[Fate] Removing resistance to vector manipulation

[Lynieryz]

It's quite simple, the resistance literally comes from a single mention of negative vectors.

A negative vector is a vector which points in the direction opposite to the reference positive direction.

This literally means nothing because:

¹The strength of this vector has never been defined.
²Because the force of the vector is not defined it can vary from a force that cannot move ants to a force that moves stars and etc.
³It may have simply been resisted through lifting strength.

Where does it have to be removed from if approved:

Servant Physiology

Servants are spirits summoned by the Holy Grail to compete under Masters in the Holy Grail War. Typically, they are Heroic Spirits, beings of a higher existence given to them by the people's ideals of them, but can also be Divine Spirits, Phantoms, Wraiths, and even normal humans, in extreme...

vsbattles.fandom.com

BB (Fate/Extra CCC)

BB is an AI created from Sakura Matou's suppressed feelings for Hakuno Kishinami. After having her behavioral constraints removed by Kiara Sessyoin, BB decided to rebel against the system of the Moon Cell in order to save Hakuno from their untimely death, creating the Sakura Labyrinth and the...

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Kingprotea

Alter Ego G, whose True Name is Kingprotea, is an Alter Ego created by BB. Unlike the other Alter Egos, who are composed of multiple goddesses, Kingprotea was constructed from the data of the Earth Mother Goddess alone. Although she is the lowest ranked of the Sakura Five, she possesses the...

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Passionlip

Alter Ego M, whose True Name is Passionlip, is an Alter Ego created by BB. A High-Servant composed of the goddesses Parvati, Durga, and the Valkyrie Brynhildr, she falls in love with the protagonist over the course of the story, but is forced to attack them under orders from her "mother". She...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kazuradrop

Kazuradrop is the Alter-Ego of kindness, and the main antagonist of Fate/Extra CCC: Foxtail. She was created to pacify malignant and flawed code, and turn them into something either harmless or beneficial. Her main goal is to absorb all of her siblings and obtain perfection. Her other goal is to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

[These are the ones I know, maybe there are more]

 

[SweetDao]

Waiting for potential counter-arguments, but for now I agree with the OP.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Seems fine at a glance.

@Deagonx @LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Deagonx]

It's weird that they ever had this. Yeah it should be removed

 

[TheSilverKing14]

Seems good enough. I'm pretty sure all sakura characters have vector manipulation in there profiles so that should be removed IIRC.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah I also agree with this until further evidence either way is given

 

[Lynieryz]

Seems good enough. I'm pretty sure all sakura characters have vector manipulation in there profiles so that should be removed IIRC.

I didn't find it on their profile but I found this crt that was made to add to them but the op ended up forgetting.

Some Fate Additions (Mainly Sakura and apply past crts)

This thread is to apply some past revisions to profiles that were forgotten and add some things to Sakura.

vsbattles.com

 

[KingNanaya]

I'd at least like to see any counter arguments. but for now, I guess I agree

 

[SweetDao]

I'd at least like to see any counter arguments. but for now, I guess I agree

no

 

[KingNanaya]

no

damned if I agree, and damned if I disagree

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

It's quite simple, the resistance literally comes from a single mention of negative vectors.

This literally means nothing because:

¹The strength of this vector has never been defined.
²Because the force of the vector is not defined it can vary from a force that cannot move ants to a force that moves stars and etc.
³It may have simply been resisted through lifting strength.

Where does it have to be removed from if approved:

Servant Physiology

Servants are spirits summoned by the Holy Grail to compete under Masters in the Holy Grail War. Typically, they are Heroic Spirits, beings of a higher existence given to them by the people's ideals of them, but can also be Divine Spirits, Phantoms, Wraiths, and even normal humans, in extreme...

vsbattles.fandom.com

BB (Fate/Extra CCC)

BB is an AI created from Sakura Matou's suppressed feelings for Hakuno Kishinami. After having her behavioral constraints removed by Kiara Sessyoin, BB decided to rebel against the system of the Moon Cell in order to save Hakuno from their untimely death, creating the Sakura Labyrinth and the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kingprotea

