Epic Persona 5 Revisions (Formerly known as Yaldy (Personaugh) revisions (Mostly hax))

[Solacis]

@Sera EX

The issue is still that the sheer discrepancy in capability between the main body and the arms is ridiculous and unsupported by anything in the game.

The only thing different between when the Phantom Thieves fought the HG the first time and the second time is that Mementos and Reality had been fused. The only thing different between when the Phantom Thieves fought the HG the second time and when they fought the God of Control form is that Yaldabaoth could then actually move.

There's no mention by anyone whatsoever of Yaldabaoth holding back or getting significantly stronger in terms of AP between any of these respective fights. The biggest acknowledgement is that the full body is freaking huge and nothing more.

Edit: Actually, now that I rewatched the boss fight, while it's rare, there are points when you can hear Yaldy grunting in pain when he's attacked/debuffed. Dismiss HP value, sure. But you can't ignore spoken lines.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Sol

When the true body was revealed, they clearly say "he's on a completely different level!", Yusuke wondered if they could defeat him in this state (despite having beaten the Grail five minutes ago), Futaba said "his readings are off the charts!", etc.

Contextually speaking, they wouldn't need to say that if his strength was the same as it was as the Holy Grail.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

"Except they do damage Yaldabaoth? It's true they never would have been able to defeat him without Satanael but that doesn't at all negate the fact that they were able to repeatedly destroy parts of his body."

No they don't. The whole fight is literally fighting his hax weapons. When they defeat those, he literally one shots the whole party. They do literally nothing to his actual constitution. We have no idea if the weapons scale to his actual Durability, and given that the game never even shows anyone outside of Satanael damaging him, you are left at square one.

"The thieves being a team doesn't discount the fact that they can all damage him with individual attacks. No, they obviously don't scale one-to-one to Yaldabaoth's power, but they scale to a far lower level of Low 2-C for being able to damage him what little they could.

Nobody here is saying any of the thieves are singularly a match for Yaldabaoth. They can be within the same tier without being as strong as him or able to take him down. The proposition I'm making personally would be something like: Satanael >>> Yaldabaoth >>>>>>>> The rest of The Phantom Thieves, all of which still within Low 2-C."

portrayal wise yes it does. Taking a whole team effort just to beat his weapons says alot from a narrative context. It's different when the theives fight the lower bosses and actually defeat said entitty. That's not at all the case with god form yaldabaoth.

The phantom thieves don't fit into said propisition because it's made abundantly clear they couldn't do anything to his actual form and had a 0% chance of ever actually affecting him in any substantial manner. Scaling them to 2-C off of fighting and defeating his weapons (which are mostly hax) and ignoring all other context is a no go IMO.

Literally none of this reasoning applies to Persona nor to the showings in question. The DB thing also isn't even a good comparison.

yes it does...It literally applies to all fiction we analyze. By your logic in ingoring all context you are taking the feats in of themselves and making the "well they hurt him so they have to scale" argument, neverminding the fact that they never actually hurt yaldabaoth himself. So this is the same thing present in other fictions in which clearly weaker characters "hurt" a vastly stronger opponent due to story/plot, but realistically are no where even close to the power of the entity they are facing. This is one of those cases, especially given that we have no idea how powerful his weapons are in comparison to himself.

The thieves arbitrarily scaling to Universe+ makes no sense within the progression of the story and would also mean we retroactively scale the likes of Akechi and Shido as well given they by themselves could fight the thieves for extended periods of time before being done in, and the PT never really fight anything substantial after those battles that would explain a MSS to universal buff. Except Satanael which is the clear narrative powerup given to Joker allowing him to actually phase Yaldabaoth's true form.

 

[Solacis]

1. Explain Yaldabaoth grunting in pain occasionally when his main body is struck during the boss fight, then.

2. Explain why Yaldabaoth's arms, which are unique to his God of Control form, are suddenly so ridiculously weaker than the rest of him for no reason whatsoever.

3. Explain why the Phantom Thieves can take a hit from Rays of Control when Yaldabaoth clearly considers it one of his strongest moves; judging by how shocked he is when Satanael just flat-out nulls it.

