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Ergenverse possible TD for 4th step cultivators

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SweetDao

SweetDao

521
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The Essence qualities:

The Essence is described as the foundation of everything. Be it physical elements or more conceptual stuff like life and death.

In AWE, the Essence is described as being a lot of things, from having no form and shape but creating and containing every form and shape to being infinitely small and infinitely large at the same time.

Note that the description itself doesn't really prove dualities are there, sure there is some opposing concept (infinite large and small for example). But solely based on that, I doubt it can give trans duality, heck, even describing it as duality in itself seems a bit weird. Everything in that description is either what is encompassed by Essence or its qualities.

What is an Essence?

Essence is the Dao. Meaning that every Dao is an Essence.
The Dao of Yin and Yang exists, therefore a Yin-Yang Essence must exist too.

Yin-Yang Description/qualities:

There is a binary opposition in the world. One side is stated to be the Yin and the other the Yang. The Universe contains that binary opposite.
The opposition of concepts such as Good and Evil. Correct and Incorrect too.
Father/Sky and Earth/Mother describe as being the Yin and Yang.
Life and Death, Cause and Effect, True and False, all of that are separated by just one thought just like Yin and Yang.
The difference between Yin and Yang is defined as boundless and infinite.

Daosource and 4th step cultivators:
Daosource/step 4 cultivators are superior/transcendent to Essence.

They become their own Essence.

Their simple presence changed every law and Essence. Moreover, as shown in the scan, Meng Hao is stated to have resisted "All of the Essences" trying to expel him, which would include the Essence of Yin and Yang.

They are independent and can sustain themselves with only their own laws and Essence.

Allheaven tried to cut off the light from falling on Meng Hao, to which Meng Hao just told the light to screw off, showing he doesn't need it anymore, he's completely independent.

It was the same result when Allheaven created a law to make "no safe place" for Meng Hao.

Conclusion: Cultivators reaching the 4th step and above should gain TD (as for which type idk).

(I know that the verse is being revised by followers, but that addition if happening, shouldn't change much. I hope so at least)
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Agree :
Qawsedf234 (TD1), Lonkitt (TD1), Fixxed, Larssx, Setsuna_tenma, Georredannea15, Reiner, Robo (TD1), NannoKarma, Metallica_Kane (TD1)

Neutral :

Disagree : Sniper670
 
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I disagree. There's no Dual System here.

Dao of Yin-yang is meaningless as there's nothing describing what the Yin and Yang is within the context of the verse or even if there is dualities at all. This is clear cut Nominal Fallacy.

EG. Naruto has Yin-yang release. Does that mean Shibai is Transdual for being in a higher reality than base reality? No.

Pokémon has Nirvana. Oh boy, let's give it all the things Nirvana grants such as immortality type 5, Acausality type 5 etc.

We don't work like that.

The rest of the evidence are worse than the Yin and Yang and utterly meaningless. Has nothing to do with
Transduality

So I'll ask again, where is the Dual System
 
Sniper670 said:
I disagree. There's no Dual System here.

Dao of Yin-yang is meaningless as there's nothing describing what the Yin and Yang is within the context of the verse or even if there is dualities at all. This is clear cut Nominal Fallacy.

EG. Naruto has Yin-yang release. Does that mean Shibai is Transdual for being in a higher reality than base reality? No.

Pokémon has Nirvana. Oh boy, let's give it all the things Nirvana grants such as immortality type 5, Acausality type 5 etc.

We don't work like that.

The rest of the evidence are worse than the Yin and Yang and utterly meaningless. Has nothing to do with
Transduality

So I'll ask again, where is the Dual System
Click to expand...
I'll answer in a bit, just the time I found some scans since I was expecting that you would come (and thank you for that since I'm interested in debating it more than anything else, no matter the outcome)

Also, is it mandatory to list everyone who disagrees/agrees/is neutral?
 
Sniper670 said:
I disagree. There's no Dual System here.

Dao of Yin-yang is meaningless as there's nothing describing what the Yin and Yang is within the context of the verse or even if there is dualities at all. This is clear cut Nominal Fallacy.
Click to expand...
So first I must address this and I must agree that it seems pretty dry in itself. However, there have been multiple instances where Yin Yang has not only been mentioned but also compared to dualities.

Life and death, cause and effect, true and false, are just separated by a thought, much like Yin-Yang. Also this.

