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Earthbound major revision
- Thread starter TheQuirkyBoy
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@Sprflcrw
Yes, I politely asked about seven staff members now to reply in this thread (which a few actually did). I guess I can try again or ask others that are available. You can do so if you want, it would help a lot.
As I mentioned earlier, I'm going to add something new in the op that comes from the thread that I linked earlier.
Yes, I politely asked about seven staff members now to reply in this thread (which a few actually did). I guess I can try again or ask others that are available. You can do so if you want, it would help a lot.
As I mentioned earlier, I'm going to add something new in the op that comes from the thread that I linked earlier.
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I still disagree with the 7-B reasonings just to note, the association of saying "well final fantasy and other rpgs do this" doesn't suddenly apply it to earthbound. I still need to see why this would scale to their dura when the environmental page directly states how that becomes combat applicable AP.
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@GiverOfThePeace Because the 6th Sanctuary Guardian is a literal God of Thunder, similar to Raide. Furthermore, it does apply to Earthbound. All characters generally trade blows with characters on their tier regardless of PSI or physical strikes. Furthermore, Sanctuary Guardians should inherently be well above the 7-C Nuclear Robots, so it is consistent. Also, all Sanctuary Guardians have Psychic territories in which all expand beyond a town or city. Thunder and Storms case covers the entire country of Dalaam. Though, not as impressive as the final Guardian having a Multi-Continent sized territory.
The territory things are seemingly more like range and hax then they are AP, but this is still a very clear cut case of all PSI attacks scaling to their durability and striking strength. Thunder and Storm actually spams his storm feat and uses it in a way that is 100% combat applicable. Also tanks it himself when deflected by Franklin badge as well as trade blows with the party.
The territory things are seemingly more like range and hax then they are AP, but this is still a very clear cut case of all PSI attacks scaling to their durability and striking strength. Thunder and Storm actually spams his storm feat and uses it in a way that is 100% combat applicable. Also tanks it himself when deflected by Franklin badge as well as trade blows with the party.
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Ok again, why does this scale to his combat applicable AP? Raiden should go under the same revisions. How is that relevant when environmental destruction outright notes: "In practice, this is essentially a non-combat applicable Attack Potency; if a character is able to cause weather phenomena or natural disasters without any reasoning that can support their other statistics being at this level of destructive potency, then they should have trouble or lack the capacity to use these powers to damage characters in comparable tiers."? You'd need to show their AP is scalable to their destructive potency too. We aren't even sure if the nuclear robots are 7-C at the moment, and 8-B makes a lot more sense. The reasoning in the thread you listed quite frankly is not enough of a justifiable reason to keep them at 7-C where there exists far smaller nukes at 8-B and the nuclear robot doesn't reach that level. That sounds like a range feat, not a destructive potency feat, you even admit to it right afterwards being range/hax. PSI attacks scaling =/= a non-combat applicable storm suddenly scaling to it's destructive potency. Again, if you can show thye can also provide it combat applicable wise go right ahead. If I could also get context with how Ness and co. are damaged by said storm that'd be nice.
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Sigh, I literally explained everything on the other thread.
I gave full context why the Nuclear Robots are 7-C. Because the game was made in Japan, it makes far more sense to compare them to nukes Japan's familiar with; which would be the 7-C Nukes. And actually, the smallest nukes are 8-A; 8-B is for non-nuclear missiles, but 7-C is still the accepted end. It's been discussed several times.
Raiden's feat was also discussed to be 100% combat applicable. He performs storm feats using martial arts, and can literally transform himself into a storm. As well as trade blows with Shao Kahn and Liu Kang, ect. Thunder and Storm is also a literal storm feat. Also, the Attack Potency page does clearly state that you don't have to have destruction in order to qualify for AP. If Storms feats are casually caused and dispersed through physical means, or even caused by characters sneezing, burping, farting, or breathing for example, it scales to all statistics.
Ainz Ooal Gow is also a character with durability comparable to his storm feats. That's another thing, their PSI shields have similar levels of energy as their PSI attacks. And again, Thunder and Storm's storm feats are 100% combat applicable; he literally uses it to attack the party and can be dispersed through physical means by the party. It also happens in the actual game.
And yes, I know the supposedly Tier 6 stuff is range and hax, but Thunder and Storms Low 7-B storms are still easily Tier feats.
