Fate Massive Revision

[RegisNex1232]

Kama/Mara is referring to all of humanity when she says "Universe".

Relevant note by fallacies, a FGO translator

Whereas she states that she has become identified to the Universe itself, she subsequently pronounces Universe as Õà¿õ║║Úí× (zenjinrui, "all of humanity").

So once again failing reading comprehension as usual.

 

[LotusKLM]

Can we be more civil?

We can when he stops being dishonest

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The universe is noted as being infinite by Mara and Mara is said to have merged with the concept of the universe.

Stop being such a dishonest downplayer, Regis.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Regi @Lotus Both of you need to start being more respectful

 

[LotusKLM]

You can not be respectful to someone who is dishonest.

 

[LotusKLM]

I would think that even if we accepted reality marbles as being legit pocket star sized dimensions the only one who would scale to them would be Gil using Ea at maximum, the casters (shirou, rider) would never scale to them because IIRC in the VN it is stated that shirou's projections (and by extension his RM) violates something akin the principle of equivalent exchange in-universe, so whatever mana he purposes into materializing his world doesn't even have to be anywhere close to what it would take to actually create it (which by our standards would be tier 4 levels of energy), not to mention how restrictive they are in general.

Not to mention that the pocket reality of shirou was applied to all, I just wanted to show that another NP besides amakusa has at least level 4-C

 

[RegisNex1232]

To further clarify the term 'universe' in Nasuverse being used is not the same as the literal meaning of the world.

Using the word 'universe' in nasuverse and claiming that it refers to an actual physical universe without context is really just misleading. The assumption hinges on taking Nasu's metaphorical universe as something physical and actual when in reality, the 'universal' servants in actuality got her ass kicked by regular servants in FGO. And those servants are nowhere near universal.

The word 'universe' has always been metaphorical in nature within the scope of Nasuverse. 'Universe' of awareness which governed by the Human Order is really just the solar system. And the parallel/adjacent realities it refers to is the possible configuration/arrangements of solar system with a bias about human history; there's also hard limit to a number of parallel realities otherwise it would lead to the problem of the solar system ceasing to exist.

We're using Kama since she's really the one being hyped here as 'universal'. People are just taking her descriptors and applying them random Nasucharacters without any context to back it up.

Here it's stated that Kama's actual authority focuses on worldly desire and the corrupts it. Kama's also everywhere in the 'universe' within/or her (body) on this context which sounds like an soup'd up reality marble if you ask me.

ÒüØÒéîÒü»Õ«çÕ«ÖÒü½õ¢ÅÒü¥Òüåõ©Çõ║║õ©Çõ║║Òü«µ¼▓(þவé®)Òü½ÒÇüþó║Õ«ƒÒü½Õ»äÒéèµÀ╗ÒüäÒÇüþöÿÒéäÒüïÒüùÒÇüÕáòÞÉ¢ÒüòÒüøÒéïÒüƒÒéüÒü«µ¿®Þâ¢ÒÇéÞç¬Õ£¿Òü½Òé½Òé╣Òé┐Òâ×ÒéñÒé║ÕÅ»Þâ¢Òü¬ÒÇîÕà¿Õ»¥Õ┐£Õ×ïÞç¬ÕêåÒÇìÒüîµÿƒÕ▒æÒü«ÕªéÒüÅþäíµò░Òü½Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÕ«ÜþÉåÒÇé Õì│ÒüíÒÇüþìúÒüƒÒéïÒé½Òâ╝Òâ×/Òâ×Òâ╝Òâ®Òü»Õ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü¿ÒüäÒüåÕ«çÕ«ÖÒü½ ÒüèÒüäÒüªþäíÚÖÉÒü½Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÒÇé

There's some lines with Kama talking shit to Kiara about being a defeated beast and how Kama wants to fill the 'universe with her love.'

Following that here we clearly see what the word 'universe' means in context. It refers to mankind of nasuverse, and her goal of filling the 'universe' with love is filling humans with 'love', it has nothing to do and doesn't correspond to the actual physical universe. The kicker is that people are trying to pass it off as a literal universe when in fact from the written word of the writer himself took the time and effort to actually put it in parenthesis to make it clearer for the readers.

