Feat Evaluation Request

[Dargoo_Faust]

Heyo. Prefacing a CRT here. I'm going to drop this quote and ask what tier the character is, specifically concerned with if this is an Outerveral feat. No other context will be given but some perceptive readers will probably tell what verse this quote is from.

The Creator has countless aspects, avatars, incarnations, and manifestations across the whole of the infinite layers of existence, innumerable layers of nonexistence, and the numberless layers of transcendence beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence. In one of those layers of nonexistence, the one who would soon be known (in one incarnation) as [snip] comes into being. Or, more accurately, He wills the predominating aspect of his presence from non-being to being, from void to reality, yet still encompassing both. Giving Himself the name of Yahweh (among many others), this manifestation of the Creator, after much thought and contemplation, has decided to create a universe. He had it all planned out too: this universe would be a work of both science and art, producing unending complexity from stark simplicity. There would be an infinite fractal hierarchy of spacetime and mass-energy, of worlds within worlds without end, the worlds themselves generated by an almost unimaginable variety of physical forces, from cosmic inflation to a universal wavefunction. For each level of spacetime, there would be a number of planes: physical, mental, spiritual, and conceptual. These planes would intersect, interpenetrate, and interact with each other, allowing profundity and meaning to take root in the network of worlds that make up the cosmos. There would also be an endless strata of cosmic laws, natural, spiritual, and otherwise, from the (relatively) local and environmental, to the fundamental and all-encompassing, all unified under a single superforce, a single source, a single law, a single mathematical equation, the Theory of Everything if you will. These would bring order and form to the macrocosm. The possibilities would be as endless as time itself, and as both unfolded, the dance of celestial bodies and fundamental particles, the harmonious music of the spheres, would reveal a beauty that would bring one to ecstasy, were one to see the full extent of it.

I'll note that he's still constrained by dimensions with the mention of "True Space" and "True Time", however they seem to transcend an infinite layered dimensional hierarchy nonetheless.

Misread discussion, ignore this.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I don't think so due to what you stated at the bottom, sounds contradictory. Without that then yes, it sounds like a solid 1-A description.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So apparently I misread, the entity mentioned in this quote is not contrained by "True Space" and "True Time", the unnamed avatar in the above quote is.

Big oof.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Honestly, I'm not the best at interpreting 1-A characters, but I know Azathoth and Sera are. I know Sera's busy, but Azzy has gotten more active. Perhaps Ultima Reality would also be a good choice.

 

[Skalt711]

So, an infinite-dimensional universe can be contained within a single layer of existence or non-existence.

But the most important thing is "The Creator has countless aspects, avatars, incarnations, and manifestations across the whole of ... layers of transcendence beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence".

I suppose that the layers of transcendence are superior to the layers of existence and the layers of non-existence, right?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

"True Time" and "True Space", depending on context, doesn't automatically equate to being limited by time. Some definitions of time can actually be 1-A depending on it being platonic (which the verse has a few examples of using platonic concepts, such as the Theory of Forms), and the way they describe it sounds eerily similar to something I remember from a Marvel revision thread that was considered 1-A anyways...

Anyways.... I kind of agree with Skalt in the sense that that the duality thing is the most important part of the quote.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Skalt Yeah.

@2nd I was actually mistaken about the "True Time" and "True Space" bits, that applies to just the avatar of it.

@everyone

Thanks for the evaluations so far!

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

it is suggverse isn't it

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

it is suggverse isn't it

No, surprisingly.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

wait it isn't suggverse that's surprising what verse is it then?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Setsuna .... Let's just say it's a pretty popular Tier 1 verse.

@Dargoo ... Understandable.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Everyone's favorite drunk uncle here, ready to (possibly needlessly) pick things apart.

I will save my rant on things regarding the secret (for now) verse itself, because this thread is supposed to be purely about the quote, so I'll say what I said before; while you could interpret parts of this as 1-A, a lot of it is word salad almost certainly written with vs debating in mind. Let's go over a few things.

"The Creator has countless aspects, avatars, incarnations, and manifestations across the whole of the infinite layers of existence"

While I'm tempted to say something like "infinite layers of existence" is high-end Tier 1 out of habit, I'll point something out; nowhere does it clarify that these layers are infinitely above each other, or what exactly they are. It's written like the kind of thing we tend to gravitate towards for higher tiers without giving us much else.

"innumerable layers of nonexistence"

This is another thing that doesn't actually mean much without context, but we love our nonexistence, so...

"and the numberless layers of transcendence beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence."

Oh, my favorite. B I G D I C K T R A N S D U A L I T Y. For almost every verse, I would like to know exactly what this is supposed to mean in-universe before basing an incredibly high tier off of it.