Alter Ego G, whose True Name is Kingprotea, is an Alter Ego created by BB. Unlike the other Alter Egos, who are composed of multiple goddesses, Kingprotea was constructed from the data of the Earth Mother Goddess alone. Although she is the lowest ranked of the Sakura Five, she possesses the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Passionlip

Alter Ego M, whose True Name is Passionlip, is an Alter Ego created by BB. A High-Servant composed of the goddesses Parvati, Durga, and the Valkyrie Brynhildr, she falls in love with the protagonist over the course of the story, but is forced to attack them under orders from her "mother". She...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kazuradrop

Kazuradrop is the Alter-Ego of kindness, and the main antagonist of Fate/Extra CCC: Foxtail. She was created to pacify malignant and flawed code, and turn them into something either harmless or beneficial. Her main goal is to absorb all of her siblings and obtain perfection. Her other goal is to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

[These are the ones I know, maybe there are more]

... From those linked profiles the only character that have listed resistance to vector manipulation is BB, and said I don't think it actually come from INS but instead from the general resistances of Authorities, the other characters have listed vector manipulation as an ability., although at least is indeed listed as a resistance in the servant physiology page (also, why you linked the justification of self-sustain?).

I didn't find it on their profile but I found this crt that was made to add to them but the op ended up forgetting.

Some Fate Additions (Mainly Sakura and apply past crts)

This thread is to apply some past revisions to profiles that were forgotten and add some things to Sakura.

vsbattles.com

Since you linked this crt you could had, you know, read it, because if you did it then you would had saw the part where is explicitly linked the crt where the haxs related to INS where accepted:

So as such I propose to give her the hax that come with it (which were accepted here

And if you clicked there you would see in the original crt that the thing was added under the following reasoning:

• Vector Manipulation : Void Space is a world existing on a negative vector. Can change direction and distance

So, based in how the thing is said to exist on a negative vector, along with the fact that the concept of direction and distance aren't defined, you know, the two things that wikipedia define as an vector:

vector is a geometric object that has magnitude (or length) and direction

The magnitude of the vector is the distance between the two points, and the direction refers to the direction of displacement from A to B.

So from that reasoning I think that listing a resistance to vector manipulation makes senses, at least I see it as a more logical than just assume they just overcome such a thing with LS (otherwise the Paper Moon wouldn't have any meaning and wouldn't be so necessary for Chaldea vehicles to move inside INS), my personal opinion at least.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't agree that the phrase "negative vector" being used as a description for INS equates to Vector Manip resistance, because that isn't really the reason why navigating the INS is so challenging.

Though for the most part FGO writers are lazy and just treat INS like a bog standard realm so it's especially hard to justify that interpretation IMO.

 

[KingNanaya]

I don't agree that the phrase "negative vector" being used as a description for INS equates to Vector Manip resistance, because that isn't really the reason why navigating the INS is so challenging.

yeah, I agree, but the paper moon scan does say that time, direction, and distance are unquantifiable/change directions. resisting that should still qualify.

 

[Lynieryz]

... From those linked profiles the only character that have listed resistance to vector manipulation is BB, and said I don't think it actually come from INS but instead from the general resistances of Authorities, the other characters have listed vector manipulation as an ability., although at least is indeed listed as a resistance in the servant physiology page (also, why you linked the justification of self-sustain?).

Since you linked this crt you could had, you know, read it, because if you did it then you would had saw the part where is explicitly linked the crt where the haxs related to INS where accepted:

And if you clicked there you would see in the original crt that the thing was added under the following reasoning:

So, based in how the thing is said to exist on a negative vector, along with the fact that the concept of direction and distance aren't defined, you know, the two things that wikipedia define as an vector:


So from that reasoning I think that listing a resistance to vector manipulation makes senses, at least I see it as a more logical than just assume they just overcome such a thing with LS (otherwise the Paper Moon wouldn't have any meaning and wouldn't be so necessary for Chaldea vehicles to move inside INS), my personal opinion at least.