õ╗ûÞÇàÒü«µäøÒü¿Õ»äÒéèµÀ╗Òüåõ║ïÒéÆÕ«ÜÒéüÒéëÒéîÒÇüõ╗ûÞÇàÒü«µäøÒü«ÕÀ╗ÒüìµÀ╗ÒüêÒüºµÂêµ╗àÒüùÒÇüþÁɵףÒü¿ÒüùÒüªþäíÚÖÉÒéƵëïÒü½ÕàÑÒéîÒüªÒüùÒü¥ÒüúÒüƒµäøÒü«þÑ×Òü»ÒÇüÕ¢ôþäÂÒü«ÒéêÒüåÒü½ÒÇüµäøÒü½ÕǪÒéôÒüáÒÇé

µòàÒü½Õ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü»Þç¬ÒéëÒü«þäíÚÖÉÒü«µäøÒüºÕà¿ÒüªÒéƵ║ÇÒüƒÒüØÒüåÒü¿ÒüÖÒéïÒÇé

Õ«çÕ«Ö(õ║║Úí×)ÒüîÞç¬ÒéëÒü«µäøÒüºµ║ÇÒüƒÒüòÒéîÒéîÒü░ÒÇüÒüØÒüôÒü½Òü»õ©ìÕ┐½Òüºþà®ÒéÅÒüùÒüäõ╗ûõ║║Òü«µäøÒü¬Òü®Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüùÒü¬ÒüäÒü«ÒüáÒüïÒéëÒÇé

The hype of 'universal' character for nasuverse is really just a nothing burger because it never actualized in game; just somebody trying to spin a single word to mean something completely different when you take things out of context. Otherwise a number of people in this thread want to see an actual evidence of universal feats for Nasuverse instead of relying on in-game-hyperbole and fan conjectures that did not happen in game.

And this is the part where it the 'universal' claims falls apart. Yagyuu Munenori was cutting Kama and her clones faster than she could summon them and funny part is that the fight isn't universal in scope. First the area they were fighting looked like they were in 'space' but the more she kept losing, reality started reverting back to normal until it the place became just a room. Kama was literally pushed to a corner by a a servant tier samurais and was forced dodge their sword strikes and ultimately forcing her to eject the Tokugawa and Ooku from herself, causing her to lose her authority and leading to her downfall.Afterwards Kasuga uses her authority to expels her from Ooku (magical room/labyrinth) and Pravati taking a last NP potshot at her.

So much for a 'universal' character. Though I do give people the benefit of the doubt to post actual 'universal' feats for her though.

From a translator

Maybe Matthew could start looking at translations rather than relying on faulty sources.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

@Matt Kama has no universe level feats and her statements are either vague as hell or you have to interprete them wrong and ignore on-screen feats to get universe level from them, so in her case it's pretty easy.

Although i will apologize for my first comment, because i had no intention (and still don't have) of participating in a debate coming into this thread, i was only going to laugh at the OP and leave, your take was just too hot to ignore.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

TL;dr.

Looking at the context in the actual scenes it doesn't suggest any of that. Why should I care about what some guy in a forum says when I'm relying on the actual game.

 

[LotusKLM]

I would think that even if we accepted reality marbles as being legit pocket star sized dimensions the only one who would scale to them would be Gil using Ea at maximum, the casters (shirou, rider) would never scale to them because IIRC in the VN it is stated that shirou's projections (and by extension his RM) violates something akin the principle of equivalent exchange in-universe, so whatever mana he purposes into materializing his world doesn't even have to be anywhere close to what it would take to actually create it (which by our standards would be tier 4 levels of energy), not to mention how restrictive they are in general.

The Np in the amakusa applies to all, since they endured the power generated there. If Emiya NP is accepted with High 3-A, EA and Akhilleus kosmos would be the only ones to receive this upgrade. And the akhilleus has even more ground, since it personifies the Greek universe

 

[Andytrenom]

@Lotus If you can't even make the slightest attempt to keep your composure when arguing with someone you don't like, then frankly you shouldn't even be debating here. Maturity is expected here, not excuses and I would like you to keep this in mind.

