Dragon My Balls Through Broken Glass [DBH Downgrades, Continued]

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

what part of she wanted to leave only one timescroll and erase all the other timescroll which would also include timescrolls with non existent history you are not getting

She wanted to do that, yes, but that doesn't mean she could do it. You're looking at a feat that is logically impossible (erasing the history of a place with no history) and deciding it's valid solely because a character wanted to do it. They don't actually do it, they just want to. That's a very weak basis that should not overwrite the inherent absurdity of the feat.

 

[segetero]

That's not how that works at all. If they are erasing history, then why would we assume that that extends to history that does not exist without explicit confirmation? If the goal is to leave only one history, then you wouldn't even have to affect locations with nonexistent history, since they wouldn't be included in the various histories that exist to begin with (because history doesn't exist).

Like, I do not know how to explain that being able to erase something does not mean you can also erase the absence of that thing by default. You would need actual feats of doing that, which DBH lacks.

The Demon realm was erased.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Demon realm was erased.

Cool, this should work. I'd appreciate it if a source was given so I could check the context, but this should be added to the Time Power page since it's literally the only concrete evidence of nonexistence erasure there is.

 

[segetero]

Cool, this should work. I'd appreciate it if a source was given so I could check the context, but this should be added to the Time Power page since it's literally the only concrete evidence of nonexistence erasure there is.

I’m not a scan expert; I’m just doing my best, and a lot of these scans are spread thin throughout many profiles. You should probably ask @Dagoth_OwO.

 

[Killerdrone123]

The Demon realm was erased.

I am just gonna clear this chronoa did this using her time power sealing not via erasure but it more so proves that time power users can affect non existent histories and timescrolls which further proves aeos can affect non existent time scrolls

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I am just gonna clear this chronoa did this using her time power sealing not via erasure but it more so proves that time power users can affect non existent histories and timescrolls which further proves aeos can affect non existent time scrolls

Oh, if it's through sealing then disregard everything I said. This is explicitly about nonexistence erasure. Also, sealing a place without history is no more impressive than regular sealing, so it hardly bears mentioning; Acausal beings have no innate resistance to sealing, after all.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Oh, if it's through sealing then disregard everything I said. This is explicitly about nonexistence erasure. Also, sealing a place without history is no more impressive than regular sealing, so it hardly bears mentioning; Acausal beings have no innate resistance to sealing, after all.

How to even seal a nonexistence history you need to show interacting with it first my point more so proves that they can interact with such non existent histories and timescrolls

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

How to even seal a nonexistence history you need to show interacting with it first

I never said they couldn't interact with it. I'm saying there's nothing proving they can erase it. Sealing and EE are two very, very different things; Sealing a being devoid of time is not difficult, and beings devoid of time are not resistant to being sealed. They are, however, effectively immune to being erased from time. So claiming they can be sealed is fine, but claiming they can be erased from time requires far more evidence. Do you understand that?

 

[Killerdrone123]

I never said they couldn't interact with it. I'm saying there's nothing proving they can erase it. Sealing and EE are two very, very different things; Sealing a being devoid of time is not difficult, and beings devoid of time are not resistant to being sealed. They are, however, effectively immune to being erased from time. So claiming they can be sealed is fine, but claiming they can be erased from time requires far more evidence. Do you understand that?

Yeah this supports my previous point of aeos capable of erasing all of timescrolls since I have proved that they can interact with them to I don't know what makes you think that she can't do it when we have statements that she can erase all of time scrolls

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah this supports my previous point of aeos capable of erasing all of timescrolls since I have proved that they can interact with them to I don't know what makes you think that she can't do it when we have statements that she can erase all of time scrolls

Being able to interact with something does not mean you can erase it. Hell, being able to interact with the Demon Realm isn't even any harder than normal; It just lacks a history, and isn't like a void or whatever. So being able to seal, destroy, or do whatever to it is just as easy as it is for the rest of existence. The only exception is with affecting that history, because it doesn't exist; So, just because a character can do something that is logically very easy to do (ie; seal the Demon Realm) does not mean they can do something that is logically impossible (ie; erase history in a realm that lacks history).

 

[Killerdrone123]

Being able to interact with something does not mean you can erase it. Hell, being able to interact with the Demon Realm isn't even any harder than normal; It just lacks a history, and isn't like a void or whatever. So being able to seal, destroy, or do whatever to it is just as easy as it is for the rest of existence. The only exception is with affecting that history, because it doesn't exist; So, just because a character can do something that is logically very easy to do (ie; seal the Demon Realm) does not mean they can do something that is logically impossible (ie; erase history in a realm that lacks history).