I'm genuinely confused if something else is needed to move in this place because of the vectors so where are you getting the resistance from? This proves the opposite that they do not resist vector manipulation and need something specifically created to deal with vectors.

And none of what you said deals with what disqualifies vector manipulation in the first place.

¹The strength of this vector has never been defined.
²Because the force of the vector is not defined it can vary from a force that cannot move ants to a force that moves stars and etc.
³It may have simply been resisted through lifting strength.

And the method which the papermoon moves is by mapping the coordinates of normal space before entering the INS, yet another justification for not being resistant to manipulating vectors just knowing how to move coordinately parallel to the point where you enter the INS already works.

 

[KingNanaya]

I agree with removing vector manipulation from the servant phys page, since it's made very clear that you need either paper moon, or to just be built different. speaking of which, Gil is built different.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I'm genuinely confused if something else is needed to move in this place because of the vectors so where are you getting the resistance from? This proves the opposite that they do not resist vector manipulation and need something specifically created to deal with vectors.

And none of what you said deals with what disqualifies vector manipulation in the first place.

The Paper Moon is needed for the vechicle of Chaldea (which transport humans) to navigate through INS, the resistance would be from servants moving through INS without the Paper Moon despite that.

Direction and distance, the two things that make vectors, aren't defined in INS, hence why moving inside despite that would mean a resistance to vector manipulation.

I agree with removing vector manipulation from the servant phys page, since it's made very clear that you need either paper moon, or to just be built different. speaking of which, Gil is built different.

Eh, Gil is indeed built different but from what I know other servants have moved inside there, like the ones CCC, or the ones in FGO, so I think is fine to add it to the servant physiology.

 

[Lynieryz]

The Paper Moon is needed for the vechicle of Chaldea (which transport humans) to navigate through INS, the resistance would be from servants moving through INS without the Paper Moon despite that.

Direction and distance, the two things that make vectors, aren't defined in INS, hence why moving inside despite that would mean a resistance to vector manipulation.

You didn't answer this:

And none of what you said deals with what disqualifies vector manipulation in the first place.

¹The strength of this vector has never been defined.
²Because the force of the vector is not defined it can vary from a force that cannot move ants to a force that moves stars and etc.
³It may have simply been resisted through lifting strength.

And the method which the papermoon moves is by mapping the coordinates of normal space before entering the INS, yet another justification for not being resistant to manipulating vectors just knowing how to move coordinately parallel to the point where you enter the INS already works.

 

[Deagonx]

Direction and distance, the two things that make vectors, aren't defined in INS, hence why moving inside despite that would mean a resistance to vector manipulation.

I don't understand the logic here, and the scan seems to contradict you:

"Only the Paper Moon can ascertain direction, distance, and time in the Imaginary Number Space."

So they exist, but only the Paper Moon can ascertain them.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

You didn't answer this:

1. How can you want the strength of a vector to be defined when the things that make a vector don't work inside INS.
2. Why is that relevant to the fact that direction and distance, the two things that make a vector a vector, aren't defined there?
3. How been able to flex X amount of kg is related at all to a place not having direction and distance defined as a concept?
4. Why is that relevant to the discussion? Specially when the thing is described as using the concept of a map from a higher dimension?

I don't understand the logic here, and the scan seems to contradict you:

"Only the Paper Moon can ascertain direction, distance, and time in the Imaginary Number Space."

So they exist, but only the Paper Moon can ascertain them.

"direction, distance, time" change randomly (or rather, they cannot be defined).

So I don't see how the logic that vectors aren't defined inside INS gets contradicted by the magical artifact said to use the concept of a higher dimension map.

 

[Lynieryz]

1. How can you want the strength of a vector to be defined when the things that make a vector don't work inside INS.
2. Why is that relevant to the fact that direction and distance, the two things that make a vector a vector, aren't defined there?
3. How been able to flex X amount of kg is related at all to a place not having direction and distance defined as a concept?
4. Why is that relevant to the discussion? Specially when the thing is described as using the concept of a map from a higher dimension?

