Dragonball Heroes and Xeno Revision

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Hello All!

I am just bringing this slight issue to light. Low 1-C in Dragonball Xeno and Heroes is based on Low 1-C reasoning in the Dragonball Anime. This is a problem because the reasonings don't match up to their respective canons.

In the anime, the supporting evidence for the hypertimeline is that the Room of Time creates time for the universe. (A hypertimeline is needed to contain all these separate and distinct timelines. And presumably each universe has it's own time room). However, in Heroes and Xeno, TokiToki is the singular source of all time. TokiToki cannot be the source of time while also getting his Low 1-C rating from the time rooms being the source of time for the universes. Of course, Toki Toki doesn't exist in the anime, so this only affects Xeno and Heroes series.

I think the supporters of the verse need to change the explanations for Xeno and Heroes and provide other evidence that doesn't contradict the Xeno and Heroes canon.

TL;DR: The existence of TokiToki retcons the time room being the source of time for the universe.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Neutral for now

 

[Vietthai96]

it is midnight in my country so i need to sleep now, but literally

1. Every pieces of Dragon Ball media is canon to DBH multiverse, which including Toei Z, GT, Super, etc....

2. TokiToki is the singular source of all time isn't really a debunk, since time room source of all time for singular universe, a macrocosm, Tokitoki is the time of the entire multiverse. And literally Tokitoki is responsible for all dimensions, which mean time room is a part of his responsibility, his power which is the source of all time, isn't contradict and debunk anything

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

2. TokiToki is the singular source of all time isn't really a debunk, since time room source of all time for singular universe, a macrocosm, Tokitoki is the time of the entire multiverse. And literally Tokitoki is responsible for all dimensions, which mean time room is a part of his responsibility, his power which is the source of all time, isn't contradict and debunk anything

Here it is said that a universe's time is stuffed inside TokiToki's egg. This means that TokiToki is the source of time for universes as well as the multiverse.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

Here it is said that a universe's time is stuffed inside TokiToki's egg. This means that TokiToki is the source of time for universes as well as the multiverse.

“Tokitoki is the time of the entire multiverse. And literally Tokitoki is responsible for all dimensions, which mean time room is a part of his responsibility, his power which is the source of all time”

I mean, what @Vietthai96 said already answer this.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

“Tokitoki is the time of the entire multiverse. And literally Tokitoki is responsible for all dimensions, which mean time room is a part of his responsibility, his power which is the source of all time”

I mean, what @Vietthai96 said already answer this.

Here is another scan that says TokiToki's eggs hold all the time for a universe.



And here is a video that says TokiToki's egg contains all the time for the universe.



This directly contradicts the statement in the anime that says the Time Room creates time.

https://i.ibb.co/2ty7KG6/tumblr-2ff8d21dcb3fe63d40be1d50df8583e4-3607709e-1280.jpg

 

[TheTenno07]

This does not make the time for the Multiverse and for the universes the same in heroes or in the XenoVerse, they just have the same creator. Being the anime of z, gt, and super valid for heroes and xenoverse We have ultra-explicit evidence as is that gives an individual space-time for each section of the universe It would make no difference to a time separator from the timeline and universes.

 

[Vietthai96]

i don't understand what you trying to nitpicking here, Tokitoki being source of time isn't a contradiction, literally everything is created by him, time room which is the source of time of universe being a part of him, nothing contradict at all.

Also, literally, the destruction of macrocosm or even a timeline, which including time room, did not affect Tokitoki or the time of the entire multiverse at all, while Tokitoki dead destroy time of all timelines, do you see the differences???, i already said, time room is the source of time for a singular macrocosm while tokitoki is time of the entire multiverse, time room is completely lower than tokitoki, and being a part from his power. Literally, you just trying to nitpicking a certain "universe's time" word in some statements trying to prove your point, nothing here contradict at all.

And time room isn't the main argument for Low 1-C hypertimeline at all

Anyway i need to sleep, midnight already, i have work tomorrow

 

[TheTenno07]

Fun fact, Also the room that creates time for the universe is not the only evidence we have for the hypertimeline in the end if what you say is correct we would still have other evidence that gives Low 1-C to XenoVerse and heroes

 

[Vietthai96]

here is a video that says TokiToki's egg contains all the time for the universe.



This directly contradicts the statement in the anime that says the Time Room creates time.

also you take this video out of contexts, literally after the statement says TokiToki's egg contains all the time for the universe, Old kai said the egg hatch the entirely new timeline, so.................................