I gave full context why the Nuclear Robots are 7-C. Because the game was made in Japan, it makes far more sense to compare them to nukes Japan's familiar with; which would be the 7-C Nukes. And actually, the smallest nukes are 8-A; 8-B is for non-nuclear missiles, but 7-C is still the accepted end. It's been discussed several times.
Raiden's feat was also discussed to be 100% combat applicable. He performs storm feats using martial arts, and can literally transform himself into a storm. As well as trade blows with Shao Kahn and Liu Kang, ect. Thunder and Storm is also a literal storm feat. Also, the Attack Potency page does clearly state that you don't have to have destruction in order to qualify for AP. If Storms feats are casually caused and dispersed through physical means, or even caused by characters sneezing, burping, farting, or breathing for example, it scales to all statistics.
Ainz Ooal Gow is also a character with durability comparable to his storm feats. That's another thing, their PSI shields have similar levels of energy as their PSI attacks. And again, Thunder and Storm's storm feats are 100% combat applicable; he literally uses it to attack the party and can be dispersed through physical means by the party. It also happens in the actual game.
And yes, I know the supposedly Tier 6 stuff is range and hax, but Thunder and Storms Low 7-B storms are still easily Tier feats.
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Being made in japan wouldn't suddenly apply to "oh the nuke is based off big boy", that's a complete assumption with literally no single fact to back it up other then "they live in japan". In the previous discussion one of the nuclear missles noted was 8-B.
So why in anyway is that comparable to this matter when they're not doing the storm through physical means? I never stated you needed to have destruction in order to qualify for AP, that never was even a basis of my agrument, my entire point was it wasn't combat appplicable AP and I'd need more reason then that for why it'd scale to durability. How is their storm feat casual in the least bit? They literally need to take deep breaths in between turns. If you wasn't referring to them and the system in general, can you show at all where this is stated?
Ainz has other feats listed there that back up his durability then soley a storm feat. Hell, the main reasoning for his tier 6 tiering is due to him freezing over a lake.
Where did you get he dispersed it from? The storm feat doesn't even attack them, it just numbs the user. I don't see either where this scales to their PSI either, is the storm ever remotely stated what level of PSI it is or if it is PSI? I'm assuming it's PSI since their other attacks are PSI based.
So why in anyway is that comparable to this matter when they're not doing the storm through physical means? I never stated you needed to have destruction in order to qualify for AP, that never was even a basis of my agrument, my entire point was it wasn't combat appplicable AP and I'd need more reason then that for why it'd scale to durability. How is their storm feat casual in the least bit? They literally need to take deep breaths in between turns. If you wasn't referring to them and the system in general, can you show at all where this is stated?
Ainz has other feats listed there that back up his durability then soley a storm feat. Hell, the main reasoning for his tier 6 tiering is due to him freezing over a lake.
Where did you get he dispersed it from? The storm feat doesn't even attack them, it just numbs the user. I don't see either where this scales to their PSI either, is the storm ever remotely stated what level of PSI it is or if it is PSI? I'm assuming it's PSI since their other attacks are PSI based.
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Actually, it is consistent with our standards here to use the country of origin as a background. We use a country's speed limit as the velocity of a speeding car in a lot of our calcs for example. And it was again discussed multiple times that 7-C was the most reasonable for nuclear robots. And again, that "8-B missile" was a non-nuclear missile.
Also, you keep saying "It's not combat applicable because I say so" without actually explaining scientific details. "Taking breath in between turns" doesn't mean it isn't casual; it's no suicide technique or anything remotely close to that. Also, the fact they they are breathing does imply it requires some notable demonstration of true power to perform it. Proving how more solid the feat is. It's stated in the guidebooks that they cause devastating storms also. There were links and sources to it on the other thread.
Earthbound also has other back up feats; Krakens do cause At least Multi-City Block level+ tornados and can trigger Tsunamis. Master Belch can produce a plague that covered a couple towns and an entire mountain.
Thunder and Cloud themself, is a literal living storm cloud. And Ness can take it out with a baseball bat; which in turn translates to him dispersing a storm cloud with a baseball bat. So in other words, it does qualify as physical dispersing a storm cloud. Also, again, it's super special unfair treatment to not scale physical attacks and PIS to each other when literally every other JRPG does that with physical attacks and magic. And it's for the same reasons, that they trade blows with each other, with the same enemies, does similar levels of damage ect. Also, their attack is called Crashing Boom Bang Attack; just a note.