Cool, then you agree with the op and with op's entire proposal: Vector manipulation is completely unquantifiable, which is why there is no way to have resistance because it is unquantifiable.

And for those who are able to manipulate the INS they can continue to have vector manipulation but a note should be added to the profiles explaining that the vector manipulation is not applicable to combat because it is unquantifiable.

 

[Violetcyanide]

Cool, then you agree with the op and with op's entire proposal: Vector manipulation is completely unquantifiable, which is why there is no way to have resistance because it is unquantifiable.

It doesn't matter whether it is quantifiable or not,all that matter is that it exists and that it gets resisted.whether its 1N or 10N is irrelevant.

It doesnt matter what the magnitude of the hax is,all that matters is the the dimensionality and layers.

I don't understand the logic here, and the scan seems to contradict you:

"Only the Paper Moon can ascertain direction, distance, and time in the Imaginary Number Space."

So they exist, but only the Paper Moon can ascertain them.

The imaginary number space is a gateway to multiple dimensions,however only by leaving at the correct location can one reach the needed destination.

However since the area itself has nothing of time,distance or direction.they needed to have something which allowed them to pinpoint where to leave and enter.hence the whole "direction,distance and time" for leaving.

Just because a area doesn't have time doesn't mean an individual who lives there can't count the seconds thats passed for him.can he?

 

[Lynieryz]

It doesn't matter whether it is quantifiable or not,all that matter is that it exists and that it gets resisted.whether its 1N or 10N is irrelevant.

It doesnt matter what the magnitude of the hax is,all that matters is the the dimensionality and layers.

Yes, it matters even more when it may have been resisted with LS[You yourself recognize that it is unquantifiable, so having been resisted through LS is completely plausible as the force may be smaller than the LS of the servants] or with the servant knowing how to move parallel to normal space[the method that the paper moon uses to move], the resistance is already null as it is not quantifiable and it may not even have been a resistance, so yes it shouldn't be a resistance.

And about those who are able to manipulate the INS:

And for those who are able to manipulate the INS they can continue to have vector manipulation but a note should be added to the profiles explaining that the vector manipulation is not applicable to combat because it is unquantifiable.

 

[Violetcyanide]

Yes, it matters even more when it may have been resisted with LS[You yourself recognize that it is unquantifiable, so having been resisted through LS is completely plausible as the force may be smaller than the LS of the servants]

How is it possible when the vectors aren't even defined here.which would lead to lifting forces being wacky.

For that matter,even magi can survive there,as shown by the survivors of chaldea and Trisha fellows head.

Unless you are telling me a severed head has class m LS.your assumption is wrong.

or with the servant knowing how to move parallel to normal space[the method that the paper moon uses to move], the resistance is already null as it is not quantifiable and it may not even have been a resistance, so yes it shouldn't be a resistance.

I feel like you didn't really understand what the concept here.

Even if the servant only knows how to move by being parallel to normal space,they would still get the resistance for moving in a space without defined vectors.

You are arguing for the wrong thing here.

 

[Lynieryz]

How is it possible when the vectors aren't even defined here.which would lead to lifting forces being wacky.

For that matter,even magi can survive there,as shown by the survivors of chaldea and Trisha fellows head.

Unless you are telling me a severed head has class m LS.your assumption is wrong.


I feel like you didn't really understand what the concept here.

Even if the servant only knows how to move by being parallel to normal space,they would still get the resistance for moving in a space without defined vectors.

You are arguing for the wrong thing here.

Moving in a place without vectors doesn't give you resistance? This doesn't make any sense, how will there be resistance if vectors don't even exist in the place? The wiki abandoned this thought a long time ago with the whole subject about void giving you things through the absence of things; Immeasurable, resistance to manipulation of space, time, EE and etc.

 

[Violetcyanide]

Moving in a place without vectors doesn't give you resistance? This doesn't make any sense, how will there be resistance if vectors don't even exist in the place?

Its a resistance because there is no vectors.

The wiki abandoned this thought a long time ago with the whole subject about void giving you things through the absence of things; Immeasurable, resistance to manipulation of space, time, EE and etc.