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

time room which is the source of time of universe being a part of him

If this is the case, then post the scans and make them relevant changes on the xeno and heroes pages. Right now, the pages present contradicting information. Tokitoki and the time room cannot both be the source of time. If there is a connection between the two then just make it clear.

also you take this video out of contexts, literally after the statement says TokiToki's egg contains all the time for the universe, Old kai said the egg hatch the entirely new timeline, so.................................

I don't understand this statement as timeline and universe can be used interchangeably. Especially in a franchise like dragon ball where universe can refer to the mortal world or the entire macrocosm.

Fun fact, Also the room that creates time for the universe is not the only evidence we have for the hypertimeline in the end if what you say is correct we would still have other evidence that gives Low 1-C to XenoVerse and heroes

That's perfectly fine. The profiles just need to be adjusted to reflect this difference. It is just that right now, the profiles have a glaring contradiction. TokiToki's page says he's the source of time and then links to the time room being stated to being the source of time.

 

[TheTenno07]

I don't understand this statement as timeline and universe can be used interchangeably. Especially in a franchise like dragon ball where universe can refer to the mortal world or the entire macrocosm.

This is not the case in Dragon Ball. timeline and universe are 2 totally different things, with universe you mean the mortal realm or one of the 12 universes. And timeline is concerned To the superior time axis that encompasses the universes.
What can be taken as similar is "parallel universe" and timeline, the word universe alone is another term.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This is not the case in Dragon Ball. timeline and universe are 2 totally different things, with universe you mean the mortal realm or one of the 12 universes. And timeline is concerned To the superior time axis that encompasses the universes.
What can be taken as similar is "parallel universe" and timeline, the word universe alone is another term.

The scan from Xenoverse uses timeline and universe interchangeablly. Even if one wans to be this specific about the usage terms, it doesn’t erase that the scans directly says both universe’s time and timelines come from TokiToki’s power.

 

[Vietthai96]

If this is the case, then post the scans and make them relevant changes on the xeno and heroes pages. Right now, the pages present contradicting information. Tokitoki and the time room cannot both be the source of time. If there is a connection between the two then just make it clear.

Sigh, i already explained above, the scans aren't contradicting each others, as time room is the source of time for a singular universe while tokitoki is time for the entire multiverse, and i already posted scan about Tokitoki responsible for all thing all dimensions, all realm, etc..., which including the time room. And also multiple scans on profiles on how tokitoki power control everything, all dimensions

I don't understand this statement as timeline and universe can be used interchangeably. Especially in a franchise like dragon ball where universe can refer to the mortal world or the entire macrocosm.

I literally don't understand your arguments, what contradict here??, universe's time is a lower time, part of higher time of the timeline, Tokitoki create time for the entire multiverse, and a singular universe being a part of multiverse, so saying him is source for universe's time isn't wrong either, since universe's time is a part of a higher time of timeline. Plus literally scan i posted in my first reply stated Tokitoki responsible for all dimensions, which include time room.

No offend, but the entire argument is based on nitpicking certain words from statements while ignore the rest, the contexts. You just saw one scan talking about Time Room being source of universe's time, and another scan with Tokitoki being source of universe's time and bam, they contradicting each other while ignoring the rest of the contexts and other statements

That's perfectly fine. The profiles just need to be adjusted to reflect this difference. It is just that right now, the profiles have a glaring contradiction. TokiToki's page says he's the source of time and then links to the time room being stated to being the source of time

Wut??, the profile link to the entire hypertimeline blog, which the time room is part of that blog, not directly link to time room, also i already address the contradicting issue you spoke off

Anyway, back to work

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I will have to agree with Vietthai here

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Sigh, i already explained above, the scans aren't contradicting each others, as time room is the source of time for a singular universe while tokitoki is time for the entire multiverse, and i already posted scan about Tokitoki responsible for all thing all dimensions, all realm, etc..., which including the time room. And also multiple scans on profiles on how tokitoki power control everything, all dimensions

This argument, no matter how many times you repeat it, doesn’t work when I posted several scans and video evidence from the media that says directly that TokiToki is the source of time for the universe.

You are ignoring what is written on paper. What you are suggesting makes no sense, and is orwelian.

“When the media says universe they actually mean the multiverse and not the actual universe; when they say timeline, they mean the hypertimeline, and not the actual timelines that exist within the hypertimeline.”

I will have to agree with Vietthai here

You agree that when several sources of the material use the word universe, they are not actually referring to any universe?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

And I also would like to point out that the argument, “tokiroki is responsible for the timeroom” means that tokitoki is also responsible for the time the timeroom creates, and all the timerooms therefore have the same source of time.