A lot of the rest says a lot while simultaneously saying very little. Yes, this is stuff you could view as 1-A, but it's also a lot of stuff written to catch eyes like ours despite the fact that most of it is never given the proper explanation we usually require for this stuff.


If it seems like I'm being picky, well...firstly, we should try to be as precise as possible with all tiers this high. Secondly, the other half of my problem with this lies beyond just this quote, but that would go against the current point of this thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Azathoth makes sense here.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Putting context aside, what tier would this be, if not 1-A, @Azzy?

Unless the verdict is "needs more information before we can even really evaluate",

 

[PsychoWarper]

Since I know what verse this is I cant wait to see Azzys rant kek.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The fact that this is even up for debate despite its blatancy makes me really question how legitimate some of out other 1-A profiles are

 

[Keeweed]

Is this from scp?

 

[Skalt711]

@Keeweed

Yup.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I think what Azzy said is completely right. While it may seem like nitpicking, we need to hold tiers such as 1-A to a high standard, and, to me, it just seems way too vague.

and now that i know the context i have some extreme doubts about this feat but that's beside the point

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Putting context aside, what tier would this be, if not 1-A, @Azzy?
Unless the verdict is "needs more information before we can even really evaluate",

Really, in this case, it's more "I feel like the information we were given is what we wanted, not what we needed". In this specific case, there's a lot goin' for intent and source here, as I know 1-A is almost certainly what was intended, but I am seriously questioning how it was conveyed.

But this whole rant is really only half complete, for obvious reasons.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

The fact that this is even up for debate despite its blatancy makes me really question how legitimate some of out other 1-A profiles are

Oh, and i also agree with this, but again, besides the point. That's a discussion for another time.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The fact that this is even up for debate despite its blatancy makes me really question how legitimate some of out other 1-A profiles are

I'mma level with you.

There's probably at least a few issues somewhere I just haven't noticed, but boy do I suck at getting around to these things.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Crimson This is the second, potentially third 1-A feat in the verse

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

i dropped out of the Discord so i wouldn't know what the other ones are

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

My main question is how the flipping heck you can tell between "This feat was meant to make this verse strong as heck for vsdebating" and "this is meant to reveal what the verses' cosmology and lore to a far higher extent".

For all we know this is just a person who wanted more transcendent ideas into the verse.. Not neccessarily a vsdebater who wants to see SCP specifically at 1A...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

My main question is how the flipping heck you can tell between "This feat was meant to make this verse strong as heck for vsdebating" and "this is meant to reveal what the verses' cosmology and lore to a far higher extent".

If you want me to answer that, I'm gonna have to go into the verse specific part. Even though people let this cat out of the bag almost immediately, I don't really want to screw this further without Dargoo's permission.

Though for at least part of that, look to reasons in my original comment.

 

[PsychoWarper]

My main question is how the flipping heck you can tell between "This feat was meant to make this verse strong as heck for vsdebating" and "this is meant to reveal what the verses' cosmology and lore to a far higher extent".

Terminology would be one way and another potential way is if you know someones SCP account name and look at the articles author.

There's probably more but thats all I got for now.

 

[Skalt711]

I suppose that yes, the transcedence over the existence-nonexistence duality means a lot of things, not just the transcedence over the duality itself.

As for the superior layers of existence or layers of non-existence, they don't require the transcedence over the dimensional concept (aka 1-A potency) to exist. The layers might have structures superior to the infinite-dimensional ones in an inferior layer, but it's likely that they will still obey to the dimensional concept.

The only 1-A evidence is the "layers of transcendence beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence" phrase. But it means little when its work is not explained. Ummm, the phrase is too vague in its definition then.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Ok I know its not relevant as its not about the content but the way thats written flows terribly. The whole thing from a purly literary perspective is a mess, it's inconsistent with past and present tense.

I suppose it could be argued they are trying to protray the confusion our minds would have at such an incomprehensible entity/scale but thats an aweful excuse. Especially as such things have been far more artfully done in literary works.

 

[Holyhotsauce]

Since there is no point in trying to get away from verse specific discussion, I'mma have to ask @Azzy to give us the second part of the rant.

Also, because of the verse it comes from, verse specific discussion is basically essential in this case.

 

[Skalt711]

I think that The pen or the sword makes sense.

 

[PsychoWarper]

This is gonna go south very very fast

But yeah what The pen or the sword said is right, it doesnt flow well at all (But that doesnt mean much here).

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Azzy.... That IMO isn't enough.... What you said at least. It only talks about that it lacks context (which makes sense considering this was just for the quote.... Not the entire article it comes from) and that those concepts were done to death in other verses to make it "sound impressive" ... along with your statements about not liking the way the canon is set up (although you made your point clear in previous revisions... I'm not certain why we can't just do one key with canon and the other incorporating everything else... But again that's getting into other subject matter I'd not go into without Dargoo's permission) . Nothing in that article itself suggests it was made with vsdebating in mind... Unless we assume every time transduality or metaphysical term is used in new cosmology and lore previous unknown until then we immediately disregard it out of it possibly being worded for vsdebating purposes in mind ...