False equivalence

Also that was done,beacause a individual who lives in a area with no time might or might not be affected to time manipulation.

Meanwhile what you are arguing for is saying living in a place with no air wouldn't give you self sustenance type 1,when living is such a place is what gives you such a hax.

 

[Lynieryz]

Its a resistance because there is no vectors.

False equivalence

Also that was done,beacause a individual who lives in a area with no time might or might not be affected to time manipulation.

Meanwhile what you are arguing for is saying living in a place with no air wouldn't give you self sustenance type 1,when living is such a place is what gives you such a hax.

Seriously dude, did you even read what you wrote? Being in a place without air doesn't give you resistance to having your air manipulated< this would be the equivalent of vector manipulation and self-sustenance is literally false equivalence, how can you be so contradictory? In all your comments I didn't need to think of any argument because you yourself always say something that destroys everything that you are arguing in favor.

If your arguments continue to be based on things not accepted on the wiki, I won't respond as it would be a literal waste of time.

 

[KingNanaya]

Being in a place without air doesn't give you resistance to having your air manipulated.

that's not what he said. at all.

this would be the equivalent of vector manipulation and self-sustenance is literally false equivalence, how can you be so contradictory?

what?

In all your comments I didn't need to think of any argument

it's likely due to you misunderstanding what he's saying.

 

[Lynieryz]

that's not what he said. at all.

what?

it's likely due to you misunderstanding what he's saying.

I didn't say he said that, I explained what the equivalent would be in relation to air and vectors, those who are really equivalent still wouldn't give the resistance he wants and that what he used as an argument[Self-Sustenance] is false equivalence.

 

[Lynieryz]

...

...

It's been 48hrs, do you two still agree? If so, this is what the profiles which has vector manipulation as an ability will look like:

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, Vector Manipulation[note 1]

Note: Vector manipulation is unquantifiable because the only details mentioned about it are negative vectors, the change of direction and distance.

1. ↑ Non-combat applicable, negative vectors, the change of direction and distance.

Lynieryz/Sandbox1

vsbattles.fandom.com

The servant physiology page will look like this:

• Void Manipulation and Physics Manipulation: Servants can survive within the Imaginary Number Space, which is described as a Void Space, capable of erasing time, space, existence, data and information. The Imaginary Number Space and Real Space have different physical laws, an unobservable territory, which is not even detectable by the currently existing laws of physics. Servant's Noble Phantasm is free from the laws of physics.

and currently it looks like this:

• Void Manipulation, Vector Manipulation and Physics Manipulation: Servants can survive within the Imaginary Number Space, which is described as a Void Space, capable of erasing time, space, existence, data and information, and a place which exists on the negative vector. The Imaginary Number Space and Real Space have different physical laws, an unobservable territory, which is not even detectable by the currently existing laws of physics. Servant's Noble Phantasm is free from the laws of physics.

Is everything ok?

All pages[in the op there is a list of the pages that will be changed] that need to be changed are protected.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes.

 

[KingNanaya]

usually nasuverse crts require 3 votes because of how controversial the verse is. is that not also true here?

 

[Deagonx]

I don't see how. Aside from the high tier stuff, which even then isn't really that controversial. The main controversy was just Marshadow being problematic.

 

[Lynieryz]

usually nasuverse crts require 3 votes because of how controversial the verse is. is that not also true here?

Sure.

Yes.

Sorry for the inconvenience, but can you retag Maverick to see if her position remains the same and call more mods to evaluate this CRT?

I don't know if it's necessary or not but it doesn't hurt to have more opinions on the CRT.

 

[KingNanaya]

Aside from the high tier stuff, which even then isn't really that controversial. The main controversy was just Marshadow being problematic.

I've often seen Lephyr commenting on nasuverse crts that they require 3 votes to pass. I just wanted to ask here to be sure, since it's something I've seen very consistently

 

[Deagonx]

This is a relatively minor ability revision, so I don't know that it's necessary here, personally.

