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Seems good if everyone agree. I'm personnally ok with both anyway (I suggested both after all)
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Eternals: Arishem Scene
- Thread starter ArkhamDC06
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- #42
What about the 4-B rating proposed by GoldenVoid?
Also, currently waiting for Ant and Qawsedf's answer
Also, currently waiting for Ant and Qawsedf's answer
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I agree there too since celestials make all those as well, there just wouldn't be any reason to not scale to making them
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- #44
Normal Celestials would then get "At least 4-B" since they're shown casually creating them then. The justification could go "Celestials can casually create stars, including blue giants, and suns thanks to their control over cosmic energy"
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That really seems unnecessary. Just 3-A is fine. He doesn't really have any basis for an At least.
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- #46
Well, the BB created the Stones and it was a consequence of Arishem, it was the Big Bang that crystallized them in their physical form, that's the basis for the "At least/possibly higher" but I can agree with that
For now, we're waiting for an admin to see this
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@Colonel_Krukov @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Sir_Ovens @GyroNutz @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack @The_Impress
Would you be fine with a Low 2-C or "At least Low 2-C" tier for Arishem?
Would you be fine with a Low 2-C or "At least Low 2-C" tier for Arishem?
PrinceofPein
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You made a mistake it is “3A”
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No it's low 2-C for the infinity stone proposal since those were made from the big bang if they accept that then it's fine the 3-A is the lower end that Arkham has expressed he's fine getting as well
PrinceofPein
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The thread is for the Big Bang feat, which is 3A I think the low2c is for another thread
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Both proposals are for the same thing since the Big Bang is what created the Infinity Stones in the MCU and like Dale said, I'm fine with both
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Colonel_Krukov
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I think Low 2-C should be an acceptable rating.
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He did not say that
This is confirmed in MCU guidebooks.
So no, there was space/time before the Big Bang so this cannot be a Tier 2 feat. The Stones were also not just created from the event, but were deliberately forged, likely by the Celestials, into their physical forms.
I don't like this reasoning honestly. I'm only really in support of a possibly rating especially since the Celestials had to hand create everything and even creating space may be related to the stones more so than the Celestials, especially when removing one from a universe causes branching timelines. Absolutely none of them scale to the Infinity Stones.
In fact I find 3-A questionable at the moment, since we don't even know if the Big Bang was as strong as our Big Bang, as the Celestials have to hand create everything.
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He said the BB caused the remnants of the singularities to be turned into crystals so the Stones were created by it, as a side-effect, wich is why I mentionned it in the thread
The interview makes it clear the Big Bang itself was caused by Arishem himself, hence why the thread is about him and hime alone, because the interview is about how he caused the BB, all starts from his hand. The other Celestials are simply shown creating stars and suns (someone suggested they could be 4-B while I planned to make them "At least 4-C") and none of the others scale to the BB creation feat. And again, I'm fine with both 3-A and Low 2-C
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I gave the exact line of dialogue and the guidebook passage. They were not turned into crystals as a side effect from the Big Bang, they were forged (as in made) into their shapes after the Big Bang happened.
Its neither. The Big Bang is 3-A because it released/created matter for the universe. Celestial are the ones that are required create stars, so they would need to create the matter. The context behind the scene robs it of a Tier 3 or 2 rating in my view. Or at least a solid 3-A rating.
In fact the Eternals intro works against you here, because it states he only made the first sun, not the entire universe.
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The guidebook says "When the universe exploded into existence", not after, it's a clear statement the Stones were made as a side-effect if the BB and they were hurled across existence after they were created
Wdym by "the context of the scene"? Even if it not Low 2-C (wich again I'm fine with), the interview, wich is entirely about bringing the Big Bang itself to life (so to speak) in the movie, very clearly states he directly caused the Big Bang, the quoted part above even precisely describes the scene shown in the movie stating that ball of energy in his hand is the moment the BB was caused and establishes that even it's not perfectly smooth, there is a fabric of space and matter and we're shown multiple celestials bodies being created as a result of the explosion so there's clearly matter. It's a solid 3-A feat for him (and him only). The First Sun thing is simply a metaphor to state he brought existence in the void of darkness that was there before
Also, the scene explains Celestials use the energy they gather during their growth to create stars so they can create matter by themselves.
