and Rude: Turks are essentially raised and trained since early childhood to be Shinra’s special agents and hitmen. Not to mention, in Before Crisis they were both fighting enemies that could overwhelm the Player Turk, if anything they grew weaker with the decadence of the Special Affairs Department.
• Rufus: While mostly a manipulator and businessman, he is clearly well trained. Not to mention, being the heir to a company who mass produces war machines, magical weaponry and super soldiers means said training did involve supernatural aspects.

CONCLUSION:
What would be the changes then?

Essentially, both original and Remake should get the following changes:

Cloud and the party:

• For the Remake: At least High 6-A (Defeated the Summons Ifrit, Shiva, Leviathan and Bahamut, earning their Materias and controlling them. Ifrit by himself can reduce the world to ashes, Shiva can freeze a continent and is played as Ifrit’s equal, Leviathan controls the world’s oceans and Bahamut is consistently far above the level of all of them)
• For the original game: At least High 6-A (During the events of Midgar, the party was already strong enough to casually defeat enemies who were deemed worthy opponents by Summons like Ifrit and Shiva, including Sweepers and 3rd Class SOLDIER members who train by fighting said Sweepers, as well as defeating stronger Shinra Mechs such as the Guard Scorpion and the Air Buster. Additionally, fought, and defeated Reno, who while likely weaker than his peak during Before Crisis, should not be far below 2nd version Ravens and 2nd Class SOLDIER members)
• 3rd Class SOLDIER (Including Roche): High 6-A (3rd Class SOLDIER can hold their own against Cloud and his team, who have defeated Ifrit, Shiva and Leviathan. Additionally, they routinely train fighting Sweepers, enemies whom Ifrit considers strong enough to step in to fight)
• 2nd Class SOLDIER (including Zack): At least High 6-A, likely higher (2nd Class SOLDIER members are far above the level of 3rd Classes, and his most iconic member, Zack Fair, could defeat Bahamut, who is well above Ifrit’s power.)
• Turks and Rufus: At least High 6-A (for defeating ifrit and other summons)
• Infantrymen: 9-B physically, up to High 6-A with weaponry (Reasons explained above)

Bonus: Why did zack to bullets?

Zack died to bullets for a few reasons:

1. He is revealed to be FATED to die in the remake. When cloud kills the arbiters of fate, it seemingly changes events, which is later proven true when zack survives his encounter with shinra. (Whispers are even scene here, observing so everything goes as fated.)

Whispers/Feelers: An accretion of Whispers, the so-called arbiters of fate. The creatures appear when someone tries to alter destiny's course. They are connected to all the threads of time and space that shape the planet's fate.

The elimination of the whispers changed zack's predetermined fate, allowing him to survive.

2. As explained above, shinra weaponry (even bullets) are not normal, and can hurt summons. All shinra tech had a massive overhaul to be able to fight genesis, so the tech they have on hand is meant to be able to harm the strongest members. of SOLDIER.
Zack also fought an army of fellow SOLDIERS and infantrymen (possibly hundreds or more) who had materia on hand, He battled them for HOURS.

3. Spirit energy amps require concentration and/or the right mental state. Given zack was exhausted when he was killed, he would be in this state, and thus not have any spirit energy empowerment at the time.

 

[Theglassman12]

This looks good. There’s also the FF4 lore in how you need to be stronger than the summons in order to summon them properly. So it’s not really inconsistent.

 

[Cyberblader90]

added

 

[Mister6ame6]

Seems good to me.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Agreed to this

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Looks good to me, agreed.

 

[Cyberblader90]

would also like to mention the ff7 remake kinda implements the premise of spiritual energy with its pressure system:

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Jesus ******* Christ, that OP though.

I agree with this but ******* Hell, take a break my guy.

 

[Cyberblader90]

NEVAH

im making a separate sephiroth crt as we speak

 

[Theglassman12]

This is gonna be Cyber once he finishes everything FF7 related.

 

[Shmooply]

jesus **** cyber you really need to take a break
Agree.

 

[Migue79]

I agree with this CRT.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Loyd]

sigh OP makes sense

would also like to mention the ff7 remake kinda implements the premise of spiritual energy with its pressure system:

this sounds more like a game mechanic does he mention spirit energy at any point?

 

[Cyberblader90]

spirit energy is included in lore and game mechanics. Limit breaks for example:

Will and Emotions in FF7

vsbattles.fandom.com

The pressure system is a reflection of this with how power increases. Pressure/heat is essentially the same system

 

[Dalesean027]

I actually finally finished reading it all I agree with everything presented

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Cyberblader90]

so has this been accepted?