Besides, progression of strength isn't an argument. The Phantom Thieves jumped from 7-C to High 4-C between Kaneshiro and Futaba's Palaces, and from High 4-C to 4-A between Futaba and Okumura. Massive jumps in strength feats isn't exactly new for them.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

1.) I don't have to. They didn't do shit to him, a simple grunt isn't changing that. It's called making the fight look and sound like a fight. You're really sitting here trying to use a grunt as justification.

2.) I don't have to, burden of proof is on you. The weapons aren't yaldabaoth and functions as extensions of his hax.

3.) Pretty much the only legit point. But too bad they were about to get whiped out by them when yald got serious.

4.) Yes it is in the context of my argument, which you should re-read to fully understand.

You didn't address any of the other points.

 

[Solacis]

1. Game mechanics only go so far. We're already dismissing HP values, a sentiment I don't agree with but am willing to discard because it's directly tied to gameplay. That said, you can't just decide to dismiss dialogue on top of that just because you consider it an aesthetic choice. Dialogue isn't directly tied to gameplay. It is what gives us context as to what's actually going on in the fight beyond gameplay-story segregation. Even your idea of "it makes it look and sound like a fight" doesn't work because he barely grunts ever; to the point that I had to watch 20 minutes of gameplay just to hear it once when I looked it up.

2. What you're attempting to prove is that a direct extension of Yaldabaoth is supposedly two entire tiers weaker than the main body. Are you going to argue that every robot-esque character on the wiki needs to have their every extra limb tested for durability? The burden of proof is not on me, but you, because I am unable to prove that something doesn't exist. If you claim that Yaldy's arms are so much weaker than the rest of him, it is up to you to prove it when it contests the established common sense. All of your arguments in regards to this issue hinges on your assumption that the arms are weaker. Your whole perspective falls apart if you can't even prove that.

3. The Rays of Control that Satanael blocked is just as strong as the Rays of Control that the Phantom Thieves tanked on their own. And based on Yaldabaoth's reaction to the former, it was clearly a serious effort. Even tanking one Low 2-C attack is worth a lower-end Low 2-C durability. You can't just assume he's holding back one moment and is 100% serious the next with only circumstantial evidence. Unless he or another trustworthy source claims that he's holding back, or otherwise going full-power, then it can't be proven. Once again, you have to prove that he is holding back beyond it just being vaguely in-character for him to do so.

4. "the PT never really fight anything substantial after those battles that would explain a MSS to universal buff". So what? The Thieves never fought anything substantial to let them jump from at best 7-B to High 4-C. There is also literally no precedent of the Thieves adhering to natural progression of strength in the story, and if there are, please point it out.

 

[Sera_EX]

Natural progression is a fallacy. It's irrelevant. In Dies irae you have characters jumping from 7-A to 1-A. You can have a jump from 8-B to High 2-A or a jump from 5-B to 3-A in a single event.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with the PT not scaling to Yaldy. I also agree with the new hax and Satanael Joker scaling to Yaldy.

 

[Sera_EX]

The PT do scale to Yaldy, but only the Holy Grail form. You can't just cherrypick and assume they don't scale.

They only get destroyed by Yaldy's (God of Control form) main body and even Joker couldn't. But they all defeated the Grail which is the form Yaldy took when he merged reality and Mementos.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I should have specified...when I say Yaldy, I mean the GoC form, not the Holy Grail. How powerful is the Hoky Grail form btw? He needs a key.

 

[Sera_EX]

The Grail is what merged reality and Mementos together. A merging of space-time is Low 2-C. GoC Yaldy is just a higher degree of Low 2-C since Futaba and Yusuke's dialogue implies that form was superior in strength.

Futaba: That thing is off the charts!

Yusuke: Can we defeat something like that?

This is after they defeated the Grail like 5 minutes ago.

 

[Solacis]

As much as I hate to sound whiny, can people please address the points I've made?

I don't particularly mind whether or not the PTs scale to GoC Yaldy or not, but I would appreciate it if my arguments were to be properly addressed instead of being hit by a bunch of people saying "I don't agree", or otherwise agreeing with the other side. Especially when I've just contested several points that contribute to the validity of the "PTs don't scale" argument.