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It does not
Which follows with the Collector's statement
As with the Collector, the Big Bang happened and later on the remnants of whatever the singularities are, were forged into the Stones. They did not happen directly because of the Big Bang.
Exactly. The Big Bang in the MCU did not instantly create the universe or produce all of its matter. Instead the Celestials must covert energy into matter.
Because of that I'm not seeing it as a 3-A feat. Its just vaguely into Tier 4 or low 3 in my view.
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Interesting. There are really two types of singularities in science, a black hole and the source of the big bang. This seems to be the latter. What's confusing is how they managed to take the remainder of these sources and turn them into stones. Each stone likely has universal range so maybe "creation itself" has something to do with the multiverse theory. What's even more confusing is how the space / time singularities existed before the universe. It would be paradoxical for them to "explode" into themselves. Maybe they're concepts given form?
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There is this quote, I don't know if it is useful:
"At the dawn of the universe, there was nothing, then boom! The Big Bang sent six elemental crystals hurtling across the virgin universe. These Infinity Stones each control an essential aspect of existence. Space, Reality, Power, Soul, Mind, and Time."
"At the dawn of the universe, there was nothing, then boom! The Big Bang sent six elemental crystals hurtling across the virgin universe. These Infinity Stones each control an essential aspect of existence. Space, Reality, Power, Soul, Mind, and Time."
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The stones were made to manipulate the new concepts that govern the universe
Its why the Celestials likely forged them. There was space and time before the universe was created, because there was a concept of space and time through the singularities.
The most I'm really giving him is likely higher rating or something. I don't think the evidence is there for 3-A and he has no Low 2-C justification.
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Hum yes it does, it's literally the second line on the pic you posted. "When the universe exploded into existence, the singularities' remnants were forged into concentrated ingots capable of manipulating the fundamental aspects of the new reality".
That's not it. The movie establishes Celestials create new suns and planets with their power, they're not creating matter for the universe as a whole, just new celestial bodies to bring life and heat. The explosion moment itself shows multiple celestial bodies being directly formed from the explosion of the ball of energy. Matter was clearly created from the explosion itself, space is also shown being born from it and it's repeatedly stated in the interview the scene is about the creation of the Big Bang. It also fits the description of a Big Bang feat on this wiki
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All of which were formed by the Celestials and in the same scene you have Celestials forge things out of nothing.
Yeah. Its a 2 vs 1 statement wise.
But the stones being collected remnants of the singularities still does not mean that Arishem scales to them. They existed before him and existed after him. They were just a thing that happened once reality was further established.
So again, the Tier 2 rating doesn't have backing since the Big Bang can't be Tier 2 and I personally think the Celestials forging stars and galaxies overtime negates the aspect that would make the Big Bang 3-A. The most I'd give him is somewhere between 4-B and 3-C.
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The first celestials bodies are shown being created from the explosion, not the Celestials as a whole
True then
I can agree with the Low 2-C thing. No, I do agree in the end. But again, the 3-A feat is solid. The interview is about the Big Bang being created, describes an explosion that creates the very fabric of space and mentions matter as something that is already there by that point and the scene shows celestial bodies being directly formed from the explosion itself.
And the Celestials are not building the universe, they're expanding it, they do not create matter or the fabric of space, they create stars to bring light, heat and gravity so galaxies can form later and the universe can be expanded but the Big Bang was what created the fabric of space and the original matter
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Okay the statements about the stone don't matter but regardless Arishem should still be 3-A.
We explicitly know prior to the Big bang Arishem was the only celestial and that's something stated multiple times and the fact that he gave birth to the rest of them after the event so Qawsedf at least on that front your argument falls apart as it wouldn't make sense for the other celestials to be birthing stars before Arishem caused the actual big bang event as he hadn't gave birth to them yet. Not only does the scene show the celestial creating celestial bodies after the big bang only but we're told at the start of the film that it was only Arishem who existed in the void prior to doing the big bang and when he tells the truth to Sersi he literally states he gave birth to the other celestials and planted their seeds.