Yin-Yang is akin to the Father and the Mother/Earth and the Sky.

There was also an instance where a place, which was made up of half lava/half ice, was described as "like Yin and Yang".

Good and Evil are opposite concepts. There is also the matter of Correct and Incorrect.

Binary opposition. Clearly stated one side is Yin and the other is Yang.

Sniper670 said:
EG. Naruto has Yin-yang release. Does that mean Shibai is Transdual for being in a higher reality than base reality? No.
Click to expand...
Heh. I agree that I should have further thought of that, now there you have some scans to work with instead of just a name fallacy.


Sniper670 said:
Pokémon has Nirvana. Oh boy, let's give it all the things Nirvana grants such as immortality type 5, Acausality type 5 etc.
Click to expand...
True, that might be a stretch to give everything based on the name alone, I should have explained/shown more scans.


Sniper670 said:
The rest of the evidence are worse than the Yin and Yang and utterly meaningless. Has nothing to do with
Transduality
Click to expand...
How so? If transcendent cultivators are outside/superior/independent of the Essence that is the very representation of such dualities, that should make them qualitatively superior to it and as such grant them some form of TD?

From what I understood you need two things to be TD. First, you need to be outside of "duality", which is the case with transcendent cultivators since they are independent of pretty much everything besides their own Essence. The second one is transcendence over whatever embodies/is defined as duality by the verse, which in that case could refer to the Essence of Yin-Yang.

Transcendent cultivators both met those prerequisites, at least to me.
 
As I said before
Transduality is the state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, and qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from very specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level
Click to expand...
The key word is "Independently of". They're all still reliant on the Essence, it's just that their Essence are disconnected from thr Essence of reality. Which isn't a TD justification. To get TD they would have to have no Essence.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
As I said before

The key word is "Independently of". They're all still reliant on the Essence, it's just that their Essence are disconnected from thr Essence of reality. Which isn't a TD justification. To get TD they would have to have no Essence.
Click to expand...
I don't understand. Not all Essence are dualities tho? The Essence embodying such dualities, the Essence of Yin-Yang, is something that 4th step cultivators don't inherently need, but moreso transcends and are independent of. If you assume that every Essence has some part of another essence inside it, it goes directly against their meaning. And even then, what would be the opposite/duality of Meng Hao? Non-Meng Hao?

Like, are you assuming "The Essence of Meng Hao" has some sort of duality going on? The Essence of Meng Hao defines "what Meng Hao is" and I doubt one of his intrinsic qualities would be duality. Written here.

Are they independently existing outside/beyond the Essence of Yin-Yang? Yes. Except if I missed something, it falls into the definition you just gave.
 
SweetDao said:
Are they independently existing outside/beyond the Essence of Yin-Yang? Yes. Except if I missed something, it falls into the definition you just gave.
Click to expand...
You're arguing for Type 2 TD, which is independent of all concepts of duality. If it was Type 1 I could see where you're coming from, but they have no evidence for Type 2.

SweetDao said:
I don't understand
Click to expand...
They have a personal Essence and a personal system that governs them. That bars them from TD Type 2. That fact you know who Meng Hao is and therefore what he isn't, is a duality. The IS from the IS NOT.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
You're arguing for Type 2 TD, which is independent of all concepts of duality. If it was Type 1 I could see where you're coming from, but they have no evidence for Type 2.
Click to expand...
As I stated in the OP, I didn't really specify any form of TD, be it type 1 or 2, so anything is fine. Just like nothing is fine too, as long as everything is thoroughly debated and explained, I'll accept the outcome.
Qawsedf234 said:
They have a personal Essence and a personal system that governs them. That bars them from TD Type 2. That fact you know who Meng Hao is and therefore what he isn't, is a duality. The IS from the IS NOT.
Click to expand...
An Essence isn't a system tho? An Essence is quite literally what is defining something/someone (in the case of transcendent), why would the definition of something/of their intrinsic qualities act as a system?

Meng Hao's Essence is not only described as being "more" than simply "The Demon" (basically a special type of transcendent path that is unique) but it is also stated he is at odds with the very world, the ultimate form of chaos.

Meng Hao can be anything he wants, I don't understand why he would have a counterpart of "What Meng Hao isn't". There is only one Meng Hao, no one can bear the Essence of Meng Hao besides himself. I'll also add that when transcending, it was stated that his body was neither a mortal one nor a cultivator one at this point.
 
