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Fate Revision Thread

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The speed in Fate is all over the place apparently. I doubt Iskandar was refering to causality reversing attack, since it doesn't use speed. Too bad there isn't more on this.

Galaxian, you tried to justify SoL/FTL Excalibur. How did that work out?
 
@Swag I mean, I have a blog post with some information supporting it, but the problem you run into is that the speed is vastly inconsistent over large distances and would only be applicable in close quarters if you use it like that.

They have to walk or manually cross large distances by other means, so it's a bit inaccurate for making their speed's that fast flat out.
 
@Reppu Understood! That's fair.

Yeah FTL Gae Bolg and/or Cu isn't flying.

I'm okay with accepting the MHS things.
 
It's too inconsistent to be accepted. I use it mostly for jokes,

What speed are we going to use and what justification?
 
Is there really any argument against the MHS feats besides the fact that they're not in main canon works?
 
Outlier.
 
It is a number of times higher, but that goes back to my question of is the main canon really completely incapapble of reaching those kinds of speeds?
 
Shrugs.

I thought about Kaleid. I think it should probably be scaled just to its own feats, given its dubious canonicity.
 
@Prom

But all of the Noble Phantasm are virtually identical to their original counterparts.

In addition, the vast majority of Noble Phantasm have been interrupted. There was never a successful wide-scale attack until Excalibur, and the magnitude of the explosio is comparable to the one seen in Fate/Zero.
 
Yeah, but the Servants are said to be weaker and its canonicity is a mess. Just because they're virtually identical doesn't mean we should scale them, as that'd open the doors to more cross-universe scaling when it probably doesn't really apply. I feel like it'd be a lot better idea to scale it from its own feats, which yes, would be of a comparable scale, but that doesn't mean we should scale things directly.
 
Well on the concept of Kaleid then, I can look through and see if there are any interactions where there could be a lightning calc that could be done for that specific series though.
 
The problem is finding its own feats, since there are few destructive feats in the series (i.e. Bazett throwing a tree is considered impressive), and the Servants are weak enough that Bazett can kill Archer and Lancer in rapid succession (that said, this Bazett seems to be unusually strong compared to her mainstream version).

At the same time, I remember there being a post which said that Kaleid Servants are basically Fate Servants but with several parameters ranked down, but I don't know where it is now. That said, it was mostly through word-of-mouth, since the post was entirely in Japanese.
 
Oh yeah, here's the blog.

It was translated and posted on the Type-Moon wiki.

"One part of the process of creating the Class Cards robs the Heroic Spirits of their reason and pollutes their egos by passing through the Ainsworth's "box." Only the Gilgamesh Archer Card shows the ability to retain its ego without being polluted, allowing Gilgamesh's personality to overwrite the user. The cards can manifest as their Heroic Spirits by gathering magical energy from the land. They possess no reason, and they possess a deteriorated, blackened appearance. The Heroic Spirits form around their Class Cards, utilizing them as their heart. Compared to their Servant counterparts, the blackened Class Cards have several "errors" from being stained, such as Noble Phantasms and Skills being ranked down. Their parameters are generally decreased by one or two ranks, and their loss of reason reduces their fighting ability and combat skill. They are considerably weaker due to these factors."
 
Yeah, I know.

Understooood. Well, even then they'd be Wall level at least and at least City level at best. Perhaps we could just scale them to Kaleid Medea being able to destroy Fuyuki and have them all at just normal City level?
 
@Prom

But some Servants are ridiculously stronger than others. For instance, Saber was drastically more powerful than Archer, Lancer, or Rider, and Berserker needed to be put down with Six Excaliburs being launched at once.
 
That's just... weird. We'd have to have calcs I guess, then?
 
@Prom

I guess. The latter case might have just been a case of God Hand getting in the way though, and Saber was beaten by having a fully charged Excalibur projection overpower her own Excalibur Morgan.
 
If it helps with Prillya...