Regis behaviour isn't the best either I'll admit, but that doesn't let you off the hook

 

[RegisNex1232]

TL;dr.

Looking at the context in the actual scenes it doesn't suggest any of that. Why should I care about what some guy in a forum says when I'm relying on the actual game.

Because you clearly haven't, unlike the various people who have translated this scene? You have yet to display any knowledge of JP that might make people think about considering your opinion, nor have you shown yourself well acquainted with Nasu's varied terminology and its usage.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matt Kama has no universe level feats and her statements are either vague as hell or you have to interprete them wrong and ignore on-screen feats to get universe level from them, so in her case it's pretty easy.
Although i will apologize for my first comment, because i had no intention (and still don't have) of participating in a debate coming into this thread, i was only going to laugh at the OP and leave, your take was just too hot to ignore.

I saw her feats and statements and didn't see it as vague.

And why must you be so confrontational straight out of the blue?

 

[LotusKLM]

To further clarify the term 'universe' in Nasuverse being used is not the same as the literal meaning of the world......Maybe Matthew could start looking at translations rather than relying on faulty sources.

Again being dishonest in the first case, it does not refer only to the solar system, you drew that conclusion based on nothing.

In the second case of kiara, it makes sense to refer to humanity, for love is an intimate sense, existing only in humanity, and yet does not disqualify other affirmations. It does not make sense for you to get the meaning in one scene and want to apply for others.

 

[GLHF22]

Do not quote wall text

 

[LotusKLM]

@Lotus If you can't even make the slightest attempt to keep your composure when arguing with someone you don't like, then frankly you shouldn't even be debating here. Maturity is expected here, not excuses and I would like you to keep this in mind.
Regis behaviour isn't the best either I'll admit, but that doesn't let you off the hook

okay, sorry.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Your posts are hardly credible when the actual author of the sidestory clarifies it in the actual text as not the physical universe and the events that play out later don't support such a conclusion either. Hence, one can only conclude that you don't understand what you're reading and are just making assumptions that is contradicted by the game.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Sorry, Lotus, but calling ne dishonest for providing explanations while you are wildly extrapolating feats without context is very ironic.

 

[LotusKLM]

The only problem here is its misinterpretation, and lack of logical ability to understand that the meaning of a word varies from context to context. You can not prove that in the case of akhilleus kosmos it refers to "all humanity" without having to appeal to change the meaning of the word universe because of an earlier context that has nothing to do with the current one.

 

[LotusKLM]

sorry too, but it is not without context, you are only denying the deeds based on an earlier context that has no connection with the now, except that they are from the same work.

 

[LotusKLM]

And you have not yet refuted high 4-C servants, and if no one is against, when we will apply the profiles, and the speed as well.

 

[RegisNex1232]

The only problem here is its misinterpretation, and lack of logical ability to understand that the meaning of a word varies from context to context. You can not prove that in the case of akhilleus kosmos it refers to "all humanity" without having to appeal to change the meaning of the word universe because of an earlier context that has nothing to do with the current one.

It's referring to the Greek World as it always has since Apocrypha materials.

https://fateapocryphathetranslation.wordpress.com/side-materials/fateapocrypha-material/glossary-a/

Achilles Cosmos [Noble Phantasm]

The Miniature World Enclosed by the Azure Sky. Achilles' trump card which protects the wielder by deploying a miniature world. A divine armament created by the hands of the blacksmith god Hephaestus. It can event against nearly any attack, whether it be from an Anti-Unit, Anti-Army, Anti-Fortress or even Anti-Country Noble Phantasm. However, due to this Noble Phantasm's nature, it is weak against Anti-World Noble Phantasms alone.

A description of this shield appears in a hundred lines of text in Book 18 of the "Illiad". Hephaestus reproduced the world he lived in itself in miniature form in this shield.

In the light novel, Achilles doesn't use it himself, gave it over to Astolfo for him to use. Naturally, transferring Noble Phantasms would normally never happen in a regular Holy Grail War. Even in the Great Holy Grail War, it would normally be unthinkable.