SweetDao said:
The Essence embodying such dualities, the Essence of Yin-Yang,
Click to expand...
Mhmhmhm....... dont know if the yin and yang is one of many duality or the symbolize of the duality it self. It have different meaning and different result for this thread
 
Fixxed said:
Mhmhmhm....... dont know if the yin and yang is one of many duality or the symbolize of the duality it self. It have different meaning and different result for this thread
Click to expand...
Yin-Yang is the symbol of duality itself. Representation of all dualities.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
You're arguing for Type 2 TD, which is independent of all concepts of duality. If it was Type 1 I could see where you're coming from, but they have no evidence for Type 2.


They have a personal Essence and a personal system that governs them. That bars them from TD Type 2. That fact you know who Meng Hao is and therefore what he isn't, is a duality. The IS from the IS NOT.
Click to expand...
OP isn't arguing TD type 2
thats why i agree with TD type 1
 
I agree with TD with the feats and explanations above for being trenscendant and independant to all concepts including Dao of Ying and Ying. I let you decide the type of TD.
 
Fixxed said:
Mhmhmhm....... dont know if the yin and yang is one of many duality or the symbolize of the duality it self. It have different meaning and different result for this thread
Click to expand...
Yin-Yang is the literal name for the binary opposite that exists in the universe. Whatever is a binary opposite would fall under the Essence of Yin and Yang.
Qawsedf234 said:
In that case, TD Type 1 is fine. Just specify the concepts they resisted.
Click to expand...
That the thing, they would "have transcended" everything that falls into the Yin-Yang territory, which to extrapolate would mean anything that has an opposition since the universe itself is based on that. I suppose TD 1 is fine, but it would mean a VERY LARGE TD1 that would encompass everything in the verse that can be defined as a duality, or, for non-NLF sake, every duality that is somewhat mentioned or hinted at, which would very much lowball the dualities present in the verse.

The easiest way would be to very simply explain that they are independent and transcend the Essence of Yin-Yang, which incarnates/represent/whatever the binary opposition present in the universe.
 
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SweetDao said:
Yin-Yang is the literal name for the binary opposite that exists in the universe.
Click to expand...
So then you are arguing for Type 2, which they don't qualify for as discussed previously

SweetDao said:
That the thing, they would "have transcended" everything that falls into the Yin-Yang territory, which to extrapolate would mean anything that has an opposition since the universe itself is based on that.
Click to expand...
Since there are dualities other than Yin-Yang, they only qualify for Yin-Yang TD.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
So then you are arguing for Type 2, which they don't qualify for as discussed previously


Since there are dualities other than Yin-Yang, they only qualify for Yin-Yang TD.
Click to expand...
But, true and false, reality and unreality, cause and effect, such things compose the binary opposition of the universe that Yin-Yang incarnate.

Essence of Yin and Yang just chilling => Binary opposition in the universe based on it => True/False, cause/effect, reality/unreality,...

If you transcend the root of it, why would you not transcend what it defines?

Sure, we can say that they have Yin-Yang TD, but it would mean they still transcend life/death, reality/unreality, ... as a consequence. In the context, the Essence of Yin-Yang would be the thing that sprouts the binary opposition of the universe, so even if we assume it's a TD1, it would be encompassing what it brought up in the world.
 
SweetDao said:
Sure, we can say that they have Yin-Yang TD, but it would mean they still transcend life/death, reality/unreality, ... as a consequence. In the context, the Essence of Yin-Yang would be the thing that sprouts the binary opposition of the universe, so even if we assume it's a TD1, it would be encompassing what it brought up in the world.
Click to expand...
TD Type 2 is every duality per its definition. Even if your duality included every duality other than "Hot" vs "Is not Hot" it would still be classified as TD Type 1 because it lacks that singular duality within it.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
TD Type 2 is every duality per its definition. Even if your duality included every duality other than "Hot" vs "Is not Hot" it would still be classified as TD Type 1 because it lacks that singular duality within it.
Click to expand...
Okay, so you agree that Yin-Yang embodies every duality, but the personal Essence of the cultivator would make TD 2 impossible because of the "You know what Meng Hao is and therefore what he is not" (IS and IS NOT in short)? If so, I understand your reasoning (albeit I still have some reservations about it) and I can agree with that.
 
Well, before it was TD Type 2. If was just Type 1 then they've always had that justification.
 
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