And the time room is not even a dimension. Its a location inside LookOut. Can we also get scans saying it is a separate dimension like the RoSaT?

 

[Vietthai96]

This argument, no matter how many times you repeat it, doesn’t work when I posted several scans and video evidence from the media that says directly that TokiToki is the source of time for the universe.

funny is, my argument based on what the verse told us, so literally you saying my argument isn't work isn't really a way to counter my argument. I will repeat for the last time, saying Tokitoki the source of universe's time isn't contradicting, literally he is the source of time for everything, universe include

You are ignoring what is written on paper. What you are suggesting makes no sense, and is orwelian.

Literally, my argument is based on what written on the paper, saying i ignore the paper is too funny ngl, i literally address them in my argument, it make sense or not to you, is the last of my concern

And I also would like to point out that the argument, “tokiroki is responsible for the timeroom” means that tokitoki is also responsible for the time the timeroom creates, and all the timerooms therefore have the same source of time.

?????????

And the time room is not even a dimension. Its a location inside LookOut. Can we also get scans saying it is a separate dimension like the RoSaT?

Huh??, you answer the question youself you know, Time Room is inside the Look Out, and the Look Out is literally a part of Living Universe, which is an entire dimension, Tokitoko responsible for all dimensions, everything in the verse

Anyway again, the basis of your arguments is just trying to clinging on some scans saying tokitoki is source of universe's time, i already explained on why they aren't contradiction, you have yet to counter my argument aside from: but the scans say this and that, your argument do not work. From my experience with debating with you, you always nitpicking words in scans to defend your argument while not even providing actual contexts, and you not gonna change your mind so unless you going to bring something new to the table, i will stop from engaging further with you to not clogging the thread

And beside time room isn't even the main evidence for Low 1-C hypertimeline so

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

funny is, my argument based on what the verse told us, so literally you saying my argument isn't work isn't really a way to counter my argument. I will repeat for the last time, saying Tokitoki the source of universe's time isn't contradicting, literally he is the source of time for everything, universe include

If Tokitoki the source of the universe’s time, as we both agree, then the time room is not the source for time for the universe in Xeno and Heroes.

This is the contradiction. They cannot both be regarded as the source.

And beside time room isn't even the main evidence for Low 1-C hypertimeline so

Then there should be no problem with updating the pages so this glaring contradiction should be removed and the explanation should be rewritten.

 

[Vietthai96]

If Tokitoki the source of the universe’s time, as we both agree, then the time room is not the source for time for the universe in Xeno and Heroes.

This is the contradiction. They cannot both be regarded as the source.

You again pratically ignored what i said, Tokitoki himself is the source of time for the entire multiverse, it isn't contradicting with the Time Room since Time Room is only for a singular universe. And I already said, Time Room is a part of what Tokitoki created

Then there should be no problem with updating the pages so this glaring contradiction should be removed and the explanation should be rewritten

What need to be written??, Time Room is just a small part of hypertimeline blog, you made it like Time Room is everything of the blog while it isn't??

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You again pratically ignored what i said, Tokitoki himself is the source of time for the entire multiverse, it isn't contradicting with the Time Room since Time Room is only for a singular universe. And I already said, Time Room is a part of what Tokitoki created

This argument is built on the assumption that the timeroom wasn’t created after the initial creation of the universe and the timeline.

Just because it exists in the universe doesn’t mean it is apart of what toki toki created. This is like saying Capsule corp is apart of what toki toki creayed because it exists in the universe.

The blog itself says the timeroom is responsible for the time of the entire microcosm. It’s not just a singular universe. Also again, as you stated, TokiToki is the source of time for the universes. You are now flip flopping.

I should also mention that the description and decor of the time room changes from Dragonball to Dragonball Z. It is stated to be a room where the past, present, and future mix. (Granted this is the dub, so anyone with sub of the japanese, please confirm if this is also the case).

So even in the anime, we have the time room being retconned.

Do you have any evidence that it still functions the same way it does in Dragonball in Xeno and Heroes?

And before you claim, “everything is canon” keep in mind the game changes elements of the canon for its story, and there are also contradicting things from multiple canons.

What need to be written??, Time Room is just a small part of hypertimeline blog, you made it like Time Room is everything of the blog while it isn't??

The blog was written for Dragon Ball Super in mind, and doesn’t work for Xeno and Heroes given the contradictions with tokitoki. A simple section explaining how it works for Xeno and Heroes will suffice.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

You agree that when several sources of the material use the word universe, they are not actually referring to any universe?