So you are gonna just ignore the point I said that timescrolls contain non existent history and aeos was gonna erase all of the timescrolls since there is no reason why this could not be possible since they can already interact with nonexistence idk what makes you think she wouldn't be able to do that

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So you are gonna just ignore the point I said that timescrolls contain non existent history and aeos was gonna erase all of the timescrolls since there is no reason why this could not be possible since they can already interact with nonexistence idk what makes you think she wouldn't be able to do that

Well your first mistake is assuming that interacting with the Demon Realm is any harder than normal. It just lacks history. That's it. That is acausality and doesn't make the entire realm a void or anything, so physically interacting with it is easy.

Your second mistake is assuming that a character saying they are going to do something that is logically impossible is an indicator that they can actually do that thing. Look, here's an example: "I am going to fly to the edge of the universe". I said I'm going to do it, so that means I can do it, right? Well obviously not, so unless I can actually prove I can do that, then it's just bullshit. It's the same for Aeos.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

him?

DBH supporters will have to get in line. DMC supporters still haven't tried to kill me like they said they would~

That's because they have an actual life and things to do

 

[Killerdrone123]

Well your first mistake is assuming that interacting with the Demon Realm is any harder than normal. It just lacks history. That's it. That is acausality and doesn't make the entire realm a void or anything, so physically interacting with it is easy.

Your second mistake is assuming that a character saying they are going to do something that is logically impossible is an indicator that they can actually do that thing. Look, here's an example: "I am going to fly to the edge of the universe". I said I'm going to do it, so that means I can do it, right? Well obviously not, so unless I can actually prove I can do that, then it's just bullshit. It's the same for Aeos.

Well your first mistake is assuming that interacting with the Demon Realm is any harder than normal. It just lacks history. That's it. That is acausality and doesn't make the entire realm a void or anything, so physically interacting with it is easy.

Your second mistake is assuming that a character saying they are going to do something that is logically impossible is an indicator that they can actually do that thing. Look, here's an example: "I am going to fly to the edge of the universe". I said I'm going to do it, so that means I can do it, right? Well obviously not, so unless I can actually prove I can do that, then it's just bullshit. It's the same for Aeos.

"Tells she is gonna destroy all time scrolls "

"Shown destroying time scrolls "

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"Tells she is gonna destroy all time scrolls "

"Shown destroying time scrolls "

That is not my point and you know it. Erasing time is easy, and is clearly demonstrated when erasing regular Time Scrolls. However, erasing time when there is no time to erase is substantially more difficult. You can't just say "well they erased time, so obviously they can erase time that doesn't exist!", because that's a wild assumption with 0 evidence backing it. So unless she demonstrably erases something devoid of time - which as far as I'm aware, she hasn't - then we have no reason to assume she can.

 

[Damage3245]

The OP looks fine to me.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Instead of FRAing the thread, can you at least wait for the supporters? That's the least y'all could do. We aren't asking for much.

 

[Damage3245]

Instead of FRAing the thread, can you at least wait for the supporters? That's the least y'all could do. We aren't asking for much.

Just because we give an initial vote doesn't mean we won't change that vote after there's been more discussion on the thread.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Just because we give an initial vote doesn't mean we won't change that vote after there's been more discussion on the thread.

I've been here long enough to know this isn't the case 99% of the time, especially when it comes to controversial verses like Dragon Ball.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I agree with OP

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I will await for more opinions.

 

[DivineAura44]

I've been here long enough to know this isn't the case 99% of the time, especially when it comes to controversial verses like Dragon Ball.

Ottavio gonna have a Kukui moment

 

[TurtleGod55]

That title is so cringe bro I’m sorry gotta break character for that one. but anyways continue

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Man there's a lot of stuff to respond to. Let's see what I can respond to with my limited time

Time Energy etc

Energy isn't a broad term really, especially when the Elder Kai very clearly uses the katakana for energy (エネルギー or "Enerugī"). This seems to be more of a case of you assuming that the Elder Kai for some odd reason isn't using the term energy literally here despite him giving a very clear explanation of how Tokitoki's egg functions. That + Towa's statement + Mira using Tokitoki's egg to greatly empower himself screams of actual energy to me. Also, Time Power is specifically Tokitoki's power so this power or energy or whatever you want to call it that Tokitoki uses to create time is infact his Time Power

Time Power or "Time God's Power" is what is used to cast space-time attacks in the first place. Tldr; Chronoa used her remaining Time Power to seal Mechikabura in the Time Labyrinth, a space-time technique (Which can also freeze people in time), Towa refers to it as the Time God's power and Fu later states that the Time God's power isn't limited to just freezing time. Aios using an energy blast to cast Freeze which is a Time Power space-time attack is quite clear proof that they can mix their space-time techniques with their energy when all the pieces of the puzzle are put together