Do we count this as lifting strength? Mirou

Darius made an ice dome and Caladbolg, doing this explosion was unable to penetrate. Drei c11

Supersonic arrow (because sonic boom) by Kuro. Drei c23

Illya makes an explosion. Result. (found in a respect thread so no source listed)

Illya dodges Kuro's arrows. 2wei c2

Rider-installed Miyu was carving ditches on the ground via Pegasus with ease and Bazett is tanking it like a champ. 2wei c15 Another ditch.

Bazett throwing a tantrum. 2wei c16
 
@Gemmy

Doubt it as a Lifting Strength feat, since it's Mirou using his projection to launch it like any other.

On the unsourced explosion, Chapter Ten, page 14-15.
 
@Repp Here's the thing though, that applies to the altered versions that they fight. I don't think that applies to the purified class cards that they use.
 
I agree with NEH on the servants speed. It makes no sense for us to scale Grand Order servants to FSN but not scale them to prototype with the excuse of "different summoning or we can't cross scale due to different continuity" when that is also a thing with scaling GO servants to FSN. It also doesn't make sense for me that Ozy or Arash would all of a sudden be 4-5 times slower, especially considering Nasu wrote the Camelot chapter.

Prototype isn't even a completely separate continuity due to the servants being present in FGO stories or the fact that Ayaka is a master in FSF. Also FSF Gil fought in Grail Wars in Fuyuki and it has been confirmed that the 5th and 4th HGW did happen in FSF so we can scale them to the FSF calc. If we use the high end of the FSF calc it's very close to the prototype calc which would make their speed consistent. The Enkidu Clac also places him anywhere between HHS to MHS+ so it doesn't seem to absurd to think he is MHS.

What bothers me the most is that by powerscaling we would rate Paracelsus a caster with C rank Agility as around 4-5 times faster than Achilles the fastest hero of all Eras.
 
Speaking of speed. Amaterasu is listed as Unknown and is listed as being outside the axis of time, isn't that immeasurable?
 
There are many entities that can move in and around the Time Axis, Aoko being one of them with her Magic Blue. I'm not sure whether that coutns as Immeasurable speed or some other hax though.
 
Kaltias is correct. Existing in a timeless void is not quantifiable.
 
MHS looks fine to me with more calcs to back it up.
 
Infinite speed is simple. It means moving anywhere instantly, or while time stands still.

Immeasurable speed means movement beyond linear time, such as running backwards and forwards in time, or possessing additional temporal dimensions.
 
The Everlasting said:
I frankly don't even understand our standards for Infinite/Immeasurable speed anymore.
Click to expand...
Indeed, we've really over complicated it, but we're derailing.
 
Well, everyone is kinda ok with it, but someone should write what exactly would this upgrade look like and how it would affect Servants.
 
Well, a lot of Servants wouldn't have the justifications changed. Some would have stuff added. Gilgamesh and Saber would get "Likely comparable to their Prototype counterparts".
 
So, has everyone agreed on MHS (or MHS+...? given that Enkidu calc and Auto-Defensor stuff) Servants? If so, we can start revisions. I'll handle Tsukihime, Fate/stay night, and Fate/Zero pages, and anything else that I run into on my general rewrites.
 
We should probably discuss the Enkidu MHS+ calc and MHS+ possibilities, first.
 
@Prom

Alright then.

In the NP animation, he goes from ground floor to high enough that sight of the stars is clear and unbroken in about 5 seconds.

Low End: Above the Cloud Layer

The highest, thickest clouds are about 50,000 or more feet (or 15,240 m) above ground level.

15,240 m / 5s = 3048 m/s = Mach 8.957. Not particularly impressive.

Mid End: To Earth's Orbit

Low-Orbit is between 160 km and 2000 km. Let's settle for 1,000 km.

1,000,000 m / 5 s = 200,000 m/s = Mach 587.733991

Mid-Orbit is around 2000 km high.

2,000,000 m / 5 s = 400,000 m/s = Mach 1175.46798 A little high.

High End: To the Exosphere

According to Google, the uppermost edge of the exosphere is 190,000 km high.

190,000,000 m / 5s = 38,000,000 m/s = Mach 111,669.458 Probably not.
 
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