Considering that we already have statements regarding TokiToki creating Time on a Multiversal level, i honestly don´t see why they would be referring only to the main universe and not things like the Hypertimeline

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Vietthai makes the most sense to me.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Considering that we already have statements regarding TokiToki creating Time on a Multiversal level, i honestly don´t see why they would be referring only to the main universe and not things like the Hypertimeline

From the direct statements, TokiToki creates time for the multiverse, universe, and timelines. There is no reason to believe the source material isn’t refering to universes when they say universe.

To add, TokiToki is the source of all time. Claiming that he is not the direct source of time for individual universes doesn’t align with what’s been written and shown.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

should also mention that the description and decor of the time room changes from Dragonball to Dragonball Z. It is stated to be a room where the past, present, and future mix. (Granted this is the dub, so anyone with sub of the japanese, please confirm if this is also the case).

So even in the anime, we have the time room being retconned.

That’s wrong, even Chozenshuu 4 you can see they are different

 

[OblivionCiffer2202]

Hello All!

I am just bringing this slight issue to light. Low 1-C in Dragonball Xeno and Heroes is based on Low 1-C reasoning in the Dragonball Anime. This is a problem because the reasonings don't match up to their respective canons.

In the anime, the supporting evidence for the hypertimeline is that the Room of Time creates time for the universe. (A hypertimeline is needed to contain all these separate and distinct timelines. And presumably each universe has it's own time room). However, in Heroes and Xeno, TokiToki is the singular source of all time. TokiToki cannot be the source of time while also getting his Low 1-C rating from the time rooms being the source of time for the universes. Of course, Toki Toki doesn't exist in the anime, so this only affects Xeno and Heroes series.

I think the supporters of the verse need to change the explanations for Xeno and Heroes and provide other evidence that doesn't contradict the Xeno and Heroes canon.

1.- The Hall of Time that is presented to us in the anime, CREATES the time in the Living Universe, something that we are informed in the anime itself, which confirms that it is attended by its own temporal dimension, it is something that is evidenced, because Goku in the anime can travel to the past.

Here we are told that it creates all the past, present and future:



Here we are told that it can send you back in time:



Goku travels to the past:



In the Daizenshū they explain its function to us:



2.- In the anime of DBS we are shown that the destruction of the Macrocosms, are irrelevant for the Timeline, which shows us that the Hall of Time is not the space-time axis of the Multiverse itself.

3.- And as @Vietthai96 said in DBH, everything is canon, therefore, it is a cosmology composed of everything, therefore all the explanation of the Daizenshū, Chozenshū, etc. It is valid to use it in DBH, as long as in the canon it is not so.

4.- I believe that this point is superfluous (I think). The Hall of Time is NOT the reason why we have Hyper Time Line in DB, and as you know neither in DBH, I do not understand what is the mania of not wanting to understand that. And try to use Toki Toki as an argument against it, when it is made clear that it is the Multiversal Abstraction of ALL Time, that is why if he dies the Multiverse also perishes.

It is a statement that makes it clear to us:



Also here:

https://imgur.com/a/NGE7wOd

So no, no changes or rewrites need to be made to explain the HyperTime Line.

PD: A big thank you to @ProfectusInfinity for the scans.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

From the direct statements, TokiToki creates time for the multiverse, universe, and timelines. There is no reason to believe the source material isn’t refering to universes when they say universe.

To add, TokiToki is the source of all time. Claiming that he is not the direct source of time for individual universes doesn’t align with what’s been written and shown.

Sigh, i already explained above, the scans aren't contradicting each others, as time room is the source of time for a singular universe while tokitoki is time for the entire multiverse, and i already posted scan about Tokitoki responsible for all thing all dimensions, all realm, etc..., which including the time room. And also multiple scans on profiles on how tokitoki power control everything, all dimensions



I literally don't understand your arguments, what contradict here??, universe's time is a lower time, part of higher time of the timeline, Tokitoki create time for the entire multiverse, and a singular universe being a part of multiverse, so saying him is source for universe's time isn't wrong either, since universe's time is a part of a higher time of timeline. Plus literally scan i posted in my first reply stated Tokitoki responsible for all dimensions, which include time room.

No offend, but the entire argument is based on nitpicking certain words from statements while ignore the rest, the contexts. You just saw one scan talking about Time Room being source of universe's time, and another scan with Tokitoki being source of universe's time and bam, they contradicting each other while ignoring the rest of the contexts and other statements

Vietthai pretty much already addressed your claims, the fact that everything is canon to DB games and there’s a reasonable explanation. You’re fishing for a contradiction when there’s a pretty reasonable explanation. The Time room being responsible for the time in a single universe does not contradict Toki-Toki being the one who creates and is responsible for the existence of it, as he’s the one who is responsible for all dimensions and creates timelines that contain universes within it.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Yeah toki toki is just the big dawg here(bird to be precise) so disagree

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The Time room being responsible for the time in a single universe does not contradict Toki-Toki being the one who creates and is responsible for the existence of it, as he’s the one who is responsible for all dimensions and creates timelines that contain universes within it.