Going to RL work for now.
Also, you keep saying "It's not combat applicable because I say so" without actually explaining scientific details. "Taking breath in between turns" doesn't mean it isn't casual; it's no suicide technique or anything remotely close to that. Also, the fact they they are breathing does imply it requires some notable demonstration of true power to perform it. Proving how more solid the feat is. It's stated in the guidebooks that they cause devastating storms also. There were links and sources to it on the other thread.
Earthbound also has other back up feats; Krakens do cause At least Multi-City Block level+ tornados and can trigger Tsunamis. Master Belch can produce a plague that covered a couple towns and an entire mountain.
Thunder and Cloud themself, is a literal living storm cloud. And Ness can take it out with a baseball bat; which in turn translates to him dispersing a storm cloud with a baseball bat. So in other words, it does qualify as physical dispersing a storm cloud. Also, again, it's super special unfair treatment to not scale physical attacks and PIS to each other when literally every other JRPG does that with physical attacks and magic. And it's for the same reasons, that they trade blows with each other, with the same enemies, does similar levels of damage ect. Also, their attack is called Crashing Boom Bang Attack; just a note.
Going to RL work for now.
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Can I see where? A country's speed limit is current history, not old history that it doesn't seem is being referenced in the least bit here. That's two completely different scenarios. It being discussed by people that aren't objective sources don't mean much. Alright show proof for it being non-nuclear please.
I never said that in the least bit, you're just attempting to interpret my argument that way. I linked the server several times. Why would it need to be a suicide technqiue to not be casual? It takes a great amount of effort for them to do it if they're out of breath for an entire turn after doing said attack. Hax can do the same thing, that wouldn't suddenly prove the feat scales to duraility now. Mana draining is a thing.
8-A+ =/= Low 7-B so I don't know how that backs it up, the cast also has trouble against said Kraken. Again, range.
Is there anything officially stating it's a literal living storm cloud or are you interpreting it as such? That's a huge assumption based off him fighting a storm cloud. It also states he made them tame, not dispersed them if we want to be technical. All that would imply is giygas mind r@ped a literal storm cloud and Ness removed said mind r@pe like he does with other enemies. Ness never really "kills" anyone he fights. Then either downgrade those other JRPGs/they have legitimate reason to it. I don't see a legitimate reason here. Crashing Boom Bang Attack is literally referenced as PSI Thunder on the wikia and iirc several guides, thunder is not inherently Low 7-B on it's own and that's the only real attack they use to harm Ness and co. with.
Alright.
I never said that in the least bit, you're just attempting to interpret my argument that way. I linked the server several times. Why would it need to be a suicide technqiue to not be casual? It takes a great amount of effort for them to do it if they're out of breath for an entire turn after doing said attack. Hax can do the same thing, that wouldn't suddenly prove the feat scales to duraility now. Mana draining is a thing.
8-A+ =/= Low 7-B so I don't know how that backs it up, the cast also has trouble against said Kraken. Again, range.
Is there anything officially stating it's a literal living storm cloud or are you interpreting it as such? That's a huge assumption based off him fighting a storm cloud. It also states he made them tame, not dispersed them if we want to be technical. All that would imply is giygas mind r@ped a literal storm cloud and Ness removed said mind r@pe like he does with other enemies. Ness never really "kills" anyone he fights. Then either downgrade those other JRPGs/they have legitimate reason to it. I don't see a legitimate reason here. Crashing Boom Bang Attack is literally referenced as PSI Thunder on the wikia and iirc several guides, thunder is not inherently Low 7-B on it's own and that's the only real attack they use to harm Ness and co. with.
Alright.
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For starters, it's generally agreed by some supporters and staff, though there's a few disagreements. But the 7-C characters are proposed to be upgraded to Low 7-B scaling from this calc. The reasons against it are generally knit picks as they're consistent with other feats and said feat would be literally impossible unless their PSI powers were on that level or above. So it does tie in with the standards of other JRPG verses and MLP among other things.
