Few Additions to the Calc Stacking Page

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In my opinion, I think it is relatively important for members to understand what Calc Stacking is. The page's generally description is fine where it is, but I think the examples lack variety. All three of them appear to be speed related; I personally think it's very important to include some AP/Durability stacking examples as well. Two primary examples of Power stacking that come to my mind are the multiple hits fallacy and the vaporization by tier multipliers. I shall explain both of those in listed format.

• Character A has an attack that was calc'd at 3 Gigajoules, which is 8-C or Building level. It takes exactly 20 hits for character A to KO Character B, so Character B's durability is 3*20 = 60 Gigajoules which is City Block level. Reason for this fallacy is that Character B should be invulnerable to Character A if their durability is that much greater. Character B's durability should only scale to the first hit and the other 19 hits should be treated as a stamina feat.
• Since it takes around 300 Megajoules to vaporize a normal human, and the high end of a normal human's durability is 100 joules, it takes 300*50 = 15 Gigajoules to vaporize a baseline 9-B character; which is Large Building level. This doesn't work because heat based attacks typically have limited durability negation unless character possesses some resistance to heat. Or at the very least, it can't be assumed that every single component, organ, or cell in someone's body automatically has that many multitudes greater heat capacity. It would be better to either compare sizes or go into scientific details about the elements of that said golem/robot.

Both examples could possibly be worded better, but I think it's important to add these and possibly other/similar examples on the Calc Stacking page to let both Calc Group members and regular members training to become Calc group members to become more familiar to what the general concept is.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It's not usually assumed that heat based attacks negate durability...

That aside, I don't mind an example for calc stacking different than speed being added to the examples.

That said your two examples aren't calc stacking.

Calc stacking means one shouldn't use results of one calc for another calc.

Your examples on the other hand both fail due to the fact that the suggested multiplier is not legitimate.

Consider that if the durability that the multiplier is based on wasn't calculated, but instead based on a reliable statement, those arguments would still not work, due to exactly the same reasoning.

(At least I think that is the case. Reading it again I'm not quite sure what your second argument is saying. Where did you get the *50 from? (•╠î.•╠æ )╦Ç╠ú╦Ç╠ú As I initially understood it it's the assumption that vaporizing a character with x times the durability of a human would take x times the energy necessary to vaporize the human. Is it that or something different?)

 

[Golden_Void]

I'm pretty sure if a building level character could do damage with one hit yet not injure the person in any notable way, that other person is building level as well. That's like saying if Ip Man is street level and it takes him 30 hits to KO Mike Tyson, that Tyson is nearly 9-B, which isn't the case at all.

I agree with DT on the rest.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, multiple hits thing was definitely something that shouldn't be counted. It's generally considered that a character with 4 or 5x greater durability than character A's AP is invulnerable to Character A. I vaguely recall another one of our former Calc group members suggesting that to be the very definition of Calc Stacking. I mean, using the Calc from Character A's attack calc, and then performing a calc to multiply Character B's durability. For example, it's not like 10-C character as capable of KO'ing a 3-A character even with 7.11*(10^92) hits. Additionally, characters can survived attacks with higher AP than their durability, as long as it isn't massively greater.

And as for the second one, I don't necessarily mean it ignores conventional durability, especially if the character has heat resistance. Vaporizing a Cockroach for example, which has 9-B durability against blunt force for example, was calculated to be a 10-A feat. And I meant, I made a calc in which a 8-C character vaporized 4 other 8-C characters which resulted in 8-C assuming they were normal human sized. If I did the multiplier of dividing 8-C character's durability by a normal human's high end durability, I would have resulted in Small City level.

I got *50 because baseline for 9-B divided by high end of 10-B is 50. I believe that to be calc stacking because it combines the normal human vaporization value and multiplies it by the divisor of Character X's durability by normal human's durability. Obviously vaporizing an elephant is much higher than 9-A, and vaporizing a normal human sized iron statue is also much higher than 9-A, but vaporizing a peak human/base line superhuman character, who is less than 9-A and still normal human sized is still 9-A. Vaporizing characters higher than 9-A is also higher than 9-A, but that vaporizing a normal human sized 7-C character should still just be 7-C for example; Calc'ing the vaporization of a 7-C character to 6-C via dividing the 7-C character's durability by normal humans durability and using that calc to multiply by the vaporization of a human calc would be Calc Stacking.

I do appreciate your input, but I'd like to here other Calc group members and staff members thoughts first. I got RL work, but I should be able to check again in less than 9 hours from now.

 

[Golden_Void]

Moved to Calc Group Discussion. Maybe you'll get more answers :^)

 

[FanofRPGs]

As mentioend prior, I am not sure if this is calc-stacking as much as fallacious calculation (We need a page on calculation fallacies.

For the first one, I am torn. While I agree that its a stamina issue, its also a durability one. It also depends where one is getting hit. Like if a guy takes fifteen 5 megajoule punches in one spot to be pierced and have that portion of his body destroyed. I think it should count as 75 megajoule durability for him. If he is just taking punches everywhere, without explicit mention, then I would agree its moreso an issue of stamina.

For the second one, I have never heard one use such scaling. Makes no sense to me.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

For the second one, I have never heard one use such scaling. Makes no sense to me.

Seen it at least twice myself, actually. It's not as common as the first, but there are people who try to do it regardless.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalk

Are there any additions that you would like to perform to the calc stacking page?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, here's the thing. A Googleplex number of consecutive normal human punches =/= 3-A attack potency regardless of which spot it hits. A 3-A character should always be invulnerable to anyone less than 3-B. And actually, I got other examples, BFG 9000 was calc'd at 28.75 Kilotons; Cyberdemon can withstand multiple BFG 9000 headshots. And we still consider that Town level durability rather than multiplying it by insert number of hits, which could vary from Large Town level to City level; that would be another example of Calc Stacking.

So in other words, it's still very important to note that if character A' has significant multitudes greater durability than character B's AP, then Character A should be completely invulnerable to Character B. I mean, I can do 255 push ups without taking a break IRL, but that doesn't mean I can lift 255x my own body weight. I've also taken several hundred punches to the Abdominals as a RL workout; and somehow, I doubt my Abdominals have several hundred times greater durability then the Athletic human in front of me; otherwise, by abs would be bullet resistant.

And as for the second one, I know it's a less common fallacy, but I do know of at least one other user who tried doing that. If you take this calc and this calc for example, those are decent examples of vaporization value calcs that are acceptible. But one user complained that I should stack Kig-Yar having Wall level durability and dividing that by a normal human's durability to result in an exaggerated calc. On topic, Cockroaches have Wall level durability in terms of blunt force trauma, but a lit candle is all it takes to vaporize a cockroach; which the same fire would at best give a human being a scar.

I mean, the energy required to vaporize a 62 kilogram normal human is 300 megajoules, fact. Energy required to vaporize 4 62 kilogram normal humans is 1.2 Gigajoules, that's good. Energy required to vaporize a giant 1000x greater than a human is 300 Gigajoules, that's alright too. But, saying that the energy required to vaporize a 62 kilogram character with Wall level durability and no heat resistance feats is 15 Gigajoules via 5000 joules/ 100 joules, would be considered Calc Stacking.

So in other words, consecutive hits does likely mean higher AP, but simply adding that AP of ever hit together is stacking. Same with vaporization, it's likely that characters with higher durability require more energy to vaporize, but assuming every cell in the person's body has exact multitudes greater heat resistance is stacking.