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Epic Persona 5 Revisions (Formerly known as Yaldy (Personaugh) revisions (Mostly hax))

Dr. whiteee and I were talking about the possibility of the Velvet Room existing in a void, what with it being a place that exists between the mental and physical universes.

Since Yaldy was able to take control of the Velvet Room as well as BFR it to the Prison of Regression, plus his feats of Existence Erasure via Reality Warping, it might be grounds for giving Yaldabaoth Void Manip.
 
If he does get void manip, I can only see it being pretty limited degrees of it, since even assuming the velvet room is actually in a void would just mean he can drag things out of them.
 
When I said void I didn't mean an actual void. I just meant it's a space that exist between physical/mental planes of existence.
 
That can be discussed when the changes to Yaldy's profile are actually implemented.
 
Alright, Yaldabaoth's profile has been updated, so if no one has anything left to add, this thread can be closed.
 
You should preferably get more staff agreement before upgrading profiles, but Sera usually has a good sense of judgement.
 
Message from Sins:

Ren should probably still have his 4-A key, as Okumura did the feat, not Yaldy.
 
I agree and meant to bring that up earlier but I forgot. Question is should it be different keys or "4-A, Low 2-C with Satanael"?
 
Imo he should have both a 4-A and a Low 2-C key, since he could damage yaldabaoth without Satanael.
 
"Key: Early-Game | Mid-Game | End-Game | With Satanael" maybe?

So, something like: "At least 7-C | High 4-C | At least 4-A | Low 2-C"?

Ercosore has a point, though. Even if it wasn't much, the PTs did damage Yaldabaoth in the final battle. After all, they managed to disable the Gun of Execution, Bell of Declaration, Sword of Conviction and Book of Commandments. Would this upgrade the PTs AP to Low 2-C, or at least 3-A?
 
Heavy Doubt. Yaldabaoth never even sweats. He casually one shotted them in the first encounter, and it makes no sense from a narrative standpoint. Why would they get scaled to a form Joker needed to unlock in his most dire time of need that clearly ascended him to crazy levels to beat Yald? What they accomplished was also mostly through teamwork and damagin his weapons doesn't mean much.
 
Yaldy is able to casually restore his arms after a few turns though. Like the PTs did fight him and all but they didn't really do any lasting damage to him, I personally don't think the fight is enough to scale them all to Yaldy
 
You both have a point, but I just find it weird accepting that 4-A AP can so much as even scratch Low 2-C durability. We also know for a fact that they managed to more than scratch Yaldabaoth, since if they couldn't, then he wouldn't have needed to restore his arms in the first place. We also have no indication that Yaldabaoth even bothered to hold back so much. We just know that he had the ability to use Rays of Control without charging up with Divine Apex.

As for the PTs getting easily 'defeated' in the first encounter, it was more they didn't know what they were up against. Yaldabaoth has far superior hax, and the PTs couldn't handle it until the Velvet Room lent their assistance. In the next encounter they were obviously better than they were, or else Yaldabaoth wouldn't have needed to show his true form at all.

The way I see it, the PTs could contend with full power Yaldabaoth, but had no way of keeping him down what with the latter's limitless stamina, healing and immortality. Meanwhile, the PTs were losing stamina and taking injuries, making them too weak to defend themselves when Yaldy decided to start spamming Rays of Control. That's where Satanael comes in to save the day.

The PTs losing was a matter of their incapability to deal with Yaldy's hax, but in terms of raw AP there's no reason to believe that Yaldy was holding back against them - save not spamming RoC.

There's also the fact that Igor was confident the Phantom Thieves had a chance to pull it off. Let it be known that this is the same Igor that claimed Nyx was undefeatable, even with the Universe Arcana. That Igor believes the PTs had a chance despite Ren not even having the World Arcana at all, against a foe far superior to Nyx, shows that the Phantom Thieves weren't so ridiculously out of their league such as what would be implied when a Tier 4 goes up against a Tier 2 with superior hax.
 
Pretty much all of Yaldy's attacks during the fight were done via gestures, which by itself implies that he wasn't even seriously fighting him. For instance his normal attack, arrow of light, falls out of the sky following Yaldy just moving his hand a couple inches. Him "charging" rays of control is an act as well, considering how the thieves can outright disable the arms while they're charging the sphere and he doesn't even care and just nukes them anyways. Him pretending about this sort of thing wouldn't be out of character for him either, considering how he views humanity as basically sheep to rule over and mess with for fun.

In most works of fiction that involve them, different beings generally have to be depicted as at least comparable to each other for the sake of telling a good story, but the fact that a commonly-depicted-as-island-level one can scratch a multiversal one without getting atomized isn't usually considered enough to make Mr. Island scale to Mr. Multiversal. This isn't too different; the fact that Yaldy easily wiped them out twice in a row + never suffered actual damage until Satanael + was matching, if not overwhelming, the PTs with mere gestures is plenty to indicate that they don't scale to him.
 
It is best if you ask the staff members listed in the Persona (Verse) page to comment here.
 