The Time Scrolls can quite explictly use space-time techniques like the Time Restoration which even the Elder Kai referred to as the true power of Tokitoki, and again, Time Power is the true power of Tokitoki as shown with the Hyper God Bird ability which amps your allies with Tokitoki's power which is Time Power. Not to mention the fact that the Time Power Unleashed state is a form that very specifically unleashes all the Time Power that the user possesses so absorbing any other source of power would literally do nothing to obtain the form. The simple fact that Time Scrolls can perform Time Power space-time techniques is already pretty clear proof that they have Time Power, and Demigra using it to obtain a state which specifically requires Time Power is just icing on the cake

Sealing

First off, the Eternal Labyrinth is specifically a Time Power technique. While the other powers did amplify the Keysword obviously, it doesn't change the fact that a Time Power ability was the one that actually did the job on Mechikabura

Secondly, why are you mixing the Time Labyrinth with the Eternal Labyrinth? The Time Labyrinth (時の迷宮) and the Eternal Labyrinth (永遠の迷宮) are two different space-time sealing techniques entirely and only the Time Labyrinth actually seals the opponent in the Crack of Time. The Eternal Labyrinth is never mentioned to seal someone in the Crack of Time.

Nonexistence Erasure

In context, the Nonexistent history is among the false histories which Aios was planning to remove and which was in a Time Scroll that she was also planning to destroy. This notion that she supposedly can't erase it despite being completely aware of the realm (She picked up Bardock from that realm) and being very specific about wanting to erase the false histories (Which the nonexistent history is) is basically the same shit people used (and still use) to downplay Cell's 4-B claim. Hell, she was even mere moments away from erasing the scrolls if she weren't stopped. And this is still ignoring the glaring contradiction the nonexistent history surviving would create to Aios' plan for a single true history. The CC history was deemed the true history so Aios not erasing the nonexistent history would mean that there'd be two histories still around if Aios' plan were to succeed so this argument that Aios wasn't going to get rid of the nonexistent history is contradictary to her goals regardless of how you put it

Tldr; not doing it =/= being unable to do it

The rest I might do later. I have work to do.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

That title is so cringe bro I’m sorry gotta break character for that one. but anyways continue

Like deadass spit my drink when i saw that title

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Sealing

First off, the Eternal Labyrinth is specifically a Time Power technique. While the other powers did amplify the Keysword obviously, it doesn't change the fact that a Time Power ability was the one that actually did the job on Mechikabura

I'm aware of that. I'm asking why a technique that you're admitting was performed under an amp is being scaled to everyone. Time Power has no indication of being that potent by itself, and the Time Power page should not present it in that way.

Secondly, why are you mixing the Time Labyrinth with the Eternal Labyrinth? The Time Labyrinth (時の迷宮) and the Eternal Labyrinth (永遠の迷宮) are two different space-time sealing techniques entirely and only the Time Labyrinth actually seals the opponent in the Crack of Time. The Eternal Labyrinth is never mentioned to seal someone in the Crack of Time.

That's on me, yeah. I can remove the second part and just keep it to the first point, since I still believe it being done under an amp should, at the very least, be noted on the Time Power page.

Nonexistence Erasure

In context, the Nonexistent history is among the false histories which Aios was planning to remove and which was in a Time Scroll that she was also planning to destroy. This notion that she supposedly can't erase it despite being completely aware of the realm (She picked up Bardock from that realm) and being very specific about wanting to erase the false histories (Which the nonexistent history is) is basically the same shit people used (and still use) to downplay Cell's 4-B claim. Hell, she was even mere moments away from erasing the scrolls if she weren't stopped. And this is still ignoring the glaring contradiction the nonexistent history surviving would create to Aios' plan for a single true history. The CC history was deemed the true history so Aios not erasing the nonexistent history would mean that there'd be two histories still around if Aios' plan were to succeed so this argument that Aios wasn't going to get rid of the nonexistent history is contradictary to her goals regardless of how you put it

Tldr; not doing it =/= being unable to do it

First of all, the idea of deleting all histories and only leaving one would, of course, only extend to things that are considered "history" to begin with. The Demon Realm would obviously be excluded from that, seeing as it doesn't have any history to erase. Saying that there'd be two histories left if the Demon Realm was left is contradictory to its history being nonexistent, which is the basis for nonexistence erasure to begin with; If it has history, then it's not really nonexistent, and if it doesn't, then it wouldn't be counted among the histories needing to be erased. Also, the first scan just shows a random scroll and not the specific scroll containing the Demon Realm, so is there more context behind that scan I'm missing?