There's also the new character Truth mentioned in the OP, as well as numerous other hax. Though, I did get lost. But the parts I do agree with are the mid tiers being upgraded as well as the abilities Dargoo Faust accepted. I'd still like to hear more input from someone like DarkAnine though. Transformation via bag of dragonite, Summoning via Honey Flower, statistics amplification via offense and defense spray, explosion manipulation with various bombs and pencil rockets. Forget if there was anything else approved though.
There's also the new character Truth mentioned in the OP, as well as numerous other hax. Though, I did get lost. But the parts I do agree with are the mid tiers being upgraded as well as the abilities Dargoo Faust accepted. I'd still like to hear more input from someone like DarkAnine though. Transformation via bag of dragonite, Summoning via Honey Flower, statistics amplification via offense and defense spray, explosion manipulation with various bombs and pencil rockets. Forget if there was anything else approved though.
GreyFang82
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So is that a no on the minor time stop resist?
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I'm unsure where that part came from and I think a few people said it was a game mechanic.
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Hopefully that helpsGreyFang82 said:
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If somebody writes a TLDR summary of the conclusions so far and then asks various staff members to comment here, we could actually reach a conclusion. Otherwise we are nearing the point when this discussion should be closed for unnecessarily wasting all of our time.
Here are some of the less frequently asked staff members that you can select from to ask to give input:
Ryukama
Promestein
SomebodyData
Darkanine
Reppuzan
Dragonmasterxyz
Celestial Pegasus
Dark649
Soldier Blue
Monarch Laciel
Kaltias
Assaltwaffle
Saikou The Lewd King
Kepekley23
Antoniofer
Gemmysaur
PaChi2
Ultima Reality
AKM Sama
Dargoo Faust
MrKingOfNegativity
Theglassman12
Wokistan
Here are some of the less frequently asked staff members that you can select from to ask to give input:
Ryukama
Promestein
SomebodyData
Darkanine
Reppuzan
Dragonmasterxyz
Celestial Pegasus
Dark649
Soldier Blue
Monarch Laciel
Kaltias
Assaltwaffle
Saikou The Lewd King
Kepekley23
Antoniofer
Gemmysaur
PaChi2
Ultima Reality
AKM Sama
Dargoo Faust
MrKingOfNegativity
Theglassman12
Wokistan
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I suppose minor resistance to time stop seems reasonable then. And I'll try to make a quick summary of some of the accepted stuff to a few staff members; mainly and those familiar with the game.
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Dark you can't call it nitpicks when several of the things I've noted are big, and I already established the problem with "they're consistent". Either refute my argumentation or don't result to pettyness of ignoring my refute and resulting to "oh the refutations are nitpicks and don't get it".
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@GiverofThePeace, at this point, it's probably better to take it up to my wall as to not clutter this thread further. Matthew Schroeder said it best that people are starting to exaggerate with the "Environmental destruction" policies. The main facts are, one it still requires multiple Megatons of energy in order to perform at bare minimum in the first place; two, other PSI attacks such as Freeze Omega, Rockin Gamma, and Starstorm Omega require more PP to perform; implying there's even more energy being generated in those attacks. So in other words, all top tier PSI techniques should be Low 7-B or above however you look at it. And physical attacks still do similar levels of damage to the same enemies so that scales too.
Anyway, if you want to continue that discussion further, please move to my wall.
General Summary so far: It was generally accepted that the mid tiers can be upgraded to Low 7-B scaling from the 6th Sanctuary Guardian, Thunder and Storm who can do this. Other abilities included Transformation via bag of dragonite, Summoning via Honey Flower, Statistics Amplification via offense and defense spray, Explosion Manipulation with various bombs and pencil rockets, and minor resistance to Time Stop; there was an ability that indicated time stop during attack which Ness and party can briefly move to dodge. But then there are other abilities many have deemed iffy.
The OP also mentions some more quick summaries closer to the bottom, such as Low 2-C characters having other abilities characters who are "One with the universe" have, and a new god tier named "Truth of the Universe."
Anyway, if you want to continue that discussion further, please move to my wall.
General Summary so far: It was generally accepted that the mid tiers can be upgraded to Low 7-B scaling from the 6th Sanctuary Guardian, Thunder and Storm who can do this. Other abilities included Transformation via bag of dragonite, Summoning via Honey Flower, Statistics Amplification via offense and defense spray, Explosion Manipulation with various bombs and pencil rockets, and minor resistance to Time Stop; there was an ability that indicated time stop during attack which Ness and party can briefly move to dodge. But then there are other abilities many have deemed iffy.