But I agree with the others.... Coming to a consensus about how we treat SCP canon and how to integrate feats is the only way we are getting past this "feat block" ... Because it's the same repetitious responses and reasoning that halts everything involving SCP.... So we need to get this over with and dealt with.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I really didn't want this to devolve into SCP discussion since we're still compiling and analyzing feats.

Also whoever added the categories and Skalt, uncool. I was very clear I wanted this to be discussed out of context of the verse in question.

@Azzy Seeing as the cat's out of the bag you can go ahead.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Before Azzy rips us a new one, I just want to make it extremely clear that just because we're analysing this feat, it does not mean we are 100% going through with it. There's a reason the downgrade thread has an up and coming part 2.

 

[Skalt711]

@Dargoo Faust

I didn't even touched the SCP context

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I mean, it said SCP-343 before in the quote.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Im not even going to accuse it of being made for vs debating Im more curious as to how this is considered valid. What are the quality standards for this verse?

Mini rant ahead, sorry

The way the paragraphs end is way to sudden, the sentences don't flow into one coherent thought, and past and present tense are mixed with wild abandon. I'm not a good writer, (especially when writing replies) but I haven't written anything that messy since high school. (edit even than the closest I came was when I was rushing history homework after staying up all night)

mini rant over,

As for the actual feat I feel it lacks enough context to be valid for 1-A, or at least it needs to be rewritten in a way that doesn't leave the reader picking through what they've just read. As it is figuring out what its trying to say/imply is a challange, due to lack of context (and writing)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Thanks, Dargoo.

There is a reason the quote above is suspicious in how "vs debate-y" it is. It's from the SCP Foundation wiki. The page is less than a month old, and made by a user with no karma whose only recent activity is this page and an intentionally busted Skip in the sandbox. When the page was first discovered, there were like five upvotes, and as of the time of this writing, there are only eight. There are two comments not from the page's creator in the discussion section. One of which questions if the page should even be on the wiki due to its nature, and the other is a single word comment from one of our own users.

That is why this page seems so lax on the details, other than stuff sites like ours would often look at and say "bro, that's powerful af". Because it was pretty obviously made with stuff like that in mind.

Do you remember when people wanted to get rid of SCP from the wiki? How it was better off here than the wiki for fan creations? Remember how one of the counters was akin to "it's not like some guy can just waltz in and make a page"? That's what this is. This is some guy making an page that is fishing for hyper-metaphysical power levels and whatnot, and us legitimately considering using it for scaling multiple characters.

****, verses we don't even have on the site would have more standards applied to them than this. At least with something like the expanded Cthulhu Mythos, we could make a rule that goes something like "Must be a published piece of material, and must take place within the 'Cthulhu Mythos' setting". It seems like no matter how many times we try to establish rules like this, we just...don't? In favor of trying to make some grand unified tiering and hierarchy structure that does not actually exist across the entire site, as it is a collection of canons from different people with different ideas, some of whom have been editing for ages and some of whom have only added a single thing.

I'm sure some people think I hate this verse, but I don't. I really don't. The Foundation is an incredibly creative project with some creatures I absolutely adore. I've just grown so tired of how finding anything that will increase the verse's power level now seems to take precedent over any sort of logic. This is not remotely something we would allow for other verses, but I feel that often times, there just isn't enough to actually challenge it.

But we need to acknowledge that the verse isn't a grand unified canon with a set vision, and that yes, it sometimes is possible for someone to just waltz in and create something that really only exists to potentially expand the power of the verse or create more ridiculous characters, since we're talking about it right now.

I would like to stress that this isn't at all the fault of the Foundation or how they run things, but instead an unfortunate consequence of how our two sites interact. I could care less about how powerful or weak something is. If someone waltzes in and creates an SCP than becomes a staple to the site and is 1-A, then on its own, the Skip is 1-A. Consistency and trying to weave it into some grand cosmology would be entirely on us. If someone wants to make a super high tier character in their own head, I'm sure they can do it right now. But in most cases, that wouldn't send us down an insane spiral trying to retroactively apply all of this to an established verse with dozens and dozens of authors with differing visions. The issue is, and always has been, that we truly need more strict, defined standards for these things, and with a site like the SCP Foundation...it's not an easy task.

I probably didn't convey all of this very well since I'm exhausted and pretty out of it, but oh well. Hopefully this makes sense and can help people understand my absurd skepticism when it comes to stuff like this.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Well my rant was one upped... Thanks for giving your stance azzy, it's greatly appreciated and I am in agreement the staff should probably get together and hash out some stricter rules for verses like SCP foundation.