 

[KingNanaya]

it does affect a massive amount of profiles though, so I'm not sure if minor is the right term to use.

 

[Violetcyanide]

Seriously dude, did you even read what you wrote? Being in a place without air doesn't give you resistance to having your air manipulated

I feel like you just made a random conclusion and then are jumping to it.

I am talking about air manipulation as in manipulating what's in the air,like oxygen manipulation.so why would a guy who doesn't breath be affected by air manipulation.

Similarly,why would a guy who can keep his vector unchanging in a place where vector are constantly changing or incapable defined be affected by a another random vector.

how can you be so contradictory? In all your comments I didn't need to think of any argument because you yourself always say something that destroys everything that you are arguing in favor.

I feel like you are just misunderstanding stuff.

Also for that matter what is your argument?

If your argument is its unquantifiable and hence it should removed,that doesn't matter.

 

[Violetcyanide]

I feel like you should address what is the problem again cause I am genuinely confused.

It's quite simple, the resistance literally comes from a single mention of negative vectors.

This literally means nothing because:

¹The strength of this vector has never been defined.
²Because the force of the vector is not defined it can vary from a force that cannot move ants to a force that moves stars and etc.
³It may have simply been resisted through lifting strength.

So in the op you mentioned the problem is the vectors are unquantifiable.which isn't a problem,since magnitude of a vector is irrelevant.

Moving in a place without vectors doesn't give you resistance? This doesn't make any sense, how will there be resistance if vectors don't even exist in the place? The wiki abandoned this thought a long time ago with the whole subject about void giving you things through the absence of things; Immeasurable, resistance to manipulation of space, time, EE and etc.

Then it switches to moving in a vectorless area.(also where did this come from?)

Note: Vector manipulation is unquantifiable because the only details mentioned about it are negative vectors, the change of direction and distance.


↑ Non-combat applicable, negative vectors, the change of direction and distance.

Then it switches to unquantifiable.

What exactly is your argument here.either that vectors don't exist here or they are unquantifiable?

 

[Lynieryz]

I feel like you should address what is the problem again cause I am genuinely confused.

So in the op you mentioned the problem is the vectors are unquantifiable.which isn't a problem,since magnitude of a vector is irrelevant.

Then it switches to moving in a vectorless area.(also where did this come from?)


Then it switches to unquantifiable.

What exactly is your argument here.either that vectors don't exist here or they are unquantifiable?

I never argued that they don't exist, it was you who did this, I responded with a "What If" to demonstrate that even if that were the case it would still be unquantifiable in the same way.

And the entire proposal of the CRT is that the vector manipulation is unquantifiable, consequently resistance to vector manipulation cannot exist because unquantifiability goes against the very definition of resistance.

The ability to manipulate vectors will remain in the profile but with a note saying that it is unquantifiable and therefore not applicable to combat and the resistance will be removed because the manipulation is unquantifiable.

 

[Violetcyanide]

I never argued that they don't exist, it was you who did this, I responded with a "What If" to demonstrate that even if that were the case it would still be unquantifiable in the same way.

I never implied they don't exist.what I meant to say was that they aren't defined properly or being wacky.if i came across as that,my bad.i apologise.

And the entire proposal of the CRT is that the vector manipulation is unquantifiable, consequently resistance to vector manipulation cannot exist because unquantifiability goes against the very definition of resistance.

So the argument is its unquantifiable.in that case,then it doesn't matter.

You see vector hax (or for that matter any hax) is only defined by layers or dimensionality.

Its magnitude is irrelevant to how strong the hax itself is.

For Example:let's say A has a 5d resistance to vector hax because he resisted B's vector 5d hax which can pushes someone by 10N.

Let's say C resists a 5d vector hax which pushes someone by 10000N.

Then A and C would both have the same resistance.would resist any single layered 5d vector hax,irrelevant of the hax magnitude.

It doesn't matter whether the 5d hax can only launch at 1N or 10000N or even infinite N.the resistance cancels it out.

In other words,the magnitude of the vector doesn't matter.only dimensionality or layers.