 

[Sera_EX]

Sorry Sol ;_;

I obviously agree with most of what you said. Especially the points about dialogue, natural progression bs, the Rays of Control, etc.

 

[Solacis]

Thanks Sera.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I think you do make sense, Basically, Yaldy would have 2 Low 2-C keys? Would GoC Yaldy be "At least Low 2-C"?

 

[Solacis]

HG Yaldy would be a lower-end Low 2-C. Weak enough to be defeated by the combined might of the Phantom Thieves.

GoC Yaldy would be a significantly higher end of Low 2-C. Enough to be able to defeat the Phantom Thieves handily if he went all-out from the start, but not enough to utterly wreck them.

I'd say something like: Holy Grail <= Phantom Thieves <<< God of Control << Satanael

Although the gap between Satanael and GoC Yaldy could be far greater by virtue of the former effectively one-shotting him. That said, we don't know how much damage GoC Yaldy had sustained up to that point, either.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

1.) Nothing about the dialogue indicates anything substantial. There is a precipice of if something is substantial, and a grunt audio track is no where near sufficient evidence to solicit the PT doing anything substantial to Yaldabaoth. You can be hurt by something IRL that doesn't come close to actually damaging you. It'd be one thing if Yald keeled over, screamed out in a pain cry, or actually noted them hurting him ("that was a real good shot, but not enough to put me down!". But we have none of that. You are also dismissing actual dialogue that goes against your points like the PT's noting that Yald is soo hilariously above their level.

2.) No the burden of the proof is not me lol. You are claiming that the weapons are universal+, and thus the thieves should scale from destroying them. I am disagreeing with that claim. The onus is on you to prove the positive. The PT never do jack to Yaldabaoth, and is wepaons of unknown strength requires dozens of rounds to put down.

3.) I'm not arguing that he was holding back with the rays, moreover it was an outlier in which the game has to hold a narrative structure (aka the theives not being completely erased before ending). There are literally hundreds of examples of this across fiction where extremely weak and non scalable characters survive something, but don't get scaled. For example, do you think John Giant Vice Admiral from One Piece should scale to Whitebeard because he wasn't made into a mist from tanking a Whitebeard quake to his dome? No, that's dumb. Which is why you view the context of the feat, and not just the feat itself. You have to take into account the internal validity of the series itself, as well as the external validity of our analysis for feats. In this context we have a universal god, who is never threatened by the thieves, stated by themselves to be on another level, and after his weapons are defeated is literal moments from one shotting the thieves. The thieves are not at all done for if you defeat yald's weapons (you still have HP and obviously have to win with health to progress) and yet they end up on their knees unable to injure him at all, and being moments away from dying. In no way does that context suggest should a single PT fight against Yaldabaoth, that they wouldn't be instantly one shotted, making the idea that they should scale laughable.

4.) The thieves obviously level up after every fight. Natural progression is important here because it is a jump to god tier that you are suggesting. One that is clearly present during their fight, and only eclipsed by Joker gaining Satanel. It's crazy to suggest that the thieves are anywhere close to Satanael or Yalabaoth given performances, and once again would require ridiculous retroactive scaling to Shido and Goro because the PT don't do shit in between the yald and Shido battle. Essentially meaning you believe they were universal+ before the yaldabaoth "feats" themselves, which is also where they would get the scaling from. Which is clearly ass backwards.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The Grail is what merged reality and Mementos together. A merging of space-time is Low 2-C. GoC Yaldy is just a higher degree of Low 2-C since Futaba and Yusuke's dialogue implies that form was superior in strength.
Futaba: That thing is off the charts!

Yusuke: Can we defeat something like that?

This is after they defeated the Grail like 5 minutes ago.

I suppose this is a valid point though since the thieves do defeat this form of Yald. I actually forgot it was grail form that performed the fusion.

 

[Sera_EX]

I think you do make sense, Basically, Yaldy would have 2 Low 2-C keys? Would GoC Yaldy be "At least Low 2-C"?

Nah, just a second Low 2-C key. At least is for those significantly above baseline.