Time Energy etc

Energy isn't a broad term really, especially when the Elder Kai very clearly uses the katakana for energy (エネルギー or "Enerugī"). This seems to be more of a case of you assuming that the Elder Kai for some odd reason isn't using the term energy literally here despite him giving a very clear explanation of how Tokitoki's egg functions. That + Towa's statement + Mira using Tokitoki's egg to greatly empower himself screams of actual energy to me. Also, Time Power is specifically Tokitoki's power so this power or energy or whatever you want to call it that Tokitoki uses to create time is infact his Time Power

It's much broader in the context of there being multiple kinds of energy, even within Dragon Ball, so it seems very odd to assume "oh, this must be Time Power" when there's nothing even really implying that to be the case. Of course, characters can use things that aren't energy in order to empower themselves, so your second point doesn't seem particularly relevant. The scans for Tokitoki's power being Time Power kinda bother me a little bit. For starters, the first scan makes no real mention of Time Power, energy, or what have you (just "the power of Tokitoki", which is quite vague), while the latter scan is Tokitoki bestowing Time Power unto people. I do not think this sets a precedent for everything Tokitoki does tying back to Time Power; As explained in the OP, Tokitoki can in fact do things indepdent of Time Power's effects (as shown with them sealing the GoD's powers with their ki), so I think extrapolating this minimal context into Tokitoki's eggs containing Time Power itself is unreasonable.

Time Power or "Time God's Power" is what is used to cast space-time attacks in the first place. Tldr; Chronoa used her remaining Time Power to seal Mechikabura in the Time Labyrinth, a space-time technique (Which can also freeze people in time), Towa refers to it as the Time God's power and Fu later states that the Time God's power isn't limited to just freezing time. Aios using an energy blast to cast Freeze which is a Time Power space-time attack is quite clear proof that they can mix their space-time techniques with their energy when all the pieces of the puzzle are put together

Well the first part is fine, but I take issue with everything else. Aios using Freeze as an energy blast is fine, but 1. This doesn't seem to be a universal property of Time Power techniques, and appears to just be how Freeze is used, 2. We don't really see Time Power's other effects, like EE, take place when characters hit each other with energy blasts (even for attacks specifically delivering the effects of Time Power), and 3. I haven't seen an example of anyone but Aios using Time Power via energy blasts, which makes me question if it's a universal property of the power.

The Time Scrolls can quite explictly use space-time techniques like the Time Restoration which even the Elder Kai referred to as the true power of Tokitoki, and again, Time Power is the true power of Tokitoki as shown with the Hyper God Bird ability which amps your allies with Tokitoki's power which is Time Power. Not to mention the fact that the Time Power Unleashed state is a form that very specifically unleashes all the Time Power that the user possesses so absorbing any other source of power would literally do nothing to obtain the form. The simple fact that Time Scrolls can perform Time Power space-time techniques is already pretty clear proof that they have Time Power, and Demigra using it to obtain a state which specifically requires Time Power is just icing on the cake

The very first scan involves Chronoa using her own Time Power, so I wouldn't really attribute that to the Time Scroll. The second scan has a similar issue, in that Chronoa outright states that Tokitoki's power was not the sole factor. So the fact that Time Scrolls explicitly need outside sources to provide Time Power for it to use Time Power techniques serves as a huge anti-feat to them being manifestations of Time Power.

 

[Theglassman12]

I was told to close this thread by the OP themselves and would come back to this when their situation has been settled.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Revive.

 

[TurtleGod55]

Revive.

Nah we dead

 

[CloverDragon03]

Since it’s been a hot minute, I’d like to get this moving. What are the current conclusions, if any? And what still needs to be discussed?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Revive.

--->

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Since it’s been a hot minute, I’d like to get this moving. What are the current conclusions, if any? And what still needs to be discussed?

@Maverick_Zero_X and @Damage3245 agree with the proposals listed in the OP. @Dagoth_OwO made a response to several points here, which I replied to here, and that's about where we left off. Aside from that, no conclusions have been made.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Well now that I've had time to go through the whole post I'll try to respond to all points

Existence Erasure

The Ziku World and Janemba parts need to be removed, as they were agreed to be invalid for informational/conceptual EE in the previous thread.

Not sure why they weren't removed in the previous thread but you're correct on this

Power Nullification

There's no need to specify that Time Power negates power bestowal and statistics amplification. It's very redundant.