 

[Theglassman12]

Do you see anyone disagreeing here? Cause I don’t see any. So it’s safe to say it’s accepted

 

[Cyberblader90]

now begins the long task of updates....

 

[Ab9987]

Hey, apologies if this is a bit late, or tangential, but concerning the Remake's key; would the High 6-A cover the entire game? It's just that Jenova's page lists even her weakest form as being superior to Bahamut Fury, who's 4-A. Lord knows if that'd still apply to the version you fight in Remake but eh. Less concretely I think one of the Ultimania's heavily imply the three named Whispers the characters fight in Chapter 18 may be the Remnants of Sephiroth.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Well it's unknown if those whispers still have the same level of power as when they were still living beings.

As for jenova, I would have to double check if that applies I know her most basic feat has been calculated at high 6-a

 

[Cyberblader90]

yeah, im not sure on remake jenova. that can be a separate crt if need be

 

[Cyberblader90]

alright, starting later today I will be updating all the profiles with this crt, and the previous three

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ff7-stats-fix-part-1.119763/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ff7-speed-upgrade.119241/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/sephiroth-upgrade-via-knights-final-fantasy-7.119093/

 

[Dalesean027]

alright, starting later today I will be updating all the profiles with this crt, and the previous three

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ff7-stats-fix-part-1.119763/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ff7-speed-upgrade.119241/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/sephiroth-upgrade-via-knights-final-fantasy-7.119093/

Sounds good to me, great work

 

[Ab9987]

True, the entire Whisper thing is a bit vague, plus Jenova's profile hardly elaborates on why it's believed her weakest fragment is still superior to Fury. Then there's the amped version of Weiss in the combat sim' and there's no reason to believe he's as powerful as he was in DoC either but he's still an amped SOLDIER 1-C and as a new SOlDIER 1-C Zack beat Bahamut Fury without much fanfare, and shortly thereafter he was able to control the summon but now I'm just ranting. As you said most of these would probably be their own CRT if they'd even warrant one etc.

 

[Cyberblader90]

if i recall the argument is that jenova's arrival prompted the sending out of 8 weapons, where as zirconaide required only 1, which would upscale jenova above bahamut fury

 

[Mageman460]

Wouldn't that be Prime Jenova and not just a piece though? Technically isn't that feat more attributed to Sephiroth as well?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Speaking of Remake files. Here is what Cloud's looks like currently.

Dragonmasterxyz/sandboxff7

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Cyberblader90]

Wouldn't that be Prime Jenova and not just a piece though? Technically isn't that feat more attributed to Sephiroth as well?

It scales to both prime jenova and seph. not sure on the pieces. I will have to wait for tarta to be on to ask

 

[Cyberblader90]

oh right something i want to add as a note to bahamut fury's page for speed, given how its speed has been controversial recently on the internet to use for combat

"Travel speed in this case can apply to reactions, Bahamut fury is able to react in time to slow down/stop in approach to earth while traveling at 1593 C. From bahamut's perspective, earth would be like a projectile heading towards him at mftl+ speeds, in which it is capable of reacting to it. Likewise, his body parts (like his arms) would need to be move at relative speeds or else it would a massive amount of time for its body to relation to its thoughts.

As Bahamut Fury was aware of its destination and would logically have to know when to start and stop, its mobility should logically scale to its reactions in battle.

As for Bahamut remaining stationary, This is what most enemies from the original game are shown as in combat. WEAPONs for example don't really move that much or at all when fighting them .Its essentially game mechanics."

something like this

 

[Cyberblader90]

speaking of:

Bahamut Fury takes flight Redux

vsbattles.fandom.com

needs evaluation

 

[Cyberblader90]

since the above calc affects several profiles, im going to hold off on editing until it gets checked by the calc team

since this on pause till then, and all other ff7 crts are closed, ill make the last revision thread for hax

 

[Cyberblader90]

I made part 3 for hax

Final Fantasy 7 Fix Part 3: Hax and The Power of the Lifestream

Welcome to the final part of the ff7 verse fix. Today we will be discussing some minor hax additions, and some controversial. Without further ado: Hax https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Cyberblader9/Will_and_Emotions_in_FF7 All first-class Soldiers have Memory Manipulation and...

vsbattles.com

this one has to wait to conclude till the bahamut calc above gets approved