The OP also mentions some more quick summaries closer to the bottom, such as Low 2-C characters having other abilities characters who are "One with the universe" have, and a new god tier named "Truth of the Universe."
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@Dark
Thank you for handling this CRT, much appreciated. Do we still need more staff inputs?
I could probably ask again for input or ask new staff with the summary that's given to us.
Thank you for handling this CRT, much appreciated. Do we still need more staff inputs?
I could probably ask again for input or ask new staff with the summary that's given to us.
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Alright then, that is fine by me.
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I could, but it seems most of the profiles are locked. Ninte, Ana (Earthbound), Ness, Pokey Minch, Starman (Earthbound), Lucas (Earthbound), Kumatora, and Masked Ma would all need their profiles unlocked.
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I have updated the profiles accordingly.
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Okay, so why is minor resistance to time stop being added? I thought we decided it was a game mechanic. By the way, while I do agree with the Truth of the Universe stuff, it's clear that Mother 3 isn't in another timeline or anything, and I don't think it should be above the Dark Dragon.
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I merely updated the stuff that were generally accepted; some of those other things I vaguely heard needed links or a bit more input as Dargoo Faust mentioned. It was only Ness and Jeff that resisted Dali's Clock. Was there another enemy that had that ability and used it against Poo or Paula? If so, please link it. @Sptflcrw Reason it's still minor resistance is that they can still dodge while time is stopped, which is limited but still minor resistance.
And as for equipment resistances, I think they're good; at least some of the elemental ones, but I think some were thought to be game mechanics. I think resistance to the various elements via pendants is fine, but resistance to OHK is considered a game mechanic. And Dargoo wanted some links to show evidence. And Dargoo seemed skeptical about the new ability additions for Giygas.
And as for equipment resistances, I think they're good; at least some of the elemental ones, but I think some were thought to be game mechanics. I think resistance to the various elements via pendants is fine, but resistance to OHK is considered a game mechanic. And Dargoo wanted some links to show evidence. And Dargoo seemed skeptical about the new ability additions for Giygas.
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@Dark
Look back at "Minor Resistance to Time stop"; there are links that said that the Dali's Clock also appeared in Dungen Man and not just in Moonside, so that would cover Paula and Poo. OHK is a part of PK Flash (which, with the equipment on, it is able to resist that), I don't see why it is considered "game mechanics"; especially when these equipments are said to be everyday items but with an addition to it.
Look above for links on Giygas, Items, and Truth of The Universe (the wall of text basically, it's long but worth it)
@Sptflcrw
The Dark Dragon can only reset/or destroy one universe, Truth is above that. Yeah, it does take place some unknown amount of years after Earthbound (there are other existing future that I mentioned tho), but that doesn't mean it's not 2-C.
Look back at "Minor Resistance to Time stop"; there are links that said that the Dali's Clock also appeared in Dungen Man and not just in Moonside, so that would cover Paula and Poo. OHK is a part of PK Flash (which, with the equipment on, it is able to resist that), I don't see why it is considered "game mechanics"; especially when these equipments are said to be everyday items but with an addition to it.
Look above for links on Giygas, Items, and Truth of The Universe (the wall of text basically, it's long but worth it)
@Sptflcrw
The Dark Dragon can only reset/or destroy one universe, Truth is above that. Yeah, it does take place some unknown amount of years after Earthbound (there are other existing future that I mentioned tho), but that doesn't mean it's not 2-C.
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OHK in general is often considered NLF unless there's legitimate death manipulation involved. A giant flash of pure light shouldn't normally cause one hit death; though it's possible for surprise intense lights to cause blindness, and head seizures, and perhaps make people faint. It's more so knocking them unconscious rather than killing them. So it would be resistance to Bright Light if anything. And I'm a bit too tied up to read the full paragraph for Giygas and Truth stuff, but I guess I can add the time stop resistance to Paula and Poo's profile.
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- #240
The description of PK Flash says it would sometimes "destroy the enemy in a signal strike" , so it is still possible but I have my doubts since the game used to be rated K-A; and if that's the case, then it should be revised.
And ok, read it when you have time.
And ok, read it when you have time.
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