Tbf, there's nothing particularly wrong with being more specific, but I won't oppose to this

Non-Physical Interaction

Why the hell is invisibility listed when you don't even need NPI for that lol

That aside... The vast majority of Time Power's NPI (save for the illusion/energy bit) stems from scaling to Ki, which isn't how NPI works. They're both energy sources, yes, but they do different things, and you can't really cross-scale hax like that. This ultimately doesn't impact the verse's NPI, since Ki does have legitimate NPI and everyone can use Ki, but these things ought to be removed from the Time Power page seeing as they actually belong to a completely separate power. Also, nuking/creating a timeline doesn't give you NPI for everything in that timeline, cmon now.

Pretty sure the biggest reason for NPI's state in the page is because regular Ki back then didn't actually have its own page so the feats had to be put somewhere to avoid confusion. Although now that the page does exist, there's no need to repeat things ig. Although if were talking about Time Power NPI feats specifically then I'd consider the Nonexistent history's (or even the Demon Realms') shenanigans to be placed in the section

Resistance to Chaos Ball

It's assumed that the Universe Tree resists Mechikabura's Chaos Ball (the black hole that sucked up the whole comsology) because it had absorbed Tokitoki and a fair amount of Dark Factor, and therefore had enough Time Power/Dark Factor to resist such effects. Uh... one problem though. Tokitoki got absorbed. As did multiple characters who have access to Dark Factor. They didn't resist shit, so the Universe Tree inheriting their resistances is meaningless. There's no reason why this should be an "extreme" resistance, either.

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here. The resistance comes from resisting both the Dark Factor & Time Power, not just one power individually. Of course Tokitoki doesn't resist it because he doesn't resist both powers, just one of them. The same with the others (Not sure who you're referring to with "multiple characters who have access to the Dark Factor"). Although the "extreme" part is kinda redundant, on that I agree

Resistance to Immortality & Regeneration Negation

No actual justification is given for this beyond the page saying it "should be able to" resist these effects. If there is no actual reason for this assumption, remove it. In a similar vein, while the EE resistance is valid, the mentions of "should be able to resist its own erasure power" ought to be removed as well.

Fair enough

Regeneration (Low-Mid)

Nothing in this scan showcases regeneration

For context, the Vegitos cut a huge hole in the Universe Tree and in the scan you posted, the tree had already started regenerating the wound

I'm aware of that. I'm asking why a technique that you're admitting was performed under an amp is being scaled to everyone. Time Power has no indication of being that potent by itself, and the Time Power page should not present it in that way.

Well long as it's addressed in Trunks' or the Awakened Keysword's page, I suppose that's fine then

First of all, the idea of deleting all histories and only leaving one would, of course, only extend to things that are considered "history" to begin with. The Demon Realm would obviously be excluded from that, seeing as it doesn't have any history to erase. Saying that there'd be two histories left if the Demon Realm was left is contradictory to its history being nonexistent, which is the basis for nonexistence erasure to begin with; If it has history, then it's not really nonexistent, and if it doesn't, then it wouldn't be counted among the histories needing to be erased. Also, the first scan just shows a random scroll and not the specific scroll containing the Demon Realm, so is there more context behind that scan I'm missing?

Ummmmm not sure why this switched to the Demon Realm. Anyways, I'm referring to the literal nonexistent history (存在しない歴史) which is also contained in a Time Scroll. In context, the first scan is Aios stating that she'll erase all the false histories and all their scrolls (except the CC history scroll) which would include the scroll containing the nonexistent history since it's considered a false history that Aios doesn't want around. The point is that Aios is attempting to get rid of all the unnecessary false histories and the literal nonexistent history would be one of them. Hell, if anything, it being a literal nonexistent history is even more of a reason to consider it a false history since it's not even a proper history with its own flow of events but instead a completely nonexistent history, so Aios randomly sparing it and its Time Scroll would still be a major contradiction to her plan for a single "true" history (which was the CC history). Additionally, Time Power Unleashed Demigra's Chaotic Gigantes EE blast was actually going to erase everything in the cosmology so the nonexistent history & Demon Realm too would get erased regardless with a cosmology wipe, so this would probably be even better than Aios' shenanigans frankly speaking

It's much broader in the context of there being multiple kinds of energy, even within Dragon Ball, so it seems very odd to assume "oh, this must be Time Power" when there's nothing even really implying that to be the case. Of course, characters can use things that aren't energy in order to empower themselves, so your second point doesn't seem particularly relevant. The scans for Tokitoki's power being Time Power kinda bother me a little bit. For starters, the first scan makes no real mention of Time Power, energy, or what have you (just "the power of Tokitoki", which is quite vague), while the latter scan is Tokitoki bestowing Time Power unto people. I do not think this sets a precedent for everything Tokitoki does tying back to Time Power; As explained in the OP, Tokitoki can in fact do things indepdent of Time Power's effects (as shown with them sealing the GoD's powers with their ki), so I think extrapolating this minimal context into Tokitoki's eggs containing Time Power itself is unreasonable.