LukaSolosYourVerse said:
-snip-
Click to expand...
The argument about gestures doesn't really work. Plenty of bosses across RPGs only gesture to signal their attacks. Hell, even most powerful Personas only gesture their attacks, especially when they're too big for expression to be practical. Even in the Persona series, Nyx Avatar only ever raised their hand or swung their sword. Even Izanami only ever gestured despite fighting Izanagi-no-Okami. Hell, SMT Metatron, the ultimate angel, just raises his arms in his fight against Demi-Fiend.

You also can't say that Yaldabaoth never suffered any actual damage. Those arms were still a part of him, after all. Him being able to casually restore them just means he has good healing. The PTs still broke them; there's no getting around that.

Yaldy wiped them out because 1) the PTs weren't prepared for his hax, and 2) Yaldy easily outlasts their stamina. The first defeat only had the Holy Grail BFRing the PTs to Shibuya, where they were powerless. The second defeat was when he skipped Divine Apex and went straight to Rays of Control, when the Thieves were already tired.

Actually, now that I think about it more, it's made abundantly clear that the PTs could handle Yaldy's full AP.

For one, the same RoC that ended the second fight pre-Satanael didn't even cripple the PTs. They could still stand up just fine, albeit exhausted. And the same RoC was fired again when Satanael was summoned and it's made clear by Yaldy's reaction that he wasn't holding back. Neither were charged up, and yet the PTs tanked the first one, if barely. There's no indication that the second was stronger than the first, either.

TL;DR

1. Yaldy wiped them out becuase of hax, not a difference in AP.

2. Yaldy was damaged. There's no getting around the fact that those arms were a part of Yaldabaoth, and thus shared his durability, yet were clearly destroyed.

3. Gestures mean nothing in reflecting the amount of effort being displayed in a game centered around turn-based combat; especially when the opponent is so large.

4. Yaldabaoth used the same attack twice, with no indication of the two being different in scale. The first time, it was tanked by the Phantom Thieves, while the second time it was nulled by Satanael and Yaldabaoth made it clear that he wasn't holding back.
 
Antvasima said:
It is best if you ask the staff members listed in the Persona (Verse) page to comment here.
Click to expand...
It is best if you do this. You can also use the Knowledgeable Members List.

Also, I will unsubscribe from this thread now. You can send me a message if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.
 
The thieves weren't just exhausted, they were straight-up grimacing in pain and struggling to stand after RoC, and the subsequent unnamed rainbow lightning thing sent them to the floor for good. It's made absolutely clear there that Yaldy AP stomped them into submission, complete with Ryuji commenting on how he was stronger than them and all.

The arms were the weakest, most expendable parts of him. Their destruction doesn't affect the rest of his being at all, so if we were to give the PTs Low 2-C they'd be really low on the AP department considering how breaking those arms is essentially the same as scratching his middle finger.

Though all in all I suppose Low 2-C PTs wouldn't be too bad, so despite the fact that I disagree I don't care that much about it anyways lol
 
I agree with Solacis here. Also, assuming Yaldabaoth's arms alone to be 4-A would a colossal reach (pun intended).

The rest of the thieves by this point in the game should just be a far lower degree of Low 2-C, I feel.
 
Yeah, just because they were decisively defeated, doesn't mean that they're two whole tiers lower in AP. It makes less sense for only specific parts of Yaldabaoth's body to be 4-A while the rest is Low 2-C, than it is for the PTs to just have gotten stronger.

Just take a look at Iskandar and Heracles from the Fate series. They're both 7-A and situationally High 7-A, but the former would get absolutely bodied by the latter because of a difference in hax.

The only issue I can see with Low 2-C PTs is that the Twins would scale to late-game Joker, which would still be Low 2-C, even if on a far lower degree. The other attendants would then scale to the Twins, and then we'd have to explain why the Velvet Room attendants are on the same tier of power as Philemon. But then again, that could just serve to buff Philemon via creating Igor, who created several entities on par with himself. And last I checked, there were also tentative revisions going on for Nyarlathotep anyway, so who knows how much the Persona series is getting buffed.
 
Iskandar can actually reasonably kill Heracles, so that's not a example. In fact, he's one of the few in the entire series who can do it without outside help feasibly.
 
I still believe the Thieves should scale to Yaldabaoth, they were clearly damaging him, and even when Yaldabaoth got serious they were still able to resist the rays of control.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Nobody scales to Yaldabaoth besides Satanael.
Click to expand...
Nobody scales to bloodlusted Yaldabaoth except for Satanael, true. But how do we explain the Thieves managing to damage him despite his Low 2-C durability? What about when they tanked Rays of Control - one on the same scale as the one that had Yaldabaoth exclaiming "Impossible!" when it was nulled by Satanael?

With all due respect, Matt, could you at least address the stated points? I know you're a knowledgeable admin and all, but that doesn't exempt you from the need to make an actual argument.
 
You are completely missing the point. The thieves never do jack to yaldabaoth. At the end of the fight Yald is literally no worse for the wear after fighting them, and had Joker not awakened Satanael they would have succeded only in destroying his weapons and the fight ends in the exact same manner as the first encounter. Yald is so casually non damaged at the end of the boss fight and his health bar serves as little more than his weapons health (which takes them a long time to beat themselves) and clearly has no correlation to his actual health.