Even going a step further it's explicitly stated by the eternals when they want to go against Arishem's plan that they believed his design(of celestials) is flawed once again showing he created them something that only happens post big bang which we see him cause
We explicitly know prior to the Big bang Arishem was the only celestial and that's something stated multiple times and the fact that he gave birth to the rest of them after the event so Qawsedf at least on that front your argument falls apart as it wouldn't make sense for the other celestials to be birthing stars before Arishem caused the actual big bang event as he hadn't gave birth to them yet. Not only does the scene show the celestial creating celestial bodies after the big bang only but we're told at the start of the film that it was only Arishem who existed in the void prior to doing the big bang and when he tells the truth to Sersi he literally states he gave birth to the other celestials and planted their seeds.
Even going a step further it's explicitly stated by the eternals when they want to go against Arishem's plan that they believed his design(of celestials) is flawed once again showing he created them something that only happens post big bang which we see him cause
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Really it only works in that way so either everything we're shown and told about Arishem and the things he says himself are all lies this includes WoG even confirming once again that Arishem existed in the void prior to the big bang or it's all true and he does the big bang while also creating other celestials to populate the new born universe while creating a cycle to ensure the life continues for as long as possible
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This is where my argument actual has the ground though. What I'm saying is that the MCU Big Bang can't be 3-A because the vast majority of the universe was created after the Big Bang, not during it. What you are saying is that... the majority of the universe was created after the Big Bang because Arishem and the celestials forged it.
The fact that Celestials are the ones who made the majority of stars and even galaxies means that the Big Bang in the MCU is far less impressive than most of versions of the event. For it to be 3-A you would need to prove that it produced the majority of the universe's mass.
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I might be missing something, but I don't think there is any statement that says that the Universe was created over time by the Celestials.
The Celestials simply continue the process of life, death and reborn of the Universe, destroying worlds so that new ones may be created from them, creating new Stars and Galaxies, which is different from Arishem causing the Big Bang.
The Celestials simply continue the process of life, death and reborn of the Universe, destroying worlds so that new ones may be created from them, creating new Stars and Galaxies, which is different from Arishem causing the Big Bang.
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In terms of this Arishem literally says that he created Celestials to maintain that balance and cycle of life and death as said here
Also we see the emptiness and darkness of the void and once it burst out we see nebulous clouds and stars and then we see celestials coming post big bang and creating more planets and stars for the cycle of life and death that Arishem makes them for so in the context we know what they're doing vs what Arishem did just applying that context
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It was never stated Celestials created the universe over time. They create "blocks of life" (per the promo videos for the Eternals), wich they do by creating new suns so light, heat and gravity can be generated and new life can emerge. They're simply expanding the universe created from the Big Bang by adding more celestial bodies and allowing new lifeforms to exist but the universe itself was created by the Big Bang.
Also, this very wiki states a Big Bang feat is 3-A when it creates "all the space of a universe or its space and time through a physical explosion", wich is exactly what we have here. The interview itself mentions the explosion is the origin of the fabric of space:
"We begin with а giаnt bаll of energy in Arishem’s hаnd, which explodes. “OK, now whаt?” it wаs like аfter thаt. We hаve аll of this аntimаtter аnd dаrk mаtter, аnd you cаn see thаt the fаbric of spаce isn’t perfectly smooth, with crevices where mаtter cаn collect аnd grаvitаtionаl pull cаn begin to form…"
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Yeah you're right. I phantom memoried a statement that doesn't exist during Arishem's speech. So that's a my bad there.
His big bang didn't create either, as the full explanation says
both space and time existed before the Big Bang with the six singularities. But I was misremembering a scene there, so him being 3-A is fine.
But they're not Tier 2.
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I think that's fine with the tier 2 not scaling because we know the infinity stones still existed prior
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3-A for Arishem seems fine.
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Like I said, I'm fine with 3-A to
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- #75
For the record, the Celestials somehow came before the singularities according to the intro text of the movie
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So what happens now?
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You've got 3 staff agreeances I believe right?
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Not sure about Ant but LordGriffin and Qawsedf agree with 3-A
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Kinda miffed that the Judge isn't tier 2 yet but 3-A seems fine plus it kinda fits in with the established world building since it seems none of the Celestials really considered Thanos a major threat.
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Yeah but at least he scales above regular 4-B celestials which are still pretty up there for the verse