The scans in the album are connected to each other. They're from the same post explaining the funtions of the "new" Hyper God Bird ability of the Time Bird. The first scan tells that the new evolved Hyper God Bird ability (which amps your allies) contains the power of Tokitoki while the second scan is a direct continuation of the first scan, explaining that the same Hyper God Bird ability that contains the power of Tokitoki actually amps your allies with Time Power. So in context, "the power of Tokitoki" contained in the Hyper God Bird ability that amps your allies is directly referring to Time Power. My point is that Time Power is pretty much Tokitoki's main power especially when it comes to time related shenanigans so when it comes to Tokitoki's eggs, Time Power is the most likely conclusion when considering the fact that it's his main power which he uses to manipulate time.

Also there is a giant elephant in the room which I need to address. If Tokitoki's GoD sealing feat is treated as a feat of regular Ki in the future, then this would grant regular Ki full on Power Null rather than just limited since Beerus is actually stronger than Tokitoki as Whis even clarified that Beerus actually nearly killed Tokitoki/Time itself with that casual energy beam of his before, obviously making him quite a lot stronger than Tokitoki

Well the first part is fine, but I take issue with everything else. Aios using Freeze as an energy blast is fine, but 1. This doesn't seem to be a universal property of Time Power techniques, and appears to just be how Freeze is used, 2. We don't really see Time Power's other effects, like EE, take place when characters hit each other with energy blasts (even for attacks specifically delivering the effects of Time Power), and 3. I haven't seen an example of anyone but Aios using Time Power via energy blasts, which makes me question if it's a universal property of the power.

It is just one of many ways Freeze can be used, they can choose how to cast it like with a snap of their fingers or their energy as I showed. As for EE, Time Power Unleashed Demigra's Chaotic Gigantes energy blast which he was going to use to erase the cast & everything is very explicitly confirmed to be amped by Time Power, plus Demigra's statement about erasing them with Time Power specifically. It's really just a matter of whether they choose to include those effects in their energy or not as they obviously have basic control over their energy. It's the same concept like with other types of energy such as the Energy of Destruction that can passively erase anything it simply touches but neither Frieza nor 17 were erased by being in contact with it because Toppo wasn't actually trying to erase them and basically just turned the EE effect of his energy/aura off (it's also the reason why his aura doesn't just erase the floor beneath him and he doesn't fall off from the arena). It all boils down to energy control which pretty much every character in DB has. Well like I said, Demigra's another example of TP's universal properties and he's actually the least experienced with the power and in general when compared to Aios, Chronoa, Tokitoki or Mechikabura

The very first scan involves Chronoa using her own Time Power, so I wouldn't really attribute that to the Time Scroll. The second scan has a similar issue, in that Chronoa outright states that Tokitoki's power was not the sole factor. So the fact that Time Scrolls explicitly need outside sources to provide Time Power for it to use Time Power techniques serves as a huge anti-feat to them being manifestations of Time Power.

In context, Chronoa is the one who creates Time Scrolls with her power so it is her power technically being used when they used a Time Scroll for restoration. As for the second scan, the Elder Kai is just saying that it's because how Chronoa raised Tokitoki properly that her "power" helped. It's not power in the literal sense, it's just how she raised the bird properly so it became that strong (also the second scan was just to further show Time Restoration as a space-time technique and it's Tokitoki solely doing the ability, not the scrolls)

Greater Time Power does not demonstrate greater hax potency.

Ummm yes? This was already taken care of in the Hax Layer Evaluation thread. Glass and I discussed it and it was concluded that there wasn't enough proof for this so it's not included in the final result of the current number of layers. Same with resistances, they don't come from "greater TP resists weaker TP" they come from feats and statements of resisting their own space-time abilities and other characters overcoming those resistances. Of course, if there's some parts I missed to remove in the Time Power page when adding the layers then that's my bad, but I just wanted to clarify that the "greater TP means more layers & resistances" isn't the reasoning for the current layers at all.

Not sure if I missed something so feel free to point out if I missed anything

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll be able to respond to this later.