You also keep ignoring the narrative aspect. It takes a whole party multiple turns using hax debuffs/buffs in tandem JUST to destroy his weapons. Afterwards yald gets serious and stomps them casually. Why would they then individually scale to a power that could control multiple universes, and a power matched and beaten only by Joker's (the strongest PT) awakening into a form that clearly superceeds his own power by literal miles. It literally makes no sense to have the thieves anywhere close to yald in power, and by extension Satanael.

This is along the same lines of trying to scale Krillen/Yajarobi to Vegeta because they injured him due to clear plot points/storytelling. It's completely inconsistent with all showings and narrative logic. This happens in comics all the time, and is the whole reason we analyze feats in context and not just the feats themselves.

I love persona and particularly the P5 cast, but it's clearly a reach to try and scale the individual thieves to god tier, on the same level as Satanael Joker and Yald. The tier difference is readily apparent both feats wise and from a narrative standpoint.
 
That being said a clear argument can be made for Big Bang Galaxy being solid galaxy level. You can clearly see a mag cloud in the background, and the blast dwarfs it completely. I know this site uses the whole weird "space in between" arguments which ups the power needed to be galaxy level from MSS, so I'm not sure exactly how the current value was established.
 
"The thieves never do jack to yaldabaoth. At the end of the fight Yald is literally no worse for the wear after fighting them, and had Joker not awakened Satanael they would have succeded only in destroying his weapons and the fight ends in the exact same manner as the first encounter."

Except they do damage Yaldabaoth? It's true they never would have been able to defeat him without Satanael but that doesn't at all negate the fact that they were able to repeatedly destroy parts of his body.

To quote Solacis from before:

You also can't say that Yaldabaoth never suffered any actual damage. Those arms were still a part of him, after all. Him being able to casually restore them just means he has good healing. The PTs still broke them; there's no getting around that.

Yaldy wiped them out because 1) the PTs weren't prepared for his hax, and 2) Yaldy easily outlasts their stamina.

Again, unless you're arguing that his arms and weapons are arbitrarily 4-A in contrast to the rest of him, Yaldabaoth being fine without them at the end of the fight doesn't really change anything.

"It takes a whole party multiple turns using hax debuffs/buffs in tandem JUST to destroy his weapons. Afterwards yald gets serious and stomps them casually. Why would they then individually scale to a power that could control multiple universes, and a power matched and beaten only by Joker's (the strongest PT) awakening into a form that clearly superceeds his own power by literal miles."

The thieves being a team doesn't discount the fact that they can all damage him with individual attacks. No, they obviously don't scale one-to-one to Yaldabaoth's power, but they scale to a far lower level of Low 2-C for being able to damage him what little they could.

Nobody here is saying any of the thieves are singularly a match for Yaldabaoth. They can be within the same tier without being as strong as him or able to take him down. The proposition I'm making personally would be something like: Satanael >>> Yaldabaoth >>>>>>>> The rest of The Phantom Thieves, all of which still within Low 2-C.

"This is along the same lines of trying to scale Krillen/Yajarobi to Vegeta because they injured him due to clear plot points/storytelling. It's completely inconsistent with all showings and narrative logic. This happens in comics all the time, and is the whole reason we analyze feats in context and not just the feats themselves. "

Literally none of this reasoning applies to Persona nor to the showings in question. The DB thing also isn't even a good comparison.
 
You're ignoring the fact that his arms were being destroyed and disabled by taking damage from their attacks. Also, if Persona wanted a boss you flat-out couldn't damage, they'd do the whole "You can't move!" thing that was done with Makoto and Nyx.

In addition, the Low 2-C durability also applies to the Holy Grail form, and if the Phantom Thieves couldn't damage that, then the whole "the veins regenerate him!" thing wouldn't have even happened.
 
Solacis said:
That also brings up another thing. If we assume that Yaldy created the Shadows, then wouldn't Joker's negotiation skills go from superhuman charisma to flat-out mind control? It doesn't help that the Sun Arcana has a confidant skill outright called "Mind Control" which allows Joker to instantly recruit Shadows as his Personas.
Click to expand...
^^^ Something we haven't yet addressed properly.

Also, shouldn't the PTs get resistance to Transmutation? There was that one boss in Futaba's Palace that turned them into rats but they recovered over time during the battle.
 
@LukaSolosYourVerse might as well change the name of this thread to "Persona Super Revisions" or something considering how much we're going over.
 
The Phantom Thieves collectively defeated the Holy Grail, which is the form Yaldy was in when he fused reality and Mementos. The thieves don't scale to Yaldy's God of Control form (maybe just his arms which are arguably each as strong as the Holy Grail with their own hax). But they got bopped by the main body. Only Joker w/ Satanael scales to Yaldy.

Also, with P5R bringing all new plot details and actually giving us the complete version of the epilogue, I am certain Akechi will be in the final battle as well, but that's for my Persona revisions in October (when the game comes out, at least here in Japan).
 
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