 

[Solacis]

1. I should probably mention that the last hit in Yaldy GoC boss fight has him being blown back and actually crying out in pain, if the grunt isn't enough for you. Let it also be known that there is absolutely no way for a 4-A character to so much as scratch a Low 2-C. I'm not even talking about the "drawing blood" kind of scratches, but the "leaving a tiny imprint on the skin" kind of scratches. Low 2-C is quite literally billions of times stronger than 4-A.

2. What you are trying to claim is that a direct extension of Yaldy's body is arbitrarily thousands of times weaker than the rest of it. It's the same as claiming that if a character had a third arm, it's somehow weaker than the rest of the body by virtue of having no feats of durability of its own. It's illogical, and thus it is you who has to prove otherwise in the context of Yaldabaoth. If you refuse to, then there is no reason to take this part of your argument seriously.

3. It clearly isn't an outlier if the PTs have already displayed other feats at Low 2-C, which as I and others have been making clear, they have. So no, your argument makes no sense. It's either Yaldy was holding back so as to not accidentally kill people literally billions of times weaker than him, or said people are actually durable enough to take the hit; otherwise, there's no logical sense. You can't just brush that off, because once you let go of logic, suddenly nothing makes sense.

4. Level ups are game mechanics. They are never brought up in the plot, ever. Also, you seem to have missed the part where I mentioned that in-between when the PTs were 7-B and High 4-C, nothing happened. Kaneshiro was 7-B at best, and yet without any notable occurrences whatsoever, the PTs were strong enough to take down High 4-C Cognitive Wakaba. And once again, between High 4-C Cognitive Wakaba/Pyramid of Wrath and 4-A Okumura, there was nothing to bridge the gap, either. So once again, no, natural progression is not a factor.

 

[SinsofMan]

I think Solacis makes the most sense. Also, to add his argument.

I am pretty sure the standard in the vast majority of video game profiles is that doing damage in a boss fight means they scale.

In fact, Persona is the outlier in this regard considering the cast for the most part just doesnt scale to end games bosses, possibly because of the recurring theme since 3 that the MC kills the final boss while the final boss either BFRs the cast, or just fights the MC by themselves in special circumstances. Final Fantasy does this, so I dont see why it cant apply for Persona as well.

Also assuming it is an outlier is just wonky. This is already a tier 2 verse with P2. And imo it is the most natural progression of power throughout the game.

Every JRPG does this. Calling it an outlier is imo baseless.

The only sort of argument I can maybe buy is that Santanael was the one who killed yaldy, so he is the only one who gets the definite value. IE: The Cast Gets Likely/Possibly Low 2-C

But the cast:

A. Tanked attacks from Yaldy before AND after he ascended as Solacis pointed out.

B. Even assuming for some reason he held back, he definitely did not hold back the second time. Assuming he did so twice would be fallacious.

C. The cast also damaged Yaldy in both audio cues and in game.

D. While it is true that Santanael was the one who finally killed Yaldy, that was with a literal magic bullet. So probably in contention of the above, it is not grounds for an "at least" in this key.

IMO: This is what I am for.

The Cast: Likely Low 2-C (For damaging and tanking attacks from Yaldy.)

Yaldy and Ren: Low 2-C

In short, Sera and Solacis make the most sense and I think we shouldn't pull a special pleading just to downplay the cast to At least 4-A.

That would be ridiculous.

Edit: BTW, should add I am not opposed to an 'At least Low 2-C' key for either Yaldy or Santanael. Not gonna push that one.

Although regardless what I think, Sinful Shell should be listed on Ren's profile that it can kill Abstracts, which Yaldy qualifies for.

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

ok updated the thread's name

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

Also considering how Yaldy's vein things let him regen all damage as long as he is fueled by the collective unconscious, wouldn't that basically just be regenerating from a consciousness and therefore low-godly?

 

[SinsofMan]

ok updated the thread's name

Btw, I also propose the following since we are here:

Yaldy should have Type 2 Abstract Existence and Type 4 Concept Manipulation, based on just the descriptions provided.

Ren's Sinful Shell should be listed as the ability to kill Abstracts.