 

[deonment]

For context, the Vegitos cut a huge hole in the Universe Tree and in the scan you posted, the tree had already started regenerating the wound

Agree with this staying then, though this should just be a part of the album that has the regen in it, cause otherwise it doesn't look legit

Additionally, Time Power Unleashed Demigra's Chaotic Gigantes EE blast was actually going to erase everything in the cosmology so the nonexistent history & Demon Realm too would get erased regardless with a cosmology wipe, so this would probably be even better than Aios' shenanigans frankly speaking

This does just make it explicit to me yeah, so this can stay as well

My position on whether or not Time Power hax can be channeled through the user's ki blasts is neutral, leaning to disagree with the OP with the stuff Dagoth has provided
Neutral on the Time Scroll stuff also

 

[CloverDragon03]

@Maverick_Zero_X and @Damage3245 agree with the proposals listed in the OP. @Dagoth_OwO made a response to several points here, which I replied to here, and that's about where we left off. Aside from that, no conclusions have been made.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Whenever you get the chance, could you check out the OP of this thread along with the posts linked in the above message, and give your opinions on the thread?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Arise

Fixed

 

[Javenplayz253]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/youtube/images/9/93/Panchitomatrix.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20181216142815

I'm pretty sure LOTS of people are going to kill you for this but anyways
Agree

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Pretty sure the biggest reason for NPI's state in the page is because regular Ki back then didn't actually have its own page so the feats had to be put somewhere to avoid confusion. Although now that the page does exist, there's no need to repeat things ig. Although if were talking about Time Power NPI feats specifically then I'd consider the Nonexistent history's (or even the Demon Realms') shenanigans to be placed in the section

Alright, fair enough. However, I'm not sure about the nonexistent history section being added - it's not like the Demon Realm is incorporeal and unable to be physically touched just because it lacks history. Many acausal characters also lack history, but they still have physical bodies, so I don't think Time Power would even need NPI to affect the Demon Realm? The only thing that'd apply is the nonexistence erasure (assuming that stays), but that could just stay in its own section ngl.

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here. The resistance comes from resisting both the Dark Factor & Time Power, not just one power individually. Of course Tokitoki doesn't resist it because he doesn't resist both powers, just one of them. The same with the others (Not sure who you're referring to with "multiple characters who have access to the Dark Factor"). Although the "extreme" part is kinda redundant, on that I agree

The problem is that the sole explanation for the Universe Tree resisting the Chaos Ball is because it had Dark Factor and Time Power. So, if neither of those abilities grant resistance to the Chaos Ball - which they don't, you can see that on their respective pages - then what exactly is the basis for the Universe Tree resisting it?

For context, the Vegitos cut a huge hole in the Universe Tree and in the scan you posted, the tree had already started regenerating the wound

Yeah, that's fine then. I'll remove it from the OP.

Well long as it's addressed in Trunks' or the Awakened Keysword's page, I suppose that's fine then

Yeah, it can go on the Awakened Keysword's page.

Ummmmm not sure why this switched to the Demon Realm. Anyways, I'm referring to the literal nonexistent history (存在しない歴史) which is also contained in a Time Scroll. In context, the first scan is Aios stating that she'll erase all the false histories and all their scrolls (except the CC history scroll) which would include the scroll containing the nonexistent history since it's considered a false history that Aios doesn't want around. The point is that Aios is attempting to get rid of all the unnecessary false histories and the literal nonexistent history would be one of them. Hell, if anything, it being a literal nonexistent history is even more of a reason to consider it a false history since it's not even a proper history with its own flow of events but instead a completely nonexistent history, so Aios randomly sparing it and its Time Scroll would still be a major contradiction to her plan for a single "true" history (which was the CC history).

This just wraps back around to the problem I keep bringing up, though. The Demon Realm doesn't have history, so it being considered a "false history" is fallacious, because it'd imply that it does have some history. You cannot define a location by a lack of something, and then lump it in with locations that are defined by the presence of that thing. It'd be like if a villain said "I'm going to destroy every country with a mountain in it, including the countries that don't have mountains!". It just doesn't make any sense.

Additionally, Time Power Unleashed Demigra's Chaotic Gigantes EE blast was actually going to erase everything in the cosmology so the nonexistent history & Demon Realm too would get erased regardless with a cosmology wipe, so this would probably be even better than Aios' shenanigans frankly speaking

That's fine then, but this yet again runs into the issue of "why are we scaling this to everyone?" due to how Time Power Unleashed Demigra is very explicitly stronger than most other Time Power users, even those with their own Time Power Unleashed forms (at least I assume so, if his VSBW page is accurate, which I hope it is). There's this persistent issue where you want to treat Time Power as this all-encompassing energy source, but also want to scale all of its applications to every user when that is very explicitly not how we treat energy sources on this wiki.