There is no evidence that toki toki created the time room or that the time room was created upon the creation of the universe. It is literally just a room in the lookout that has canonically changed appearance and description: from a room where the past, present, and future are created in dragonball, to a room where the past, present, and future overlap in dragon ball z.

 

[Killerdrone123]

There is no evidence that toki toki created the time room or that the time room was created upon the creation of the universe. It is literally just a room in the lookout that has canonically changed appearance and description: from a room where the past, present, and future are created in dragonball, to a room where the past, present, and future overlap in dragon ball z.

No evidence



Literally the first thing which vieth showed was how he is responsible for existence of all dimensions in db and toki toki creates the entire multiverse for dbh

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No evidence



Literally the first thing which vieth showed was how he is responsible for existence of all dimensions in db and toki toki creates the entire multiverse for dbh

1. The time room is not a dimension
2. This is like saying TokiToki is responsible for the capsule corp because it exists in the universe his power created.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

There is no evidence that toki toki created the time room or that the time room was created upon the creation of the universe. It is literally just a room in the lookout that has canonically changed appearance and description: from a room where the past, present, and future are created in dragonball, to a room where the past, present, and future overlap in dragon ball z.

If Toki-Toki created the timeline, it would include the time room. It’s like saying toki-toki creating the timeline wouldn’t include the kaioshin realm or afterlife. Like what?

Also, you’re confusing the Pendulm room for the time room. Profectus made a blog differentiating the two. It’s never stated the past present and future intersect in the time room.

 

[Killerdrone123]

1. The time room is not a dimension
2. This is like saying TokiToki is responsible doe the capsule corp because it exists in the universe his power created.

It is you are confusing it for the pendulum room

Brother toki toki creates the entire multiverse that includes everything or every cosmological aspects there is for db

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

If Toki-Toki created the timeline, it would include the time room. It’s like saying toki-toki creating the timeline wouldn’t include the kaioshin realm or afterlife. Like what?

Also, you’re confusing the Pendulm room for the time room. Profectus made a blog differentiating the two. It’s never stated the past present and future intersect in the time room.

The time room again is not a dimension. It is literally just a room in the Look Out. The afterlife and Kaioshin realms are actual dimensions.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Brother toki toki creates the entire multiverse that includes everything or every cosmological aspects there is for db

Once again, the Time Room is not a cosmological aspect. It is just a room that’s built into a man made structure.

Also, you’re confusing the Pendulm room for the time room. Profectus made a blog differentiating the two. It’s never stated the past present and future intersect in the time room.

if you want to argue the pendulum room and the time room are different then that’s fine. I am not going to get caught up on that. What i said about the time room still stands. It is not a dimension.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The time room again is not a dimension. It is literally just a room in the Look Out. The afterlife and Kaioshin realms are actual dimensions.

Once again, the Time Room is not a cosmological aspect. It is just a room that’s built into a man made structure.


if you want to argue the pendulum room and the time room are different then that’s fine. I am not going to get caught up on that. What i said about the time room still stands. It is not a dimension.

Bro, the blog literally goes into-depth on how it’s a pocket dimension and it being a room in Kami’s lookout does not contradict that. Since there’s things like the Room of Spirit and Time are accessed the same way. You’re asserting that it isn’t a pocket dimension, but not addressing the arguments toward it being one in the first place.

The Pendulm Room and Time Room being different is something that was already addressed and in the blog too. So, now I’m starting to think you just have not read into the blogs.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Bro, the blog literally goes into-depth on how it’s a pocket dimension and it being a room in Kami’s lookout does not contradict that. Since there’s things like the Room of Spirit and Time are accessed the same way. You’re asserting that it isn’t a pocket dimension, but not addressing the arguments toward it being one in the first place.

And the episode shows a literal room. It is not a pocket dimension. Mr. Popo and Goku just walk into it like a normal room. Mr. Pop, activates it and a portal appears in the room and Goku goes through the portal.

The Room of Spirit and Time has actual evidence that it is a dimension and statements. The Time Room does not.

Also where does it say in the blog that the tome room is a pocket dimension, because I don’t see it.

 

[Robo432343]

neutral

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

BUMPing this back up.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

BUMPing this back up.