Also, I want my 4-A key back dammit. I want to have Ren ╠Âc╠Âu╠Âr╠Âb╠ ╠Âs╠Ât╠Âo╠Âm╠Âp╠ get matched up with Kirby.

It needs to happens ovo.

Edit: The Regen upgrade seems fine to me.

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

Yaldy should have Type 2 Abstract Existence and Type 4 Concept Manipulation, based on just the descriptions provided.

Yeah I agree

Ren's Sinful Shell should be listed as the ability to kill Abstracts.

That + the ability to negate type 8 as well

Also, I want my 4-A key back dammit.

Can prolly be arranged with a late-game key from Shido's Palace since that's before the Low 2-C stuff happened

 

[Solacis]

Abstract Existence and Conceptual Manip are already on Yaldy's profile. It's been there for nearly a week.

I wonder though if the Twins would scale to Low 2-C PTs. Strictly speaking they kicked Joker's ass even after the Low 2-C stuff had already started.

 

[Solacis]

Also considering how Yaldy's vein things let him regen all damage as long as he is fueled by the collective unconscious, wouldn't that basically just be regenerating from a consciousness and therefore low-godly?

He only had that while connected to the veins while in his HG form, right? GoC Yaldy wouldn't have it, but I agree with putting it in the HG key.

 

[Edwellken]

The twins should scale, yes.

 

[Solacis]

Man, P3 and 4 just got left in the dust. I almost feel bad.

 

[Sera_EX]

No they didn't. When my Persona cosmology blog cgets posted you'll see.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Also considering how Yaldy's vein things let him regen all damage as long as he is fueled by the collective unconscious, wouldn't that basically just be regenerating from a consciousness and therefore low-godly?

He only had that while connected to the veins while in his HG form, right? GoC Yaldy wouldn't have it, but I agree with putting it in the HG key.

That seemed to be because of his dormant state.

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

Also considering how Yaldy's vein things let him regen all damage as long as he is fueled by the collective unconscious, wouldn't that basically just be regenerating from a consciousness and therefore low-godly?

He only had that while connected to the veins while in his HG form, right? GoC Yaldy wouldn't have it, but I agree with putting it in the HG key.

To be fair though he lost those because they had gotten severed during the HG fight, so it's possible that he normally would still have something similar in GoC if that hadn't happened.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yaldy was born from the collective unconscious. He even said that so long as people yearn for him, he will never perish. He indeed has Low Godly regen. This likely may become Mid-Godly due to being a mental/consciousness existence and not an actual physical being but I go into detail about that in the blog.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

^pretty much

 

[SinsofMan]

Abstract Existence and Conceptual Manip are already on Yaldy's profile. It's been there for nearly a week.
I wonder though if the Twins would scale to Low 2-C PTs. Strictly speaking they kicked Joker's ass even after the Low 2-C stuff had already started.

No... It has to be Type 4 and Type 2 for Abstract Existence.

I never said that it wasn't there, just these types need to be on his profile.

Edit: Lol, P4 is my favorite but it is okay. P5 is good anyway.

Edit 2: Twins scale, at least I am pretty sure they do.

 

[SinsofMan]

snip

Whoops, forgot that! I swear we need to do immortality null for all characters that have it, not just P5 but yes I agree.

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

Wait so if the twins are getting buffed then wouldn't the other Velvet Room people get buffed as well, considering how Justine and Caroline are apparently scared of Margaret and Elizabeth and all?

 

[Edwellken]

Yeah.

 

[SinsofMan]

I am unsure regarding this point, I think that would be best saved for another CRT.

I am not opposed and I am aware that Persona does have a shared cosmology + verse. But I want to wait for the blog and another crt before we tackle that point.

Just stick to Persona 5 for now, although mostly everything seems done and dusted.

 

[Solacis]

Yaldy was born from the collective unconscious. He even said that so long as people yearn for him, he will never perish. He indeed has Low Godly regen. This likely may become Mid-Godly due to being a mental/consciousness existence and not an actual physical being but I go into detail about that in the blog.

That just sounds like Type 8 Immortality. He can still get damaged to the point he can't fight back as long as he doesn't die, like in the case of Erebus.

Regen is automatic healing in the middle of the fight.