The scans in the album are connected to each other. They're from the same post explaining the funtions of the "new" Hyper God Bird ability of the Time Bird. The first scan tells that the new evolved Hyper God Bird ability (which amps your allies) contains the power of Tokitoki while the second scan is a direct continuation of the first scan, explaining that the same Hyper God Bird ability that contains the power of Tokitoki actually amps your allies with Time Power. So in context, "the power of Tokitoki" contained in the Hyper God Bird ability that amps your allies is directly referring to Time Power. My point is that Time Power is pretty much Tokitoki's main power especially when it comes to time related shenanigans so when it comes to Tokitoki's eggs, Time Power is the most likely conclusion when considering the fact that it's his main power which he uses to manipulate time.

I uh, think you missed the point a little bit. I'm not saying that Tokitoki can't bestow Time Power or that it doesn't use it a lot, but I'm saying that we can't just assume that anything and everything related to Tokitoki is a consequence of Time Power and then scale it to everyone. That Tokitoki has its own unique physiology as a Time Bird and evidently has Ki to some extent shows that yes, it's very possible to separate Tokitoki's powers from Time Power (even if there is a lot of overlap). All of this is to say that this whole paragraph still does not prove that "energy" devoid of context = Time Power.

Also there is a giant elephant in the room which I need to address. If Tokitoki's GoD sealing feat is treated as a feat of regular Ki in the future, then this would grant regular Ki full on Power Null rather than just limited since Beerus is actually stronger than Tokitoki as Whis even clarified that Beerus actually nearly killed Tokitoki/Time itself with that casual energy beam of his before, obviously making him quite a lot stronger than Tokitoki

No? Why on earth would we scale this to absolutely everyone in the verse, and not just the one character who showcased this specific feat? Like I said before, this trend of scaling everybody on the basis of "well this one guy did it so everyone else should be able to do it too" needs to stop.

It is just one of many ways Freeze can be used, they can choose how to cast it like with a snap of their fingers or their energy as I showed. As for EE, Time Power Unleashed Demigra's Chaotic Gigantes energy blast which he was going to use to erase the cast & everything is very explicitly confirmed to be amped by Time Power, plus Demigra's statement about erasing them with Time Power specifically. It's really just a matter of whether they choose to include those effects in their energy or not as they obviously have basic control over their energy. It's the same concept like with other types of energy such as the Energy of Destruction that can passively erase anything it simply touches but neither Frieza nor 17 were erased by being in contact with it because Toppo wasn't actually trying to erase them and basically just turned the EE effect of his energy/aura off (it's also the reason why his aura doesn't just erase the floor beneath him and he doesn't fall off from the arena). It all boils down to energy control which pretty much every character in DB has. Well like I said, Demigra's another example of TP's universal properties and he's actually the least experienced with the power and in general when compared to Aios, Chronoa, Tokitoki or Mechikabura

I mean that's just an energy blast that erases people from existence. I think extending that to every single application of Time Power all at once requires significantly more evidence than "well this one guy used a Time Power blast to do EE once". Although this doesn't really solve the issue of passive EE - characters who are claimed to possess passive Time Power, even when that Time Power is obviously affecting other characters around them, do not erase people from existence. Goku and Fu would've killed a lot of people if that was the case.

In context, Chronoa is the one who creates Time Scrolls with her power so it is her power technically being used when they used a Time Scroll for restoration. As for the second scan, the Elder Kai is just saying that it's because how Chronoa raised Tokitoki properly that her "power" helped. It's not power in the literal sense, it's just how she raised the bird properly so it became that strong (also the second scan was just to further show Time Restoration as a space-time technique and it's Tokitoki solely doing the ability, not the scrolls)

I mean, the first point doesn't really change anything. Chronoa still needs to provide her Time Power for the Time Scrolls to like. actually do anything, so using that feat as a basis is still faulty.

Ummm yes? This was already taken care of in the Hax Layer Evaluation thread. Glass and I discussed it and it was concluded that there wasn't enough proof for this so it's not included in the final result of the current number of layers. Same with resistances, they don't come from "greater TP resists weaker TP" they come from feats and statements of resisting their own space-time abilities and other characters overcoming those resistances. Of course, if there's some parts I missed to remove in the Time Power page when adding the layers then that's my bad, but I just wanted to clarify that the "greater TP means more layers & resistances" isn't the reasoning for the current layers at all.

In that case, the resistance tabber on the Time Power page should just be deleted (because the only justification for it is "having more Time Power means you can resist lesser Time Power", which seems to have already been deemed invalid) and the relevant profiles should have a resistance to Time Power in the appropriate keys.