In the first place, most Noble Phantasms are tied to the legends of heroes. Even if you were to borrow Gae Bolg from the blue spearman, that doesn't mean you would be able to activate Gae Bolg.

However, there are exceptions. In this case, in addition to the necessary conditions of "being where he is making a contract, instead of being in opposition, of his own volition" and the Noble Phantasm "not requiring considerable skill and power to invoke its true name", it is believed that the transfer of the Noble Phantasm went smoothly because there is "an episode in the legend of the giver (Achilles) where he loans his Noble Phantasms" and "an episode in the legend of the receiver (Astolfo) where he borrows a Noble Phantasm".

In addition, when Achilles alone wields it, this shield can be used to "attack" as well. After deploying the Noble Phantasm, he would aim to crush the enemy with that miniature world by continuously pushing forward. Most likely, Hephaestus never thought of such a method of using it.

 

[RegisNex1232]

And you have not yet refuted high 4-C servants, and if no one is against, when we will apply the profiles, and the speed as well.

The franchise itself refutes such an assumption, from all the way back in FSN when people who can't bust planets in any way can hurt Servants in specific encounters.

Sorry but you are quite literally wanking here.

 

[LotusKLM]

The only problem here is its misinterpretation, and lack of logical ability to understand that the meaning of a word varies from context to context. You can not prove that in the case of akhilleus kosmos it refers to "all humanity" without having to appeal to change the meaning of the word universe because of an earlier context that has nothing to do with the current one.

It's referring to the Greek World as it always has since Apocrypha materials.
https://fateapocryphathetranslation.wordpress.com/side-materials/fateapocrypha-material/glossary-a/

Achilles Cosmos [Noble Phantasm]

The Miniature World Enclosed by the Azure Sky. Achilles' trump card which protects the wielder by deploying a miniature world. A divine armament created by the hands of the blacksmith god Hephaestus. It can event against nearly any attack, whether it be from an Anti-Unit, Anti-Army, Anti-Fortress or even Anti-Country Noble Phantasm. However, due to this Noble Phantasm's nature, it is weak against Anti-World Noble Phantasms alone.

A description of this shield appears in a hundred lines of text in Book 18 of the "Illiad". Hephaestus reproduced the world he lived in itself in miniature form in this shield.

In the light novel, Achilles doesn't use it himself, gave it over to Astolfo for him to use. Naturally, transferring Noble Phantasms would normally never happen in a regular Holy Grail War. Even in the Great Holy Grail War, it would normally be unthinkable.

In the first place, most Noble Phantasms are tied to the legends of heroes. Even if you were to borrow Gae Bolg from the blue spearman, that doesn't mean you would be able to activate Gae Bolg.

However, there are exceptions. In this case, in addition to the necessary conditions of "being where he is making a contract, instead of being in opposition, of his own volition" and the Noble Phantasm "not requiring considerable skill and power to invoke its true name", it is believed that the transfer of the Noble Phantasm went smoothly because there is "an episode in the legend of the giver (Achilles) where he loans his Noble Phantasms" and "an episode in the legend of the receiver (Astolfo) where he borrows a Noble Phantasm".

In addition, when Achilles alone wields it, this shield can be used to "attack" as well. After deploying the Noble Phantasm, he would aim to crush the enemy with that miniature world by continuously pushing forward. Most likely, Hephaestus never thought of such a method of using it.

world = universe And the Greek universe is infinite

http://prntscr.com/nz534z

Aside from that I never really refer to the effect of achilles NP, here it says that it can hold the universe, does not say it embodies the universe, or anything you try to disprove with the description of NP.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Kuso Thread.

Both Lotus and Regis being shitty.

Won't go anywhere.

 

[LotusKLM]

And you have not yet refuted high 4-C servants, and if no one is against, when we will apply the profiles, and the speed as well.

The franchise itself refutes such an assumption, from all the way back in FSN when people who can't bust planets in any way can hurt Servants in specific encounters.
Sorry but you are quite literally wanking here.

They can not destroy the planet because of the counter force. Example, EA is said to be anti-world, but can not destroy the world because of the counter force. That is, this argument is meaningless.

More about counter force